Can you afford to take a job?

eco2live · 07-03-2011 3:45pm #1

Hey all,

I have a masters and 17 years experience and the most I can get offered at the moment for a management position is 50k. I know loads of people here are probably thinking that I should jump at it and would love to be in the same position but bear with me. The problem is that I was on nearly twice that previously and if I take such a serious step back-wards it could take years to get back to where I was. I feel I should wait until I get a decent offer even if it takes a few more months (or maybe I will have to emigrate).

I posted this as a reply on another thread. I am wondering if anyone else is in the same boat?

I have never been out of work before but I was made redundant last Christmas. I was surprised after the initial panic was over to see that I am not that worse off now even though I was on a very good salary. I am not saying that I am better off now. Far from it but I am saying that I am as well off as if I was to take a 50k job. Let me explain (the injustice of it for working people):

I have two children and I get the following

375 per week Job seekers (for whole family)
215 per week rent allowance
70 per week children's allowance

660 per week in total.

660 x 52 = 34320 per year (take home)

+ medical card. (annual benefit of about 2000 per year to my family)

+ Back to school allowance (200)

Total = 36520 (total income from state)

I have been offered 50K so far.

To explain a bit further one of my daughters require regular medical care that used to cost about 100 per month. Other medical costs averaged out about €50 per month.

Net income on 50k is €39,483
+ Childrens Allowance €2,880 (corrected as per comment)

Total €42,363

Out of that I would need to pay:

€2000 medical costs (per year)
€200 back to school (per year)
€200 per month costs for getting to work (€2,400)

Total €4,600 per year.

Take €4,600 from €42,363 = €37,763

Results:
€36,520 from state

€37,763 from €50k income PAYE

Difference with job = €1243 per year or €23 per week better off with the job as offered.

The figures above are rough but fairly accurate. I worked for 17 years and spent 8 years in total studying at night while paying for my own education and never took a cent from the state until I was made redundant. I have paid a shed load of tax over the years and over the past few years in particular.

I was panicing when I was let go and wondered how we would all cope. Truth was I was able to use redundancy to clear all loans and credit cards and dramatically reduce my outgoings. I also negotiated a rent reduction with landlord. I did not buy a house as they where over priced and I was happy to rent.

I can't wait to get back to work but if I can't get at least 75k I will have to emigrate as I am not going to be one of the working poor in Ireland when so much needs to be corrected and sorted out by government. I wonder how I would get on looking to buy a house on 50k a year even now in Ireland with a wife and two kids.

It is a pure load of bollox for the average working person in Ireland. I don't think a lot of people realize that the reason they can barely afford to survive, even on a good wage is because the lowest income in society is as I have detailed above (if your not working).

If I could achieve a better standard of living for the 50k then I would take it in a heartbeat. Its not the employers fault. Ireland is just still too expensive to live in that we all need this amount of money to keep our heads above water. If you look at buying power per income vs other country's that receive far less we are still poor. It is just not fair on the working family in Ireland. I have not been looking that long so far but is this the experience of other job seekers?

sunflower27 · 07-03-2011 4:11pm

For me, it's about pride. I'd much rather work than not work. And who is going to know what salary you are on if you took the 50k job and then applied for something that pays 75k.

And emigrating seems a tad dramatic. Do you mean uprooting your whole family or just you?

Radiotower · 07-03-2011 4:29pm

They say its easier to get a job when you have a job is what I'd be thinking. Is there much work in your field if you decide to stick it out? You must have a bit of savings too if you were on 100k and are renting a house that qualifies for rent allowance so maybe you can hang around for a while in hope.

I get the feeling that companies are using the recession to off-load the high earners and then recruiting people at a fraction of the cost or taking people on contract so they dont have to worry about holiday pay/benefits.

I take it your wife doesnt work and thats how you are entitled to all the extra benefits - I'm out of work, have a wife and 1 child and i only get the JB of 188Euro and am renting too but not entitled to any allowances as my wife is working.

Trish2007 · 07-03-2011 4:41pm

If I was you I would take the job. There is nothing to guarantee that you will continue to recieve the benefits you are getting at the moment.
Like you when I was first made redundant we werent much worse off but after the first year when our income was means tested things changed.

EL_Loco · 07-03-2011 4:53pm

I'd take it. stay sharp and keep your eye out. amazing what you forget when you're out of a working environment for a while.

you seem to have a decent grasp on figures, what would you say would be a "survivable" amount of state benefit for your situation? Never considered myself right wing but if people are turning their nose up at 50k jobs because the state benefit is a better option, then it's time to take a chunk out of what gets paid out IMO.

pokerface_me · 07-03-2011 5:01pm

If i was getting 500euro a week for my family on the labour and was offered a job taking home 400euro a week, there would be one outcome. And its take the job every time, pride man pride. Installing the work ethic in your children, they see daddy going to work and thats exactly what they will want to do. See daddy been a couch potato signing on every week, yep they will want to do that do.

Take the job have some self respect.

Rob113 · 07-03-2011 5:28pm

Not getting at you OP but if there are people who can turn down €50k per annum jobs because they are better off on the dole then the whole system is fukked completely. What incentives are there for anyone to get up off their arses and go looking for work when you can get as much on the dole?

I've never claimed the dole myself touch wood but I'm struggling very badly trying to provide for my family and pay a mortgage on €27k per annum. I'm up to my balls in debt. By the looks of things I'd be better off losing my job and going on the dole.

I think you should take the job for your own sanity and self respect, who knows you could end up back where you deserve to be after a year or two. Hope it all works out for you.

mikemac · 07-03-2011 5:34pm

"Never waste a good recession" and a lot of top earners like yourself OP have been let go. There's probably a graduate doing your job now on far less money, yes I know that's not quite redundancy but similar things are done

Anyway, it's easier to get a job when you have a job and it'll keep you active and up to date.
Take the job and within a year or so search hard for something better

eco2live · 07-03-2011 5:36pm

I do take your points people and agree with the principal. I know what you are saying about pride etc. but my daughters treatment costs money. Also my landlord said that once I am working again they would bring back up the rent (fair enough as they have been very good and are taking below the going rate at the moment).

My point is that we should not be worse off for accepting a reasonably well paid job rather then staying on the dole. Should social welfare be cut as an incentive to get people back to work? Will that bring down prices. Should the rent allowance be cut to stop propping up the banks? Are we going to see some of our previous FF TDs working in the local shop. Would they accept it?

I don't know what the answer is as doing that without sorting out the high cost of living is not fair on people without option of work.

I am climbing the walls at the moment and I am only out a couple of months. Its a kick in the nuts taking a such a serious step back-wards financially. Will more then likely give it a little more time as I don't want to make the wrong move and have a situation where a job does not work out on the back of a redundancy. I just hope things don't get worse in the job market. An agency I am dealing with also thinks that I would be underselling myself and should wait for the right position. I think I will just put a time line on it and if I don't get something sorted before a certain date I will step back my expectations (again)

mikemac · 07-03-2011 5:40pm

Sure take a six month contract with the agency and see how it goes.
Or....you can use this time to do some professional exams

Either way, don't feel guilty at all over what you're claiming
You pay top rate of tax for years and now it's there for you

eco2live · 07-03-2011 5:42pm

Rob113 wrote: »

Not getting at you OP but if there are people who can turn down €50k per annum jobs because they are better off on the dole then the whole system is fukked completely. What incentives are there for anyone to get up off their arses and go looking for work when you can get as much on the dole?

I've never claimed the dole myself touch wood but I'm struggling very badly trying to provide for my family and pay a mortgage on €27k per annum. I'm up to my balls in debt. By the looks of things I'd be better off losing my job and going on the dole.

I think you should take the job for your own sanity and self respect, who knows you could end up back where you deserve to be after a year or two. Hope it all works out for you.

Can't argue with that mate. I agree the whole system is ****ed up. Fair play for sticking with it. I respect that and hope to be working soon myself.

angelfire9 · 07-03-2011 5:55pm

Radiotower wrote: »

They say its easier to get a job when you have a job is what I'd be thinking.

I agree with this ^^^^^^^^

Radiotower wrote: »

I get the feeling that companies are using the recession to off-load the high earners and then recruiting people at a fraction of the cost or taking people on contract so they dont have to worry about holiday pay/benefits.

And this ^^^^^^^^^
this is what happened to me!
Company closed
2 weeks later it basically re-opened 2 units away from it's previous address
Same manager but only the minimum wage staff got jobs back

Radiotower wrote: »

I take it your wife doesnt work and thats how you are entitled to all the extra benefits - I'm out of work, have a wife and 1 child and i only get the JB of 188Euro and am renting too but not entitled to any allowances as my wife is working.

Same here!

I have a mortgage though currently being paid interest only via payment protection policy
For me to go back to work I need a job earning a minimum of 40k per annum to COVER COSTS
If i got one on €30k-€35k I'd probably take it though
We'd have to figure out a way of saving the €100 a week somewhere

ANYTHING is better than the dole!

mikemac · 07-03-2011 5:57pm

angelfire9 wrote: »

And this ^^^^^^^^^
this is what happened to me!
Company closed
2 weeks later it basically re-opened 2 units away from it's previous address
Same manager but only the minimum wage staff got jobs back

I'd be reporting that kind of messing.
Maybe nothing will be done but possibly Revenue will flag the company directors and audit them

angelfire9 · 07-03-2011 6:02pm

feelingstressed wrote: »

I'd be reporting that kind of messing.
Maybe nothing will be done but possibly Revenue will flag the company directors and audit them

Different company name
SLIGHTLY Different directors (Same family though)

Not illegal though I'm sure Revenue aren't impressed as the original company closed owing them a few quid

card123 · 07-03-2011 6:04pm

you forgot to add back in childrens allowance to take home pay from job comes to 38,523 then so in excess of income on the dole.

faw1tytowers · 07-03-2011 6:23pm

I wonder if these ppl who talk of pride have been in such a situation. Personally I would wait or negotiate the 50k job.. You are giving your family what it needs for now, why work your ass off never see your family for what seems a few extra bob but in fact with a job brings expenses. I am in a very similar situation and can understand where you come from.

Never mind this Pride and be proud that you are providing for your family as best you can... you are not a scrounger sitting on your ass you are looking for work, work that will be sufficient for your family needs and not over stretch you and your own health.

I hope things work out soon for you.

eco2live · 07-03-2011 6:49pm

card123 wrote: »

you forgot to add back in childrens allowance to take home pay from job comes to 38,523 then so in excess of income on the dole.

Your dead right. I would get that either way. (changed the post) thanks.

eco2live · 07-03-2011 7:02pm

faw1tytowers wrote: »

I wonder if these ppl who talk of pride have been in such a situation. Personally I would wait or negotiate the 50k job.. You are giving your family what it needs for now, why work your ass off never see your family for what seems a few extra bob but in fact with a job brings expenses. I am in a very similar situation and can understand where you come from.

Never mind this Pride and be proud that you are providing for your family as best you can... you are not a scrounger sitting on your ass you are looking for work, work that will be sufficient for your family needs and not over stretch you and your own health.

I hope things work out soon for you.

Thanks for that. My family are proud of me. They know I paid 20k+ and worked hard to get my masters. I worked a full time job and studied at night to get my degree in the first place. I have also worked a 50+ hour week for the past 17 years to get where I was. I have not got a sense of entitlement but more of a sense of worth. The only reason I was made redundant was they closed the department of company I was running (market reasons) and there was nothing else suitable in the company. Last year alone I paid more tax then I will receive from the state this year (never mind the previous years).

On a positive note I have lost 2 stone since leaving work and my health is a lot better as I am in the gym every day between job hunting. People are more then their jobs. I don't think I will bother etching my degrees or job title on my tombstone but maybe husband and father might get a mention

culsoh · 08-03-2011 10:29am

Am I right in saying that your on Jobseekers Benefit/Allowance??
Jobseekers is for JOB SEEKERS... You've been offered a job and you should take it. The days of €100K salaries are long gone and are very few and far between.
I understand that your daughters healthcare costs money but perhaps you will be eligable for a GP Visit card and remember the drugs payment scheme??
Remember that the likelyhood of the new government slashing social welfare payments are high - so your payment will inevitably go down at the end of the year - take this into account in your breakdown...

pokerface_me · 08-03-2011 10:41am

faw1tytowers wrote: »

I wonder if these ppl who talk of pride have been in such a situation. Personally I would wait or negotiate the 50k job.. You are giving your family what it needs for now, why work your ass off never see your family for what seems a few extra bob but in fact with a job brings expenses. I am in a very similar situation and can understand where you come from.

Never mind this Pride and be proud that you are providing for your family as best you can... you are not a scrounger sitting on your ass you are looking for work, work that will be sufficient for your family needs and not over stretch you and your own health.

I hope things work out soon for you.

Give over will ya. He has been offered a 50k job, looks like he is going to refuse it. So in my book he has gone from somebody who was down on his luck and unemployed to someone who thinks the state should look after him and his family because he is not getting paid enough and under selling himself in recession. I'm sorry eco2live i'm been brutally honest and it doesn't wash with me. Personally if i was a social welfare officer and knew your position i would stop all your payments and make you take the job, you and your family are not the state's responsibility, its your responsibility.

Sorry for been honest.

average_runner · 08-03-2011 11:04am

Sooner this government steps in and reduces the social welfare to the same level as germany the better.

I was unlucky to be unemployed for 5 months but as soon as a job came i took it. Nothing worst than waking up in the morning knowing you have no job to go too!

inforfun · 08-03-2011 11:21am

I agree with all the people saying it is better to work for your money.
But at the same time.... working 40 hours a week for €23 more than the OP gets now?

I dont think the dole itself, or better the amount, is such a problem. It is all the extra's that makes working for the OP (and i suppose there are a few people in the same boat) hardly beneficial.
You can talk pride and setting examples all you want. First thing most people look at is: what will I be better of when working 40 hours a week?

I honestly dont know what i would do in Op's. Work or stay home a little while longer.

pokerface_me · 08-03-2011 12:40pm

average_runner wrote: »

Sooner this government steps in and reduces the social welfare to the same level as germany the better.

I was unlucky to be unemployed for 5 months but as soon as a job came i took it. Nothing worst than waking up in the morning knowing you have no job to go too!

Why reduce it?? There is genuine people that are unemployed that need the money. The cost of living here and utility bills are quite high and if your unlucky enough to be unemployed its hard to make ends meet. But when you have people that abuse the system it disgusts me.

People who say stay on the dole.

He has a 50k job offer. He will earn take home pay of 37-38k and also save the state roughly the same, he is also helping his country out by taking the job. No matter what way you make it look he is 1000% wrong for not accepting the job.

eco2live · 08-03-2011 2:26pm

In fairness I am only out of work for 2 months and have more then paid my dues over the past 17 to 18 years. I have a degree, couple of diplomas and a Masters. If hard work in Ireland does not bring about a better standard of life then I am done with it.

50k in Europe brings a good standard of living but in Ireland it puts you on the poverty line along with people on Social welfare. Thats my point. The fact is that I have put in the effort, expense and work to expect a better standard of life then somebody on the scratcher or what is the point?

I am seeking a job and as I have said I have a time frame in mind (6 months) before I either emigrate, start my own business or drop my expectations. Long term dole is not even a consideration.

I sleep very well in turning down the position. Time will tell if I can do any better but it is worth a try.

eco2live · 08-03-2011 2:43pm

pokerface_me wrote: »

Give over will ya. He has been offered a 50k job, looks like he is going to refuse it. So in my book he has gone from somebody who was down on his luck and unemployed to someone who thinks the state should look after him and his family because he is not getting paid enough and under selling himself in recession. I'm sorry eco2live I'm been brutally honest and it doesn't wash with me. Personally if i was a social welfare officer and knew your position i would stop all your payments and make you take the job, you and your family are not the state's responsibility, its your responsibility.

Sorry for been honest.

I do appreciate where you are coming from and agree with the responsibility principal etc. but from the same logic should a Doctor should take any job if that is what he can get first? Should I not take a little time to try and get what I am worth? For the 50k I would be working 50 to 60 hours a week and have no time to look for a better position. I will then be in a position to make an even bigger contribution to the state.

My real point to be honest is that Ireland is so messed up. People who have to accept a job on an average wage have no better standard of living then those on the dole. Worse in some cases. Maybe the dole should be cut as I said but that can only happen when the cost of living in Ireland is addressed. Then again maybe the only way to reduce the cost of living is to stretch people further. I don't know but I do know its not fair on the new working poor (not talking about me). I know 50k is a good wage and that is my point. I should be able to accept that while looking for somthing better but there is no point.

average_runner · 08-03-2011 2:48pm

pokerface_me wrote: »

Why reduce it?? There is genuine people that are unemployed that need the money. The cost of living here and utility bills are quite high and if your unlucky enough to be unemployed its hard to make ends meet. But when you have people that abuse the system it disgusts me.

People who say stay on the dole.

He has a 50k job offer. He will earn take home pay of 37-38k and also save the state roughly the same, he is also helping his country out by taking the job. No matter what way you make it look he is 1000% wrong for not accepting the job.

Reduce it as the cost of living here is twice as high as it is Germany. There was an article in one of the Sunday papers where it pointed out that our social welfare was at least 50% too high.

Also look at our debt problem, it needs to be reduce, hence people will go to work and maybe they only get 20,000 a year, but its tax coming into our system and less expedniture going out. We got to hurt people now and then we will recover

Honey-ec · 08-03-2011 2:57pm

eco2live wrote: »

50k in Europe brings a good standard of living but in Ireland it puts you on the poverty line along with people on Social welfare.

So how do you think those of us on >30k net feel when you're turning your nose up at 50 grand?

Scibelle · 08-03-2011 3:06pm

It might also be worth examining from a future employers perspective. The longer you're not working may not reflect well. You may get asked in future interviews about this. Additionally, the longer you are out of work the greater the possibility becomes that you may become "rusty" or out of touch with the industry you worked in. Furthermore, having a job will significantly increase your chances of building up contacts and introducing you to opportunities you may otherwise not be aware of. Just some things to keep in mind.

borderlinemeath · 08-03-2011 3:08pm

The system is flawed beyond belief, I lost my job in December and am currently on JB of €188. I have looked for jobs in my field and they are few and far between and about 25% less than the salary I was on.

I have also set myself a time frame of maximum a year to find the right job or start my own business. I don't feel guilty for taking the JB as I paid enough tax in the past 19 years but when it comes to being assessed I know I won't be eligible for much based on my circumstances.

I have applied for about 15 jobs, had 2 interviews with no success. To be honest, like the OP I have begun to enjoy the time off, spending more time with my family. I am looking at doing a night course, have lost weight, walk frequently, no longer suffer from work related stress or the frequent insomnia that used to plague me. I don't feel guilty about getting money from the state but feel strangely guilty about enjoying my life outside the rat race.

There is a fine line for families between living to work and working to live, on the flip side the many many benefits enjoyed by the unemployed have been exploited by a certain sector of society. The OP doesn't fall into this category but some of the posts have tried to categorise him as such.

eco2live · 08-03-2011 3:12pm

Honey-ec wrote: »

So how do you think those of us on >30k net feel when you're turning your nose up at 50 grand?

I see where you are coming from but the point I am making is that you should be better off for your 30k then you are. Its not the employers fault. Its the environment we live in that was put there by politicians and bankers. Ireland is a crazy place.

I am not a communist and I don't think that every one should be as well off as each other regardless of their skills or education. If one person takes steps to better themselves then they should be better off. Thats how it is in other country's. Otherwise I would be be very happy in my perfect job and earning 15k a year. I do believe that there is a certain poverty threshold that people should not be allowed to drop below. It should not come in above the average wage though in fairness.

Its not that I turned my nose up at 50k. Its that I did not take it as I would have not been any better off. After the shed load of tax I have paid over the years is it wrong to accept job seekers while seeking a job?

eco2live · 08-03-2011 3:14pm

Scibelle wrote: »

It might also be worth examining from a future employers perspective. The longer you're not working may not reflect well. You may get asked in future interviews about this. Additionally, the longer you are out of work the greater the possibility becomes that you may become "rusty" or out of touch with the industry you worked in. Furthermore, having a job will significantly increase your chances of building up contacts and introducing you to opportunities you may otherwise not be aware of. Just some things to keep in mind.

Your dead right. This is on my mind. The clock is ticking and my expectations are dropping with time.

My recent experience in Jeremy Kyle wont get me too far

Can you afford to take a job?

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