DART capacity reconfiguration

dublinman1990 · 12-09-2013 2:10pm

I assume you remember when IE combined the older DART sets with the new ones back before 2006/2007.

This was the 8100/8300 set before it's refurbishment. You remember these being connected up to..........

.....to these and.........

these when joined up to the original sets. Those were unusual times alright!

I have read from a magazine article some years ago that the 8100/8300 DART's were compatible with the latest 8500/8600 EMU's models before the original DART sets were refurbished.

But now I have read from the same magazine that they are no longer able to mix with one another because of a particular problem with the current 8100/8300 spec.

Say for example if you see a 6 carriage DART formation during the morning or evening peak in the future, it will be made up of either a 3x2 carriage 8100/8300 set instead of a single 8100/8300 set & 8500 set stuck together.

I know that the original units make over half the DART fleet but does this not count as a flaw as it makes this exercise for IE have less flexibility with DART configuration as some units are not compatible with one another?

dregin · 12-09-2013 2:44pm

Asked lads clearing it and they confirmed that IE are re-opening the old entrance to Connolly Station that leads into the underpassage to platforms 6/7.

Gonna cut a good 5 minutes for our commuters who have to walk for 10 minutes to get to the platform that's 10 metres away from our office >_<

Cunning Alias · 12-09-2013 4:00pm

loyatemu wrote: »

various reports in this thread suggest IE are now routinely running 4-car sets in the evening peak.

I got the 17:30 and 17:45 the last two days southbound from Pearse. 4 carriages and completely packed. Used to be 6 and even then it could get pretty busy.

The only thing I can think of is that IE have worked out that even if this pisses of 1/8 of the usual customers and they go take the car/bus instead, it will still be worth their while.

Frank Lee Midere · 12-09-2013 7:45pm

The 18:50 to howth was 2 carriages today. And the next malahide and howth service.

Didn't we spend money on stations equipped for 8 carriages?

Frank Lee Midere · 12-09-2013 7:46pm

Cunning Alias wrote: »

I got the 17:30 and 17:45 the last two days southbound from Pearse. 4 carriages and completely packed. Used to be 6 and even then it could get pretty busy.

The only thing I can think of is that IE have worked out that even if this pisses of 1/8 of the usual customers and they go take the car/bus instead, it will still be worth their while.

Yeah. People still take the tube.

EB_2013 · 12-09-2013 7:57pm

dregin wrote: »

Asked lads clearing it and they confirmed that IE are re-opening the old entrance to Connolly Station that leads into the underpassage to platforms 6/7.

Gonna cut a good 5 minutes for our commuters who have to walk for 10 minutes to get to the platform that's 10 metres away from our office >_<

Is that the old Amiens St entrance?

end of the road · 12-09-2013 8:13pm

highdef wrote: »

When they were loco hauled, I could swear that they used to have 6 or 7 coaches. how did that work at Rathdrum and other similar stations?

your right, the guard would anounce to move to the front of the train and it worked well, ah but shur begorra begosh we couldn't expect people to do that these days as they would have to walk and the health and safety nanny state nonsense wouldn't allow it, i weap for the good old days of proper trains and common sense

highdef · 12-09-2013 9:36pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

manual doors so you just didn't open them. new trains don't have selective door opening because IE are incompetent and can't spec a train properly.

But you did just open manual doors. You put your hand out the window and turned the handle. Nowadays, it's a push of a button. Either way, you still open them by some means.
As for the lack of selective door opening......Speechless! :eek:

dregin · 12-09-2013 11:24pm

EB_2013 wrote: »

Is that the old Amiens St entrance?

It is, yep.

dublinman1990 · 13-09-2013 10:46am

Anyone who had any thought of this idea within IE should rightly be sacked on the spot while providing a sub-standard service.

I was on another 2 carriage DART at Tara Street at 7:20pm yesterday evening while it was going towards Bray.

I had to run with all the other passengers on the platform to get to the 2nd carriage. The train got full to the gills again when it arrived at Pearse Station after I boarded the train after one stop.

It was absolutely unbearable as it got quite hot & stuffy when inside the train.

When I am thinking about it; the platform dwell times with a 2 carriage DART are getting between 30 seconds to 1 minute longer per station. I had seen that there was an northbound DART stopping at Sydney Parade that also had two carriages on it possibly starting before 7pm.

bikeman1 · 13-09-2013 11:19am

Like a case of read it on boards, IE sort it. The 16:30 Greystones - Malahide was an 8 car yesterday.

I was traveling on a 2 car late yesterday evening and it felt a lot safer than the vast 6/8 cars off peak. Driver was stopping at the correct locations etc.

What I did notice was it struggled pulling away from some stations with a mild amount of wheel slip. Having only one set makes a difference as it can't be "helped" along with other traction motors. That should be interesting as we get into the leaf fall season.

The only issue I can see is that they are putting out the 2 cars just a little too early. Need to leave all departures up to 1930 from town as 4 +. As mentioned a lot of people dont finish until 1830 - 1900.

Cunning Alias · 13-09-2013 11:38am

17:30 south from Pearse yesterday was a 6 carriage like it used to be. Don't know what to think now.

PRAF · 13-09-2013 11:47am

bikeman1 wrote: »

Like a case of read it on boards, IE sort it. The 16:30 Greystones - Malahide was an 8 car yesterday.

I was traveling on a 2 car late yesterday evening and it felt a lot safer than the vast 6/8 cars off peak. Driver was stopping at the correct locations etc.

What I did notice was it struggled pulling away from some stations with a mild amount of wheel slip. Having only one set makes a difference as it can't be "helped" along with other traction motors. That should be interesting as we get into the leaf fall season.

The only issue I can see is that they are putting out the 2 cars just a little too early. Need to leave all departures up to 1930 from town as 4 +. As mentioned a lot of people dont finish until 1830 - 1900.

I suspect they've been getting a lot of negative feedback from customers (and probably some of their drivers as well). Hopefully they have the cop on to make a few adjustments.

LXFlyer · 13-09-2013 11:50am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Anyone who had any thought of this idea within IE should rightly be sacked on the spot while providing a sub-standard service.

I was on another 2 carriage DART at Tara Street at 7:20pm yesterday evening while it was going towards Bray.

I had to run with all the other passengers on the platform to get to the 2nd carriage. The train got full to the gills again when it arrived at Pearse Station after I boarded the train after one stop.

It was absolutely unbearable as it got quite hot & stuffy when inside the train.

When I am thinking about it; the platform dwell times with a 2 carriage DART are getting between 30 seconds to 1 minute longer per station. I had seen that there was an northbound DART stopping at Sydney Parade that also had two carriages on it possibly starting before 7pm.

A somewhat extreme response I would suggest. With any change like this there are going to be capacity issues arising - it is somewhat an inexact science. The key is that the company needs to be seen to respond to overcrowding issues as they arise and reconfigure the sets as needed.

From the posts below the one quoted above, it would appear that there have been some changes already.

EB_2013 · 13-09-2013 11:54am

dregin wrote: »

It is, yep.

Great, should knock a few minutes off the walk along the long platform which exists now.

Frank Lee Midere · 13-09-2013 12:12pm

lxflyer wrote: »

A somewhat extreme response I would suggest. With any change like this there are going to be capacity issues arising - it is somewhat an inexact science. The key is that the company needs to be seen to respond to overcrowding issues as they arise and reconfigure the sets as needed.

From the posts below the one quoted above, it would appear that there have been some changes already.

If they have responded them fair play.

lord lucan · 13-09-2013 3:05pm

dregin wrote: »

Asked lads clearing it and they confirmed that IE are re-opening the old entrance to Connolly Station that leads into the underpassage to platforms 6/7.

Gonna cut a good 5 minutes for our commuters who have to walk for 10 minutes to get to the platform that's 10 metres away from our office >_<

Slightly off topic but I've been curious for years as to what the old station Hall was like after it closed. Must be my bizarre interest in ghost stations and the fact I used to use it catching maynooth line trains. I can still picture it, a small retail unit on the left inside the door and then the ticket desks further along on the left. The turnstiles were directly in front of the desks followed by some steep steps that brought you to the subway to platforms 6&7.

I'd imagine it'll have to be made PRM friendly as I don't recall any ramps or lifts and I'd be surprised If they made anyone with a disability go the long way around.

TheBandicoot · 13-09-2013 3:32pm

It would have been a good idea as well to have an entrance on Seville Row(connected up to the platform 6/7 island, say), to easily expand the station's catchment and cut back on people double-backing on themselves. Too late for that now.

dowlingm · 15-09-2013 6:42pm

Is it necessary to make all entrances to a building accessible? All entrances not grandfathered/kept in continuous use?

sdanseo · 15-09-2013 8:30pm

Hardly surprising that all this happens when the network is subvented each year to the tune of hundreds of millions of euro because it is inherently loss-making.

Fuel costs for 4-car instead of 2-car services are the smallest possible saving in comparison to some areas where they could save huge cash.

Either way, the whole thing should be privatised. Try working to targets and fire those that consistently fail to hit them. Simple.

dowlingm · 16-09-2013 3:57am

Simply saying privatize isn't an answer. This isn't like LUAS where a blank sheet was possible.

PRAF · 16-09-2013 4:54pm

Yeah, I'm not sure privatisation is the answer here. The reality is that Irish Rail are a bit of a bellwether for the rest of the economy. One big part of the reason for the deficit in all of CIE (including Irish Rail) is that there are hundreds of thousands less people working now than there were in 2008. That's a hell of a lot of lost revenue and IMO you cannot fairly attribute any blame to CIE for that.

Another big part of the problem is that the govt has steadily cut the amount of subvention they've given them (they are one of the least subsidised public transport operators in Europe IIRC - at least that's what they claim). Take away the cut in subvention and they would probably be profit making. Furthermore, they have been encouraged to 'invest' in staff rationalisation schemes that require a big upfront investment which again adds to their deficits in the short term.

Before anyone argues that CIE should not be subsidised in anyway, please note that there are significant obligations imposed on CIE in terms of running loss making routes all over the place. People are all for private sector style efficiencies until they find out that the No.XX bus no longer stops directly outside their grannies house.

That said, I'm 100% sure that CIE (including Irish Rail) is also riddled with inefficiencies, poor practices, dreadful management, etc which also contributes hugely to high costs. However, in this case I don't think privatisation is the answer.

PRAF · 16-09-2013 5:06pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Simply saying privatize isn't an answer. This isn't like LUAS where a blank sheet was possible.

You're right, it's always better to design a system from scratch rather than starting with an imperfect system and trying to change it.

By and large Transdev seems to do a good job of running it and they offer a pretty decent service (high frequency, good reliability, etc.). Certainly, it would be great to see the same high frequency on the DART line (if they can ever overcome the bottlenecks on the line itself). I wouldn't object if Irish Rail was forced to compete with Transdev in a tender to run the DART from say 2020 onwards.

That said, I'd imagine the DART service is at least as profitable as the LUAS. The real losses for Irish Rail are surely in running services such as Limerick to Waterford, Cork to Middleton, Limerick to Athenry, etc. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any real analysis of the profitability of their routes in their annual reports. They are doing themselves a great disservice in this because its hard for the general public to see what the loss making routes are.

Another big cost imposed on CIE seems to be the free travel scheme for older people and various categories of social welfare recipients. Socially it is a good thing (depending on your perspective) but I'd imagine it is also costly to run

end of the road · 16-09-2013 5:38pm

sdeire wrote: »

Hardly surprising that all this happens when the network is subvented each year to the tune of hundreds of millions of euro because it is inherently loss-making.

it would have to be subsidized anyway, do you expect it to run on thin air? would have to be funded by government even with privatisation and such funding would have to increase

sdeire wrote: »

Fuel costs for 4-car instead of 2-car services are the smallest possible saving in comparison to some areas where they could save huge cash.

what areas are these? close more routes/services even though that has been proven not to work?

sdeire wrote: »

the whole thing should be privatised.

yeah, because that would make people be able to afford the cost to use the service and offer faster and more frequent services with more carriges right? wrong, prices would go up, services would be cut, the number of carriges on trains would go down, the subsidy would have to increase, one is delusianel if they think privatisation is going to sort out CIE, investment and more of it can deliver more for your buck with CIE then without

sdeire wrote: »

Try working to targets and fire those that consistently fail to hit them.

what targets? the ones that the pro privatise everything/sell it off to the highist bidder/their little friends make up in their heads? you see privatising everything and then getting people to work to "targets" may work in a shop or factory but it won't work on the railways unless investment in removing bottlenecks and upgrading track (which has happened) gets to the rest of the network, and even with that CIE could still deliver the same if not more so no need to sell off our railways to the highist bidder

sdeire wrote: »

Simple.

wrong, not simple at all, privatisation won't stop trains from being delayed, signalling systems or trains breaking down, solve bottlenecks or any of the so called "targets" you want everything to be privatised to supposibly meet, if private operators want to use the railways along with CIE thats a different story but a private monopoly is not the way to go either

PRAF · 16-09-2013 5:49pm

Funny enough, I think one of the biggest things CIE could do to safeguard their subvention is to highlight the importance and the volume of the loss making services they operate.

Also, the services they operate are massively important to the overall economy. Again, they could do a better job of highlighting this so that they aren't seen as such an easy target for a govt intent on cost cutting.

That said, they should also try to help themselves by proactively making cuts that don't decimate customer services. Moreover, they should be implementing projects to bring in more revenue. There are various ideas out there in terms of extending the line, creating new lines, creating spurs off existing lines, etc. However, CIE keep scaring people off because they are looking for billions to do these projects

MurdyWurdy · 17-09-2013 5:53pm

I got the dart into town from Dalkey today. Left Dalkey at 12.22 and it was not a 2 carriage dart. Got on the dart again in Pearse just before 4pm and again it was at least a 4 carriage dart. I would have presumed those times were off peak and should be 2 carriages.

My husband just texted from Pearse station saying he can't get on the dart. They're 4 carriage and delayed and it's chaos. What on earth are they playing at?

smackyB · 17-09-2013 8:54pm

Caught DART at 18.30 from Pearse to Greystones that was only 4 carriages today. Completely packed and left people standing at platforms from Pearse to Sandymount. This is incredibly damaging to the DART's reputation and I can imagine a lot of people will abandon it for their cars if Irish Rail keep this up. Shambolic.

shamrock2004 · 17-09-2013 10:06pm

smackyB wrote: »

Caught DART at 18.30 from Pearse to Greystones that was only 4 carriages today. Completely packed and left people standing at platforms from Pearse to Sandymount. This is incredibly damaging to the DART's reputation and I can imagine a lot of people will abandon it for their cars if Irish Rail keep this up. Shambolic.

I got the 7.15 train northbound from lansdowne which was only 2 carriages. It was disgraceful. There were what sounded like 4 pikeys in the same carriage running up and down it hurling abuse at a junkie for 'smoking heroin on the dart'. 19.15 in my opinion is still on peak - maybe irish rail have forgotten that those of us in the private sector have a working day that doesn't end at 6pm. At least when the trains were longer you could move away from these scrotes. Not anymore! Ill be send irish rail a complaint tomorrow about what they have done to shorten the number of carriages. Ive taken the dart nearly every working day since 1997 and i would have no problem ditching my ticket and going back to the car. And whats more, my comany pays for the ticket and i'd still rather drive if this keeps up.

Oh and to top it all, there will be a fare increase in the new year. It just gets better!

dowlingm · 18-09-2013 4:17am

PRAF wrote: »

You're right, it's always better to design a system from scratch rather than starting with an imperfect system and trying to change it.

i'm not saying it is impossible to privatize either, just that throwing "sell em off" into the discussion isn't helpful unless issues like TUPE, letters of comfort, where the demarcations would be between CIE and the private entity are addressed rather than wished away as some do.

davidlacey · 19-09-2013 6:38pm

On the 18.25 bray to howth service which was being split into a four car set at bray station as it always does and when they were uncoupling we were told to leave the train and go over the bridge to platform two as the dart had encountered a technical fault, and the dart which was swiftly provided was a 2 car set which as always stopped at the very top of the platform which made the walk that little longer. When we departed the driver announced that he apologised for the two carriage set it was all they had available. Needless to say the train is packed!

DART capacity reconfiguration

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