POU /ERU under fire

AlekSmart · 17-12-2014 1:13pm

foreign wrote: »

The policing of the protest was well planned and for the most part was peaceful. Do people know how many people it takes to control even a single no compliant person? How many Gardaí would have been needed to clear the bridge? Would it not have provoked others still around from the protest to come down and support the 'protesters'? We like to think these things are simple and easily resolved, but on a day like last Wednesday there is a lot more to factor in.

I'd agree with all of the above caveats.

However,these are not new or unknown in the current climate.

These incidents are most certainly NOT simply or easily resolved,but this particular inaction on the part of the Authorities has made similar occurences now far more likely in future scenario's.

For most of the timeline of the City Centre sit-downs,particularly in the peak-time the GENERAL PUBLIC reaction may well have been more supportive than one might suppose.

There were a LOT of ordinary,uninterested,non-protesting people in and around Dublin City Centre on that Wednesday evening...people at Work,College,Shopping who were mightily angered at the collapse of Public Transport,for example.

Was the preservation and furtherance of these "Ordinary" citizens rights given any consideration by the Senior Garda Officers ?

The incidents I refer to HAVE to be seperated from the general Water Protest March,becuase they WERE seperate and merited a seperate Garda response of some nature,rather than one of faciliation over a period of several hours.

The debate,at this juncture,is well moot,as it has all come and gone,a nine-day wonder,now forgotten by most.

However,I can feel quite confident that many interested parties have drawn their own conclusions from the "Non-Confrontational" Policy of Senior Garda Management on the day.

17-12-2014 7:26pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'd agree with all of the above caveats.

However,these are not new or unknown in the current climate.

These incidents are most certainly NOT simply or easily resolved,but this particular inaction on the part of the Authorities has made similar occurences now far more likely in future scenario's.

For most of the timeline of the City Centre sit-downs,particularly in the peak-time the GENERAL PUBLIC reaction may well have been more supportive than one might suppose.

There were a LOT of ordinary,uninterested,non-protesting people in and around Dublin City Centre on that Wednesday evening...people at Work,College,Shopping who were mightily angered at the collapse of Public Transport,for example.

Was the preservation and furtherance of these "Ordinary" citizens rights given any consideration by the Senior Garda Officers ?

The incidents I refer to HAVE to be seperated from the general Water Protest March,becuase they WERE seperate and merited a seperate Garda response of some nature,rather than one of faciliation over a period of several hours.

The debate,at this juncture,is well moot,as it has all come and gone,a nine-day wonder,now forgotten by most.

However,I can feel quite confident that many interested parties have drawn their own conclusions from the "Non-Confrontational" Policy of Senior Garda Management on the day.

Tell me where you would have got the resources to do it?

Has any other country managed to overcome this issue?

AlekSmart · 20-12-2014 2:33am

foreign wrote: »

Tell me where you would have got the resources to do it?

Has any other country managed to overcome this issue?

Whether other countries overcome issues is of no relevance to my point re the 10th Dec carry-on.

However,it has to be said that other EU countries would have been far less likely to facilitate the shutdown of their Main Street as well as a significant portion of their cities Public Transport.

The issue of resources is certainly open for debate,however whilst substantial Garda resources were deployed in relation to the march proper,NONE were allocated to the codology on O'Connell Bridge .

Therefore the major question I have,is whether the Senior Garda Officers who decided to be non-confrontational,would care to explain to the General Public,who were inconvienenced in their thousands,the rationale behind their decision.

In circumstances such as prevailed on the 10Th,the message clearly sent out by Senior Garda Management was one of not being confident of their own situation...I sincerely believe this was a MAJOR error of judgement on their part,and one which will come back to haunt them.(And every other non-protesting citizen too !)

Little CuChulainn · 20-12-2014 11:21am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Therefore the major question I have,is whether the Senior Garda Officers who decided to be non-confrontational,would care to explain to the General Public,who were inconvienenced in their thousands,the rationale behind their decision.

Preserving the peace I suspect.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 20-12-2014 11:31am

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Preserving the peace I suspect.

That would be a bit of a cop out on their part though, you could use that for countless situations, from the smallest of situations to not tackling organised crime etc.

21-12-2014 5:11pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Whether other countries overcome issues is of no relevance to my point re the 10th Dec carry-on.

However,it has to be said that other EU countries would have been far less likely to facilitate the shutdown of their Main Street as well as a significant portion of their cities Public Transport.

The issue of resources is certainly open for debate,however whilst substantial Garda resources were deployed in relation to the march proper,NONE were allocated to the codology on O'Connell Bridge .

Therefore the major question I have,is whether the Senior Garda Officers who decided to be non-confrontational,would care to explain to the General Public,who were inconvienenced in their thousands,the rationale behind their decision.

In circumstances such as prevailed on the 10Th,the message clearly sent out by Senior Garda Management was one of not being confident of their own situation...I sincerely believe this was a MAJOR error of judgement on their part,and one which will come back to haunt them.(And every other non-protesting citizen too !)

Most other European cities don't have the majority of their public transport running down one street. Their shopping areas are also spread out.

And London does suffer with Oxford Street getting shut down by protesters, and Piccadilly and Trafalgar Square.

The priority on that Wednesday was the large gathering of people in Merrion Square and the manning of barricades at the Kildare Street side of the Dail. And the Gardaí on Kildare Street were under pressure from the first march of the day arriving, they were on that front line for five hours. Should their support have been diverted?

As for being non confrontational, the public order unit were out for a good bit of the day behind the lads on Kildare Street.

AlekSmart · 22-12-2014 10:57pm

foreign wrote: »

.

The priority on that Wednesday was the large gathering of people in Merrion Square and the manning of barricades at the Kildare Street side of the Dail. And the Gardaí on Kildare Street were under pressure from the first march of the day arriving, they were on that front line for five hours. Should their support have been diverted?

As for being non confrontational, the public order unit were out for a good bit of the day behind the lads on Kildare Street.

Short answer ?

Yes they should have been diverted.

However,could it be this decision was short-circuted by a lack of manpower resources on the day ?

This March was flagged for over a Month,it was always going to be a large event,it was always going to carry with it a substantial risk of public order incidents.

The many disparate groups never made any secret of this being a mould-breaking Protest with all of the connotations that carries.

I'm suggesting that the Kildare Street pressures foreign cites are indicative of Senior Garda Management failing to plan effectively for the event,and subsequently using the relatively trouble-free status of that main event to downplay the results of their inaction on the fringes.

The inevitable spin-off from this,is a significant rise in the self-confidence of the anarchist brigade to stage another spectacular at will.

bravestar · 23-12-2014 12:49am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Short answer ?

Yes they should have been diverted.

However,could it be this decision was short-circuted by a lack of manpower resources on the day ?

This March was flagged for over a Month,it was always going to be a large event,it was always going to carry with it a substantial risk of public order incidents.

The many disparate groups never made any secret of this being a mould-breaking Protest with all of the connotations that carries.

I'm suggesting that the Kildare Street pressures foreign cites are indicative of Senior Garda Management failing to plan effectively for the event,and subsequently using the relatively trouble-free status of that main event to downplay the results of their inaction on the fringes.

The inevitable spin-off from this,is a significant rise in the self-confidence of the anarchist brigade to stage another spectacular at will.

Have you ever considered, just maybe, the the people in charge of this actually know what they are doing and that your opinion, which you are entitled to, is wrong?

When was the last time you tried to arrest someone in a heated crowd situation? People do funny things when they are in a crowd that they would not ordinarily do.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 23-12-2014 1:48am

Reflecting on this I guess there can be a divide sometimes, but of course not always, between preserving the peace and law enforcement.

Giving the Gardai the benefit of the doubt the way they handled things definitely fell under the banner of preserving the peace, at maybe the cost of law enforcement.

I'm on the mobile now but do the Gardai have a mission statement? Maybe they are aiming at preserving the peace even if it does mean not enforcing the law at every occasion.

Being honest, I don't agree with it, I believe it to be a slippery slope and giving credibility and support to extremist elements, a surrender of sorts. And if future demonstrations spiral out of control it will help to push people's calls for stricter law enforcement.

But policing has always been a contentious issue in this country and people always have strong views on it. I grew up in a very rural and pretty right wing part of Kerry, the average person here would possibly have a very different opinion to the disruption in Dublin than some of the people that were in Dublin that day.

As the saying goes one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. We're probably all equally right and wrong.

bravestar · 23-12-2014 2:18am

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

Reflecting on this I guess there can be a divide sometimes, but of course not always, between preserving the peace and law enforcement.

Giving the Gardai the benefit of the doubt the way they handled things definitely fell under the banner of preserving the peace, at maybe the cost of law enforcement.

I'm on the mobile now but do the Gardai have a mission statement? Maybe they are aiming at preserving the peace even if it does mean not enforcing the law at every occasion.

Being honest, I don't agree with it, I believe it to be a slippery slope and giving credibility and support to extremist elements, a surrender of sorts. And if future demonstrations spiral out of control it will help to push people's calls for stricter law enforcement.

But policing has always been a contentious issue in this country and people always have strong views on it. I grew up in a very rural and pretty right wing part of Kerry, the average person here would possibly have a very different opinion to the disruption in Dublin than some of the people that were in Dublin that day.

As the saying goes one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. We're probably all equally right and wrong.

Mission statement: Working with communities to protect and serve.

There is a time to be heavy handed and a time for a softer approach. Finding the balance to that is key and to be honest I'm getting tired of all the armchair generals thinking they know best.

Would you try and tell a doctor how to perform surgery?

Ps super sonic, those last two bits are not aimed at you.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 23-12-2014 3:15am

True, we could go around in circles here.

Thankfully this thread of opinions on heavy versus soft policing focuses on relatively very minor incidents. And we could all easily agree that we want things to stay like that. :-)

Take the extreme of poor Mexico. Go soft, allow the cartels to operate freely but avoid casualties, or go hard like the last 2 presidents, crack down on the cartels but have a state of almost civil war in some areas with heavy loss of life.

AlekSmart · 25-12-2014 3:37pm

bravestar wrote: »

Mission statement: Working with communities to protect and serve.

There is a time to be heavy handed and a time for a softer approach. Finding the balance to that is key and to be honest I'm getting tired of all the armchair generals thinking they know best.

Would you try and tell a doctor how to perform surgery?

Ps super sonic, those last two bits are not aimed at you.

I'm assuming they were "aimed at" me

?

Whether I can be regarded as an "Armchair General" is moot (I certainly don't post with that intention).

I continue to suggest (as is my right,apparently) that the Senior Garda Management explanation for their decision not to intervene in the specific disruptive protests in the City Centre fails to measure up to their own Mission Statement (Or my interpretation of it).

It's a far cry from "telling a doctor how to perform surgery",as I am in no way suggesting that I have expertise in Public Order Maintenance,except for much first-hand experience of exactly how quick,and how seriously,things can go wrong in that area.

Given that the Senior Garda Management's,non-confrontational approach,worked so well to serve & protect the activist community,surely some apology,mea-cupla,or reassurance could have been offered to those Non-Activist,Non-Protesting members of the Public who's constitutional rights were well n truly trampled over on the 10th December.

Perhaps,if even ONE of those Senior Garda Managers,were to step up and explain their decision to those Other members of the community they were "working with" to protect and serve,it might help to reassure some of the "Ordinaries" that their rights also matter ?

AlekSmart · 01-01-2015 2:20pm

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

True, we could go around in circles here.

Thankfully this thread of opinions on heavy versus soft policing focuses on relatively very minor incidents. And we could all easily agree that we want things to stay like that. :-)

Take the extreme of poor Mexico. Go soft, allow the cartels to operate freely but avoid casualties, or go hard like the last 2 presidents, crack down on the cartels but have a state of almost civil war in some areas with heavy loss of life.

Interesting to read this account of what transpired after some limited and belated Garda action in the City Centre on the 10Th December..

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/woman-charged-with-assaulting-garda-during-water-protest-1.2034515

Gardaí objected to bail. However, the judge refused to remand the young woman in custody. Following arguments from defence solicitor Stephen O’Mahony, he also refused to impose conditions of bail sought by gardaí which were a ban from the Dublin 2 area and a curfew.

Gardaí objected to bail being granted to her father, Stephen Bennett (43), also of Pearse Green, Sallynoggin, who was charged with failing to leave the vicinity of Burgh Quay, Dublin 2, and preventing the passage of a garda van.

Gda Anthony Brazil said Mr Bennett was in a “break-away” group and was, “arrested, protesting on the street, having been asked to desist in his behaviour”.

He said Mr Bennett was cautioned twice and continued sitting on the street blocking traffic.

Additional traffic diversions had to be set up as a result, Gda Brazil said.

Just in case some posters feel that I'm being unfair to Gardai,I fully accept that rank & flile members followed their orders to the letter.

I would also take issue with Judge Micheal Walsh's remarks regarding peaceful protest in this specific incidence.

Judge Walsh remarked, “peaceful protests have always been part of our history” and granting bail, he said Mr Bennett is not a flight risk. The father and daughter were ordered appear again on January 8th.

The main part of this particular Peaceful Protest had proceeded in just that manner,however the cases before the Court appear to refer to the secondary protests which even the main organizers were keen to distance themselves from.

My belief is that Judge Walsh's reported remarks failed to take due account of the,equally important ,historical rights of a majority of non-protesting ordinary citizens ON THAT DAY.

Following on from this case,It is perhaps now easier to see what informed the Senior Garda Management decision to cede the ground to the activists on the day,and to my mind,it is quite an appaling vista indeed in terms of public expectation of Garda protection.

Locust · 05-01-2015 4:13pm

Was anyone seriously hurt? it wasn't exactly Love Ulster, i was there and found it overall very peaceful...
People do have a right to protest don't they? Traffic diversions were in place... the whole country knew this was happening.

There was a 'breakaway' sit down protest later on and they were removed... sorry if that didn't happen fast enough?

Considering the volume of people and all that could have went wrong Gardai did a good job in policing the event.

Do you really think it would have been in the best interest of the country to adopt an zero tolerance aggressive approach at this protest? Line up the public order unit with shields and batons and force mostly ordinary decent men women and kids off the street? That would only incite a riot...

05-01-2015 5:38pm

Locust wrote: »

Was anyone seriously hurt? it wasn't exactly Love Ulster, i was there and found it overall very peaceful...
People do have a right to protest don't they? Traffic diversions were in place... the whole country knew this was happening.

There was a 'breakaway' sit down protest later on and they were removed... sorry if that didn't happen fast enough?

Considering the volume of people and all that could have went wrong Gardai did a good job in policing the event.

Do you really think it would have been in the best interest of the country to adopt an zero tolerance aggressive approach at this protest? Line up the public order unit with shields and batons and force mostly ordinary decent men women and kids off the street? That would only incite a riot...

His problem lies with the break away protest, not the main one.

Grizzly 45 · 12-01-2015 11:15pm

Schindlers Pissed wrote: »

Imagine that happening a Senator or whatever in the USA? The PO Unit would be the least of the "peaceful" protesters worries…..there would be shots fired…….

Er no there wouldnt have been any shots fired because simply the personally hired protection detail paid for by the senator themselves .[You dont get secret service protection until you are president, the vice prez, secetary of state .etc]
If they were anyway clued into their job wouldnt have allowed their principal into a situation like jobstown in the first place!Secondly they wouldnt have allowed thenselves to be caught in a mob situation and wouldnt have parked the car in a position to be trapped and surrounded.
First sign of problems its time to hit the road or get back inside the building and call for massive back up.
But this was the first time something like this happened in the land of "ah shure nuthin will happen"So its not surprising it became a bit messy.First time for everything...
Compared to most places this was indeed peaceful.Anywhere else "Iphone Joane" would have been viewing the protestor s feet for a few hours in an upside down car while bricks and cs gas canisters were thrown .

Capri · 19-01-2015 10:17pm

French CRS ( Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité )

jimmythedivil · 24-01-2015 2:03am

For the last few years almost every few days I see the ARU OR ERU Volvos driving up and down with the occupants looking absolutely bored out of there minds. I can only think of a couple of occasions in the last couple of years when these guys would have actually been needed locally. The situation that most comes to mind was when that lunatic robbed the Garda car and drove to Cork Airport, robbed another car and started driving around the runway while a jet filled with fuel was just sitting there. Look at the youtube video of that incident and see how the security forces seemed to be utterly incapable of intervening. If ever there was a reason for the well armed and well trained Garda response units to intervene this was it and yet they were powerless and pretty much just had to sit there while this mad man put people's lives at risk.

From what I can see the ARU and ERU were created as a response to an increasingly lawless situation in Limerick and other places which has since died down. Remember Willie O'Dea talking of putting the army on the streets at one stage! This is Ireland. Regardless of what the Sunday World or Love Hate watchers would like you to believe this is one of the safest countries in Europe if not the world. We don't have the same urban ghettoisation that they have in the UK and other places.

We don't need huge tank like Garda vehicles with policemen dressed as soldiers sitting in them bored off their arses driving up and down Irish cities for hours. It's a huge waste of money and resources. What we need is a dedicated reaction force that can respond only in emergency situations like the one in Cork Airport a few years ago AND be given the power to intervene.

bravestar · 24-01-2015 2:21am

jimmythedivil wrote: »

For the last few years almost every few days I see the ARU OR ERU Volvos driving up and down with the occupants looking absolutely bored out of there minds. I can only think of a couple of occasions in the last couple of years when these guys would have actually been needed locally. The situation that most comes to mind was when that lunatic robbed the Garda car and drove to Cork Airport, robbed another car and started driving around the runway while a jet filled with fuel was just sitting there. Look at the youtube video of that incident and see how the security forces seemed to be utterly incapable of intervening. If ever there was a reason for the well armed and well trained Garda response units to intervene this was it and yet they were powerless and pretty much just had to sit there while this mad man put people's lives at risk.

From what I can see the ARU and ERU were created as a response to an increasingly lawless situation in Limerick and other places which has since died down. Remember Willie O'Dea talking of putting the army on the streets at one stage! This is Ireland. Regardless of what the Sunday World or Love Hate watchers would like you to believe this is one of the safest countries in Europe if not the world. We don't have the same urban ghettoisation that they have in the UK and other places.

We don't need huge tank like Garda vehicles with policemen dressed as soldiers sitting in them bored off their arses driving up and down Irish cities for hours. It's a huge waste of money and resources. What we need is a dedicated reaction force that can respond only in emergency situations like the one in Cork Airport a few years ago AND be given the power to intervene.

Firstly, Its RSU, regional support unit, not ASU. They have been involved in a hell of a lot more than you seem to be aware of.

Secondly, the ERU, perform a completely different role and were not created, they existed before, because of anything to do with limerick.

24-01-2015 11:03am

jimmythedivil wrote: »

For the last few years almost every few days I see the ARU OR ERU Volvos driving up and down with the occupants looking absolutely bored out of there minds. I can only think of a couple of occasions in the last couple of years when these guys would have actually been needed locally. The situation that most comes to mind was when that lunatic robbed the Garda car and drove to Cork Airport, robbed another car and started driving around the runway while a jet filled with fuel was just sitting there. Look at the youtube video of that incident and see how the security forces seemed to be utterly incapable of intervening. If ever there was a reason for the well armed and well trained Garda response units to intervene this was it and yet they were powerless and pretty much just had to sit there while this mad man put people's lives at risk.

From what I can see the ARU and ERU were created as a response to an increasingly lawless situation in Limerick and other places which has since died down. Remember Willie O'Dea talking of putting the army on the streets at one stage! This is Ireland. Regardless of what the Sunday World or Love Hate watchers would like you to believe this is one of the safest countries in Europe if not the world. We don't have the same urban ghettoisation that they have in the UK and other places.

We don't need huge tank like Garda vehicles with policemen dressed as soldiers sitting in them bored off their arses driving up and down Irish cities for hours. It's a huge waste of money and resources. What we need is a dedicated reaction force that can respond only in emergency situations like the one in Cork Airport a few years ago AND be given the power to intervene.

Don't rely on the media to know the full role of particular unit. They do so much more than is publicised.

weadick · 24-01-2015 12:23pm

foreign wrote: »

Don't rely on the media to know the full role of particular unit. They do so much more than is publicised.

Hah ya right. We laugh at the army for being paid to play toy soldiers but the Guards have free reign to waste public money on whatever they want? They should be disbanded asap along with the traffic corps.

24-01-2015 1:35pm

weadick wrote: »

Hah ya right. We laugh at the army for being paid to play toy soldiers but the Guards have free reign to waste public money on whatever they want? They should be disbanded asap along with the traffic corps.

They provide armed support for regular gardai. They provide armed support for sieges and support for searches.

And we can see the lack of traffic corp numbers is leading to an increase of deaths on our roads already. I bet you are the first to give out when there are no gardaí around to deal with dangerous driving on the roads.

You also have the air of a troll with comments like you have made.

coach23 · 31-01-2015 6:49pm

weadick wrote: »

Hah ya right. We laugh at the army for being paid to play toy soldiers but the Guards have free reign to waste public money on whatever they want? They should be disbanded asap along with the traffic corps.

genius post

Capri · 01-02-2015 8:02am

Don't rely on the media to know the full role of particular unit. They do so much more than is publicised

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/thousands-take-to-the-streets-again-over-charges-30954020.html

Pic shows 'the bearded one' in full flight with the woman behind trying to restrain him ? But it shows what members are faced with in a 'peaceful' protest :rolleyes:

roundymac · 05-02-2015 1:57pm

From what I can see the ARU and ERU were created as a response to an increasingly lawless situation in Limerick and other places which has since died down. Remember Willie O'Dea talking of putting the army on the streets at one stage!

No it has not, Limerick about to kick off again, new thugs on the block starting to take up where the others left off.

kub · 05-02-2015 5:12pm

The ERU were set up long before the situation in Limerick developed. The RSU came into existence probably due to a serious lack of having the appropriately trained officers with the right tools available through out the country.

Capri · 01-03-2015 9:51am

Singapore riot police c.'64

POU /ERU under fire

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