Can you afford to take a job?

eco2live · 07-03-2011 2:45pm #1

Hey all,

I have a masters and 17 years experience and the most I can get offered at the moment for a management position is 50k. I know loads of people here are probably thinking that I should jump at it and would love to be in the same position but bear with me. The problem is that I was on nearly twice that previously and if I take such a serious step back-wards it could take years to get back to where I was. I feel I should wait until I get a decent offer even if it takes a few more months (or maybe I will have to emigrate).

I posted this as a reply on another thread. I am wondering if anyone else is in the same boat?

I have never been out of work before but I was made redundant last Christmas. I was surprised after the initial panic was over to see that I am not that worse off now even though I was on a very good salary. I am not saying that I am better off now. Far from it but I am saying that I am as well off as if I was to take a 50k job. Let me explain (the injustice of it for working people):

I have two children and I get the following

375 per week Job seekers (for whole family)
215 per week rent allowance
70 per week children's allowance

660 per week in total.

660 x 52 = 34320 per year (take home)

+ medical card. (annual benefit of about 2000 per year to my family)

+ Back to school allowance (200)

Total = 36520 (total income from state)

I have been offered 50K so far.

To explain a bit further one of my daughters require regular medical care that used to cost about 100 per month. Other medical costs averaged out about €50 per month.

Net income on 50k is €39,483
+ Childrens Allowance €2,880 (corrected as per comment)

Total €42,363

Out of that I would need to pay:

€2000 medical costs (per year)
€200 back to school (per year)
€200 per month costs for getting to work (€2,400)

Total €4,600 per year.

Take €4,600 from €42,363 = €37,763

Results:
€36,520 from state

€37,763 from €50k income PAYE

Difference with job = €1243 per year or €23 per week better off with the job as offered.

The figures above are rough but fairly accurate. I worked for 17 years and spent 8 years in total studying at night while paying for my own education and never took a cent from the state until I was made redundant. I have paid a shed load of tax over the years and over the past few years in particular.

I was panicing when I was let go and wondered how we would all cope. Truth was I was able to use redundancy to clear all loans and credit cards and dramatically reduce my outgoings. I also negotiated a rent reduction with landlord. I did not buy a house as they where over priced and I was happy to rent.

I can't wait to get back to work but if I can't get at least 75k I will have to emigrate as I am not going to be one of the working poor in Ireland when so much needs to be corrected and sorted out by government. I wonder how I would get on looking to buy a house on 50k a year even now in Ireland with a wife and two kids.

It is a pure load of bollox for the average working person in Ireland. I don't think a lot of people realize that the reason they can barely afford to survive, even on a good wage is because the lowest income in society is as I have detailed above (if your not working).

If I could achieve a better standard of living for the 50k then I would take it in a heartbeat. Its not the employers fault. Ireland is just still too expensive to live in that we all need this amount of money to keep our heads above water. If you look at buying power per income vs other country's that receive far less we are still poor. It is just not fair on the working family in Ireland. I have not been looking that long so far but is this the experience of other job seekers?

sunflower27 · 07-03-2011 3:11pm

For me, it's about pride. I'd much rather work than not work. And who is going to know what salary you are on if you took the 50k job and then applied for something that pays 75k.

And emigrating seems a tad dramatic. Do you mean uprooting your whole family or just you?

Radiotower · 07-03-2011 3:29pm

They say its easier to get a job when you have a job is what I'd be thinking. Is there much work in your field if you decide to stick it out? You must have a bit of savings too if you were on 100k and are renting a house that qualifies for rent allowance so maybe you can hang around for a while in hope.

I get the feeling that companies are using the recession to off-load the high earners and then recruiting people at a fraction of the cost or taking people on contract so they dont have to worry about holiday pay/benefits.

I take it your wife doesnt work and thats how you are entitled to all the extra benefits - I'm out of work, have a wife and 1 child and i only get the JB of 188Euro and am renting too but not entitled to any allowances as my wife is working.

Trish2007 · 07-03-2011 3:41pm

If I was you I would take the job. There is nothing to guarantee that you will continue to recieve the benefits you are getting at the moment.
Like you when I was first made redundant we werent much worse off but after the first year when our income was means tested things changed.

EL_Loco · 07-03-2011 3:53pm

I'd take it. stay sharp and keep your eye out. amazing what you forget when you're out of a working environment for a while.

you seem to have a decent grasp on figures, what would you say would be a "survivable" amount of state benefit for your situation? Never considered myself right wing but if people are turning their nose up at 50k jobs because the state benefit is a better option, then it's time to take a chunk out of what gets paid out IMO.

pokerface_me · 07-03-2011 4:01pm

If i was getting 500euro a week for my family on the labour and was offered a job taking home 400euro a week, there would be one outcome. And its take the job every time, pride man pride. Installing the work ethic in your children, they see daddy going to work and thats exactly what they will want to do. See daddy been a couch potato signing on every week, yep they will want to do that do.

Take the job have some self respect.

Rob113 · 07-03-2011 4:28pm

Not getting at you OP but if there are people who can turn down €50k per annum jobs because they are better off on the dole then the whole system is fukked completely. What incentives are there for anyone to get up off their arses and go looking for work when you can get as much on the dole?

I've never claimed the dole myself touch wood but I'm struggling very badly trying to provide for my family and pay a mortgage on €27k per annum. I'm up to my balls in debt. By the looks of things I'd be better off losing my job and going on the dole.

I think you should take the job for your own sanity and self respect, who knows you could end up back where you deserve to be after a year or two. Hope it all works out for you.

mikemac · 07-03-2011 4:34pm

"Never waste a good recession" and a lot of top earners like yourself OP have been let go. There's probably a graduate doing your job now on far less money, yes I know that's not quite redundancy but similar things are done

Anyway, it's easier to get a job when you have a job and it'll keep you active and up to date.
Take the job and within a year or so search hard for something better

eco2live · 07-03-2011 4:36pm

I do take your points people and agree with the principal. I know what you are saying about pride etc. but my daughters treatment costs money. Also my landlord said that once I am working again they would bring back up the rent (fair enough as they have been very good and are taking below the going rate at the moment).

My point is that we should not be worse off for accepting a reasonably well paid job rather then staying on the dole. Should social welfare be cut as an incentive to get people back to work? Will that bring down prices. Should the rent allowance be cut to stop propping up the banks? Are we going to see some of our previous FF TDs working in the local shop. Would they accept it?

I don't know what the answer is as doing that without sorting out the high cost of living is not fair on people without option of work.

I am climbing the walls at the moment and I am only out a couple of months. Its a kick in the nuts taking a such a serious step back-wards financially. Will more then likely give it a little more time as I don't want to make the wrong move and have a situation where a job does not work out on the back of a redundancy. I just hope things don't get worse in the job market. An agency I am dealing with also thinks that I would be underselling myself and should wait for the right position. I think I will just put a time line on it and if I don't get something sorted before a certain date I will step back my expectations (again)

mikemac · 07-03-2011 4:40pm

Sure take a six month contract with the agency and see how it goes.
Or....you can use this time to do some professional exams

Either way, don't feel guilty at all over what you're claiming
You pay top rate of tax for years and now it's there for you

eco2live · 07-03-2011 4:42pm

Rob113 wrote: »

Not getting at you OP but if there are people who can turn down €50k per annum jobs because they are better off on the dole then the whole system is fukked completely. What incentives are there for anyone to get up off their arses and go looking for work when you can get as much on the dole?

I've never claimed the dole myself touch wood but I'm struggling very badly trying to provide for my family and pay a mortgage on €27k per annum. I'm up to my balls in debt. By the looks of things I'd be better off losing my job and going on the dole.

I think you should take the job for your own sanity and self respect, who knows you could end up back where you deserve to be after a year or two. Hope it all works out for you.

Can't argue with that mate. I agree the whole system is ****ed up. Fair play for sticking with it. I respect that and hope to be working soon myself.

angelfire9 · 07-03-2011 4:55pm

Radiotower wrote: »

They say its easier to get a job when you have a job is what I'd be thinking.

I agree with this ^^^^^^^^

Radiotower wrote: »

I get the feeling that companies are using the recession to off-load the high earners and then recruiting people at a fraction of the cost or taking people on contract so they dont have to worry about holiday pay/benefits.

And this ^^^^^^^^^
this is what happened to me!
Company closed
2 weeks later it basically re-opened 2 units away from it's previous address
Same manager but only the minimum wage staff got jobs back

Radiotower wrote: »

I take it your wife doesnt work and thats how you are entitled to all the extra benefits - I'm out of work, have a wife and 1 child and i only get the JB of 188Euro and am renting too but not entitled to any allowances as my wife is working.

Same here!

I have a mortgage though currently being paid interest only via payment protection policy
For me to go back to work I need a job earning a minimum of 40k per annum to COVER COSTS
If i got one on €30k-€35k I'd probably take it though
We'd have to figure out a way of saving the €100 a week somewhere

ANYTHING is better than the dole!

mikemac · 07-03-2011 4:57pm

angelfire9 wrote: »

And this ^^^^^^^^^
this is what happened to me!
Company closed
2 weeks later it basically re-opened 2 units away from it's previous address
Same manager but only the minimum wage staff got jobs back

I'd be reporting that kind of messing.
Maybe nothing will be done but possibly Revenue will flag the company directors and audit them

angelfire9 · 07-03-2011 5:02pm

feelingstressed wrote: »

I'd be reporting that kind of messing.
Maybe nothing will be done but possibly Revenue will flag the company directors and audit them

Different company name
SLIGHTLY Different directors (Same family though)

Not illegal though I'm sure Revenue aren't impressed as the original company closed owing them a few quid

card123 · 07-03-2011 5:04pm

you forgot to add back in childrens allowance to take home pay from job comes to 38,523 then so in excess of income on the dole.

faw1tytowers · 07-03-2011 5:23pm

I wonder if these ppl who talk of pride have been in such a situation. Personally I would wait or negotiate the 50k job.. You are giving your family what it needs for now, why work your ass off never see your family for what seems a few extra bob but in fact with a job brings expenses. I am in a very similar situation and can understand where you come from.

Never mind this Pride and be proud that you are providing for your family as best you can... you are not a scrounger sitting on your ass you are looking for work, work that will be sufficient for your family needs and not over stretch you and your own health.

I hope things work out soon for you.

eco2live · 07-03-2011 5:49pm

card123 wrote: »

you forgot to add back in childrens allowance to take home pay from job comes to 38,523 then so in excess of income on the dole.

Your dead right. I would get that either way. (changed the post) thanks.

eco2live · 07-03-2011 6:02pm

faw1tytowers wrote: »

I wonder if these ppl who talk of pride have been in such a situation. Personally I would wait or negotiate the 50k job.. You are giving your family what it needs for now, why work your ass off never see your family for what seems a few extra bob but in fact with a job brings expenses. I am in a very similar situation and can understand where you come from.

Never mind this Pride and be proud that you are providing for your family as best you can... you are not a scrounger sitting on your ass you are looking for work, work that will be sufficient for your family needs and not over stretch you and your own health.

I hope things work out soon for you.

Thanks for that. My family are proud of me. They know I paid 20k+ and worked hard to get my masters. I worked a full time job and studied at night to get my degree in the first place. I have also worked a 50+ hour week for the past 17 years to get where I was. I have not got a sense of entitlement but more of a sense of worth. The only reason I was made redundant was they closed the department of company I was running (market reasons) and there was nothing else suitable in the company. Last year alone I paid more tax then I will receive from the state this year (never mind the previous years).

On a positive note I have lost 2 stone since leaving work and my health is a lot better as I am in the gym every day between job hunting. People are more then their jobs. I don't think I will bother etching my degrees or job title on my tombstone but maybe husband and father might get a mention

culsoh · 08-03-2011 9:29am

Am I right in saying that your on Jobseekers Benefit/Allowance??
Jobseekers is for JOB SEEKERS... You've been offered a job and you should take it. The days of €100K salaries are long gone and are very few and far between.
I understand that your daughters healthcare costs money but perhaps you will be eligable for a GP Visit card and remember the drugs payment scheme??
Remember that the likelyhood of the new government slashing social welfare payments are high - so your payment will inevitably go down at the end of the year - take this into account in your breakdown...

pokerface_me · 08-03-2011 9:41am

faw1tytowers wrote: »

I wonder if these ppl who talk of pride have been in such a situation. Personally I would wait or negotiate the 50k job.. You are giving your family what it needs for now, why work your ass off never see your family for what seems a few extra bob but in fact with a job brings expenses. I am in a very similar situation and can understand where you come from.

Never mind this Pride and be proud that you are providing for your family as best you can... you are not a scrounger sitting on your ass you are looking for work, work that will be sufficient for your family needs and not over stretch you and your own health.

I hope things work out soon for you.

Give over will ya. He has been offered a 50k job, looks like he is going to refuse it. So in my book he has gone from somebody who was down on his luck and unemployed to someone who thinks the state should look after him and his family because he is not getting paid enough and under selling himself in recession. I'm sorry eco2live i'm been brutally honest and it doesn't wash with me. Personally if i was a social welfare officer and knew your position i would stop all your payments and make you take the job, you and your family are not the state's responsibility, its your responsibility.

Sorry for been honest.

average_runner · 08-03-2011 10:04am

Sooner this government steps in and reduces the social welfare to the same level as germany the better.

I was unlucky to be unemployed for 5 months but as soon as a job came i took it. Nothing worst than waking up in the morning knowing you have no job to go too!

inforfun · 08-03-2011 10:21am

I agree with all the people saying it is better to work for your money.
But at the same time.... working 40 hours a week for €23 more than the OP gets now?

I dont think the dole itself, or better the amount, is such a problem. It is all the extra's that makes working for the OP (and i suppose there are a few people in the same boat) hardly beneficial.
You can talk pride and setting examples all you want. First thing most people look at is: what will I be better of when working 40 hours a week?

I honestly dont know what i would do in Op's. Work or stay home a little while longer.

pokerface_me · 08-03-2011 11:40am

average_runner wrote: »

Sooner this government steps in and reduces the social welfare to the same level as germany the better.

I was unlucky to be unemployed for 5 months but as soon as a job came i took it. Nothing worst than waking up in the morning knowing you have no job to go too!

Why reduce it?? There is genuine people that are unemployed that need the money. The cost of living here and utility bills are quite high and if your unlucky enough to be unemployed its hard to make ends meet. But when you have people that abuse the system it disgusts me.

People who say stay on the dole.

He has a 50k job offer. He will earn take home pay of 37-38k and also save the state roughly the same, he is also helping his country out by taking the job. No matter what way you make it look he is 1000% wrong for not accepting the job.

eco2live · 08-03-2011 1:26pm

In fairness I am only out of work for 2 months and have more then paid my dues over the past 17 to 18 years. I have a degree, couple of diplomas and a Masters. If hard work in Ireland does not bring about a better standard of life then I am done with it.

50k in Europe brings a good standard of living but in Ireland it puts you on the poverty line along with people on Social welfare. Thats my point. The fact is that I have put in the effort, expense and work to expect a better standard of life then somebody on the scratcher or what is the point?

I am seeking a job and as I have said I have a time frame in mind (6 months) before I either emigrate, start my own business or drop my expectations. Long term dole is not even a consideration.

I sleep very well in turning down the position. Time will tell if I can do any better but it is worth a try.

eco2live · 08-03-2011 1:43pm

pokerface_me wrote: »

Give over will ya. He has been offered a 50k job, looks like he is going to refuse it. So in my book he has gone from somebody who was down on his luck and unemployed to someone who thinks the state should look after him and his family because he is not getting paid enough and under selling himself in recession. I'm sorry eco2live I'm been brutally honest and it doesn't wash with me. Personally if i was a social welfare officer and knew your position i would stop all your payments and make you take the job, you and your family are not the state's responsibility, its your responsibility.

Sorry for been honest.

I do appreciate where you are coming from and agree with the responsibility principal etc. but from the same logic should a Doctor should take any job if that is what he can get first? Should I not take a little time to try and get what I am worth? For the 50k I would be working 50 to 60 hours a week and have no time to look for a better position. I will then be in a position to make an even bigger contribution to the state.

My real point to be honest is that Ireland is so messed up. People who have to accept a job on an average wage have no better standard of living then those on the dole. Worse in some cases. Maybe the dole should be cut as I said but that can only happen when the cost of living in Ireland is addressed. Then again maybe the only way to reduce the cost of living is to stretch people further. I don't know but I do know its not fair on the new working poor (not talking about me). I know 50k is a good wage and that is my point. I should be able to accept that while looking for somthing better but there is no point.

average_runner · 08-03-2011 1:48pm

pokerface_me wrote: »

Why reduce it?? There is genuine people that are unemployed that need the money. The cost of living here and utility bills are quite high and if your unlucky enough to be unemployed its hard to make ends meet. But when you have people that abuse the system it disgusts me.

People who say stay on the dole.

He has a 50k job offer. He will earn take home pay of 37-38k and also save the state roughly the same, he is also helping his country out by taking the job. No matter what way you make it look he is 1000% wrong for not accepting the job.

Reduce it as the cost of living here is twice as high as it is Germany. There was an article in one of the Sunday papers where it pointed out that our social welfare was at least 50% too high.

Also look at our debt problem, it needs to be reduce, hence people will go to work and maybe they only get 20,000 a year, but its tax coming into our system and less expedniture going out. We got to hurt people now and then we will recover

Honey-ec · 08-03-2011 1:57pm

eco2live wrote: »

50k in Europe brings a good standard of living but in Ireland it puts you on the poverty line along with people on Social welfare.

So how do you think those of us on >30k net feel when you're turning your nose up at 50 grand?

Scibelle · 08-03-2011 2:06pm

It might also be worth examining from a future employers perspective. The longer you're not working may not reflect well. You may get asked in future interviews about this. Additionally, the longer you are out of work the greater the possibility becomes that you may become "rusty" or out of touch with the industry you worked in. Furthermore, having a job will significantly increase your chances of building up contacts and introducing you to opportunities you may otherwise not be aware of. Just some things to keep in mind.

borderlinemeath · 08-03-2011 2:08pm

The system is flawed beyond belief, I lost my job in December and am currently on JB of €188. I have looked for jobs in my field and they are few and far between and about 25% less than the salary I was on.

I have also set myself a time frame of maximum a year to find the right job or start my own business. I don't feel guilty for taking the JB as I paid enough tax in the past 19 years but when it comes to being assessed I know I won't be eligible for much based on my circumstances.

I have applied for about 15 jobs, had 2 interviews with no success. To be honest, like the OP I have begun to enjoy the time off, spending more time with my family. I am looking at doing a night course, have lost weight, walk frequently, no longer suffer from work related stress or the frequent insomnia that used to plague me. I don't feel guilty about getting money from the state but feel strangely guilty about enjoying my life outside the rat race.

There is a fine line for families between living to work and working to live, on the flip side the many many benefits enjoyed by the unemployed have been exploited by a certain sector of society. The OP doesn't fall into this category but some of the posts have tried to categorise him as such.

eco2live · 08-03-2011 2:12pm

Honey-ec wrote: »

So how do you think those of us on >30k net feel when you're turning your nose up at 50 grand?

I see where you are coming from but the point I am making is that you should be better off for your 30k then you are. Its not the employers fault. Its the environment we live in that was put there by politicians and bankers. Ireland is a crazy place.

I am not a communist and I don't think that every one should be as well off as each other regardless of their skills or education. If one person takes steps to better themselves then they should be better off. Thats how it is in other country's. Otherwise I would be be very happy in my perfect job and earning 15k a year. I do believe that there is a certain poverty threshold that people should not be allowed to drop below. It should not come in above the average wage though in fairness.

Its not that I turned my nose up at 50k. Its that I did not take it as I would have not been any better off. After the shed load of tax I have paid over the years is it wrong to accept job seekers while seeking a job?

eco2live · 08-03-2011 2:14pm

Scibelle wrote: »

It might also be worth examining from a future employers perspective. The longer you're not working may not reflect well. You may get asked in future interviews about this. Additionally, the longer you are out of work the greater the possibility becomes that you may become "rusty" or out of touch with the industry you worked in. Furthermore, having a job will significantly increase your chances of building up contacts and introducing you to opportunities you may otherwise not be aware of. Just some things to keep in mind.

Your dead right. This is on my mind. The clock is ticking and my expectations are dropping with time.

My recent experience in Jeremy Kyle wont get me too far

eco2live · 08-03-2011 2:16pm

Just got an e-mail about an interview for Friday so fingers crossed

eco2live · 08-03-2011 2:22pm

borderlinemeath wrote: »

The system is flawed beyond belief, I lost my job in December and am currently on JB of €188. I have looked for jobs in my field and they are few and far between and about 25% less than the salary I was on.

I have also set myself a time frame of maximum a year to find the right job or start my own business. I don't feel guilty for taking the JB as I paid enough tax in the past 19 years but when it comes to being assessed I know I won't be eligible for much based on my circumstances.

I have applied for about 15 jobs, had 2 interviews with no success. To be honest, like the OP I have begun to enjoy the time off, spending more time with my family. I am looking at doing a night course, have lost weight, walk frequently, no longer suffer from work related stress or the frequent insomnia that used to plague me. I don't feel guilty about getting money from the state but feel strangely guilty about enjoying my life outside the rat race.

There is a fine line for families between living to work and working to live, on the flip side the many many benefits enjoyed by the unemployed have been exploited by a certain sector of society. The OP doesn't fall into this category but some of the posts have tried to categories him as such.

You can see where I am coming from. Thanks for the comment. I do feel guilty as well about being happier and healthier since I lost my lob in a strange kind of way. That does contribute to me not jumping at the job unless there is going to be an increase in my familys standard of living. Just being honest.

dubal · 08-03-2011 2:40pm

The other reality about high salaries, is that people in jobs accumulate increases over time to earn way above the going rate for the market.

So the market rate for your job could me much lower than €100k

Dubal

eco2live · 08-03-2011 3:01pm

dubal wrote: »

The other reality about high salaries, is that people in jobs accumulate increases over time to earn way above the going rate for the market.

So the market rate for your job could me much lower than €100k

Dubal

That is true. I have factored in a 25% drop so far (up to 35% drop even tbh). 50% is a bit much but I could even live with that if I was going to be better off.

Balagan · 08-03-2011 3:03pm

eco2live wrote: »

I see where you are coming from but the point I am making is that you should be better off for your 30k then you are. Its not the employers fault. Its the environment we live in that was put there by politicians and bankers. Ireland is a crazy place.

I am not a communist and I don't think that every one should be as well off as each other regardless of their skills or education. If one person takes steps to better themselves then they should be better off. Thats how it is in other country's. Otherwise I would be be very happy in my perfect job and earning 15k a year. I do believe that there is a certain poverty threshold that people should not be allowed to drop below. It should not come in above the average wage though in fairness.

Its not that I turned my nose up at 50k. Its that I did not take it as I would have not been any better off. After the shed load of tax I have paid over the years is it wrong to accept job seekers while seeking a job?

In answer to your question, there is nothing wrong with accepting jobseekers while seeking a job. There is a problem with accepting it when you have found a job and not taken it.

Unavailable for work

You can be regarded as not being available for work and not entitled to Jobseeker's Benefit, if you put unreasonable restrictions on the following:

* The nature of the employment
* The hours of work
* Rate of pay
* The duration of the employment
* The location of the employment.

In any case where a Deciding Officer is of the opinion that you have placed unreasonable restrictions, you will be interviewed and given the opportunity to respond.

http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcontent/en/social-welfare-payments/unemployed-people/unemployment_benefit/

eco2live · 08-03-2011 6:06pm

Balagan wrote: »

[/B]

In answer to your question, there is nothing wrong with accepting jobseekers while seeking a job. There is a problem with accepting it when you have found a job and not taken it.

Unavailable for work

You can be regarded as not being available for work and not entitled to Jobseeker's Benefit, if you put unreasonable restrictions on the following:

* The nature of the employment
* The hours of work
* Rate of pay
* The duration of the employment
* The location of the employment.

In any case where a Deciding Officer is of the opinion that you have placed unreasonable restrictions, you will be interviewed and given the opportunity to respond.

http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcontent/en/social-welfare-payments/unemployed-people/unemployment_benefit/

I did not do any of the above. I have realistic expectations that are shared by employment agency's and HR professionals.

I see what you mean above but for a lot of management jobs they state a criteria including education and experience etc. They will state a competitive salary based on experience. They offered me the highest that they had in their budget for a manager. That information was not available until offer stage in this case. What was I supposed to do? Take whatever is offered? Its considered poor tactics to ask about the salary straight away. As I have said I am not talking about the amount I was offered. Thats what that employer was able to pay.

My point is that in Ireland you are as well off on the dole as in a 50k job if you are married with 2 children if both spouses are not working. Now I am in a position that I should in the end get more then this but I despair for this country when that is the entry point that it is worth peoples while to work. Most non professionals and a lot of professionals would be happy to get this amount. Both partners now have to work and if you have children and especially a child with special needs then I can understand it must be very difficult for people. The idea of my post was to raise this issue with people. The more people know the better chance of demanding change.

I will not be on the dole long term no matter what the circumstances and I am not avoiding work. Just highlighting the plight of the working poor. I never knew it was this hard on working people until I lost my job and I began to see the amount of entitlements people get on JS vs people on the minimum wage or lower paid workers. Hence the title of the post. Can you afford to take a job?

Another aspect of this is housing. To get rent allowance I was put on the housing list. They told me that it could take 3 to 5 years to get a house in my area. I won't avail of this but if I was to choose the permanent dole route I would probably be in a better position to get a house(sooner). I can see it now. I become one of the working poor while ghost estates with houses that I would not be able to afford are given out for free.

Its just not fair on average worker in Ireland. This discussion was never intended to be a discussion about staying on the dole and avoiding work. I broke it down because 50k is not a bad wage and I was surprised when I totaled up my current income from the state vs that salary how it all played out. No wonder we are in the situation we are in.

Focal · 09-03-2011 6:02pm

How could you turn down an income of 50K. We are family of 4 and only earn around 26K a year. Our outgoings are huge. My partner works long hours for bad money.

I really hope welfares rates will be reduced cause making people LAZY and expecting tax payers to pay for them.

I think its awful people who work are less well off than LAYABOUTS on welfare.

eco2live · 09-03-2011 7:09pm

Focal wrote: »

How could you turn down an income of 50K. We are family of 4 and only earn around 26K a year. Our outgoings are huge. My partner works long hours for bad money.

I really hope welfares rates will be reduced cause making people LAZY and expecting tax payers to pay for them.

I think its awful people who work are less well off than LAYABOUTS on welfare.

I am far from lazy. I appreciate that it is a little insensitive in the current climate to people who are working hard for less to state that I turned down a 50k job. I never realised how close to poverty working people in Ireland are until I was let go. Who knows what the future will bring for us all.

I have never been out of work in my life until now. If you read my post you would see that. I will be working soon hopefully and will be paying plenty of tax (as I always have). I paid about 40k in tax in 2010 alone. I am from a working class background and did all of my 10 years of studying at night whilst working full time and I paid for all of it myself. Hardly the actions of a lazy person.

My point was never about how much people get paid in work but the standard of living for working people like your family in Ireland. I agree that you and your family should be better off then people who are not working. That was my point in the first place. I also agree that some people take advantage of the system as you say. No wonder they do when things are as I have laid out.

I don't agree that people should take any job just because they where offered it on the basis that others are worse off. Do people and their skills and experience not have any value any more? Should everyone be paid the same in all jobs? They tried that in Russia and look how that went.

People who work should be better off then people who don't work.

cee_jay · 09-03-2011 7:13pm

Focal banned for a week for calling welfare recipients Layabouts. This is against forum charter.

eco2live · 10-03-2011 1:58pm

I have been reflecting on this and it seems to me that the problem is also the solution in a way. Everyone needs to earn less to bring down the cost of living but none of us want to be the ones to earn less.

The next job I am offered I will take to do my part even if I have to take a hit. Middle and higher earners along with social welfare recipients, vested interests in the public and private sector all need to take a hit to reduce the cost of living. The government needs to get their house in order from a value for money and waste perspective and quickly.

The standard of living is not fair but we are probably in a period of correction all round in the economy. Wages will have to come in line with Europe if we are to receive funding from the EU/IMF. They are not going to fund us when our professionals and SW recipients are paid twice as much as theirs. I just hope that this government takes on the vested interests in Ireland and bring about fairness from a standard of living perspective for the working family.

Interview tomorrow. Fingers crossed. This discussion has been a humbling one in some ways for me. I was a little bitter having lost my job after all my effort but its time to get back on the horse and do my bit for Ireland like I always have. I will try and get better employment whilst already working.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion for their feedback, support and criticism.

mp22 · 10-03-2011 2:17pm

Good luck tomorrow.

arctictree · 10-03-2011 7:44pm

Can you still receive state benefits if you have turned down a job?

eco2live · 10-03-2011 7:54pm

How many animals did Moses take on the arc?

It depends on the job and if people would bother to tell them that they have turned down said job.

I have said all I am going to say on this in fairness. I have explained it to death.

greendom · 10-03-2011 8:16pm

Could your wife find work? If you took the 50k job and your wife was to work part-time then your family income would rise accordingly.

Alternatively have you looked at what benefits you might be entitled to when you start work. You will be allowed to keep your medical cards for at least a year I think and you may be entitled to other benefits too.

eco2live · 10-03-2011 8:28pm

greendom wrote: »

Could your wife find work? If you took the 50k job and your wife was to work part-time then your family income would rise accordingly.

Alternatively have you looked at what benefits you might be entitled to when you start work. You will be allowed to keep your medical cards for at least a year I think and you may be entitled to other benefits too.

You are dead right there. If my wife was working it would make a huge difference. Our problem is that my daughter has special needs so it is not practical for my wife to work. On the medical card thing i was told that as I only just got it if I took work at the value I stated I would lose it.

I suppose that both partners now have to work and employers are having to compete with the state as by taking a job you are giving up both yours and your spouse welfare payments. I think you have hit the nail on the head there.

I have come round to be honest in taking a bit of the hit if need be to get back to work if I am lucky enough to be offered another job. I hope others are willing to do the same. What about all the people who can only expect 20 to 30k and only one partner is working. They have no chance.

egan2020 · 11-03-2011 10:10am

On the issue of the medical card, if your daughter has special needs and you have to regularly buy medication for her, she may be entitled to a medical card of her own. A friend of mine has a child with special needs and epilepsy. Both her and her husband work and probably earn about 75K between them and the child has his own medical card. You should speak to your dauhter's GP who should write a letter backing up any claim for a medical card for your daughter.

rasper · 11-03-2011 10:36am

I despair when I read about these situations , no wonder the country is f**ked, nearly half a million unemployed and 2 million working , unless there is dramatic action pretty soon the state wont be able to pay any welfare at all.
Is it not time to consider the likes of food vouchers negociated with the major supermarket, and to start job centres like they have in the UK,(unemployed have to show up and look for jobs , websites , newspaper provided by the state).
I dont label people and know that most people want to work and its unfair to the unemployed to be kept in a poverty trap because they better off on welfare, drastic action needs to be taken or we'll all be emirgrating.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/workers-turn-down-euro28000-job-because-they-get-more-on-dole-2573644.html

borderlinemeath · 11-03-2011 11:02am

rasper wrote: »

I despair when I read about these situations , no wonder the country is f**ked, nearly half a million unemployed and 2 million working , unless there is dramatic action pretty soon the state wont be able to pay any welfare at all.
Is it not time to consider the likes of food vouchers negociated with the major supermarket, and to start job centres like they have in the UK,(unemployed have to show up and look for jobs , websites , newspaper provided by the state).
I dont label people and know that most people want to work and its unfair to the unemployed to be kept in a poverty trap because they better off on welfare, drastic action needs to be taken or we'll all be emirgrating.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/workers-turn-down-euro28000-job-because-they-get-more-on-dole-2573644.html

I agree with you.
I'm unemployed 3 months and while I don't miss the stress of my job, I miss so many other aspects of it. The satisfaction and sense of achievement when things go well, the cameraderie with co-workers and of course the freedom of having a decent salary.

I would like to see long term unemployed work in the community in exchange for their social welfare, plenty of opportunities to work alongside nursing assistants, admin assistants in HSE, care workers, council workers. I wouldn't expect them to work a full working week as their social welfare wouldn't cover the minimum wage but at least do somethingfor the JA they would have received over the years.

It would cut out fraud, give long term unemployed a chance to get into the routine of working and give them a sense of confidence as I can only imagine how despondent it must be being unemployed long term.
It would also relieve the pressure in some public departments if there were extra staffing to do some of the work that seems to clog up the system.

NeedaNewName · 13-03-2011 11:26pm

eco2live wrote: »

Just got an e-mail about an interview for Friday so fingers crossed

Hope that goes well for you. Having read the thread and seen the effort you put in in the past to get you masters etc. you are right to try and get a job you feel you are worth. Plus you have paid a lot of tax in your time too I'd imagine.

keithm1 · 14-03-2011 12:04am

I know a few in the same boat as yourself but with 2k a month mortgages ,same thing they're better off not working
Where's the incentive
This government has to do something and fast
You deserve a break from the fast lane every 16 years or so
Try enjoy it and don't feel bad about taking what you deserve and have paid for yourself over the years in taxes
Your the ambitious type that will get the country up and running again

Hope it goes well for you

Can you afford to take a job?

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