Speed Cameras - You are not above the law no matter where you are caught!

HelterSkelter · 03-05-2007 3:12pm

Alun wrote:

Exactly, but it all hinges on the interpretation of "pull in to the hard shoulder briefly". To my mind thos doesn't mean "briefly swerve onto it and continue to drive along it at 100 km/h" it means pull over and stop. AFAIK actually driving on the hard shoulder is still illegal for whatever reason.

I don't mean to be rude, but if you use your common sense, you will realise that you don't pull into the hard shoulder and stop, you continue driving but just pull over to let the person pass safely. That is the problem with Irish drivers, a lot of them are too caught up on rules and regulations, don't understand the reasons for these rules and are unable to apply common sense to driving.

Alun · 03-05-2007 3:20pm

HelterSkelter wrote:

I don't mean to be rude, but if you use your common sense, you will realise that you don't pull into the hard shoulder and stop, you continue driving but just pull over to let the person pass safely. That is the problem with Irish drivers, a lot of them are too caught up on rules and regulations, don't understand the reasons for these rules and are unable to apply common sense to driving.

I use my common sense, as you put it, by not driving on a piece of the carriageway that is frequently strewn with gravel, stones and broken glass thus potentially either puncturing my tyres or throwing up a stone onto the driver overtaking me and breaking his windscreen. If someone wants to overtake me, fine, but I'm not putting myself at risk to facilitate that. They can wait for a safe opportunity like everyone else.

I'm only a recent immigrant to this island, and I have to say that this whole Irish thing of using the hard shoulder effectively as an extra lane is possibly one of the most potentially dangerous things I ever see when driving on single carriageway N roads.

astraboy · 03-05-2007 3:26pm

There is a stretch of road between the halfway (after Bandon) and Cork city that is wide, straight and has a large hard shoulder. I admit I will probably ease over the speed limit here, if conditions are clear and traffic is light. However, slower drivers, ones going under the limit or at it, often have the common sense and courtesy to ease over towards the left hand side of the lane or move briefly into the right hand part of the wide hard shoulder to allow other traffic to pass. A few vehicles will often pass out, it is safe and the person that has eased over has shown both care and courtesy to the other drivers that choose to drive at a marginally higher speed. This also has the benefit of allowing people to pass out a driver that may be at the limit on this stretch of road, but will drop their speed considerably when the road becomes less wide after the roundabout at the halfway. This means people can carry out their passing out maneuver on a safer stretch of road then further on in the journey. While they may be breaking the limit when passing out, I feel it is safer to pass out at 10/15kph over the limit(at times!) if it means you spend less time over on the other side of the road.

Also regarding Moleary, the guy worked with the Florida police, I'm sure he has seen plenty of bad driving and attended many more accidents then others on this forum, so in my view that makes him more qualified to speak about doddering drivers. Slow drivers cause frustration to other drivers and if you are not able to carry on driving at a reasonable pace(this of course taking into account conditions etc) then have the sense to pull over and let others get on their way.

Speed limits are not targets as some people have said, nor are they an optimum speed to drive at. I prefer people to use due care and judgment to select a safe speed for them and the vehicle they are driving. How does one get this amazing thing called judgment? Experience and training.

Again, most of the issues on our roads will not be solved by cameras, but by a change in attitude, by both those on the road and those in power. Introducing training will have an effect over several years. More police on the roads will allow them to pull over the people driving dangerously and issue points, or if its a minor infraction a good telling off has an amazing effect on peoples attitudes.

BrianD3 · 03-05-2007 3:30pm

HelterSkelter wrote:

I don't mean to be rude, but if you use your common sense, you will realise that you don't pull into the hard shoulder and stop, you continue driving but just pull over to let the person pass safely. That is the problem with Irish drivers, a lot of them are too caught up on rules and regulations, don't understand the reasons for these rules and are unable to apply common sense to driving.

Actually, common sense would dictate that driving in the hard shoulder is prohibited just as it is in every other country. I think Ireland is the only country in Europe where there is the "pseudo hard shoulder" which as well as being an emergency lane is also used by slow moving vehicles, as an acceleration/deceleration lane, by people having picnics, as a parking area, by peds and cyclists. Now not all of the above may be legal but that's what the HS is being used for.

Ever watch someone pull out of a private entrance into the HS? Often they do so *assuming* that the HS is not part of the road and that there won't be any vehicles bearing down on them at 100 km/h

Yes the ROTR says that drivers "may" use the HS if there are no entrances "nearby" but that is far too vague and a cop out IMO. The situation with HS use in this country is unsatisfactory. Having said that if all tractors on N roads refused to use the HS, the place would be in chaos.

HelterSkelter · 03-05-2007 3:32pm

Great post astraboy, full of the common sense I was talking about that so many lack

ambro25 · 03-05-2007 3:35pm

franksm wrote:

"If a driver wants to allow a vehicle behind them to overtake, they may pull in to the hard shoulder briefly as long as no pedestrians or cyclists are already using it and no junctions or
entrances are nearby.

Different rules exist for hard shoulders on motorways. See
Section 11 for details."

Just a quick query - how long has this rule existed in IE ROTRs?

Methinks it's grounded in roads/cars/speeds/traffic volume and the like dating back to Mathusalem, and that it's due an update

HelterSkelter · 03-05-2007 3:37pm

ambro25 wrote:

Just a quick query - how long has this rule existed in IE ROTRs?

Methinks it's grounded in roads/cars/speeds/traffic volume and the like dating back to Mathusalem, and that it's due an update

I could be wrong but I think it was only added to the lastest version released this year

Alun · 03-05-2007 3:41pm

HelterSkelter wrote:

I could be wrong but I think it was only added to the lastest version released this year

No, I'm pretty sure it was in the last version as well.

ambro25 · 03-05-2007 3:44pm

I'd say some heads at the Transport Ministry should roll, then, because it's criminally idiotic - though I don't believe you're correct, as I distinctly remember having these kinds of debate in here, about this iconoclastic 'use' of the reservation, long before this year or last.

Alun · 03-05-2007 3:58pm

ambro25 wrote:

I'd say some heads at the Transport Ministry should roll, then, because it's criminally idiotic - though I don't believe you're correct, as I distinctly remember having these kinds of debate in here, about this iconoclastic 'use' of the reservation, long before this year or last.

Here's the relevant page (crap scan, I know) ... Slightly different wording though.

Marcus.Aurelius · 03-05-2007 4:07pm

As stated by other posters, it is fully legal to use the hard shoulder. FYI, it is illegal to remain in the hard shoulder for prolonged periods of time, such as around a bend, for obvious reasons as well as near junctions on your side.

We as a nation are a bunch of "me me me me me" drivers and will remain so as long as there are people like Head and Srameen getting licenses. The rest of us know that driving is a privilege, not a right. You have no right to drive as you like, you are privileged to be allowed to do so, so treat it as such. You have a duty to other drivers because it is a priviledge, not a right.

Agree in full with astraboy (excellent post!), MrP and others who have clearly stated the rules allow use of the shoulder to allow traffic to move. It should be made mandatory like in Florida, where the shoulder is good and there is a line of traffic stuck behind the driver.

Marcus.Aurelius · 03-05-2007 4:09pm

BrianD3 wrote:

Actually, common sense would dictate that driving in the hard shoulder is prohibited just as it is in every other country. I think Ireland is the only country in Europe where there is the "pseudo hard shoulder" which as well as being an emergency lane is also used by slow moving vehicles, as an acceleration/deceleration lane, by people having picnics, as a parking area, by peds and cyclists. Now not all of the above may be legal but that's what the HS is being used for.

Ever watch someone pull out of a private entrance into the HS? Often they do so *assuming* that the HS is not part of the road and that there won't be any vehicles bearing down on them at 100 km/h

Yes the ROTR says that drivers "may" use the HS if there are no entrances "nearby" but that is far too vague and a cop out IMO. The situation with HS use in this country is unsatisfactory. Having said that if all tractors on N roads refused to use the HS, the place would be in chaos.

The british are excellent for letting cars by, they are also allowed to use the shoulder for brief periods to let cars pass.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 03-05-2007 4:34pm

maoleary wrote:

The rest of us know that driving is a privilege, not a right. You have no right to drive as you like, you are privileged to be allowed to do so, so treat it as such. You have a duty to other drivers because it is a priviledge, not a right.

I most certainly will allow any faster moving traffic past, if I am for some reason travelling below the speed limit. NOT if I am at the speed limit.

As regards duty to other drivers and the privilege of driving; I am very aware of this and drive accordingly, but are the idiots who deliberatly speed and endanger other road users equally aware of you noble sentiments?

BTW: not all routes have hard shoulders

Marcus.Aurelius · 03-05-2007 4:43pm

Julio Straight Vessel wrote:

BTW: not all routes have hard shoulders

Irrelevant, most do. Are you so righteous and great that you can't allow another driver to overtake you?

If you were in Florida when I was in the HP, I would have arrested your as*!! :cool:

From your posts its obvious that you are a stuck-up, ignorant and full of it vigilante.

(My apologies to kbannon if this post is too strong)

Seth Brundle · 03-05-2007 4:43pm

So you admit to deliberatley holding up traffic that wants to pass. You have no idea why they are going fast - maybe there is an emergency!
You, I presume, are not the law.
Even if they are not driving fast with mitigating circumstances, do you really want to have someone who is likely to be getting frustrated behind you? They are then more likely to take risks.

HelterSkelter · 03-05-2007 4:46pm

Julio Straight Vessel wrote:

I most certainly will allow any faster moving traffic past, if I am for some reason travelling below the speed limit. NOT if I am at the speed limit.

Why don't you make a phone call to the following people and ask them what you should do if there is faster traffic behind you and you are at the speed limit. I think they will all tell you that you should not impede the traffic from overtaking you
1) The IAM (Irish Advanced Motorists)
2) Gardaí Traffic Core
3) The AA

With all due respect you are an idiot driver and your licence should be taken away from you.

lintdrummer · 03-05-2007 5:02pm

HelterSkelter wrote:

Have a look at this for a laugh!

http://www.irishspeedtraps.com/SpeedLimits.aspx

LMAO! Great find, justifies my point completely. Seems this thread is quickly turning into a debate about the hard shoulder rule rather than the speed camera topic it began as... :cool:

astraboy · 03-05-2007 5:11pm

Julio Straight Vessel wrote:

I most certainly will allow any faster moving traffic past, if I am for some reason travelling below the speed limit. NOT if I am at the speed limit.

As regards duty to other drivers and the privilege of driving; I am very aware of this and drive accordingly, but are the idiots who deliberatly speed and endanger other road users equally aware of you noble sentiments?

Sorry, but who made you offical lord high preserver of the moral fiber of the country, deciding what speeds other drivers can drive at?! The audacity of that post strikes me as someone that believes they are always correct and see no fault in their driving. What if there was someone behind you in a rush to get their child to hospital? I'm sure you'd feel all high and mighty then right? If someone chooses to go over the limit they are aware of the consequences. They may have made a conscious choice to do so as the road conditions allow them to do this safely without endangering others. Stopping them passing you out is not only selfish but dangerous.

You are supposed to show due care and attention to other users. Just because you are sticking to the limit does not make you safer, the other driver a 5kph over the limit might be more aware or paying better attention, or know the road better. As someone said in another thread, I would prefer if people watched their speed and not just their speedometer!:)

franksm · 03-05-2007 5:14pm

maoleary wrote:

The british are excellent for letting cars by, they are also allowed to use the shoulder for brief periods to let cars pass.

No, that last part is wrong. In the UK the HS is only ever for three situations:

- breakdown
- in an emergency
- when told to do so by Police

http://www.2pass.co.uk/motorway.htm

http://www.greenflag.com/downloads/hardshoulderguide.pdf

Ireland really should be brought into line similarly

Alun · 03-05-2007 5:16pm

franksm wrote:

No, that last part is wrong. In the UK the HS is only ever for three situations:

- breakdown
- in an emergency
- when told to do so by Police

http://www.2pass.co.uk/motorway.htm

http://www.greenflag.com/downloads/hardshoulderguide.pdf

Ireland really should be brought into line similarly

True. Plus hard shoulders on single carriageway roads are as rare as hen's teeth over there.

Marcus.Aurelius · 03-05-2007 5:25pm

franksm wrote:

No, that last part is wrong. In the UK the HS is only ever for three situations:

- breakdown
- in an emergency
- when told to do so by Police

http://www.2pass.co.uk/motorway.htm

http://www.greenflag.com/downloads/h...ulderguide.pdf

Ireland really should be brought into line similarly

Both your sources relate to HS on motorways. Read your sources! Nobody advocates using hard shoulders on motorways. We're talking about single lane roads here!

Alun · 03-05-2007 5:56pm

maoleary wrote:

Both your sources relate to HS on motorways. Read your sources! Nobody advocates using hard shoulders on motorways. We're talking about single lane roads here!

I don't recall ever seeing a hard shoulder on a single carriageway A or B road in the UK, so it's a moot point. If there is any tarmac between the edge marker and the verge, it's always separated by a solid white line, not a broken line, like here, so you're not allowed to cross it anyway, except in case of emergency.

ambro25 · 03-05-2007 7:11pm

There's a bit disingenuity on the part of the 'pro - hard shoulder' brigade here... I've just re-read the thread quickly, and for the life of me, I am unable to see exactly where people (like me) who said they would not use the hard shoulder to let someone overtake them, have also said they would not let themselves be overtaken.

I'll gladly let you maloeary (and others) overtake me if you're in a hurry, but

(i) my duties also extend to my passengers (first and foremost, actually), whom I must not endanger by driving on a surface not designed to be driven (at 90 or 100 km/h) on, and

(ii) passengers or not, in equity (that's in front of a Judge, ROTR notwithstanding), your duties to me, as I am law-abiding driver pottering along at the national speed limit and you propose to break them by driving faster to overtake me, override my 'duties' to you.

As I have posted before, if you can't overtake me without me having to get onto the hard shoulder, then (i) you shouldn't be overtaking and by association, (ii) you shouldn't be driving.

Thank God you're not in the Force, you've just about proven you're absolutely incapable of exercising any of that judgement we were initially discussing (on topic, might I add) in relation to speeding and speed cameras.

EDIT - No hard shoulder on any A road in the UK, Alun? You ever been on the A616/A628 (Sheffield-Manchester over Penines)? Only joking, m8

astraboy · 03-05-2007 8:13pm

We don't mean you pull into the hard shoulder and put your left wheels up on the ditch. the road I have in mind (Bandon to Cork city, from halfway village if anyone knows it) has a very wide hard shoulder. People do not pull right over into the shoulder. They might edge over towards the righthand edge of the hard shoulder, at most maybe having 40-50% of the width of their car in the shoulder. This hard shoulder has no enterances for several miles so is safe. If no hard shoulder is there then I'm sure what people mean is that you keep a safe road position and allow someone to pass out if they desire.

Moleary was not saying you need to be in the bloody field next to the road for him to pass out, but to move over slightly on a large road with a shoulder as a courtesy to others if you can. Its being blown out of all proporation here as usual.

There is nothing more fustrating then being behind someone going well under the limit on a road with little opportunity to pass out(ie corners) and when we reach a decent straight to pass out on, BOOM, they are suddenly going far faster then before. Once the straight is finished they go back to the crawl they were at before:mad: . Very bad driving and shows poor consideration for others. Not suggesting posters here do it, but my experience on national secondary roads in Cork shows some people do and its fustrating, annoying and plain dangerous as they speed up when someone wants to pass out.

Now can we get back on the topic of speed cameras?

Alun · 03-05-2007 8:18pm

ambro25 wrote:

EDIT - No hard shoulder on any A road in the UK, Alun? You ever been on the A616/A628 (Sheffield-Manchester over Pennines)? Only joking, m8

Probably, since I lived in Manchester for a bit .. can't recall seeing any hard shoulders though

I'm off on an epic cross country journey from Holyhead to East Norfolk and back at the weekend, so I'll keep an eye out and report any sightings

ambro25 · 03-05-2007 10:41pm

Alun wrote:

Probably, since I lived in Manchester for a bit .. can't recall seeing any hard shoulders though I'm off on an epic cross country journey from Holyhead to East Norfolk and back at the weekend, so I'll keep an eye out and report any sightings

... there and back just for the week-end :eek: Woa - some trip alright!

[from experience: best to do it with the ferry landing at Holyhead @ about 23:45-ish, you can let rip 100mph+ all the way to Chester, maybe even as far as Manchester, just watch out at the big stone bridge (forgot name, duh!) about 20 miles after Holyhead, boys in blue often waiting on sliproad at south end (towards Chest./Manch.)

erm... yes, I confess, I can at times be way up there with the best speed merchants around!]

astraboy wrote:

We don't mean you pull into the hard shoulder and put your left wheels up on the ditch.

Never said you did. Only remarked that what you lot are arguing is a rule (so applicable everywhere) is idiotic because, putting aside all the reasons already posted in the thread and grounded in basic common sense, the road network in Ireland (in my short but meaningful local experience) is a country mile away from being standardised enough to apply this 'as a rule'

Case in point:

astraboy wrote:

the road I have in mind (Bandon to Cork city, from halfway village if anyone knows it) has a very wide hard shoulder. People do not pull right over into the shoulder. They might edge over towards the righthand edge of the hard shoulder, at most maybe having 40-50% of the width of their car in the shoulder. This hard shoulder has no enterances for several miles so is safe.

That kind of road is far from being the norm, even around Dublin, never mind on a major road network to Galway (say).

astraboy wrote:

If no hard shoulder is there then I'm sure what people mean is that you keep a safe road position and allow someone to pass out if they desire.

Such as staying in your lane at the speed limit, so you are predictable to following drivers (which is the most consideration/care/duty a driver should extend to his followers).

astraboy wrote:

Moleary was not saying you need to be in the bloody field next to the road for him to pass out, but to move over slightly on a large road with a shoulder as a courtesy to others if you can. Its being blown out of all proporation here as usual.

Erm... who said anything about needing to be in a field? Who's blowing things out of proportions here?

If the example road is so 'large', why-o-why do you need to get the car overtaken to pull aside: is the supposition that the road is wider in your direction than in the oncoming direction?

Put simply, isn't the oncoming lane wide enough for you to go there while you overtake?

There's no question of blowing anything out of proportion, and yes the thread appears to have veered a bit (pun intended) but overtaking and speeding are ever-so-closely related

astraboy wrote:

There is nothing more fustrating then being behind someone going well under the limit on a road with little opportunity to pass out(ie corners) and when we reach a decent straight to pass out on, BOOM, they are suddenly going far faster then before. Once the straight is finished they go back to the crawl they were at before:mad: . Very bad driving and shows poor consideration for others. Not suggesting posters here do it, but my experience on national secondary roads in Cork shows some people do and its fustrating, annoying and plain dangerous as they speed up when someone wants to pass out.

I understand this situation perfectly well, but *fact and degree approach called for* [devil's advocate] is it more a case of a careful driver adapting their speed to the road conditions? [/devil's advocate]

astraboy wrote:

Now can we get back on the topic of speed cameras?

They don't record dangerous contributing factors (of which speeding is only one, and not always relevant at all), only a millisecond of unlawfulness.

Using a judgement approach, 105km/h in a 100 zone on a bright sunny day with a clean and clear surface and no traffic is unlikely to have any significant consequences, even in an emergency situation, but 105km/h in the same 100 zone in a moonless fog-bound rainy night with a water-clogged surface and moderate traffic is most likely to have very significant consequences. Education is the issue... Oh, and increasing desensitisation of drivers relative to their surroundings in modern cars (somehow, 150 km/h in a 2006 car doesn't quite feel as fast as 150 km/h in a 1997 car

).

Carry on

gyppo · 04-05-2007 12:07am

franksm wrote:

The Irish rules do say:

"If a driver wants to allow a vehicle
behind them to overtake, they may
pull in to the hard shoulder briefly as
long as no pedestrians or cyclists are
already using it and no junctions or
entrances are nearby.
Different rules exist for hard
shoulders on motorways. See
Section 11 for details."

Source: http://www.rsa.ie/Home/upload/File/ROTR_2007.pdf

To be honest, I still wouldn't be inclined to use the hard shoulder unless it was obviously very clear *and* in good condition, which most of them are not.

BrianD3 wrote:

Actually, common sense would dictate that driving in the hard shoulder is prohibited just as it is in every other country. I think Ireland is the only country in Europe where there is the "pseudo hard shoulder" which as well as being an emergency lane is also used by slow moving vehicles, as an acceleration/deceleration lane, by people having picnics, as a parking area, by peds and cyclists. Now not all of the above may be legal but that's what the HS is being used for.

Ever watch someone pull out of a private entrance into the HS? Often they do so *assuming* that the HS is not part of the road and that there won't be any vehicles bearing down on them at 100 km/h

Yes the ROTR says that drivers "may" use the HS if there are no entrances "nearby" but that is far too vague and a cop out IMO.

I would just like to add that I witnessed a horrible accident a few years ago, where a person pulled into the hard shoulder to let another car overtake. As he did so, a family man with two kids came out of his own driveway (this was on the N6 - outside Athlone), and into the path of the guy on the hard shoulder. No fatalities, thankfully, but some badly hurt children and father. Of course, the guy who was in the process of overtaking did'nt even see it in his rearview mirror.

Is there any Primary route in this country which is free of such entrances? I can't think of any.

This is why, I for one, will NEVER pull into the hard shoulder to let someone overtake. I will drive on the extreme left of my lane if someone wants to overtake me, and if thats not good enough, well then tuff sh1t paddy.

IrishRover · 04-05-2007 11:17am

gyppo wrote:

Is there any Primary route in this country which is free of such entrances? I can't think of any.

I can tell you that yes there are. I've driven on Irish national routes where both the lanes and the hard shoulders are so wide and of such good quality that English friends ask, genuinely confused, why it is not simply made into a dual carriageway.

That to me is an interesting question, as if it were, it would be a dual carriageway without a hard shoulder. We would not be used to that, whereas the English would. I often wondered on English A roads, what would you do if you broke down, as I noticed a distinct lack of hard shoulder too. I figured there must be some kind of plan in place. I guess there isn't because I got stuck on the A27 for ages because a truck broke down and had no where to go but just stop in the road, blocking traffic.

Regarding whether it is safe to drive in a hard shoulder, I think the reason for people's differeing opinions is that we are all picturing different hard shoulders on different roads.

Anyway, I want off this thread now!

Ronan H · 04-05-2007 11:19am

HelterSkelter wrote:

To the OP, it's illegal to be intoxicated in a public place. How would you feel if the Guards set up outside your local and arrested everyone as they walked home? After all, being intoxicated in a public place, even if you are not causing any trouble, is breaking the law.

I wish they bloody well would set up a checkpoint up the road from pubs and catch all the idiots that drink AND drive, that would make more sense... They are the ones causing the accidents and deaths, not people who obey the speed limit :mad:.

As for the rest of the posts since i was here yesterday...slow down will yis i cant keep up :eek:. I go to work for one night and the place is flooded, ill be hours getting through them all :rolleyes:.

Slow Head

IrishRover · 04-05-2007 11:28am

His point was that there are lots of things that are illegal, which if enforced rigorously would be farcical. Therefore he is saying that the concrete statement that "speeding is speeding" (I take that to mean that there can be no mitigating circumstances or leeway given or discrection in enforcement) is not a reasonable attitude to adpot. It's a bit like the distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. We all know it is possible to abide by the letter of the law, and yet be making a mockery of the spirit of the law (the reason it was created, or effect its existence was hoped to achieve in the first place).

Speed Cameras - You are not above the law no matter where you are caught!

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