JFK:Inside The Target Car - Discovery Channel UK 9pm tonight

meglome

UK Premier tonight. Dunno if there's anything new in this but worth a look.

marco_polo

* Caution advised if you are a fan of this CT.

meglome

marco_polo wrote: »

* Caution advised if you are a fan of this CT.

Well they either use logic, evidence and the scientific method to come to their conclusions or they don't. If they do those things and show it was a lone shooter from the Book depository or they show something else I'll carefully listen. Given that other computer simulation I saw a couple of years back (can't find the link sorry) based on all available images and sound then I have a sneaky suspicion we won't be seeing a CT here.

Diogenes

It's an ABC Documentary It demolishes all the CTs.

The magic bullet is one of the 20th century's greatest strawman arguments, the only people who say the government claim the bullet magically swerved in and out, are conspiracy theorists. The Single Bullet theory is in fact the official line of argument.

Latchy

A lot of coincidences in that case , such as .

1 The Secret Servicemen who would normally have stood two a piece at the rear of the limo were told at Love field to ' stand down ' .( this can be seen in a you tube video )

2 The bubble top was removed on JFK's orders so he could see and be seen .

Strange when you think he had only said to his wife the previous day in houston '' were in nut country now '' .

He also told his SS men on the day '' all it takes is for somebody to kill the president is to get atop a building with a high powered rifle , not much you can do about that '' .

3 There were no SS men on top of any buildings in Dallas that day ,which would have had being and should have being normal procedure .His SS men had being out on the piss the night before drinking at Jack Rubys place.

4 The limo slows down on entering dealy plazza and slower again after first shot is heard.

5 Oswald supposedly get's off 3,4 shots in quick sucession with one perfect shot ( Man must have had nerves of steal )


6 The crucial head shot has the head jolting backwards which is a bit strange if the assassin is shooting from behind ( although kennedys back brace may have made him an easier, sitting upright, target )

None of this makes conspiricy seem certain .But normal procedures to protect the president were not used on the day and in the place were he needed it most .

That is fact

Penn

Thanks man, I hadn't heard of many of those before.

The one about him getting off some quick shots and having nerves of steel, wasn't he in the Marines? Although I'm using Full Metal Jacket as my reference here, so I may be wrong

Diogenes

Latchy wrote: »

A lot of coincidences in that case , such as .

1 The Secret Servicemen who would normally have stood two a piece at the rear of the limo were told at Love field to ' stand down ' .( this can be seen in a you tube video )

And this wasn't an isolated incident Secret Service records show the JFK disliked having secret service men ride alongside the car as he felt it made him look less masculine. (Search this forum topic has already been discussed)

2 The bubble top was removed on JFK's orders so he could see and be seen .

I don't believe there was a bubbletop for the Lincoln, and JFK regularly drove around in convertables.

Strange when you think he had only said to his wife the previous day in houston '' were in nut country now '' .

It's Texas its a weird state.

He also told his SS men on the day '' all it takes is for somebody to kill the president is to get atop a building with a high powered rifle , not much you can do about that '' .

Link please.

3 There were no SS men on top of any buildings in Dallas that day ,which would have had being and should have being normal procedure .

No. Having a secret service presence among the roof tops along a presidental motorcade was one of the many changes made after the assasination of JFK.

His SS men had being out on the piss the night before drinking at Jack Rubys place.

Again Link for this Urban Myth. Also if his agents arrived with him at love field how could they have been drinking in Rubys as well.

4 The limo slows down on entering dealy plazza and slower again after first shot is heard.

The video I linked to above directly refutes that.

5 Oswald supposedly get's off 3,4 shots in quick sucession with one perfect shot ( Man must have had nerves of steal )

He was a former Marine with the weapons' certification of "Sharpshooter".

6 The crucial head shot has the head jolting backwards which is a bit strange if the assassin is shooting from behind ( although kennedys back brace may have made him an easier, sitting upright, target )

Again the video above directly refutes that.

None of this makes conspiricy seem certain .But normal procedures to protect the president were not used on the day and in the place were he needed it most .

No the normal procedures were there. Normal as in they were normal before JFK was shot. Understandably after JFK was killed the SS changed "normall" procedures that you see as normal today. . You're using hindsight. The Agents should have been on the car. The car shouldn't have been a convertible. Since that day presidents don't travel in convertibles and agents travel alongside, but before JFK was shot this was not standard procedure.

Latchy

My knowledge of the kennedy assassination goes back to the 70s .A lot of what I picked up is from reading matter , books , magazines , newspapapers ,many tv documentries , long before internet and many more books have being written and information updated since . So that makes me one of millions ,your average assassination buff .

We also pre internet days ,didn't have the immense over view of assassination we have now . Remember that it wasn't till 1974 that the american public first saw the zapruder footage which was alegedly copied and re copied many times over the years .

=Diogenes;60040233]And this wasn't an isolated incident Secret Service records show the JFK disliked having secret service men ride alongside the car as he felt it made him look less masculine. (Search this forum topic has already been discussed

I know ,i may have contributed .

I don't believe there was a bubbletop for the Lincoln, and JFK regularly drove around in convertables..

Well I'm sorry but there was a bubbletop and it was removed on the morning because the sun had come out . Either that or all those jkf books I have read since the 70s are lying

It's Texas its a weird state.

All the more reason to have extra security for the president of the united states in ' injun ' country

Link please.

Links ? That's common knowledge which is mentioned in many many books and also on the many web sites .Bare with me .

No. Having a secret service presence among the roof tops along a presidental motorcade was one of the many changes made after the assasination of JFK.

Kennedy was advised by some top aides not to go to dallas .There was enough evidence to suggest their might be an attempt on jfk's life in a southern state such as Dallas or Miami . This is fact .Look it up on the many websites or the many tv documentry made .

Again Link for this Urban Myth. Also if his agents arrived with him at love field how could they have been drinking in Rubys as well

. So all the SS didn't arrive before the president but with him ? Security always get there before re the top man to check out the route and work with police .Every book I ever read on assassination has the SS in rubys bar night before 22.11.63 ????

The video I linked to above directly refutes that

. which video .Perhaps several hundred similar vids or more on you tube ?

He was a former Marine with the weapons' certification of "Sharpshooter".

I have it he was average .Average Jerk , average everything in fact .

Again the video above directly refutes that.

Link ?

No the normal procedures were there. Normal as in they were normal before JFK was shot. Understandably after JFK was killed the SS changed "normall" procedures that you see as normal today. . You're using hindsight. The Agents should have been on the car. The car shouldn't have been a convertible. Since that day presidents don't travel in convertibles and agents travel alongside, but before JFK was shot this was not standard procedure

Hindsight ? when the marines landed on Omaha beach on d-day they didn't have the benifit of hindsight,they had to get it right first time .

The president was entering nut country ,were on the morning of assassination pamplets were released saying '' JFK wanted for treason '' . What's the point of having security, having foot gaurds on side car if you dont use it . Ok, sure , everybody including the pres let their guard down on the day but JKF had many enimies ,hoover, castro , mafia ,fbi/cia , some military top brass and others who would gladly have like him bumped off .The man was hated by many .

Were better to do it in ' injun' country and blame it on some red neck pasty (oswald) who is then coincidently murdered due to incompetence of dallas police.

As I say ,a lot of coincidences .The limo does slow down after second shot but you have to view it in real time ,not slow to see .

Even if it was a lone gunman .Enough evidence out there to suggest many wanted JFK dead .

meglome

Well I can't fault what they did here. There have never been such an accurate reconstruction of the actual shots IMO. And all of this shows that the bullets did come from Book Depository and not from the grassy known. I'm not surprised because if you stop looking at the 'bigger picture' and look at the fine details it was unlikely to be any other way.

Diogenes

Latchy wrote: »

1974 that the american public first saw the zapruder footage which was alegedly copied and re copied many times over the years .

Of course it wasd copied and recopied. However Life magazine released stills within days of the assasination. It was only in 1975 that the footage was released on broadcast television. However the footage was reviewed by the Warren commission, researchers and dozens of journalistst.

Well I'm sorry but there was a bubbletop and it was removed on the morning because the sun had come out . Either that or all those jkf books I have read since the 70s are lying

And I've read plenty of JFK books. I recommend Case Closed

Please link to the bubble top. I presume you refer to the hardcover top. Yet the simple fact is, JFK often enjoyed traveling in an open topped car, without secret service running guard.

He did this in Miami were like you said he also had threats aganist his life.

All the more reason to have extra security for the president of the united states in ' injun ' country

Supposition.

Links ? That's common knowledge which is mentioned in many many books and also on the many web sites .Bare with me .

It's not common knowledge it's an urban myth. Name the agents.

Kennedy was advised by some top aides not to go to dallas .There was enough evidence to suggest their might be an attempt on jfk's life in a southern state such as Dallas or Miami . This is fact .Look it up on the many websites out there

Yes and in Miami JFK also insisted on the agents being removed from his car in Miami. The President received thousands of threats a year, why were the Miami or Dallas deemed more credible.

. So all the SS didn't arrive before the president but with him ? Security always get there before re the top man to check out the route and work with police .Every book I ever read on assassination has the SS in rubys bar night before 22.11.63 ????

So you'll be able to name the books, and agents?

. which video .Perhaps several hundred similar vids or more on you tube ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSBXW1-VGmM&feature=related

Thatg link from my post in at 6pm. With the incredibly detailed computer simulation of the shooting.

I have it he was average .Average Jerk , average everything in fact .

An average Marine marksman is still vastly superior to any amateur.

Link ?

In. The. Post. Above.

Hindsight ? when the marines landed on Omaha beach on d-day they didn't have the benifit of hindsight,they had to get it right first time .

Which they did while suffering massive casualties. What is the point of this non sequitur?

The president was entering nut country ,were on the morning of assassination pamplets were released saying '' JFK wanted for treason '' . What's the point of having security, having foot gaurds on side car if you dont use it . Ok, sure , everybody including the pres let their guard down on the day but JKF had many enimies ,hoover, castro , mafia ,fbi/cia , some military top brass and others who would gladly have like him bumped off .The man was hated by many .

Every president has enemies, and faces assasination attempts.

As I say ,a lot of coincidences .The limo does slow down after second shot but you have to view it in real time ,not slow to see .

No, No it doesn't. Again the computer simulation I've linked to for the third time doesn't show a slow down.

Even if it was a lone gunman .Enough evidence out there to suggest many wanted JFK dead .

And lots of people wanted Dubya dead, and Obama dead. Hinkley tried to kill Regan for Jody Foster. Trying to suggest JFK was unique in this respect, is just absurd.

humanji

Diogenes wrote: »

Please link to the bubble top. I presume you refer to the hardcover top. Yet the simple fact is, JFK often enjoyed traveling in an open topped car, without secret service running guard.

The show actually covered the bubbletop. They say the top was removed because the sun came out.


I thought it was a good show. Nothing mind-blowing, but interesting. Of course, there still remains teh questions as to why Oswald did it.

meglome

humanji wrote: »

The show actually covered the bubbletop. They say the top was removed because the sun came out.


I thought it was a good show. Nothing mind-blowing, but interesting. Of course, there still remains teh questions as to why Oswald did it.

A disillusioned loner shooting someone important, no way.

artvandulet

Diogenes wrote: »

An average Marine marksman is still vastly superior to any amateur.

A Posner fan are we?

Despite the fact that he was an average shot at best, his mannlicher-carcano rifle was not the rifle to be able to do what he supposedly did alone.

I missed this show. Anyone know of repeats?

thecommander

artvandulet wrote: »

I missed this show. Anyone know of repeats?

Its Discovery. They'll repeat the hell out of it.

humanji

I'm sure you could youtube it too.

meglome

artvandulet wrote: »

A Posner fan are we?

Despite the fact that he was an average shot at best, his mannlicher-carcano rifle was not the rifle to be able to do what he supposedly did alone.

I missed this show. Anyone know of repeats?

I thought it was very well done and I also thought very difficult to argue logically against. Let me know what you thought if you manage to see it.

Diogenes

artvandulet wrote: »

A Posner fan are we?

More Vincent Bugliosi

Despite the fact that he was an average shot at best,

Average is an relative term. Someone who has a driving license can be considered an average driver, right? Is someone who is a professional career as a mediocre touring car driver is a mediocre driver period? There are about a half dozen F1 drivers who have never even won a race, are they average drivers?

Oswald was an average marine marksman, but an average marine marksman is vastly superior to even a police officer who must spend half a day a year on the range, or any casual hunter.

Average is relative. Oswald was an average shot for a marine, but compared to any civilian his training made him an exceptional shot.

his mannlicher-carcano rifle was not the rifle to be able to do what he supposedly did alone.

And other marksmen with similar experience to Oswald have easily recreated the shots, within the timeframe, using the same weapon.

artvandulet

Diogenes wrote: »

And other marksmen with similar experience to Oswald have easily recreated the shots, within the timeframe, using the same weapon.

Have they? I'm not up on this as much as I used to be. Just stumbled upon this thread. But i remember in the HSCA report they tested marksmen who couldn't do it, so who can do it now?
They were able to hit a target with the 1st shot but never the 2nd-like Oswald.

"but no one came close to hitting the target on the second shot"

Diogenes

artvandulet wrote: »

Have they? I'm not up on this as much as I used to be. Just stumbled upon this thread. But i remember in the HSCA report they tested marksmen who couldn't do it, so who can do it now?
They were able to hit a target with the 1st shot but never the 2nd-like Oswald.

"but no one came close to hitting the target on the second shot"

The tests that called into question the second shot, assumed that Oswald chambered a round, fired, reloaded, fired, and then fired again. However the simple logic is if Oswald was planning on killing the president he already would have had a round in the breach.

Secondly the timing of shots is based on the 158 frames of the Zapruder footage. To figure out the timing of the shots is based on dividing the 158 frames by 24 (The frame rate of a standard film camera). However Zapruder was using a hand cranked 8mm camera whose frame rate runs at 16-18fps (any first year film student can tell you this) meaning then time frame can be anything from 18 to 25 seconds.

artvandulet

Diogenes wrote: »

The tests that called into question the second shot, assumed that Oswald chambered a round, fired, reloaded, fired, and then fired again. However the simple logic is if Oswald was planning on killing the president he already would have had a round in the breach.

Yeah I know that, the time frame is more like 8 seconds or something. but even in that time, it couldn't be done. the only few people who said it could were people like your friend Bugliosi.
Wasn't there test done at the rifle manufacturers in Italy a few years ago with the the gun and it took much longer than 8 seconds to get off 3 shots let alone aim.
Anyway, there is just so much other evidence (although you have to sift through the rumours, half truths and lies-especially on the internet!) pointing to a conspiracy of some kind.
I think this thread would go on forever if we didnt just agree to disagree!:D

artvandulet

artvandulet wrote: »

Wasn't there test done at the rifle manufacturers in Italy a few years ago with the the gun and it took much longer than 8 seconds to get off 3 shots let alone aim.

Oh really? Here's another test http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62gvoKyODu4. 3 shots in 3.4 seconds with no marine training.

artvandulet

Ha! If Penn and Teller did it then thats it. Lone gunman acting alone. I'm converted!
You know that program was called 'Bull****' don't you

artvandulet

artvandulet wrote: »

Ha! If Penn and Teller did it then thats it. Lone gunman acting alone. I'm converted!
You know that program was called 'Bull****' don't you

Yes.
And did they or did they not show it was possible to fire off 3 shots in under 8 seconds?

artvandulet

They showed that its possible to hit a stationary melon in that time, yes.

artvandulet

artvandulet wrote: »

They showed that its possible to hit a stationary melon in that time, yes.

You where claiming that it was impossible to fire the weapon three times in eight seconds.

artvandulet wrote: »

Yeah I know that, the time frame is more like 8 seconds or something. but even in that time, it couldn't be done. the only few people who said it could were people like your friend Bugliosi.
Wasn't there test done at the rifle manufacturers in Italy a few years ago with the the gun and it took much longer than 8 seconds to get off 3 shots let alone aim.

Did the video show that this is not true?

Have you anything to back up your claim?

Mahatma coat

King Mob wrote: »

Yes.
And did they or did they not show it was possible to fire off 3 shots in under 8 seconds?

no this they did spectacularly not prove

One issue with their 'demonstration'

LOAD THE RIFLE, then do your same nonchalant cock load fire routine at a moving target.

I'll atake it that a lot of the people who are claimin the Penn and teller thing as evidence have never really fired proper rifles

Mahatma coat

Mahatma coat wrote: »

no this they did spectacularly not prove

One issue with their 'demonstration'

LOAD THE RIFLE, then do your same nonchalant cock load fire routine at a moving target.

I'll atake it that a lot of the people who are claimin the Penn and teller thing as evidence have never really fired proper rifles

The argument I'm making is that it's entirely possible to fire off 3 rounds in 8 seconds.
The P&T video shows it is possible.

As does this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjvOuuqK59E
10 rounds in 15 seconds.
The guy furthest to the right does three shots in 5 seconds by my count.

Here's another one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LmYQhEfuxM&NR=1
5 shots in 7 seconds.

And another one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV5pSUlBz18&feature=related
10 shots in 10 seconds.


Can you show anything to suggest it is impossible?

Mahatma coat

OK that second one is at a stationary target with a LEE ENFIELD .303, completley different rifle, different action, different sights.

So no, that dosent prove anything either.

the challenge from what I can see is

Get off 3 rounds in 5.4-8 seconds,accuratley, at a moving target, through an obscured view at an angle, at an equivelant distance, with the rifle that Oswald used.

for ****s and giggles, replicat the famous 'BACK AND TO THE LEFT' move that JFK makes in the zappruder film

meglome

Mahatma coat wrote: »

for ****s and giggles, replicat the famous 'BACK AND TO THE LEFT' move that JFK makes in the zappruder film

You should look at the Discovery documentary then. Their findings after extensive testing and experimentation is what's in the Zapruder film is completely consistent with the shot from the Texas Book Depository and not from elsewhere as is claimed.

You see this is the bit I like, the extensive experimentation and testing, instead of just claiming it didn't happen.

Mahatma coat

anyone got a link to a version of the docco that plays on google video, I can find it but it wont play

Mahatma coat

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK that second one is at a stationary target with a LEE ENFIELD .303, completley different rifle, different action, different sights.

So no, that dosent prove anything either.

They show guys with live rounds with a nonchalant cock load fire routine. So it is possible to fire that fast.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

the challenge from what I can see is

Get off 3 rounds in 5.4-8 seconds,accuratley, at a moving target, through an obscured view at an angle, at an equivelant distance, with the rifle that Oswald used.

Nope, the claim P&T where debunking was that it was mechanically impossible to fire the rifle that fast.

Have you anything to support that it is impossible?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

for ****s and giggles, replicat the famous 'BACK AND TO THE LEFT' move that JFK makes in the zappruder film

How about the one in the P&T video?

meglome

Mahatma coat wrote: »

anyone got a link to a version of the docco that plays on google video, I can find it but it wont play

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/jfk-inside-the-target-car-grassy-knoll-field-test.html

Not sure if this page has all the sections.

Mahatma coat

again its a Stationary target on the same plane as the shooter, and they are using
LEE ENFIELD .303 RIFLES, not the cheapo Italian Jobbie Oswald had

I could probably fire off 10 rounds that quickly meself with tha LE.303 in those conditions

could I hit a moving target at the distance JFK was, from a position equivelant to Oswalds, elevated at an angle and with an obscured line of sight, with 3 rounds, well it would be a tad more difficult, and before you ask, I have sexy little badge on my FCA No1's, its a crosshair with a Bow and Arrow, I got it one day in the Curragh for my outstandin ability to hit snap targets at 300M while standing with an FN FAL .308

so that would make me about as average as Oswald

Mahatma coat

Mahatma coat wrote: »

again its a Stationary target on the same plane as the shooter, and they are using
LEE ENFIELD .303 RIFLES, not the cheapo Italian Jobbie Oswald had

I could probably fire off 10 rounds that quickly meself with tha LE.303 in those conditions

And the P&T video shows that the rifle Oswald used was able to get three shots off in the 8 seconds.

So it's possible to fire 3 rounds in 8 seconds and still have time to aim.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

could I hit a moving target at the distance JFK was, from a position equivelant to Oswalds, elevated at an angle and with an obscured line of sight, with 3 rounds, well it would be a tad more difficult, and before you ask, I have sexy little badge on my FCA No1's, its a crosshair with a Bow and Arrow, I got it one day in the Curragh for my outstandin ability to hit snap targets at 300M while standing with an FN FAL .308

so that would make me about as average as Oswald

So it's entirely possible to make that shot?

Mahatma coat

the Penn and Teller video is Useless, they dont actually Load the Rifle so there is no relevance to their little demonstration.

Mahatma coat

Mahatma coat wrote: »

the Penn and Teller video is Useless, they dont actually Load the Rifle so there is no relevance to their little demonstration.

It shows the mechanism on that gun can work that fast.

Have you something that shows that it can't?

Do you believe it is impossible to make those shots?

Mahatma coat

do you understand the fundamental difference between an empty and a LOADED Rifle???

serious question.

Mahatma coat

Mahatma coat wrote: »

do you understand the fundamental difference between an empty and a LOADED Rifle???

serious question.

Yes MC I know the difference between a loaded rifle and an unloaded one.

The P&T clip clearly shows that the mechanism of the rifle is more than fast enough to fire 3 shots in 8 seconds.

Can you show anything that would show that the rifle cannot show live ammo that fast?

Mahatma coat

Seriously, have a read of what you've just discussed with me, and your requests for evidence, your liberal use of youtubery, and your unwavering belief inthe fact that you are right.

then have a look back over the rest of your posts in the forum

the hypocracy is palpable

You're goin back on ignore for another week.

Mahatma coat

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Seriously, have a read of what you've just discussed with me, and your requests for evidence, your liberal use of youtubery, and your unwavering belief inthe fact that you are right.

then have a look back over the rest of your posts in the forum

the hypocracy is palpable

You're goin back on ignore for another week.

All I'm asking you is to back up your points.

You believe it is impossible for the rifle used by Oswald to fire those shots in that time?

Why do you believe this and have you anything to back it up?


I'm not (and never did) claiming that these video prove Oswald could or did make those shots.
I am claiming that these videos show that it is at least possible to get that number of shots fired and on target.
Debunking the argument that "It was not possible for Oswald to fire the shots that fast."

Mahatma coat

OK I'll play along for a bit

so what is your position on this?
Did Oswald act alone?



I'm speakin from a point of experience, its extremley difficult to make the shots that Oswald made in the time that he made them with the acuracy that Oswald apparently acheived, and I am also awrer that one of his shots missed/ricoched and hit someone in the crowd.

I hunt regularly, I use simmilar calibre rounds, and simmilar bolt action rifles.

what you have shown is that it is possible to fire A RIFLE at that speed, but we dont see the targets they are shooting at & the guys in your videos are on the same plane as the targets, Oswald was at an extreme angle firing at a moving target through tree cover.

I'm not sayin tha Oswald didnt shoot at Kenedy, just that he wasnt the only one.

Have you ever fired a proper rifle (.22 does not count)?

Mahatma coat

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK I'll play along for a bit

so what is your position on this?
Did Oswald act alone?

There is no evidence to support the idea of a second shooter.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

I'm speakin from a point of experience, its extremley difficult to make the shots that Oswald made in the time that he made them with the acuracy that Oswald apparently acheived, and I am also awrer that one of his shots missed/ricoched and hit someone in the crowd.

Difficult but not impossible.
Would you say he could have made the shot?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

what you have shown is that it is possible to fire A RIFLE at that speed, but we dont see the targets they are shooting at & the guys in your videos are on the same plane as the targets, Oswald was at an extreme angle firing at a moving target through tree cover.

I provided videos that showed the rifle that oswald used could have been operated at that speed, videos that show people firing at comparable and great speeds.
I wasn't saying anything about the accuracy. Just that the argument "he couldn't have fired three shots in 8 seconds" does not stand up.

Do you believe he could not have fired his rifle that fast?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

I'm not sayin tha Oswald didnt shoot at Kenedy, just that he wasnt the only one.

And what leads you to this conclusion?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Have you ever fired a proper rifle (.22 does not count)?

No I haven't. Why does it matter?

Penn

from http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#marine

Accuracy of Weapon

It will be recalled from the discussion in chapter III that the assassin in all probability hit two out of the three shots during the maximum time span of 4.8 to 5.6 seconds if the second shot missed, or, if either the first or third shots missed, the assassin fired the three shots during a minimum time span of 7.1 to 7.9 seconds.795 A series of tests were performed to determine whether the weapon and ammunition used in the assassination were capable of firing the shots which were fired by the assassin on November 22, 1963. The ammunition used by the assassin was manufactured by Western Cartridge Co. of East Alton, III. In tests with the Mannlicher-Carcano C2766 rifle, over 100 rounds of this ammunition were fired by the FBI and the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the U.S. Army. There were no misfires.796

In an effort to test the rifle under conditions which simulated those which prevailed during the assassination, the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Laboratory had expert riflemen fire the assassination weapon from a tower at three silhouette targets at distances of 175, 240, and 265 feet. The target at 265 feet was placed to the right of the 240-foot target which was in turn placed to the right of the closest silhouette.797 Using the assassination rifle mounted with the telescopic sight, three marksmen, rated as master by the National Rifle Association, each fired two series of three shots. In the first series the firers required time spans of 4.6, 6.75, and 8.25 seconds respectively. On the second series they required 5.15, 6.45, and 7 seconds. None of the marksmen had any practice with the assassination weapon except for exercising the bolt for 2 or 3 minutes on a dry run. They had not even pulled the trigger because of concern about breaking the firing pin.798

The marksmen took as much time as they wanted for the first target and all hit the target.799 For the first four attempts, the firers missed the second shot. by several inches. 800 The angle from the first to the second shot was greater than from the second to the third shot and required a movement in the basic firing position of the marksmen.801 This angle was used in the test because the majority of the eyewitnesses to the assassination stated that there was a shorter interval between shots two and three than between shots one and two.802 As has been shown in chapter III, if the three shots were fired within a period of from 4.8 to 5.6 seconds, the shots would have been evenly spaced and the assassin would not have incurred so sharp an angular movement.803

Five of the six shots hit the third target where the angle of movement of the weapon was small.804 On the basis of these results, Simmons testified that in his opinion the probability of hitting the targets at the relatively short range at which they were hit was very high.805

Diogenes

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK

I'm speakin from a point of experience, its extremley difficult to make the shots that Oswald made in the time that he made them with the acuracy that Oswald apparently acheived, and I am also awrer that one of his shots missed/ricoched and hit someone in the crowd.

So you admit that he hit his intended target two out of four times?

what you have shown is that it is possible to fire A RIFLE at that speed, but we dont see the targets they are shooting at & the guys in your videos are on the same plane as the targets, Oswald was at an extreme angle firing at a moving target through tree cover.

It was neither an extreme angle or was there any tree cover. It was November remember? Leaves fall in Autumn in Dallas too. Do some basic fact checking.

Have you ever fired a proper rifle (.22 does not count)?

I'm sorry who was it on the CT opinion thread arguing that people shouldn't be allowed bring their own personal expertise onto a a subject matter. And you have the temerity to call King Mob a hypocrite?

bog master

As a long time, avid reader of the JFK assination, just a few points I would like to rebut.

Bubble top removal-numerous Secret Service Agents have testified that Kennedy did not order the removal of the bubble top. Source jfk lancer and Vincent M Palamara, who is considered an expert of the Secret Service of that time. Furthermore agents also testified that JFK never ordered agents off the rear of his car and numerous agents have been quoted he was very easy to deal with, he let them get on with their job.

Agents Drinking-it is well established and noted in the Warren Commission, House Assassination Comiitee Report and again thru V. Palamara that nine agents including four of those posted in the escort car were out drinking in A Fort Worth Bar until the early hours of the 22nd November,

Security on building roofs etc. Secret Service Agent Doster interviewed on the JFK trip to Nashville 18 May 1963 from the Nasville Banner newspaper.
" a complete check of the entire motorcade route was done (also other officers were assigned atop the Muncipal Terminal and other buildings along the route"

Diogenes

bog master wrote: »

As a long time, avid reader of the JFK assination, just a few points I would like to rebut.

Bubble top removal-numerous Secret Service Agents have testified that Kennedy did not order the removal of the bubble top. Source jfk lancer and Vincent M Palamara, who is considered an expert of the Secret Service of that time.

Who considers himself a expert on the Secret Service.

The fact is Kennedy often travelled in an convertible. There was nothing unusual about that. It was a mild and sunny day in Dallas, there is no reason to suspect anything other than Kennedy liked to travel open topped cars in good weather. Finally and most obviously the bubble top was not even bullet proof.

Furthermore agents also testified that JFK never ordered agents off the rear of his car and numerous agents have been quoted he was very easy to deal with, he let them get on with their job.

Utterly incorrect.

On November 18 in Tampa, the President ordered the two Secret Service agents off the back bumper of his car. The men from the Committee noted this change, which persisted at Fort Worth, San Antonio and Houston, but they maintained their original plan, which took into account the possibility of instantaneous intervention by the bodyguards.

since the advent of television, the protection of the President on American soil had become a difficult job. So that the public could see the President, his bodyguards were banished from the running-boards of the Presidential car.

Source

Agents Drinking-it is well established and noted in the Warren Commission, House Assassination Comiitee Report and again thru V. Palamara that nine agents including four of those posted in the escort car were out drinking in A Fort Worth Bar until the early hours of the 22nd November,

Is it possible that several agents acted improperly the night beforehand, however the specific claim is that the agents were drinking in Jack Ruby's bar. That hasn't been validated.

Security on building roofs etc. Secret Service Agent Doster interviewed on the JFK trip to Nashville 18 May 1963 from the Nasville Banner newspaper.
" a complete check of the entire motorcade route was done (also other officers were assigned atop the Muncipal Terminal and other buildings along the route"

Yes and would you like to know why?

The "Nashville Banner" from 1/23/92 carried a report that a mortal
threat to President Kennedy s life was hushed up by the Secret Service
when JFK visited Nashville, TN, on 5/18/63. The information came from
Rep. Bob Clement, the son of former Governor Frank Clement, JFK's host
during his 1963 visit to the state (both Clements met JFK on this trip
[inc. is a photo from the trip depicting both the elder Clement and his
son]). At Overton High School, a man approached the president with a gun
underneath a sack---he was grabbed by the Secret Service and the
incident itself was kept quiet in order to keep from encouraging similar
scares [think of all the copycat school shootings there are today
because of media hype!]. Bob Clement said: "Back in those days, privacy
was easier to accomplish". The paper interviewed the widow of Paul
Doster, the former SAIC of the Nashville office who died in
1987)---although Paul did not mention the incident to her, she said:
"But, you ve got to remember, he was pretty secretive, even to me." For
his part, Agent Doster told the "Nashville Banner" back on 5/18/63 that
"a complete check of the entire motorcade route" was done (also, other
[police] officers were assigned atop the municipal terminal and other
buildings along the route. These men took their posts at 8 a.m. and
remained at their rooftop stations until the president and his party
passed . In addition, a helicopter was used, similar to its use on
11/21/63 in San Antonio, TX). Agents/ important personnel on this trip
inc. Salinger, Behn, Kellerman, Greer, Roberts, DeFreese, Duncan,
Chandler, Yeager, Nunn, O Leary, Grant, Sulliman, Lawson, Olsson,
Paolella, Burns, and DNC advance man Jerry Bruno;

Source

In Nashville a direct credible threat had been thwarted on the Presidents life, of course in the following hours heightened security would occur.

artvandulet

King Mob wrote: »

You where claiming that it was impossible to fire the weapon three times in eight seconds.

Where did I claim that??

King Mob wrote: »

Have you anything to back up your claim?

I did however refer to tests that were done a few years ago in Italy. Found an article about it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1556184/Oswald-had-no-time-to-fire-all-Kennedy-bullets.html

Surely its better to rely on evidence by the likes of William Tobin and opinions like that of Gunny Hatchcock - the best sharpshooter of them all, than that of 2 Las Vegas Magicians


As for this statement

King Mob wrote: »

There is no evidence to support the idea of a second shooter.

I don't know where to start;)

artvandulet

artvandulet wrote: »

Where did I claim that??

Here:

artvandulet wrote: »

Yeah I know that, the time frame is more like 8 seconds or something. but even in that time, it couldn't be done. the only few people who said it could were people like your friend Bugliosi.
Wasn't there test done at the rifle manufacturers in Italy a few years ago with the the gun and it took much longer than 8 seconds to get off 3 shots let alone aim.

artvandulet wrote: »

I did however refer to tests that were done a few years ago in Italy. Found an article about it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1556184/Oswald-had-no-time-to-fire-all-Kennedy-bullets.html

19 seconds to cock and and fire a rifle three times? Seems a bit slow given the videos I linked.

artvandulet wrote: »

Surely its better to rely on evidence by the likes of William Tobin and opinions like that of Gunny Hatchcock - the best sharpshooter of them all, than that of 2 Las Vegas Magicians

It's not their opinion. Penn Jillette operated the mechanism three times in under 8 seconds. That's what the video shows do you agree? So it's not the mechanism that would slow Oswald down.
We've yet to see one explanation as to why it would be impossible for Oswald to get the shots off.

artvandulet wrote: »

As for this statement

I don't know where to start;)

Maybe with the verifiable evidence.

artvandulet

"but even in that time, it couldn't be done"
Wow. Is it not clear I was including aiming at a moving target in that statement? If you read the conversation I was replying to someone refering to Oswald.

King Mob wrote: »

We've yet to see one explanation as to why it would be impossible for Oswald to get the shots off.

There's expert opinion though - like Gunny Hatchcock. then there's all the science and pseudo-science, albeit some for and some against!
There's even evidence that he wasnt there. You know the whole lunch room thing...

bog master

Apologies for not quoting and highlighting points, a bit new to the board.

Vincent Palamara is considered by most JFK Assasination researchers as the expert in the area of the Secret Service and has written numerous articles and books.

The Presidential Car was a convertible with both plastic and metal removable roofs, and yes neither were bulletproof,

Ordering agents of the car and removal of bubbletop? , perhaps we wil never know as evidence at times is conflicting. http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/limo.html

I dont believe that the SS Agents were drinking in Jack Ruby's Club, but the fact they were out drinking is damning itself. The reactions of most of the agents was dismally slow and I sometimes do wonder about the actions of Bill Greer driving the car! And how many people know he was Irish, born in Tyrone?

artvandulet

artvandulet wrote: »

"but even in that time, it couldn't be done"
Wow. Is it not clear I was including aiming at a moving target in that statement? If you read the conversation I was replying to someone refering to Oswald.

artvandulet wrote: »

Wasn't there test done at the rifle manufacturers in Italy a few years ago with the the gun and it took much longer than 8 seconds to get off 3 shots let alone aim.

So please clarify this.
Do you believe it is impossible for the rifle to get off 3 shots in 8 seconds?

artvandulet wrote: »

There's expert opinion though - like Gunny Hatchcock. then there's all the science and pseudo-science, albeit some for and some against!
There's even evidence that he wasnt there. You know the whole lunch room thing...

Maybe you should elaborate.