POU /ERU under fire

Capri · 16-11-2014 2:09am #1

Since I saw the Public Order Unit marking on the vans ( and why windowless vans instead of 'proper' minibuses with seatbelts - H&S ??

) it struck me that this Gov't was preparing to subdue any protest against their policys.

Today the POU became a focal point in the Jobstown protest, the TD demanded they be withdrawn as their presence had inflamed the situation - I think that all these 'specialised units' ,including the Traffic Corps, are sending out the wrong message that they think themselves superior to the ordinary member on the beat ( in conversations with a lot of 'ordinary' members, they seem to despise these 'special units' :rolleyes: )
It reminds me of the Ferguson shooting in the US when the Highway patrol replaced the local police as they were seen as more 'impartial' than the specialised local police (who were all white ?) When some here see the POU /ERU it makes matters worse rather than better :mad:

Would it not be better to train up members in various skills (Traffic / Firearms / Riot duty ) and move them around rather than putting them up on a pedestal ??

unattendedbag · 16-11-2014 4:10am

Public order unit are made up from uniformed members who have been trained. They are pulled off working units or on overtime when required.

Capri · 16-11-2014 8:02am

unattendedbag wrote: »

Public order unit are made up from uniformed members who have been trained. They are pulled off working units or on overtime when required.

I know that, but what I'm saying is that the perception out there is that the 'Public Order Unit' markings and uniform are like a red rag to a bull, whereas if the trained members just showed up in regular minibuses in regular uniform it wouldn't create that division between their fellow Gardai / members of the public ?
When you create specalised units / forces there's always going to be a competitive element there to 'show off' to their fellow officers that they won the prize and got better equipment

16-11-2014 9:34am

Capri wrote: »

I know that, but what I'm saying is that the perception out there is that the 'Public Order Unit' markings and uniform are like a red rag to a bull, whereas if the trained members just showed up in regular minibuses in regular uniform it wouldn't create that division between their fellow Gardai / members of the public ?
When you create specalised units / forces there's always going to be a competitive element there to 'show off' to their fellow officers that they won the prize and got better equipment

Public order units are not deployed at peaceful protests. Watch the videos and see how objects were thrown at uniformed and plain clothes Gardaí.

Also, your opinion is a bit stupid really. Specialist units are there because they have a particular role. Not everything can be done by the regular uniform Gardaí. I've yet to see one "show off".

unichall · 16-11-2014 10:44am

Capri wrote: »

I know that, but what I'm saying is that the perception out there is that the 'Public Order Unit' markings and uniform are like a red rag to a bull, whereas if the trained members just showed up in regular minibuses in regular uniform it wouldn't create that division between their fellow Gardai / members of the public ?
When you create specalised units / forces there's always going to be a competitive element there to 'show off' to their fellow officers that they won the prize and got better equipment

While I understand your take on things I don't think you understand the situation fully. They have the ability to bus in countless numbers of 'uniform' members from surrounding districts and divisions if need be but what happens when they come under fire from missiles and attacks from unruly elements of these protests? They will be ill equipped to deal with these situations and I dare say the gardai would come under even more scrutiny and criticism for this.

The POU are drafted in when situations are beyond the control of the 'uniform' officer on the beat and a tactical operation is required to regain/retain order. As for ERU they have an entirely different role to play and would not attend your average public order incident so I'm not sure why they are mentioned in the title.

Capri · 16-11-2014 11:25am

The POU are drafted in when situations are beyond the control of the 'uniform' officer on the beat and a tactical operation is required to regain/retain order.

Well I suppose some favour the 'Shock and awe' tactics, but I favour the 'Silent power' approach.Bit like the difference between the marked up Volvo XC70's and unmarked Mondeo 3.0's / Isuzu 3.2 Troopers - the Mondeos / Troopers probably gets better results whereas the Volvo's are useful but more for the 'publicity' saying 'There's armed Gardai in your area', but it also means the criminals go to ground until the 'specialist (marked up) units are gone from the area - with the powerful unmarked vehicles it's not as easy for the criminals to see them coming

Back to jobstown - 2 Youths AFIK were arrested out of a crowd of 100+, pics in the paper show ordinary members protecting the Tanaiste so they were doing a good job without any assistance,a brick was only thrown after the POU arrived so why did the POU weigh in in the first place

As regards 'showing off', had a house under surveillance when out of the blue the SDU showed up with blues n' twos - surveillance blown, suspect probably out the back door ! :mad::mad:

16-11-2014 3:19pm

Capri wrote: »

Back to jobstown - 2 Youths AFIK were arrested out of a crowd of 100+, pics in the paper show ordinary members protecting the Tanaiste so they were doing a good job without any assistance,a brick was only thrown after the POU arrived so why did the POU weigh in in the first place

Maybe you should stop listening to the 'peaceful protesters' and watch the videos before the Public Order Unit were deployed.

Bruton is hit around the 3 min mark.

Female hit around the 5 min mark.

Yup. It was all the fault of the Public Order Unit.

I take it you are claiming to be a mule? If so, are you a Rambo style one who doesn't need the support of all these specialist units? They just cramp your style?

unattendedbag · 16-11-2014 6:26pm

Capri wrote: »

I know that, but what I'm saying is that the perception out there is that the 'Public Order Unit' markings and uniform are like a red rag to a bull, whereas if the trained members just showed up in regular minibuses in regular uniform it wouldn't create that division between their fellow Gardai / members of the public ?
When you create specalised units / forces there's always going to be a competitive element there to 'show off' to their fellow officers that they won the prize and got better equipment

There's no competitive element at all between units. Guards are glad to have them there for back up and for them to step in when needed. When it starts raining bricks and a group of angry protectors are threatening violence then the lads with the shields and helmets are the best guards to be facing the scene. The decision to deploy them lies way up the chain and to date a lot of restraint has been used.

Schindlers Pissed · 16-11-2014 9:09pm

Imagine that happening a Senator or whatever in the USA? The PO Unit would be the least of the "peaceful" protesters worries…..there would be shots fired…….

kub · 16-11-2014 10:58pm

Schindlers Pissed wrote: »

Imagine that happening a Senator or whatever in the USA? The PO Unit would be the least of the "peaceful" protesters worries…..there would be shots fired…….

Proper bloody order if there was here also, did anyone notice the terrified look on The Tanaiste's face?
I am no fan of The Labour Party or these water charges however as a citizen of this country I have respect for those in office.
If this was a peaceful protest then those protesting should have been across the road at the very least.
Pity the Public Order Unit were not there earlier at least the situation would have been dealt with long before it got out of hand.

markpb · 16-11-2014 11:39pm

Schindlers Pissed wrote: »

Imagine that happening a Senator or whatever in the USA? The PO Unit would be the least of the "peaceful" protesters worries…..there would be shots fired…….

Imagine what would happen if this had happened in the US. A water balloon would be the least of the senators protection details worries. There would be shots fired.

Daft statement, they're different countries.

cabledude · 16-11-2014 11:49pm

markpb wrote: »

Imagine what would happen if this had happened in the US. A water balloon would be the least of the senators protection details worries. There would be shots fired.

Daft statement, they're different countries.

Totally irrelevant. She is an elected member of the peoples parliament. She is also a member of the government. What happened to her is assault. In the US there would have been rubber bullets used on those who assaulted a member of the government. That is what should have happened in this instance. If we as a society generally cannot protect our representatives and government, who can we protect?

flyingmachine · 17-11-2014 12:12pm

foreign wrote: »

Maybe you should stop listening to the 'peaceful protesters' and watch the videos before the Public Order Unit were deployed.

Bruton is hit around the 3 min mark.

Female hit around the 5 min mark.

Yup. It was all the fault of the Public Order Unit.

I take it you are claiming to be a mule? If so, are you a Rambo style one who doesn't need the support of all these specialist units? They just cramp your style?

Is that female that got hit a guard. Makes no difference, I'm just wondering.

Likewise with the lap wearing the cap. he looks like he is trying to make an arrest.

17-11-2014 1:17pm

flyingmachine wrote: »

Is that female that got hit a guard. Makes no difference, I'm just wondering.

Likewise with the lap wearing the cap. he looks like he is trying to make an arrest.

I don't know. From the video it looks like it. But as you said, what difference does it make? The protest is not peaceful at this point.

coach23 · 17-11-2014 2:05pm

feeding the trolls is dangerous

TallGlass · 17-11-2014 2:33pm

I think the people calling for shots and rubber bullets to be fired need to calm down. Yes, she is a government minister of a small island on the edge of Europe we are not America or anything like it, we are usually a peaceful bunch. We don't need the ERU opening fire on unarmed protesters.

I think the Garda have grievances with the government and so do the protesters obliviously. Everyone needs to calm down a little at these protests and keep there animal instincts in check both Garda, Ministers and the public. Enda Kenny needs to drop this water charge non-sense he's wasting far to much on it and it's greatly aggravating the general public wasting Garda resources and budget money.

Drop the charge, come back in a few years with a plan that will work and stop trying to fix this irreparably damaged company/charge.

Schindlers Pissed · 17-11-2014 3:13pm

markpb wrote: »

Imagine what would happen if this had happened in the US. A water balloon would be the least of the senators protection details worries. There would be shots fired.

Daft statement, they're different countries.

How is it a daft statement?? These protesters should be lucky they live in a tolerant society such as ours……imagine throwing an object at Barack Obama??

If a high ranking Minister of another country was trapped by a mob there would be shots fired. It also wouldn't be allowed happen in the first place.

We are drawing comparisons because it's a fact. The protesters should be aware that they wouldn't get away with acts like that anywhere else.

hardCopy · 17-11-2014 6:27pm

TallGlass wrote: »

I think the people calling for shots and rubber bullets to be fired need to calm down. Yes, she is a government minister of a small island on the edge of Europe we are not America or anything like it, we are usually a peaceful bunch. We don't need the ERU opening fire on unarmed protesters.

I think the Garda have grievances with the government and so do the protesters obliviously. Everyone needs to calm down a little at these protests and keep there animal instincts in check both Garda, Ministers and the public. Enda Kenny needs to drop this water charge non-sense he's wasting far to much on it and it's greatly aggravating the general public wasting Garda resources and budget money.

Drop the charge, come back in a few years with a plan that will work and stop trying to fix this irreparably damaged company/charge.

People have the right to protest peacefully all they want.

Nobody has the right to assault and intimidate our legally elected representatives, close O'Connell Bridge or harass water workers doing their job lawfully.

The country is not run by mob rule, no violent minority should be allowed to influence the government. (Love them or hate them)

For what it's worth I think the guards have shown great restraint to date in the face of extreme attempts to provoke them, contrast their behaviour now to Belnaboy a few years ago and Reclaim the Streets even further back. The Gung Ho approach seems to have been done away with.

Capri · 17-11-2014 7:09pm

More discreet presence at Mansion house yesterday - unmarked minibus

Just another point re POU and protesters - when 'Republicans'('Continuity' ?) closed O'Connell bridge and other streets last year (or 2012 ?) for c.1 hour where was the POU, or were they formed as a result of those events when ordinary members on the spot seemed impotent in the face of 'paramilitaries' I remember at the time thinking we needed the French CRS instead of the 'Garda Siciní' that seemed to be helping the protesters enforce closure of the bridge !

IMO There's a difference between paramilitaries deciding to close streets in the capital and people protesting against a badly handled gov't policy. ( I don't think the water charge per-se is huge What's €200 in the greater scheme of things, but having your PPS number 'sold' and Irish Water staff getting big bonuses pi*ses people off as we've seen )

um7y1h83ge06nx · 17-11-2014 7:28pm

It's situations like these that make me fear for the future of the country.

Here we have a bunch of people out of control and in many countries would be considered a security threat. Then we have a fairly impotent police force in the AGS that aren't able to enforce the law.

It's a recipe for disaster. I for one believe that if the state cannot adequately protect the Tanaiste, how can it hope to protect ordinary decent citizens from violent crime.

There should be more protections and provisions in place for people to defend themselves from criminals and the right to self defence protected.

BoatMad · 17-11-2014 9:46pm

but having your PPS number 'sold'

well that gone now. PPS was always a red herring anyway

cabledude · 18-11-2014 8:27pm

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

It's situations like these that make me fear for the future of the country.

Here we have a bunch of people out of control and in many countries would be considered a security threat. Then we have a fairly impotent police force in the AGS that aren't able to enforce the law.

It's a recipe for disaster. I for one believe that if the state cannot adequately protect the Tanaiste, how can it hope to protect ordinary decent citizens from violent crime.

There should be more protections and provisions in place for people to defend themselves from criminals and the right to self defence protected.

Thats the broad point I was trying to make. We put Joan Burton into the Dail. The Daíl elected her as Deputy Prime Minister. And we then stand by while her car is barricaded in for a couple of hours and has water balloons thrown at her. That was common assault and it as simple as that. The Gardai should have shown their full force after a member of the Government was assaulted. How would we react if she was assaulted by a mob in London. Or Munich? We go nuts. But its ok for a few Irish scummers to do it to her. A60 year old woman. Shameful.....

flyingmachine · 18-11-2014 8:44pm

Schindlers Pissed wrote: »

How is it a daft statement?? These protesters should be lucky they live in a tolerant society such as ours……imagine throwing an object at Barack Obama??

If a high ranking Minister of another country was trapped by a mob there would be shots fired. It also wouldn't be allowed happen in the first place.

We are drawing comparisons because it's a fact. The protesters should be aware that they wouldn't get away with acts like that anywhere else.

On that comparison why should we play €1.53c on petrol when its the equivalent of a euro in the US.

Why should we drive on the left when Europe drive on the right. Need I go on?

Its a childish example what I've done there but its the same as what your doing.

Also IF you did want to go down that road our TDs are lucky they are not in the likes of Greece/Turkey etc where there'd be riots and they'd have a lot more to worry about than water balloons.

We live in Ireland not the US or GB but Ireland so no matter how lucky you think we are not living anywhere else we are governed by Irish laws and by Irish law you won't get shot for heckling a TD or throwing water balloons at them.

BTW I'm not in agreement with what happened in Tallaght but I'm also like most middle class people and its getting very close to bread and butter stage and I'm someone who doesn't smoke/drink or gamble.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 18-11-2014 9:40pm

I think the last few days is yet another example of how the enforcement of the law needs to be examined and discussed.

Taking a soft approach to law and order has at least 3 consequences -

Law abiding citizens begin to think that they are unsafe and under threat, leading to fear, particularly among the vulnerable such as the elderly. An extreme consequence of this is people begin to enforce the law themselves.

Criminals and trouble makers see opportunities in soft law enforcement, the likelihood of facing punishtment for a variety of crimes decreases. International gangs, particularly drug gangs see Ireland as a good place to carry out some operations.

The ordinary rank and file Gardai become under increased threat of harassment, assault and murder as criminals, both serious and petty, do not see them as a threat or as a symbol of law and order.

Zambia · 18-11-2014 10:46pm

TD's that assemble mobs should have no input in how the gardai control the mob.

So far every mob I have seen is deserving of a public order unit.

AlekSmart · 19-11-2014 4:10pm

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

It's situations like these that make me fear for the future of the country.

Here we have a bunch of people out of control and in many countries would be considered a security threat. Then we have a fairly impotent police force in the AGS that aren't able to enforce the law.

It's a recipe for disaster. I for one believe that if the state cannot adequately protect the Tanaiste, how can it hope to protect ordinary decent citizens from violent crime.

There should be more protections and provisions in place for people to defend themselves from criminals and the right to self defence protected.

The pair of Utubes posted in foreign's #7 portray only one "Shame" to me,that of voluntary ignorance.

The soundtrack's alone tell a more accurate tale than the mute versions do,and it's a sad tale indeed for Ireland,although not that surprising.

The other aspect is that the Situation was very obviously out-of-control from a point far earlier than is being admitted.

How the Tanaiste's car was then allowed to become surrounded (On private property ?) by an obviously volatile mob,is surely something for Garda senior management to ponder upon.

At one point in Clip2,a look of uncertainty,even concern can be seen on several uniformed Gardai,as if they realize the danger of their situation.

Paul Murphy,TD can try to play this down as much as he likes,but this incident was knife-edge,and nowhere near the "Young Lads messin around" line he has been peddling.

Not for nothing,is there a 6ft sharp-topped palisade fence around this "Community" facility.:(

19-11-2014 4:27pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Paul Murphy,TD can try to play this down as much as he likes,but this incident was knife-edge,and nowhere near the "Young Lads messin around" line he has been peddling.

He keeps using the brick incident as the only violence on the day. Completely ignoring everything that went on from the walk to what went on around the car.

FGR · 20-11-2014 4:38pm

Gardaí can only work with what they have. We have a Government incapable of supporting law and order and what results is a police service that has to attend public order events with both hands tied behind their back.

Such is the legacy of a lack of investment (financial or otherwise).

AlekSmart · 20-11-2014 11:58pm

foreign wrote: »

He keeps using the brick incident as the only violence on the day. Completely ignoring everything that went on from the walk to what went on around the car.

From my perspective Deputy Murphy appears to be an "innocent abroad"...a somewhat idealistic and delusional believer in something,of which he's not quite certain of yet.

However,he has found a broad church which now sees him as somebody who they can trust to stand up for them,and him with a University Degree too.

Human nauture,of itself is brutally unpredictable and prone to violent upheaval,which suits some agenda's to a T.

Much of this volatility,in the past has been released through organized means,such as Great Wars,Internal Rebellions and Tribal Strife.

Modern Ireland,is however in such a basically good state that revolutionaries have not really had much opportunity to find cause about which to revolt.

Most Irish people are savvy enough to recognize that things could be a hellofa lot worse,with very clear examples of just how much worse available 24/7 via the oul broadband from as close as Bulgaria,Romaina,Albania et al.....

It will be educational to see whether the "Monster Meetings" will continue at their current level,following the Irish Water climbdown,or whether the "Reasonable" people will do their sums and go..."Mmmmmmm I just might be able to get to the Algarve in January yet

"

um7y1h83ge06nx · 23-11-2014 12:51pm

According to some of the papers today members of the INLA were involved in Jobstown.

Little CuChulainn · 23-11-2014 4:01pm

It's unfortunate that AGS cannot even speak up to defend themselves, let alone publish their own videos to counter the edited ones popping up on protest sites and pages. Hopefully we will see a number of arrests and prosecutions arising out of the video footage collected so far.

kub · 23-11-2014 5:31pm

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

According to some of the papers today members of the INLA were involved in Jobstown.

I am not at all surprised at that, very coincidental that the week before SF were under pressure in The Dail about moving sexual offenders from the North to the South and as usual no information was given.
Mary Lou creates a farcical situation in the National Parliament and then surprise surprise the following weekend this happens the Tanaiste.
Also quite a lot of Irish flags popping up at Water Protests, why I wonder? Oh yes republicans of course.
SF are masters at this carry on.

BoatMad · 24-11-2014 11:38am

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

I think the last few days is yet another example of how the enforcement of the law needs to be examined and discussed.

Taking a soft approach to law and order has at least 3 consequences -

Law abiding citizens begin to think that they are unsafe and under threat, leading to fear, particularly among the vulnerable such as the elderly. An extreme consequence of this is people begin to enforce the law themselves.

Criminals and trouble makers see opportunities in soft law enforcement, the likelihood of facing punishtment for a variety of crimes decreases. International gangs, particularly drug gangs see Ireland as a good place to carry out some operations.

The ordinary rank and file Gardai become under increased threat of harassment, assault and murder as criminals, both serious and petty, do not see them as a threat or as a symbol of law and order.

Im in favour of supporting the Gardai, but I take exceptional distaste to what you have written here, This type of attitude is the one that allows governments to enforce police states and tear down civil rights.

peddling the "fall of society" over hyping the extent of the extremism is all part of the narrative that allows these clampdowns.

The fact is Jobstown got out of hand, But its an isolated incident and no doubt the Gardai will examine the exact requirements for protecting ministers etc.

However we must be careful that responses are proportional to the broad situation, not a specific instance. remember " hard cases make bad law"

bravestar · 24-11-2014 3:16pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Im in favour of supporting the Gardai, but I take exceptional distaste to what you have written here, This type of attitude is the one that allows governments to enforce police states and tear down civil rights.

peddling the "fall of society" over hyping the extent of the extremism is all part of the narrative that allows these clampdowns.

The fact is Jobstown got out of hand, But its an isolated incident and no doubt the Gardai will examine the exact requirements for protecting ministers etc.

However we must be careful that responses are proportional to the broad situation, not a specific instance. remember " hard cases make bad law"

How do you know it was an isolated incident?

Capri · 25-11-2014 2:56am

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/chief-superintendent-tells-court-garda%C3%AD-in-catch-22-policing-water-meter-protests-1.2013442

Chief Superintendent tells court gardaí in ‘Catch 22’ policing water meter protests

A Chief Superintendent has told the High Court that locations where water meters were being installed were not public areas for the purpose of the Public Order Act, leaving gardaí with a difficulty when it came to policing protests.

Chief Super Fergus Healy was giving evidence in a hearing concerning three men alleged to have breached a High Court order not to go within 20 metres of contractors installing metres.

The attachment and committal (of fine or imprisonment) motion against a fourth man was struck out.

On November 5th, the High Court granted an order to a water meter installation contractor, establishing the 20-metre exclusion zone around locations where its workers were installing meters in Dublin City.

GMC Sierra Ltd, which had a contract to install meters at various locations in Dublin, had already secured injunctions preventing a number of individuals or anyone who had notice of the order from assaulting, intimidating or interfering with workers installing the meters.

The company secured the orders after its lawyers told the High Court that its workers had been harassed and threatened while installing meters in the Dublin 5 and Dublin 13 areas.

Lawyers for GMC Sierra last week moved contempt of court proceedings against four protesters on grounds that they allegedly breached the ‘20-metre order’ at locations in Dublin 7 and Dublin 13.

Jim O’Callaghan SC, for GMC Sierra, said breaches of the orders had continued and read into the record portions of an affidavit by an operations manager for GMC Sierra.

It stated that in the days and weeks following November 5th, GMC Sierra had planned to install 500 water meters in areas around Dublin but only 200 were installed.

A worker was allegedly struck by a van, a known protester ‘kneed a worker in the face’ and protesters breached the 20-metre safety zone, the affidavit alleged. It was not alleged that any of the three men, allegedly in breach of the order, had engaged in this violence.

Mr Justice Paul Gilligan gave the four respondents the opportunity to submit replying affidavits of their version of events and adjourned GMC Sierra’s attachment and committal motion until today.

Patrick McGrath SC, for the protesters, asked for an adjournment on the basis that his clients had not been able to secure legal aid.

The judge said he would consider an adjournment if, pending the adjournment, the four protesters gave an undertaking to comply with the 20-metre part of the order.

Mr McGrath consulted his clients and then told the court that the undertakings were not forthcoming.

He argued that the application against one of the men should be dropped as the legal paperwork was not in order. There was applause and cheering from the large crowd when the court agreed to strike it out.

AlekSmart · 13-12-2014 2:33am

The events in Dublin City Centre on the evening of the "Big March" would now appear to suggest that Garda Senior Management have decided that the force will not act to uphold the constitutional rights of Law Abiding citizens.

I was both surprised and amazed to read the Irish Times account....

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sit-down-water-protest-causes-traffic-chaos-in-dublin-1.2033390

Just after 2pm members of a group marching from the Garden of Remembrance in the north inner city, down O’Connell Street and on towards the main protest site at Merrion Square across the Liffey decided to stage a sit-down protest.

They blocked O’Connell Bridge in all directions in an action that forced the closure of O’Connell Street and large stretches of the north and south quays, with some of those involved using camping chairs.

The protesters stayed in situ for hours and made the usual busy Dublin evening rush-hour traffic even more chaotic due to the road closures and diversions that resulted from their actions. However, Senior Garda officers believed the group was trying to provoke a reaction from the force and they decided against deploying the public order unit to clear the junctions.

While the number of protesters on O’Connell Bridge and at some points along the quays gradually reduced in the afternoon and into last evening, a small group was still staging its sit-down protest late last night with gardaí continuing to stand off from it. The area was eventually cleared before 9pm.

Surely whichever Senior Garda Officer responsible for the decision to be "non-reactional" should at least be accountable enough to justify,to the Thousands of Non-Involved members of the Public who'se right to free passage through,and enjoyment of the City was denied for an unreasonably extended period of time.

To reveal that the Capitals City Centre was effectively shut down for 7 HOURS,simply because un-named "Senior Garda Officers" felt concerned at reacting to illegality and harassesment being carried out in full and open view on the Capital's Main Street is tantamount to acceptance that Garda Senior Management are no longer confident of their own force's ability to operate.

This is about as serious as it can get for Ireland as a democracy and it also poses very difficult questions for Garda Rank & File members,who surely deserve some form of actual Leadership as opposed to what can only be taken as an expression of open fear.

I believe that Commissioner O Sullivan urgently needs to address the Statement in the Irish Times article,either by confirming it as standing Garda Operational Policy going forward,OR by reiterating what Garda Policy ACTUALLY is at present.

The sense amongst ordinary,non-activist members of the population is now very definitely one of semi-abandonment,with the message from Senior Garda Management seemingly one of "You'll have to look out for yourself because we certainly won't be involving ourselves in assisting you".

I would be interested in hearing the views of front-line members themselves on the events of Wednesday afternoon/evening and it's lessons ?

13-12-2014 10:31am

I'm sure the senior management looked at the overall picture and the consequences of deployment to clear the junctions and what manpower was available at the time.

Remember, at the same time that the sit down was happening people were still trying to get past the barrier on Kildare St.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 13-12-2014 2:28pm

There is also a lot of support for left wing politic parties and indeed more extremist left wing elements among the Gardai. It's not surprising that they world be reluctant to move against the protesters.

Of course if they continue to stand by the government will have to either order them to carry out actions or stand down.

13-12-2014 2:36pm

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

There is also a lot of support for left wing politic parties and indeed more extremist left wing elements among the Gardai. It's not surprising that they world be reluctant to move against the protesters.

Of course if they continue to stand by the government will have to either order them to carry out actions or stand down.

Can I have some of what you are having?

Paulzx · 13-12-2014 2:43pm

Can you imagine the pictures in the papers, the videos on youtube and the general commentry on "garda brutality" if the public order unit had moved in to clear the "peacefull protest" on O Connell bridge.

If I was a rank and file member of AGS I would be very hesitant to lay one finger on a member of the public. Your job and your livelihood is at risk. Senior management obviously now sh*t themselves at the thought of physical confrontation with "peacefull protesters". The vocal minority of Garda haters and bashers make most noise.

If the silent majority wish for AGS to take control they must be more vocal in their support for the gardai. The extreme groups who are looking to provoke reaction are setting the agenda in the media. Any guard who draws his baton is now automatically guilty of brutality.

Maybe the inconvienece caused to thousands of normal people on Wednesday by a group of gob****es might force the public reaction in support of AGS

um7y1h83ge06nx · 13-12-2014 3:01pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Can I have some of what you are having?

I'm just a bit wary when there has been issues with collusion that there wouldn't at least be some sympathies for protests driven in part by Sinn Fein and organisations like Eirigi, 32 CSM etc. and that might be clouding judgements.

markpb · 13-12-2014 3:20pm

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

I'm just a bit wary when there has been issues with collusion that there wouldn't at least be some sympathies for protests driven in part by Sinn Fein and organisations like Eirigi, 32 CSM etc. and that might be clouding judgements.

I think you're mixing up your wings with your terrorist groups. There used to be support by some members of AGS for a Republican movement but I suspect this has waned in the last decade. On the other hand, I don't know many guards who would be left leaning at all. I'm not a member and obviously not speaking for the force as a whole but from what I've seen, they tend to be slightly right of center (except when it comes to travellers ;-))

That's not to say that some wouldn't agree with IW protesters but I don't think that had shown at all and I don't think it was the reason for the inaction last week.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 13-12-2014 4:00pm

I guess too that the government don't want to be seen either to be telling the Gardai what to do as it would look like they're just trying to clamp down the protests.

I'm not against the protests, just don't think that people should be allowed to do what they like without being at least challenged on it.

Maybe the Gardai never received any complaints about the road blockages? I'm sure if enough people rang in they would have felt they had the support to do something or feel forced to do something.

AlekSmart · 13-12-2014 6:04pm

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

I guess too that the government don't want to be seen either to be telling the Gardai what to do as it would look like they're just trying to clamp down the protests.

I'm not against the protests, just don't think that people should be allowed to do what they like without being at least challenged on it.

Maybe the Gardai never received any complaints about the road blockages? I'm sure if enough people rang in they would have felt they had the support to do something or feel forced to do something.

I'm in general agreement with your points Kiera Substantial Keypunch,and I can see some very worrying elements in your earlier post regarding the political leanings of Senior Garda Management in respect of last Wednesdays occurences.

It MUST be noted that the actual Protest March and Meeting was well underway and focused upon Dáil Éireann as it should have been,however,the challenge to Garda Authority and to the greater Public right to free and unfettered passage was a totally seperate set of events,and merited a similar response.

I strongly suggest that the post-march sit-down protests were easily predictable, (Myself and some colleagues had discussed that probability during our lunch break the previous Saturday).

I would also suggest that such an occurence,would/should be one of the basic options to be considered by ANY Senior Officers planning the policing of that march.

Relying on a Complaint,in last Wednesday's case was,by 15.30 totally unnecessary,as the City's Traffic and Public Transport systems were effectively hi-jacked and shut down. (ALL under the baleful gaze of several Civic/Garda CCTV Systems)

From what we can glean,senior Garda Management did not have ANY plan in place to deal with what occured,even though a reasonable person would have studied a map of Dublin City Centre and immediately fixated upon a few major intersections as being of tactical use to protest elements.

Rocket Science it is not,and Garda Authorities have significant precedent to guide their planning,dating all the way back to regular Republican Protests of the 1970's on O Connell Bridge,which usually saw small groups of Activists cause similar mayhem to Traffic and Public Transport far beyond what their numbers should have facilitated.

I have a sense that the decision of Senior Garda Management to avoid confrontation with this weeks protest group,was made with one eye looking back on the 1970's protests,a reasoning I suggest is deeply flawed.

Let there be no doubt,that Senior Garda Management in the DMR surrendered,without contest, control of Dublin City Centre to a group whose basic aim is to subvert the current mechanism's of the Irish State.

That decision by (Unnamed) Senior Garda Management,may yet turn out to be a VERY significant turning point in this Country's modern history.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 13-12-2014 8:18pm

Can't be pleasant in these circumstances being a rank and file member. Probably getting abuse hurled at you by certain elements of protesters.

Then it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't with things like these road blockages. If these people were ordered to move on and things escalated they would be giving out, claiming totalitarian state, garda brutality etc. etc.

Whatever about some of the senior ranks, fair play to the decent gardai out there doing a difficult job in difficult circumstances.

AlekSmart · 13-12-2014 9:19pm

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

Can't be pleasant in these circumstances being a rank and file member. Probably getting abuse hurled at you by certain elements of protesters.......

............Whatever about some of the senior ranks, fair play to the decent gardai out there doing a difficult job in difficult circumstances.

+1 to that.

I am concerned that the lack of leadership and focus at the Top of the Garda force,which was so very apparent last Wednesday.

Without effective,confident leadership the Gardai risk losing credibility amongst the ordinary Rank & File citizenry,which,once lost can be woefully difficult to regain.

kub · 13-12-2014 11:13pm

Wouldn't it have been wonderful if The Gardaí had borrowed the PSNI's water cannon units and just washed the scum off O Connell Bridge?

But just for the effect I would have left the Northern Irish plates on those truck's, beat the lads at their own game.

Kevin3 · 15-12-2014 2:30am

Gardaí are clearing the roads:

AlekSmart · 15-12-2014 3:57pm

Kevin3 wrote: »

Gardaí are clearing the roads:

No problem with that at all,but why were these people allowed to remain there for up to 7 HOURS before some Senior Garda Officer felt it might be worth the risk ?

The Water protest had been and gone.

Few,if any,on O'Connell St/Bridge that evening were under any illusion that this was a TOTALLY seperate and orchestrated operation to inflict commercil damage upon the City and it's inhabitants.

And,given the compliance of Senior Garda Management,it succeeded on all counts.

kub · 16-12-2014 7:49pm

No surprise to see The Gardaí wearing their high visibility jackets with their ID numbers prominent for all to see on their shoulders.

While 'the water protesters' wear hoddies to conceal their identities and as usual selective as to what they post online.

16-12-2014 8:50pm

The policing of the protest was well planned and for the most part was peaceful. Do people know how many people it takes to control even a single no compliant person? How many Gardaí would have been needed to clear the bridge? Would it not have provoked others still around from the protest to come down and support the 'protesters'? We like to think these things are simple and easily resolved, but on a day like last Wednesday there is a lot more to factor in.

POU /ERU under fire

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