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POU /ERU under fire
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Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »According to some of the papers today members of the INLA were involved in Jobstown.
I am not at all surprised at that, very coincidental that the week before SF were under pressure in The Dail about moving sexual offenders from the North to the South and as usual no information was given.
Mary Lou creates a farcical situation in the National Parliament and then surprise surprise the following weekend this happens the Tanaiste.
Also quite a lot of Irish flags popping up at Water Protests, why I wonder? Oh yes republicans of course.
SF are masters at this carry on.0 -
Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »I think the last few days is yet another example of how the enforcement of the law needs to be examined and discussed.
Taking a soft approach to law and order has at least 3 consequences -
Law abiding citizens begin to think that they are unsafe and under threat, leading to fear, particularly among the vulnerable such as the elderly. An extreme consequence of this is people begin to enforce the law themselves.
Criminals and trouble makers see opportunities in soft law enforcement, the likelihood of facing punishtment for a variety of crimes decreases. International gangs, particularly drug gangs see Ireland as a good place to carry out some operations.
The ordinary rank and file Gardai become under increased threat of harassment, assault and murder as criminals, both serious and petty, do not see them as a threat or as a symbol of law and order.
Im in favour of supporting the Gardai, but I take exceptional distaste to what you have written here, This type of attitude is the one that allows governments to enforce police states and tear down civil rights.
peddling the "fall of society" over hyping the extent of the extremism is all part of the narrative that allows these clampdowns.
The fact is Jobstown got out of hand, But its an isolated incident and no doubt the Gardai will examine the exact requirements for protecting ministers etc.
However we must be careful that responses are proportional to the broad situation, not a specific instance. remember " hard cases make bad law"0 -
Im in favour of supporting the Gardai, but I take exceptional distaste to what you have written here, This type of attitude is the one that allows governments to enforce police states and tear down civil rights.
peddling the "fall of society" over hyping the extent of the extremism is all part of the narrative that allows these clampdowns.
The fact is Jobstown got out of hand, But its an isolated incident and no doubt the Gardai will examine the exact requirements for protecting ministers etc.
However we must be careful that responses are proportional to the broad situation, not a specific instance. remember " hard cases make bad law"
How do you know it was an isolated incident?0 -
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/chief-superintendent-tells-court-garda%C3%AD-in-catch-22-policing-water-meter-protests-1.2013442Chief Superintendent tells court gardaí in ‘Catch 22’ policing water meter protests
A Chief Superintendent has told the High Court that locations where water meters were being installed were not public areas for the purpose of the Public Order Act, leaving gardaí with a difficulty when it came to policing protests.
Chief Super Fergus Healy was giving evidence in a hearing concerning three men alleged to have breached a High Court order not to go within 20 metres of contractors installing metres.
The attachment and committal (of fine or imprisonment) motion against a fourth man was struck out.
On November 5th, the High Court granted an order to a water meter installation contractor, establishing the 20-metre exclusion zone around locations where its workers were installing meters in Dublin City.
GMC Sierra Ltd, which had a contract to install meters at various locations in Dublin, had already secured injunctions preventing a number of individuals or anyone who had notice of the order from assaulting, intimidating or interfering with workers installing the meters.
The company secured the orders after its lawyers told the High Court that its workers had been harassed and threatened while installing meters in the Dublin 5 and Dublin 13 areas.
Lawyers for GMC Sierra last week moved contempt of court proceedings against four protesters on grounds that they allegedly breached the ‘20-metre order’ at locations in Dublin 7 and Dublin 13.
Jim O’Callaghan SC, for GMC Sierra, said breaches of the orders had continued and read into the record portions of an affidavit by an operations manager for GMC Sierra.
It stated that in the days and weeks following November 5th, GMC Sierra had planned to install 500 water meters in areas around Dublin but only 200 were installed.
A worker was allegedly struck by a van, a known protester ‘kneed a worker in the face’ and protesters breached the 20-metre safety zone, the affidavit alleged. It was not alleged that any of the three men, allegedly in breach of the order, had engaged in this violence.
Mr Justice Paul Gilligan gave the four respondents the opportunity to submit replying affidavits of their version of events and adjourned GMC Sierra’s attachment and committal motion until today.
Patrick McGrath SC, for the protesters, asked for an adjournment on the basis that his clients had not been able to secure legal aid.
The judge said he would consider an adjournment if, pending the adjournment, the four protesters gave an undertaking to comply with the 20-metre part of the order.
Mr McGrath consulted his clients and then told the court that the undertakings were not forthcoming.
He argued that the application against one of the men should be dropped as the legal paperwork was not in order. There was applause and cheering from the large crowd when the court agreed to strike it out.0 -
The events in Dublin City Centre on the evening of the "Big March" would now appear to suggest that Garda Senior Management have decided that the force will not act to uphold the constitutional rights of Law Abiding citizens.
I was both surprised and amazed to read the Irish Times account....
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sit-down-water-protest-causes-traffic-chaos-in-dublin-1.2033390Just after 2pm members of a group marching from the Garden of Remembrance in the north inner city, down O’Connell Street and on towards the main protest site at Merrion Square across the Liffey decided to stage a sit-down protest.
They blocked O’Connell Bridge in all directions in an action that forced the closure of O’Connell Street and large stretches of the north and south quays, with some of those involved using camping chairs.
The protesters stayed in situ for hours and made the usual busy Dublin evening rush-hour traffic even more chaotic due to the road closures and diversions that resulted from their actions. However, Senior Garda officers believed the group was trying to provoke a reaction from the force and they decided against deploying the public order unit to clear the junctions.
While the number of protesters on O’Connell Bridge and at some points along the quays gradually reduced in the afternoon and into last evening, a small group was still staging its sit-down protest late last night with gardaí continuing to stand off from it. The area was eventually cleared before 9pm.
Surely whichever Senior Garda Officer responsible for the decision to be "non-reactional" should at least be accountable enough to justify,to the Thousands of Non-Involved members of the Public who'se right to free passage through,and enjoyment of the City was denied for an unreasonably extended period of time.
To reveal that the Capitals City Centre was effectively shut down for 7 HOURS,simply because un-named "Senior Garda Officers" felt concerned at reacting to illegality and harassesment being carried out in full and open view on the Capital's Main Street is tantamount to acceptance that Garda Senior Management are no longer confident of their own force's ability to operate.
This is about as serious as it can get for Ireland as a democracy and it also poses very difficult questions for Garda Rank & File members,who surely deserve some form of actual Leadership as opposed to what can only be taken as an expression of open fear.
I believe that Commissioner O Sullivan urgently needs to address the Statement in the Irish Times article,either by confirming it as standing Garda Operational Policy going forward,OR by reiterating what Garda Policy ACTUALLY is at present.
The sense amongst ordinary,non-activist members of the population is now very definitely one of semi-abandonment,with the message from Senior Garda Management seemingly one of "You'll have to look out for yourself because we certainly won't be involving ourselves in assisting you".
I would be interested in hearing the views of front-line members themselves on the events of Wednesday afternoon/evening and it's lessons ?Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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I'm sure the senior management looked at the overall picture and the consequences of deployment to clear the junctions and what manpower was available at the time.
Remember, at the same time that the sit down was happening people were still trying to get past the barrier on Kildare St.0 -
There is also a lot of support for left wing politic parties and indeed more extremist left wing elements among the Gardai. It's not surprising that they world be reluctant to move against the protesters.
Of course if they continue to stand by the government will have to either order them to carry out actions or stand down.0 -
Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »There is also a lot of support for left wing politic parties and indeed more extremist left wing elements among the Gardai. It's not surprising that they world be reluctant to move against the protesters.
Of course if they continue to stand by the government will have to either order them to carry out actions or stand down.
Can I have some of what you are having?0 -
Can you imagine the pictures in the papers, the videos on youtube and the general commentry on "garda brutality" if the public order unit had moved in to clear the "peacefull protest" on O Connell bridge.
If I was a rank and file member of AGS I would be very hesitant to lay one finger on a member of the public. Your job and your livelihood is at risk. Senior management obviously now sh*t themselves at the thought of physical confrontation with "peacefull protesters". The vocal minority of Garda haters and bashers make most noise.
If the silent majority wish for AGS to take control they must be more vocal in their support for the gardai. The extreme groups who are looking to provoke reaction are setting the agenda in the media. Any guard who draws his baton is now automatically guilty of brutality.
Maybe the inconvienece caused to thousands of normal people on Wednesday by a group of gob****es might force the public reaction in support of AGS0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Can I have some of what you are having?
I'm just a bit wary when there has been issues with collusion that there wouldn't at least be some sympathies for protests driven in part by Sinn Fein and organisations like Eirigi, 32 CSM etc. and that might be clouding judgements.0 -
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Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »I'm just a bit wary when there has been issues with collusion that there wouldn't at least be some sympathies for protests driven in part by Sinn Fein and organisations like Eirigi, 32 CSM etc. and that might be clouding judgements.
I think you're mixing up your wings with your terrorist groups. There used to be support by some members of AGS for a Republican movement but I suspect this has waned in the last decade. On the other hand, I don't know many guards who would be left leaning at all. I'm not a member and obviously not speaking for the force as a whole but from what I've seen, they tend to be slightly right of center (except when it comes to travellers ;-))
That's not to say that some wouldn't agree with IW protesters but I don't think that had shown at all and I don't think it was the reason for the inaction last week.0 -
I guess too that the government don't want to be seen either to be telling the Gardai what to do as it would look like they're just trying to clamp down the protests.
I'm not against the protests, just don't think that people should be allowed to do what they like without being at least challenged on it.
Maybe the Gardai never received any complaints about the road blockages? I'm sure if enough people rang in they would have felt they had the support to do something or feel forced to do something.0 -
Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »I guess too that the government don't want to be seen either to be telling the Gardai what to do as it would look like they're just trying to clamp down the protests.
I'm not against the protests, just don't think that people should be allowed to do what they like without being at least challenged on it.
Maybe the Gardai never received any complaints about the road blockages? I'm sure if enough people rang in they would have felt they had the support to do something or feel forced to do something.
I'm in general agreement with your points Kiera Substantial Keypunch,and I can see some very worrying elements in your earlier post regarding the political leanings of Senior Garda Management in respect of last Wednesdays occurences.
It MUST be noted that the actual Protest March and Meeting was well underway and focused upon Dáil Éireann as it should have been,however,the challenge to Garda Authority and to the greater Public right to free and unfettered passage was a totally seperate set of events,and merited a similar response.
I strongly suggest that the post-march sit-down protests were easily predictable, (Myself and some colleagues had discussed that probability during our lunch break the previous Saturday).
I would also suggest that such an occurence,would/should be one of the basic options to be considered by ANY Senior Officers planning the policing of that march.
Relying on a Complaint,in last Wednesday's case was,by 15.30 totally unnecessary,as the City's Traffic and Public Transport systems were effectively hi-jacked and shut down. (ALL under the baleful gaze of several Civic/Garda CCTV Systems)
From what we can glean,senior Garda Management did not have ANY plan in place to deal with what occured,even though a reasonable person would have studied a map of Dublin City Centre and immediately fixated upon a few major intersections as being of tactical use to protest elements.
Rocket Science it is not,and Garda Authorities have significant precedent to guide their planning,dating all the way back to regular Republican Protests of the 1970's on O Connell Bridge,which usually saw small groups of Activists cause similar mayhem to Traffic and Public Transport far beyond what their numbers should have facilitated.
I have a sense that the decision of Senior Garda Management to avoid confrontation with this weeks protest group,was made with one eye looking back on the 1970's protests,a reasoning I suggest is deeply flawed.
Let there be no doubt,that Senior Garda Management in the DMR surrendered,without contest, control of Dublin City Centre to a group whose basic aim is to subvert the current mechanism's of the Irish State.
That decision by (Unnamed) Senior Garda Management,may yet turn out to be a VERY significant turning point in this Country's modern history.Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Can't be pleasant in these circumstances being a rank and file member. Probably getting abuse hurled at you by certain elements of protesters.
Then it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't with things like these road blockages. If these people were ordered to move on and things escalated they would be giving out, claiming totalitarian state, garda brutality etc. etc.
Whatever about some of the senior ranks, fair play to the decent gardai out there doing a difficult job in difficult circumstances.0 -
Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »Can't be pleasant in these circumstances being a rank and file member. Probably getting abuse hurled at you by certain elements of protesters.......
............Whatever about some of the senior ranks, fair play to the decent gardai out there doing a difficult job in difficult circumstances.
+1 to that.
I am concerned that the lack of leadership and focus at the Top of the Garda force,which was so very apparent last Wednesday.
Without effective,confident leadership the Gardai risk losing credibility amongst the ordinary Rank & File citizenry,which,once lost can be woefully difficult to regain.Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Wouldn't it have been wonderful if The Gardaí had borrowed the PSNI's water cannon units and just washed the scum off O Connell Bridge?
But just for the effect I would have left the Northern Irish plates on those truck's, beat the lads at their own game.0 -
Gardaí are clearing the roads:
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Gardaí are clearing the roads:
No problem with that at all,but why were these people allowed to remain there for up to 7 HOURS before some Senior Garda Officer felt it might be worth the risk ?
The Water protest had been and gone.
Few,if any,on O'Connell St/Bridge that evening were under any illusion that this was a TOTALLY seperate and orchestrated operation to inflict commercil damage upon the City and it's inhabitants.
And,given the compliance of Senior Garda Management,it succeeded on all counts.Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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No surprise to see The Gardaí wearing their high visibility jackets with their ID numbers prominent for all to see on their shoulders.
While 'the water protesters' wear hoddies to conceal their identities and as usual selective as to what they post online.0 -
The policing of the protest was well planned and for the most part was peaceful. Do people know how many people it takes to control even a single no compliant person? How many Gardaí would have been needed to clear the bridge? Would it not have provoked others still around from the protest to come down and support the 'protesters'? We like to think these things are simple and easily resolved, but on a day like last Wednesday there is a lot more to factor in.0
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The policing of the protest was well planned and for the most part was peaceful. Do people know how many people it takes to control even a single no compliant person? How many Gardaí would have been needed to clear the bridge? Would it not have provoked others still around from the protest to come down and support the 'protesters'? We like to think these things are simple and easily resolved, but on a day like last Wednesday there is a lot more to factor in.
I'd agree with all of the above caveats.
However,these are not new or unknown in the current climate.
These incidents are most certainly NOT simply or easily resolved,but this particular inaction on the part of the Authorities has made similar occurences now far more likely in future scenario's.
For most of the timeline of the City Centre sit-downs,particularly in the peak-time the GENERAL PUBLIC reaction may well have been more supportive than one might suppose.
There were a LOT of ordinary,uninterested,non-protesting people in and around Dublin City Centre on that Wednesday evening...people at Work,College,Shopping who were mightily angered at the collapse of Public Transport,for example.
Was the preservation and furtherance of these "Ordinary" citizens rights given any consideration by the Senior Garda Officers ?
The incidents I refer to HAVE to be seperated from the general Water Protest March,becuase they WERE seperate and merited a seperate Garda response of some nature,rather than one of faciliation over a period of several hours.
The debate,at this juncture,is well moot,as it has all come and gone,a nine-day wonder,now forgotten by most.
However,I can feel quite confident that many interested parties have drawn their own conclusions from the "Non-Confrontational" Policy of Senior Garda Management on the day.Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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I'd agree with all of the above caveats.
However,these are not new or unknown in the current climate.
These incidents are most certainly NOT simply or easily resolved,but this particular inaction on the part of the Authorities has made similar occurences now far more likely in future scenario's.
For most of the timeline of the City Centre sit-downs,particularly in the peak-time the GENERAL PUBLIC reaction may well have been more supportive than one might suppose.
There were a LOT of ordinary,uninterested,non-protesting people in and around Dublin City Centre on that Wednesday evening...people at Work,College,Shopping who were mightily angered at the collapse of Public Transport,for example.
Was the preservation and furtherance of these "Ordinary" citizens rights given any consideration by the Senior Garda Officers ?
The incidents I refer to HAVE to be seperated from the general Water Protest March,becuase they WERE seperate and merited a seperate Garda response of some nature,rather than one of faciliation over a period of several hours.
The debate,at this juncture,is well moot,as it has all come and gone,a nine-day wonder,now forgotten by most.
However,I can feel quite confident that many interested parties have drawn their own conclusions from the "Non-Confrontational" Policy of Senior Garda Management on the day.
Tell me where you would have got the resources to do it?
Has any other country managed to overcome this issue?0 -
Tell me where you would have got the resources to do it?
Has any other country managed to overcome this issue?
Whether other countries overcome issues is of no relevance to my point re the 10th Dec carry-on.
However,it has to be said that other EU countries would have been far less likely to facilitate the shutdown of their Main Street as well as a significant portion of their cities Public Transport.
The issue of resources is certainly open for debate,however whilst substantial Garda resources were deployed in relation to the march proper,NONE were allocated to the codology on O'Connell Bridge .
Therefore the major question I have,is whether the Senior Garda Officers who decided to be non-confrontational,would care to explain to the General Public,who were inconvienenced in their thousands,the rationale behind their decision.
In circumstances such as prevailed on the 10Th,the message clearly sent out by Senior Garda Management was one of not being confident of their own situation...I sincerely believe this was a MAJOR error of judgement on their part,and one which will come back to haunt them.(And every other non-protesting citizen too !)Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Little CuChulainn wrote: »Preserving the peace I suspect.
That would be a bit of a cop out on their part though, you could use that for countless situations, from the smallest of situations to not tackling organised crime etc.0 -
Whether other countries overcome issues is of no relevance to my point re the 10th Dec carry-on.
However,it has to be said that other EU countries would have been far less likely to facilitate the shutdown of their Main Street as well as a significant portion of their cities Public Transport.
The issue of resources is certainly open for debate,however whilst substantial Garda resources were deployed in relation to the march proper,NONE were allocated to the codology on O'Connell Bridge .
Therefore the major question I have,is whether the Senior Garda Officers who decided to be non-confrontational,would care to explain to the General Public,who were inconvienenced in their thousands,the rationale behind their decision.
In circumstances such as prevailed on the 10Th,the message clearly sent out by Senior Garda Management was one of not being confident of their own situation...I sincerely believe this was a MAJOR error of judgement on their part,and one which will come back to haunt them.(And every other non-protesting citizen too !)
Most other European cities don't have the majority of their public transport running down one street. Their shopping areas are also spread out.
And London does suffer with Oxford Street getting shut down by protesters, and Piccadilly and Trafalgar Square.
The priority on that Wednesday was the large gathering of people in Merrion Square and the manning of barricades at the Kildare Street side of the Dail. And the Gardaí on Kildare Street were under pressure from the first march of the day arriving, they were on that front line for five hours. Should their support have been diverted?
As for being non confrontational, the public order unit were out for a good bit of the day behind the lads on Kildare Street.0 -
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The priority on that Wednesday was the large gathering of people in Merrion Square and the manning of barricades at the Kildare Street side of the Dail. And the Gardaí on Kildare Street were under pressure from the first march of the day arriving, they were on that front line for five hours. Should their support have been diverted?
As for being non confrontational, the public order unit were out for a good bit of the day behind the lads on Kildare Street.
Short answer ?
Yes they should have been diverted.
However,could it be this decision was short-circuted by a lack of manpower resources on the day ?
This March was flagged for over a Month,it was always going to be a large event,it was always going to carry with it a substantial risk of public order incidents.
The many disparate groups never made any secret of this being a mould-breaking Protest with all of the connotations that carries.
I'm suggesting that the Kildare Street pressures foreign cites are indicative of Senior Garda Management failing to plan effectively for the event,and subsequently using the relatively trouble-free status of that main event to downplay the results of their inaction on the fringes.
The inevitable spin-off from this,is a significant rise in the self-confidence of the anarchist brigade to stage another spectacular at will.Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Short answer ?
Yes they should have been diverted.
However,could it be this decision was short-circuted by a lack of manpower resources on the day ?
This March was flagged for over a Month,it was always going to be a large event,it was always going to carry with it a substantial risk of public order incidents.
The many disparate groups never made any secret of this being a mould-breaking Protest with all of the connotations that carries.
I'm suggesting that the Kildare Street pressures foreign cites are indicative of Senior Garda Management failing to plan effectively for the event,and subsequently using the relatively trouble-free status of that main event to downplay the results of their inaction on the fringes.
The inevitable spin-off from this,is a significant rise in the self-confidence of the anarchist brigade to stage another spectacular at will.
Have you ever considered, just maybe, the the people in charge of this actually know what they are doing and that your opinion, which you are entitled to, is wrong?
When was the last time you tried to arrest someone in a heated crowd situation? People do funny things when they are in a crowd that they would not ordinarily do.0 -
Reflecting on this I guess there can be a divide sometimes, but of course not always, between preserving the peace and law enforcement.
Giving the Gardai the benefit of the doubt the way they handled things definitely fell under the banner of preserving the peace, at maybe the cost of law enforcement.
I'm on the mobile now but do the Gardai have a mission statement? Maybe they are aiming at preserving the peace even if it does mean not enforcing the law at every occasion.
Being honest, I don't agree with it, I believe it to be a slippery slope and giving credibility and support to extremist elements, a surrender of sorts. And if future demonstrations spiral out of control it will help to push people's calls for stricter law enforcement.
But policing has always been a contentious issue in this country and people always have strong views on it. I grew up in a very rural and pretty right wing part of Kerry, the average person here would possibly have a very different opinion to the disruption in Dublin than some of the people that were in Dublin that day.
As the saying goes one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. We're probably all equally right and wrong.0 -
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Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »Reflecting on this I guess there can be a divide sometimes, but of course not always, between preserving the peace and law enforcement.
Giving the Gardai the benefit of the doubt the way they handled things definitely fell under the banner of preserving the peace, at maybe the cost of law enforcement.
I'm on the mobile now but do the Gardai have a mission statement? Maybe they are aiming at preserving the peace even if it does mean not enforcing the law at every occasion.
Being honest, I don't agree with it, I believe it to be a slippery slope and giving credibility and support to extremist elements, a surrender of sorts. And if future demonstrations spiral out of control it will help to push people's calls for stricter law enforcement.
But policing has always been a contentious issue in this country and people always have strong views on it. I grew up in a very rural and pretty right wing part of Kerry, the average person here would possibly have a very different opinion to the disruption in Dublin than some of the people that were in Dublin that day.
As the saying goes one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. We're probably all equally right and wrong.
Mission statement: Working with communities to protect and serve.
There is a time to be heavy handed and a time for a softer approach. Finding the balance to that is key and to be honest I'm getting tired of all the armchair generals thinking they know best.
Would you try and tell a doctor how to perform surgery?
Ps super sonic, those last two bits are not aimed at you.0
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