JFK:Inside The Target Car - Discovery Channel UK 9pm tonight

meglome · 29-04-2009 4:13am #1

UK Premier tonight. Dunno if there's anything new in this but worth a look.

marco_polo · 29-04-2009 4:43pm

* Caution advised if you are a fan of this CT.

meglome · 29-04-2009 5:17pm

marco_polo wrote: »

* Caution advised if you are a fan of this CT.

Well they either use logic, evidence and the scientific method to come to their conclusions or they don't. If they do those things and show it was a lone shooter from the Book depository or they show something else I'll carefully listen. Given that other computer simulation I saw a couple of years back (can't find the link sorry) based on all available images and sound then I have a sneaky suspicion we won't be seeing a CT here.

Diogenes · 29-04-2009 5:58pm

It's an ABC Documentary It demolishes all the CTs.

The magic bullet is one of the 20th century's greatest strawman arguments, the only people who say the government claim the bullet magically swerved in and out, are conspiracy theorists. The Single Bullet theory is in fact the official line of argument.

Latchy · 29-04-2009 6:17pm

A lot of coincidences in that case , such as .

1 The Secret Servicemen who would normally have stood two a piece at the rear of the limo were told at Love field to ' stand down ' .( this can be seen in a you tube video )

2 The bubble top was removed on JFK's orders so he could see and be seen .

Strange when you think he had only said to his wife the previous day in houston '' were in nut country now '' .

He also told his SS men on the day '' all it takes is for somebody to kill the president is to get atop a building with a high powered rifle , not much you can do about that '' .

3 There were no SS men on top of any buildings in Dallas that day ,which would have had being and should have being normal procedure .His SS men had being out on the piss the night before drinking at Jack Rubys place.

4 The limo slows down on entering dealy plazza and slower again after first shot is heard.

5 Oswald supposedly get's off 3,4 shots in quick sucession with one perfect shot ( Man must have had nerves of steal )

6 The crucial head shot has the head jolting backwards which is a bit strange if the assassin is shooting from behind ( although kennedys back brace may have made him an easier, sitting upright, target )

None of this makes conspiricy seem certain .But normal procedures to protect the president were not used on the day and in the place were he needed it most .

That is fact

Penn · 29-04-2009 6:58pm

Thanks man, I hadn't heard of many of those before.

The one about him getting off some quick shots and having nerves of steel, wasn't he in the Marines? Although I'm using Full Metal Jacket as my reference here, so I may be wrong

Diogenes · 29-04-2009 7:17pm

Latchy wrote: »

A lot of coincidences in that case , such as .

1 The Secret Servicemen who would normally have stood two a piece at the rear of the limo were told at Love field to ' stand down ' .( this can be seen in a you tube video )

And this wasn't an isolated incident Secret Service records show the JFK disliked having secret service men ride alongside the car as he felt it made him look less masculine. (Search this forum topic has already been discussed)

2 The bubble top was removed on JFK's orders so he could see and be seen .

I don't believe there was a bubbletop for the Lincoln, and JFK regularly drove around in convertables.

Strange when you think he had only said to his wife the previous day in houston '' were in nut country now '' .

It's Texas its a weird state.

He also told his SS men on the day '' all it takes is for somebody to kill the president is to get atop a building with a high powered rifle , not much you can do about that '' .

Link please.

3 There were no SS men on top of any buildings in Dallas that day ,which would have had being and should have being normal procedure .

No. Having a secret service presence among the roof tops along a presidental motorcade was one of the many changes made after the assasination of JFK.

His SS men had being out on the piss the night before drinking at Jack Rubys place.

Again Link for this Urban Myth. Also if his agents arrived with him at love field how could they have been drinking in Rubys as well.

4 The limo slows down on entering dealy plazza and slower again after first shot is heard.

The video I linked to above directly refutes that.

5 Oswald supposedly get's off 3,4 shots in quick sucession with one perfect shot ( Man must have had nerves of steal )

He was a former Marine with the weapons' certification of "Sharpshooter".

6 The crucial head shot has the head jolting backwards which is a bit strange if the assassin is shooting from behind ( although kennedys back brace may have made him an easier, sitting upright, target )

Again the video above directly refutes that.

None of this makes conspiricy seem certain .But normal procedures to protect the president were not used on the day and in the place were he needed it most .

No the normal procedures were there. Normal as in they were normal before JFK was shot. Understandably after JFK was killed the SS changed "normall" procedures that you see as normal today. . You're using hindsight. The Agents should have been on the car. The car shouldn't have been a convertible. Since that day presidents don't travel in convertibles and agents travel alongside, but before JFK was shot this was not standard procedure.

Latchy · 29-04-2009 9:50pm

My knowledge of the kennedy assassination goes back to the 70s .A lot of what I picked up is from reading matter , books , magazines , newspapapers ,many tv documentries , long before internet and many more books have being written and information updated since . So that makes me one of millions ,your average assassination buff .

We also pre internet days ,didn't have the immense over view of assassination we have now . Remember that it wasn't till 1974 that the american public first saw the zapruder footage which was alegedly copied and re copied many times over the years .

=Diogenes;60040233]And this wasn't an isolated incident Secret Service records show the JFK disliked having secret service men ride alongside the car as he felt it made him look less masculine. (Search this forum topic has already been discussed

I know ,i may have contributed .

I don't believe there was a bubbletop for the Lincoln, and JFK regularly drove around in convertables..

Well I'm sorry but there was a bubbletop and it was removed on the morning because the sun had come out . Either that or all those jkf books I have read since the 70s are lying

It's Texas its a weird state.

All the more reason to have extra security for the president of the united states in ' injun ' country

Link please.

Links ? That's common knowledge which is mentioned in many many books and also on the many web sites .Bare with me .

No. Having a secret service presence among the roof tops along a presidental motorcade was one of the many changes made after the assasination of JFK.

Kennedy was advised by some top aides not to go to dallas .There was enough evidence to suggest their might be an attempt on jfk's life in a southern state such as Dallas or Miami . This is fact .Look it up on the many websites or the many tv documentry made .

Again Link for this Urban Myth. Also if his agents arrived with him at love field how could they have been drinking in Rubys as well

. So all the SS didn't arrive before the president but with him ? Security always get there before re the top man to check out the route and work with police .Every book I ever read on assassination has the SS in rubys bar night before 22.11.63 ????

The video I linked to above directly refutes that

. which video .Perhaps several hundred similar vids or more on you tube ?

He was a former Marine with the weapons' certification of "Sharpshooter".

I have it he was average .Average Jerk , average everything in fact .

Again the video above directly refutes that.

Link ?

No the normal procedures were there. Normal as in they were normal before JFK was shot. Understandably after JFK was killed the SS changed "normall" procedures that you see as normal today. . You're using hindsight. The Agents should have been on the car. The car shouldn't have been a convertible. Since that day presidents don't travel in convertibles and agents travel alongside, but before JFK was shot this was not standard procedure

Hindsight ? when the marines landed on Omaha beach on d-day they didn't have the benifit of hindsight,they had to get it right first time .

The president was entering nut country ,were on the morning of assassination pamplets were released saying '' JFK wanted for treason '' . What's the point of having security, having foot gaurds on side car if you dont use it . Ok, sure , everybody including the pres let their guard down on the day but JKF had many enimies ,hoover, castro , mafia ,fbi/cia , some military top brass and others who would gladly have like him bumped off .The man was hated by many .

Were better to do it in ' injun' country and blame it on some red neck pasty (oswald) who is then coincidently murdered due to incompetence of dallas police.

As I say ,a lot of coincidences .The limo does slow down after second shot but you have to view it in real time ,not slow to see .

Even if it was a lone gunman .Enough evidence out there to suggest many wanted JFK dead .

meglome · 29-04-2009 10:11pm

Well I can't fault what they did here. There have never been such an accurate reconstruction of the actual shots IMO. And all of this shows that the bullets did come from Book Depository and not from the grassy known. I'm not surprised because if you stop looking at the 'bigger picture' and look at the fine details it was unlikely to be any other way.

Diogenes · 29-04-2009 10:12pm

Latchy wrote: »

1974 that the american public first saw the zapruder footage which was alegedly copied and re copied many times over the years .

Of course it wasd copied and recopied. However Life magazine released stills within days of the assasination. It was only in 1975 that the footage was released on broadcast television. However the footage was reviewed by the Warren commission, researchers and dozens of journalistst.

Well I'm sorry but there was a bubbletop and it was removed on the morning because the sun had come out . Either that or all those jkf books I have read since the 70s are lying

And I've read plenty of JFK books. I recommend Case Closed

Please link to the bubble top. I presume you refer to the hardcover top. Yet the simple fact is, JFK often enjoyed traveling in an open topped car, without secret service running guard.

He did this in Miami were like you said he also had threats aganist his life.

All the more reason to have extra security for the president of the united states in ' injun ' country

Supposition.

Links ? That's common knowledge which is mentioned in many many books and also on the many web sites .Bare with me .

It's not common knowledge it's an urban myth. Name the agents.

Kennedy was advised by some top aides not to go to dallas .There was enough evidence to suggest their might be an attempt on jfk's life in a southern state such as Dallas or Miami . This is fact .Look it up on the many websites out there

Yes and in Miami JFK also insisted on the agents being removed from his car in Miami. The President received thousands of threats a year, why were the Miami or Dallas deemed more credible.

. So all the SS didn't arrive before the president but with him ? Security always get there before re the top man to check out the route and work with police .Every book I ever read on assassination has the SS in rubys bar night before 22.11.63 ????

So you'll be able to name the books, and agents?

. which video .Perhaps several hundred similar vids or more on you tube ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSBXW1-VGmM&feature=related

Thatg link from my post in at 6pm. With the incredibly detailed computer simulation of the shooting.

I have it he was average .Average Jerk , average everything in fact .

An average Marine marksman is still vastly superior to any amateur.

Link ?

In. The. Post. Above.

Hindsight ? when the marines landed on Omaha beach on d-day they didn't have the benifit of hindsight,they had to get it right first time .

Which they did while suffering massive casualties. What is the point of this non sequitur?

The president was entering nut country ,were on the morning of assassination pamplets were released saying '' JFK wanted for treason '' . What's the point of having security, having foot gaurds on side car if you dont use it . Ok, sure , everybody including the pres let their guard down on the day but JKF had many enimies ,hoover, castro , mafia ,fbi/cia , some military top brass and others who would gladly have like him bumped off .The man was hated by many .

Every president has enemies, and faces assasination attempts.

As I say ,a lot of coincidences .The limo does slow down after second shot but you have to view it in real time ,not slow to see .

No, No it doesn't. Again the computer simulation I've linked to for the third time doesn't show a slow down.

Even if it was a lone gunman .Enough evidence out there to suggest many wanted JFK dead .

And lots of people wanted Dubya dead, and Obama dead. Hinkley tried to kill Regan for Jody Foster. Trying to suggest JFK was unique in this respect, is just absurd.

humanji · 29-04-2009 11:03pm

Diogenes wrote: »

Please link to the bubble top. I presume you refer to the hardcover top. Yet the simple fact is, JFK often enjoyed traveling in an open topped car, without secret service running guard.

The show actually covered the bubbletop. They say the top was removed because the sun came out.

I thought it was a good show. Nothing mind-blowing, but interesting. Of course, there still remains teh questions as to why Oswald did it.

meglome · 29-04-2009 11:10pm

humanji wrote: »

The show actually covered the bubbletop. They say the top was removed because the sun came out.

I thought it was a good show. Nothing mind-blowing, but interesting. Of course, there still remains teh questions as to why Oswald did it.

A disillusioned loner shooting someone important, no way.

artvandulet · 30-04-2009 7:59pm

Diogenes wrote: »

An average Marine marksman is still vastly superior to any amateur.

A Posner fan are we?

Despite the fact that he was an average shot at best, his mannlicher-carcano rifle was not the rifle to be able to do what he supposedly did alone.

I missed this show. Anyone know of repeats?

thecommander · 30-04-2009 8:15pm

artvandulet wrote: »

I missed this show. Anyone know of repeats?

Its Discovery. They'll repeat the hell out of it.

humanji · 30-04-2009 8:35pm

I'm sure you could youtube it too.

meglome · 30-04-2009 8:37pm

artvandulet wrote: »

A Posner fan are we?

Despite the fact that he was an average shot at best, his mannlicher-carcano rifle was not the rifle to be able to do what he supposedly did alone.

I missed this show. Anyone know of repeats?

I thought it was very well done and I also thought very difficult to argue logically against. Let me know what you thought if you manage to see it.

Diogenes · 30-04-2009 9:21pm

artvandulet wrote: »

A Posner fan are we?

More Vincent Bugliosi

Despite the fact that he was an average shot at best,

Average is an relative term. Someone who has a driving license can be considered an average driver, right? Is someone who is a professional career as a mediocre touring car driver is a mediocre driver period? There are about a half dozen F1 drivers who have never even won a race, are they average drivers?

Oswald was an average marine marksman, but an average marine marksman is vastly superior to even a police officer who must spend half a day a year on the range, or any casual hunter.

Average is relative. Oswald was an average shot for a marine, but compared to any civilian his training made him an exceptional shot.

his mannlicher-carcano rifle was not the rifle to be able to do what he supposedly did alone.

And other marksmen with similar experience to Oswald have easily recreated the shots, within the timeframe, using the same weapon.

artvandulet · 30-04-2009 9:50pm

Diogenes wrote: »

And other marksmen with similar experience to Oswald have easily recreated the shots, within the timeframe, using the same weapon.

Have they? I'm not up on this as much as I used to be. Just stumbled upon this thread. But i remember in the HSCA report they tested marksmen who couldn't do it, so who can do it now?
They were able to hit a target with the 1st shot but never the 2nd-like Oswald.

"but no one came close to hitting the target on the second shot"

Diogenes · 30-04-2009 10:04pm

artvandulet wrote: »

Have they? I'm not up on this as much as I used to be. Just stumbled upon this thread. But i remember in the HSCA report they tested marksmen who couldn't do it, so who can do it now?
They were able to hit a target with the 1st shot but never the 2nd-like Oswald.

"but no one came close to hitting the target on the second shot"

The tests that called into question the second shot, assumed that Oswald chambered a round, fired, reloaded, fired, and then fired again. However the simple logic is if Oswald was planning on killing the president he already would have had a round in the breach.

Secondly the timing of shots is based on the 158 frames of the Zapruder footage. To figure out the timing of the shots is based on dividing the 158 frames by 24 (The frame rate of a standard film camera). However Zapruder was using a hand cranked 8mm camera whose frame rate runs at 16-18fps (any first year film student can tell you this) meaning then time frame can be anything from 18 to 25 seconds.

artvandulet · 30-04-2009 10:44pm

Diogenes wrote: »

The tests that called into question the second shot, assumed that Oswald chambered a round, fired, reloaded, fired, and then fired again. However the simple logic is if Oswald was planning on killing the president he already would have had a round in the breach.

Yeah I know that, the time frame is more like 8 seconds or something. but even in that time, it couldn't be done. the only few people who said it could were people like your friend Bugliosi.
Wasn't there test done at the rifle manufacturers in Italy a few years ago with the the gun and it took much longer than 8 seconds to get off 3 shots let alone aim.
Anyway, there is just so much other evidence (although you have to sift through the rumours, half truths and lies-especially on the internet!) pointing to a conspiracy of some kind.
I think this thread would go on forever if we didnt just agree to disagree!:D

King Mob · 30-04-2009 10:50pm

artvandulet wrote: »

Wasn't there test done at the rifle manufacturers in Italy a few years ago with the the gun and it took much longer than 8 seconds to get off 3 shots let alone aim.

Oh really? Here's another test http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62gvoKyODu4. 3 shots in 3.4 seconds with no marine training.

artvandulet · 30-04-2009 11:01pm

Ha! If Penn and Teller did it then thats it. Lone gunman acting alone. I'm converted!
You know that program was called 'Bull****' don't you

King Mob · 30-04-2009 11:05pm

artvandulet wrote: »

Ha! If Penn and Teller did it then thats it. Lone gunman acting alone. I'm converted!
You know that program was called 'Bull****' don't you

Yes.
And did they or did they not show it was possible to fire off 3 shots in under 8 seconds?

artvandulet · 30-04-2009 11:17pm

They showed that its possible to hit a stationary melon in that time, yes.

King Mob · 30-04-2009 11:21pm

artvandulet wrote: »

They showed that its possible to hit a stationary melon in that time, yes.

You where claiming that it was impossible to fire the weapon three times in eight seconds.

artvandulet wrote: »

Yeah I know that, the time frame is more like 8 seconds or something. but even in that time, it couldn't be done. the only few people who said it could were people like your friend Bugliosi.
Wasn't there test done at the rifle manufacturers in Italy a few years ago with the the gun and it took much longer than 8 seconds to get off 3 shots let alone aim.

Did the video show that this is not true?

Have you anything to back up your claim?

Mahatma coat · 01-05-2009 1:04am

King Mob wrote: »

Yes.
And did they or did they not show it was possible to fire off 3 shots in under 8 seconds?

no this they did spectacularly not prove

One issue with their 'demonstration'

LOAD THE RIFLE, then do your same nonchalant cock load fire routine at a moving target.

I'll atake it that a lot of the people who are claimin the Penn and teller thing as evidence have never really fired proper rifles

King Mob · 01-05-2009 1:35am

Mahatma coat wrote: »

no this they did spectacularly not prove

One issue with their 'demonstration'

LOAD THE RIFLE, then do your same nonchalant cock load fire routine at a moving target.

I'll atake it that a lot of the people who are claimin the Penn and teller thing as evidence have never really fired proper rifles

The argument I'm making is that it's entirely possible to fire off 3 rounds in 8 seconds.
The P&T video shows it is possible.

As does this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjvOuuqK59E
10 rounds in 15 seconds.
The guy furthest to the right does three shots in 5 seconds by my count.

Here's another one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LmYQhEfuxM&NR=1
5 shots in 7 seconds.

And another one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV5pSUlBz18&feature=related
10 shots in 10 seconds.

Can you show anything to suggest it is impossible?

Mahatma coat · 01-05-2009 1:43am

OK that second one is at a stationary target with a LEE ENFIELD .303, completley different rifle, different action, different sights.

So no, that dosent prove anything either.

the challenge from what I can see is

Get off 3 rounds in 5.4-8 seconds,accuratley, at a moving target, through an obscured view at an angle, at an equivelant distance, with the rifle that Oswald used.

for ****s and giggles, replicat the famous 'BACK AND TO THE LEFT' move that JFK makes in the zappruder film

meglome · 01-05-2009 1:50am

Mahatma coat wrote: »

for ****s and giggles, replicat the famous 'BACK AND TO THE LEFT' move that JFK makes in the zappruder film

You should look at the Discovery documentary then. Their findings after extensive testing and experimentation is what's in the Zapruder film is completely consistent with the shot from the Texas Book Depository and not from elsewhere as is claimed.

You see this is the bit I like, the extensive experimentation and testing, instead of just claiming it didn't happen.

Mahatma coat · 01-05-2009 1:54am

anyone got a link to a version of the docco that plays on google video, I can find it but it wont play

King Mob · 01-05-2009 1:57am

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK that second one is at a stationary target with a LEE ENFIELD .303, completley different rifle, different action, different sights.

So no, that dosent prove anything either.

They show guys with live rounds with a nonchalant cock load fire routine. So it is possible to fire that fast.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

the challenge from what I can see is

Get off 3 rounds in 5.4-8 seconds,accuratley, at a moving target, through an obscured view at an angle, at an equivelant distance, with the rifle that Oswald used.

Nope, the claim P&T where debunking was that it was mechanically impossible to fire the rifle that fast.

Have you anything to support that it is impossible?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

for ****s and giggles, replicat the famous 'BACK AND TO THE LEFT' move that JFK makes in the zappruder film

How about the one in the P&T video?

JFK:Inside The Target Car - Discovery Channel UK 9pm tonight

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