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How would you feel about a cashless society?

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  • 02-06-2012 12:00pm
    #1
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭


    Reading a few articles a few months ago here and here about moving towards a cashless society.

    The main pro I supposes would be a drastic reduction on crime and corruption, from muggings to bribery.

    The cons, as I see them would be that in the event of a real or perceived imminent banking or equity collapse people often withdraw savings and store them in cash-this option would be no longer available. I also see cash as a form of independence and privacy- I would rather that the bank and/or government did not have the power to see every transaction I make.

    There is also the problem that we still have laws where victimless crimes, specifically the drug trade, are prohibited. Cash allows the average punter to vote with his wallet if he or she so chooses.

    Smaller things would be ease for tipping, giving kids money for birthdays, selling goods to friends and so on. I'm sure there are others that I cannot think of. While minor points they should be taken on board nonetheless.

    In short, I think that cash is freedom, and we should never let our government or banks try to take it away from us. What do you think?


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    #2
    SupaNova
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    I would be skeptical of the claim that a cashless society would lead to dramatically lower crime and corruption.

    There was a thread on this recently:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056477782


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    #3
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Good point on the traceability of cash. That said most things I buy are cashless.

    However cash will never go away. For tipping, small purchases, and for where you want to be untraceable.


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    #4
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    SupaNova wrote: »
    I would be skeptical of the claim that a cashless society would lead to dramatically lower crime and corruption.

    There was a thread on this recently:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056477782

    Did a search but didn't find one, sorry.

    As for crime, realistically there is only so much guns you can buy with guns or diamonds.

    Another point just occurred to me- self control. People with cash tend to spend less. On a personal level for Irish people, carrying only a certain amount of cash on a night out will prevent you from blowing God knows how much when you're drunk. Another thing would be giving money to homeless people or on street charity collections. Again, minor points but worth taking on board.


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    #5
    RoverZT
    Registered Users Posts: 362 ✭✭RoverZT


    Banks here don't seem to want it anymore it seems.

    Only Ulster Bank offer free banking here now, Aib, Boi and the likes are charging per transaction if you don't have a certain amount in your account now.

    That effectively kills a cashless economy.

    No one likes being robbed.

    I loved using laser, but now they are charging me, they can **** off.


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    #6
    Kinski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    Ireland's heading for a cashless society, anyhow. In that we soon won't have any...:pac:


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    #7
    usernamegoes
    Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    An interesting electronic currency which solves some of the problems you mention is bitcoin. http://www.weusecoins.com/

    It does not require a third party to administer it so can't collapse. It's psedu-anonymous and is therefore used already for online drugs sales. It has a set number of coins which can't be increased by governments.


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    #8
    eth0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    usernamegoes wrote: »
    An interesting electronic currency which solves some of the problems you mention is bitcoin. http://www.weusecoins.com/

    It does not require a third party to administer it so can't collapse. It's psedu-anonymous and is therefore used already for online drugs sales. It has a set number of coins which can't be increased by governments.

    bitcoin is an interesting concept but there's a few problems with it. not really as secure and anonymous as i'd like it to be

    I suppose something like this solves most of the big brother elements associated with traditional cashless payments. it just needs to be as convenient as cash is now. i suppose you could send bitcoins over bluetooth


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    #9
    usernamegoes
    Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    eth0 wrote: »
    bitcoin is an interesting concept but there's a few problems with it. not really as secure and anonymous as i'd like it to be

    In terms on anonymity it can be anonymous as you can make it. If you need it to be ultra anonymous you can do it but for most purposes it fairly anonymous.

    As for security, there are some issue but mainly just be safe. Don't lose them (like cash, unlike cash though you can back them up), don't let them be stolen etc.
    I suppose something like this solves most of the big brother elements associated with traditional cashless payments. it just needs to be as convenient as cash is now. i suppose you could send bitcoins over bluetooth

    There are many working on making it as easy to use as cash including RFID from your phone etc. Also if you like cash then there's https://www.casascius.com/


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    #10
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Widespread skimming of debit and credit cards in this country over the last few years has severely dented people's confidence in a cashless society. Make this part more secure to give consumers confidence to move from cash.


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    #11
    SupaNova
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Another point just occurred to me- self control. People with cash tend to spend less. On a personal level for Irish people, carrying only a certain amount of cash on a night out will prevent you from blowing God knows how much when you're drunk. Another thing would be giving money to homeless people or on street charity collections. Again, minor points but worth taking on board.

    You can put limits on cards, and you could have a card you use just for nights out, top up that card with the maximum you want to spend on a night out, and just bring that card. Its not much of a con.


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    #12
    Sindri
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,059 ✭✭✭Sindri


    Electronic transactions of money like M-Pesa are where things are going.


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    #13
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭Good loser


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Reading a few articles a few months ago here and here about moving towards a cashless society.

    The main pro I supposes would be a drastic reduction on crime and corruption, from muggings to bribery.

    The cons, as I see them would be that in the event of a real or perceived imminent banking or equity collapse people often withdraw savings and store them in cash-this option would be no longer available. I also see cash as a form of independence and privacy- I would rather that the bank and/or government did not have the power to see every transaction I make.

    There is also the problem that we still have laws where victimless crimes, specifically the drug trade, are prohibited. Cash allows the average punter to vote with his wallet if he or she so chooses.

    Smaller things would be ease for tipping, giving kids money for birthdays, selling goods to friends and so on. I'm sure there are others that I cannot think of. While minor points they should be taken on board nonetheless.

    In short, I think that cash is freedom, and we should never let our government or banks try to take it away from us. What do you think?

    Money is the lubricant that allows transactions/exchanges to occur.

    In the shape of gold and silver etc it has been around since antiquity (the Greeks used an amalgam of the two as well as each on its own).

    Instead of the physical handover transfers are now being done more and more electronically. The larger the transaction the less likely it will be in cash as these are more efficient.

    Below a certain size or level of income there will usually be a large amount of cash activity. The State will always control the currency to prevent frauds. Interesting question.


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    #14
    RMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭RMD


    I'm quite pro-legalization when it comes to some drugs but to call the drugs trade a victimless crime is nothing short of pure ignorance. Tell the victims of muggings for drugs it's a victimless crime, tell the families destroyed by their junkie child / sibling it's a victimless crime.

    Many drugs can be used recreationally and without problem by responsible people, I do so myself. But there is also a handful of drugs that ruin the lives of the user, those around them and the general citizen can become a victim when a habit forms.

    [Rant Over]

    I'd hate the notion of a cashless society. I like the simplicity of cash, I like having it on me readily available to use. If the phone lines go down that means card transactions are out of the equation. Plus there's nothing more irritating than that arsehole who decides to pay for their 1 / 2 euro item with their lasercard and make us wait through the whole process. Cash on the otherhand, the transaction is done in 20 seconds.


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    #15
    Cool Story Bro
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭Cool Story Bro


    Bit of an effort lugging around cows to trade...


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    #16
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    RMD wrote: »
    I'd hate the notion of a cashless society. I like the simplicity of cash, I like having it on me readily available to use. If the phone lines go down that means card transactions are out of the equation. Plus there's nothing more irritating than that arsehole who decides to pay for their 1 / 2 euro item with their lasercard and make us wait through the whole process. Cash on the otherhand, the transaction is done in 20 seconds.

    They seem like engineering problems rather than intrinsic ones.
    You can always steal cash but some form of credit card would be as safe as technology would allow.

    I think it would also serve to have more control of dole payments. Stop the people on the dole from buying things they don't need like fags and drink.

    Stop people doing nixers if there was no cash in hand payment.
    Make money laundering more difficult.
    Drug trade would be hard if you've got nothing to trade it against - they'd resort to barter maybe?

    Given that it has the capacity to be safer, easier to use and easier to regulate I would think that it's only a matter of how long the technology takes to mature.


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    #17
    eth0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    Gbear wrote: »
    They seem like engineering problems rather than intrinsic ones.
    You can always steal cash but some form of credit card would be as safe as technology would allow.

    I think it would also serve to have more control of dole payments. Stop the people on the dole from buying things they don't need like fags and drink.

    Stop people doing nixers if there was no cash in hand payment.
    Make money laundering more difficult.
    Drug trade would be hard if you've got nothing to trade it against - they'd resort to barter maybe?

    Given that it has the capacity to be safer, easier to use and easier to regulate I would think that it's only a matter of how long the technology takes to mature.

    ah you are after the big brother type of cashless society. that is serious bad news


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    #18
    RMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭RMD


    Gbear wrote: »
    I think it would also serve to have more control of dole payments. Stop the people on the dole from buying things they don't need like fags and drink.

    Stop people doing nixers if there was no cash in hand payment.
    Make money laundering more difficult.
    Drug trade would be hard if you've got nothing to trade it against - they'd resort to barter maybe?

    Given that it has the capacity to be safer, easier to use and easier to regulate I would think that it's only a matter of how long the technology takes to mature.

    The last thing I want is regulation. The idea of a big brother society where what I can buy is controlled by my method of payment, cash provides freedom.


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    #19
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    Good loser wrote: »

    Below a certain size or level of income there will usually be a large amount of cash activity.

    This could well be the case. In fact I hope it is. Would hate for cash to disappear entirely due to the privacy and freedom it gives people.
    RMD wrote: »
    I'm quite pro-legalization when it comes to some drugs but to call the drugs trade a victimless crime is nothing short of pure ignorance. Tell the victims of muggings for drugs it's a victimless crime, tell the families destroyed by their junkie child / sibling it's a victimless crime.

    Many drugs can be used recreationally and without problem by responsible people, I do so myself. But there is also a handful of drugs that ruin the lives of the user, those around them and the general citizen can become a victim when a habit forms.

    [Rant Over]

    The only reason the drug trade is not victimless is because of disastrous government intervention. Taking drugs, even if they harm you personally is in effect victimless.


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    #20
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    RMD wrote: »
    The last thing I want is regulation. The idea of a big brother society where what I can buy is controlled by my method of payment, cash provides freedom.

    Regulation was probably the wrong word.

    Essentially, having no cash to hide in a "box under your bed" makes it difficult to evade taxes and also it makes it difficult for criminals to make their money disappear.

    With the right technology - no credit cards and just biometric scanners - it could make theft and identity theft a thing of the past.
    You'd have to frog march someone into a shop to buy stuff for you at knifepoint instead of just stealing their handy bits of paper money.

    Again, how much you keep your privacy is down to the details. Strong laws would be needed to stop the government from having too much power.
    Difficult to implement but not an intrinsic insurmountable problem either.


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    #21
    RMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭RMD


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    The only reason the drug trade is not victimless is because of disastrous government intervention. Taking drugs, even if they harm you personally is in effect victimless.

    I'm sorry but please tell me how that logic works? The drug trade has victims because people develop habits which they can't control and must feed, I know this from my own experience. My cousin was a heroin addict till he od'ed 4 years ago, his addiction destroyed the lives of those around him and he was a pure and utter scumbag when it came to trying to feed his habit. His case wasn't just a 1 off either, hang around for Marlborough street / Talbot street / Abbey street / North Earl Street for a space of 10 minutes and you'll see the many other junkies walking around all in the same situation.

    Personal harm I couldn't give a shíte about, that's their own choice. It's when people take habit forming drugs and can't feed it, then it becomes a problem and victims occur. That's the one good thing I can see occurring through a cashless society, it will be much harder to mug people for cash / items that can be easily sold for cash.


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    #22
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Gbear wrote: »
    They seem like engineering problems rather than intrinsic ones.
    A problem with engineering solutions is too often they neglect or omit the human nature factor.
    You can always steal cash but some form of credit card would be as safe as technology would allow.
    Riiight, yet credit card fraud is up 62% since '09, even with pin numbers and other security measures. With any security technology the system will adapt and find ways around it. One could argue credit cards make stealing easier. I had 500 quid stolen from my credit card last year. Only showed up on my bill a month later. It had been taken in some small town in the US that I've never been to and have no reason to ever visit. They didn't need to stick a musket in my face and shout "stand and deliver!". Now this is a CC with chip and pin and all that stuff. I reported it and they apologised profusely and immediately credited my account with little pressure from me. When I asked was this a regular thing and how easy was it to do, cue embarrassed silence followed by hurried excuses and no explanation. Plus as computer power gets faster and faster password security gets weaker and weaker.
    I think it would also serve to have more control of dole payments. Stop the people on the dole from buying things they don't need like fags and drink.
    Dodgy enough to start with, but I guarantee that stuff wouldn't stop with people on the dole. Next it would be checks on purchases by everyone else, with no doubt the "it's for your health" excuse. No thanks.
    Stop people doing nixers if there was no cash in hand payment.
    Make money laundering more difficult.
    Drug trade would be hard if you've got nothing to trade it against - they'd resort to barter maybe?
    Unless the entire world went cashless overnight there's one major flaw in your argument. In the absence of local cash, people would just start using other currencies for such transactions. Barter on a small scale, but more like dollars/yen/whatever on a large scale. The former USSR a good example(and there are more), where the dollar was used as a secondary currency. They could even create a second CC system.
    Given that it has the capacity to be safer, easier to use and easier to regulate I would think that it's only a matter of how long the technology takes to mature.
    It's highly debatable if it's safer, easier to regulate up to a point, but that brings it's own civil liberty issues and the technology to bring it fruition would run side by side with the technology to circumvent it. Actually the latter would likely be ahead. It usually is.
    Essentially, having no cash to hide in a "box under your bed" makes it difficult to evade taxes and also it makes it difficult for criminals to make their money disappear.
    If people started a secondary currency market it would arguably make it easier to evade taxes. Making money disappear is even easier. As we speak criminals are making money disappear using the legal banking system and the instant wiring of money again makes it easier to launder money. It's harder in practical terms with cold hard cash.
    Again, how much you keep your privacy is down to the details. Strong laws would be needed to stop the government from having too much power.
    and like turkeys will vote for Christmas... Governments(naturally) tend to seek more power over time, they rarely give it up. The average government of today has more power and regulation over everyday life than they did 50 years ago.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #23
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    I think a cashless society has some merits as long as it doesn't become a bartering economy.

    Something that overcomes the age old problem of inflation would be the greatest invention known to man. That is make everyone rich but also encourage them to spend sensibly and also not to use up scarce resources.

    Restricting the money supply which is probably sensible in helping to avoid inflation, can also cause hardship for a lot of people.

    It is an interesting area though to speculate in, what a moneyless society would be like.


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    #24
    C14N
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    However cash will never go away. For tipping, small purchases, and for where you want to be untraceable.

    Not necessarily. I for one am pro-cashless society and I think problems like this are quite easy to solve. One way to do it would be to have two cards, one like the current Laser card for large transactions and one top up card which would basically replace cash and wouldn't require a pin code or any security, just a quick scan. I think that would actually be faster than cash, I have often found myself feelingly like I'm holding people behind me up when getting change out for small transactions or gathering change up to try and shove into the wallet after the transaction.

    I think most of the mainstream world will someday switch to cashless transactions entirely, even if not in my life.


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    #25
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,432 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    C14N wrote: »
    One way to do it would be to have two cards, one like the current Laser card for large transactions and one top up card which would basically replace cash and wouldn't require a pin code or any security, just a quick scan.
    Such things already exist and you don't need two separate cards. In the Netherlands they have a facility called Chipknip that's integrated on to the same card.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipknip


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    #26
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    RMD wrote: »
    I'm sorry but please tell me how that logic works? The drug trade has victims because people develop habits which they can't control and must feed, I know this from my own experience. My cousin was a heroin addict till he od'ed 4 years ago, his addiction destroyed the lives of those around him and he was a pure and utter scumbag when it came to trying to feed his habit. His case wasn't just a 1 off either, hang around for Marlborough street / Talbot street / Abbey street / North Earl Street for a space of 10 minutes and you'll see the many other junkies walking around all in the same situation.

    Most of the harm from heroin, basically everything besides it's addictiveness AFAIK, is due to what it is cut with. It is only cut with harmful substances because it is illegal and criminals are trying to make more money.
    RMD wrote: »

    Personal harm I couldn't give a shíte about, that's their own choice. It's when people take habit forming drugs and can't feed it, then it becomes a problem and victims occur. That's the one good thing I can see occurring through a cashless society, it will be much harder to mug people for cash / items that can be easily sold for cash.

    I'm sorry to say it but your cousin unfortunately falls under the personal harm category. That is not blaming him for what happened but I would not class him as a victim.

    Correct about the mugging but I think concerns about freedom and privacy trump it.
    C14N wrote: »
    Not necessarily. I for one am pro-cashless society and I think problems like this are quite easy to solve.

    Why so?


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    #27
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    Gbear wrote: »
    .

    Again, how much you keep your privacy is down to the details. Strong laws would be needed to stop the government from having too much power.
    Difficult to implement but not an intrinsic insurmountable problem either.
    But the laws are formulated and implemented by the government....


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    #28
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Why so?
    Indeed, given the various issues I outlined above, never mind the human nature factor that is so often left out of such Great Plans(tm). I can't see it being practical for a while anyway and like I said it would nearly be a requirement that this be rolled out worldwide.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #29
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    Well armed bank robberies, tiger kidnapping and so on would become a thing of the past in a cashless society, I would imagine.

    Certainly the carrying around of physical cash makes all types or robberies from your old pensioner to your corner shop or pub right up to your large bank, very attractive targets for criminals.

    But that said, they would still look for the pin number off someone.


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    #30
    hyperborean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭hyperborean


    The cashless society is a pipe dream, and not very well thought out...

    The reduction of use is fine and dandy, efficient even but there are too many barriers to complete removel of physical legal tender. Power outages for one.


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    #31
    opti0nal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭opti0nal


    hyperborean wrote: »
    The reduction of use is fine and dandy, efficient even but there are too many barriers to complete removel of physical legal tender. Power outages for one.
    When I tried to top-up my Rail Smart Card today, it was 'cash-only' as the machines had lost their connection to the bank.

    So, add 'comms failure' to the list of disadvantages.


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