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The Windy Road to Nowhere

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    #512
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    yaboya1 wrote: »
    How reliable a marathon predictor do you find the Yasso 800 sessions RFR? You must be pleased with the results considering you took shorter recoveries than recommended?

    I've always found them fairly reliable to be honest. I suppose standalone, it'd be hard to say exactly, but when I can manage the Yassos at the goal pace, and the PMP miles in the long runs, I've always gotten within a minute or two of the goal marathon time. Regarding the recovery time, I've always felt that the recommended recovery time is too long, and usually am happy with about two minutes. Definitely pleased that I got through that session last night, confidence booster at an important time. Lots, lots more important sessions to come though, the goal is aggressive, so to have any chance, I need to be in very good shape, and stay healthy.


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    #513
    yaboya1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    RunForestRun wrote: »
    I've always found them fairly reliable to be honest. I suppose standalone, it'd be hard to say exactly, but when I can manage the Yassos at the goal pace, and the PMP miles in the long runs, I've always gotten within a minute or two of the goal marathon time. Regarding the recovery time, I've always felt that the recommended recovery time is too long, and usually am happy with about two minutes. Definitely pleased that I got through that session last night, confidence booster at an important time. Lots, lots more important sessions to come though, the goal is aggressive, so to have any chance, I need to be in very good shape, and stay healthy.

    Sounds like a good guide so.
    I've decided not to do the 8-10k race recommended on my plan two weeks out from Berlin, and was going to substitute that with with a Yasso 800 session instead. Do you see that as an adequate replacement?


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    #514
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Yes, I'd see the effort as being somewhat close to a 10k race or so, but without major recovery issues, so go for it.


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    #515
    yaboya1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    One more question and then I promise I'll stop the hijack on your log :P.
    I've got an MP session 3 weeks out from the marathon (18m with 14 @ MP). I was thinking of increasing this to 20m (with 16m @ MP). I know you're a big advocate of long runs with MP miles, so would you recommend this change?


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    #516
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    I reckon 16 MP is too much, to be honest. No need to go more than 14. Don't burn yourself out, you've done too much good work.


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    #517
    blockic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭blockic


    RunForestRun wrote: »
    I reckon 16 MP is too much, to be honest. No need to go more than 14. Don't burn yourself out, you've done too much good work.

    Big +1 here


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    #518
    yaboya1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    RunForestRun wrote: »
    I reckon 16 MP is too much, to be honest. No need to go more than 14. Don't burn yourself out, you've done too much good work.
    blockic wrote: »
    Big +1 here

    Ok. Cheers for the advice. Leave it at 18 (with 14) then, or go 20 (with 14)?


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    #519
    KielyUnusual
    Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭KielyUnusual


    To steal a phrase from the enigma that is Stazza, its all about context. Its hard to say whether a 16 mile PMP run would be too much or just about right. You have to look at it in the context of the training you're doing. I know KC would have dun 3 X 15 mile PMP runs during a marathon schedule but he is doing 100 miles so has the training around it to support it. In general, I would say that you would want to be running high mileage for a long while to justify a session like that. Do you have a plan for the remaining weeks before DCM that we could look at?


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    #520
    yaboya1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    KielyUnusual wrote: »
    To steal a phrase from the enigma that is Stazza, its all about context. Its hard to say whether a 16 mile PMP run would be too much or just about right. You have to look at it in the context of the training you're doing. I know KC would have dun 3 X 15 mile PMP runs during a marathon schedule but he is doing 100 miles so has the training around it to support it. In general, I would say that you would want to be running high mileage for a long while to justify a session like that. Do you have a plan for the remaining weeks before DCM that we could look at?

    Although I am running the DCM, it's Berlin up first. I've jumped into the final 8 weeks of the P&D 55-70 plan after doing plenty of aerobic running beforehand. I've adjusted slightly to suit my schedule (running Longford HM this Sunday).

    Plan


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    #521
    KielyUnusual
    Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭KielyUnusual


    yaboya1 wrote: »
    Although I am running the DCM, it's Berlin up first. I've jumped into the final 8 weeks of the P&D 55-70 plan after doing plenty of aerobic running beforehand. I've adjusted slightly to suit my schedule (running Longford HM this Sunday).

    Plan

    Looks like you have good rest before and after the MP run, which is good. It's a bit strange that this is pretty much your only MP run in the last week outside of the small one towards the end but I guess each plan is different. Its seen you well so far anyway.

    I'd have a few suggestions but at this stage I'll keep them to myself. The last thing you want is people coming in with a million different ideas if you're working off a structured plan and as a whole I think the plan looks really good anyway.


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    #522
    yaboya1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    KielyUnusual wrote: »
    I'd have a few suggestions but at this stage I'll keep them to myself.

    Be sure to share them after the marathon ;)


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    #523
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,507 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    KielyUnusual wrote: »
    To steal a phrase from the enigma that is Stazza, its all about context. Its hard to say whether a 16 mile PMP run would be too much or just about right. You have to look at it in the context of the training you're doing. I know KC would have dun 3 X 15 mile PMP runs during a marathon schedule but he is doing 100 miles so has the training around it to support it. In general, I would say that you would want to be running high mileage for a long while to justify a session like that. Do you have a plan for the remaining weeks before DCM that we could look at?
    To be fair, the plan I have followed for the last 2-3 cycles has 2 x 15 mile marathon pace sessions. Typically, I don't hit the numbers the first time around (probably pmp + 3%-5%), but typically hit it for the second pmp cycle, which is later in the schedule (I do it as my final big workout, on a terrain similar to the race profile). I reckon that if you can run 15@ PMP as part of 19 mile training run (2 miles warm-up/cool down) then with just a bit of luck, you're a shoe-in for your target. If there is also a Kilomarathon during the build-up to the race, I'd consider running it as a pmp session, but that's because it's a well-supported event and running a session like this in a race environment (with water, sports drinks and other runners) is a damn site easier than doing it on your own (so closer to a 15 mile solo pmp session).
    yaboya wrote:
    Although I am running the DCM, it's Berlin up first. I've jumped into the final 8 weeks of the P&D 55-70 plan after doing plenty of aerobic running beforehand. I've adjusted slightly to suit my schedule (running Longford HM this Sunday).
    I don't think it really matters whether the session is 17 miles or 19 miles, as long as you're suitably warmed-up, and suitably cool-down afterwards. The important bit, is the bit in the middle! 14 miles? 15 miles? 16 miles? Doesn't really matter either... Only a handful of minutes either side. The important thing is not to overdo it, so it's good to have an arbitrary line and mine is 15 miles. I'd question the wisdom of jumping into the final 8 weeks of a marathon plan (after doing aerobic running), but hopefully you're up to the challenge of the quality workouts at that stage in the plan. See you in Longford on Sunday.

    <sorry for the aside RFR>


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    #524
    jfh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭jfh


    rfr just getting back to following you again, i was going for a similar goal to yourself & find myself nodding in agreement with both kiely & krusty.

    i was following Daniels & managed 14miles @ 6:15, which is what you'll be doing?
    that run was manageable, you have a few years running in the bank so i'd say you should be aiming for that too?
    it would be very encouraging to do it solo.

    saying that, it's a fine balance, tried the 15 MP and it took too much out of me.( i was carrying an old injury & had very physical day the day before)
    so i'd treat it as a race & rest up beforehand.


    the athlone 3/4 would be a good race to do the 14MP.


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    #525
    dublin runner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭dublin runner


    RunForestRun wrote: »
    I reckon 16 MP is too much, to be honest. No need to go more than 14. Don't burn yourself out, you've done too much good work.

    Agree with this. Maybe have a look for a HM and run it at MP. Great way of simulating marathon race day (water stations, closed roads, race day nerves (!) etc). Might not be a race that suits but it's worth a look.


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    #526
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,507 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    dublin runner wrote: »
    Agree with this. Maybe have a look for a HM and run it at MP. Great way of simulating marathon race day (water stations, closed roads, race day nerves (!) etc). Might not be a race that suits but it's worth a look.
    That's exactly what I'm doing this weekend, but I do have a slight issue with it. It's too damn easy. All it tells you is that you're good for half the distance anyway or that you can run a sub-standard half marathon. That's why I reckon there's value in going a little bit further and doing it solo.

    Having said all that, I'l be well happy if I can achieve the above this weekend in Longford. I feel I'm a little below target so I need the added 'ease' of the race environment.


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    #527
    dublin runner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭dublin runner


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    That's exactly what I'm doing this weekend, but I do have a slight issue with it. It's too damn easy. All it tells you is that you're good for half the distance anyway or that you can run a sub-standard half marathon. That's why I reckon there's value in going a little bit further and doing it solo.

    Having said all that, I'l be well happy if I can achieve the above this weekend in Longford. I feel I'm a little below target so I need the added 'ease' of the race environment.

    Sorry for hijacking your log!

    That's a fair point. If Yaboya (for example!), headed into the race without a taper and did a few warm-up miles beforehand, I reckon it would serve a great purpose. On the other hand, if he eased up and rested for it it would be fairly pointless alright. I would personally like to use a HM/Kilomarathon as prep but each to their own :) I'm not racing on Sunday but I am running so might see someone for few w/u or w/d miles.


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    #528
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,507 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    dublin runner wrote: »
    Sorry for hijacking your log!

    That's a fair point. If Yaboya (for example!), headed into the race without a taper and did a few warm-up miles beforehand, I reckon it would serve a great purpose. On the other hand, if he eased up and rested for it it would be fairly pointless alright. I would personally like to use a HM/Kilomarathon as prep but each to their own :) I'm not racing on Sunday but I am running so might see someone for few w/u or w/d miles.
    Well, I'll be going for 5:50's all the way, so if that suits, some company would be great. Otherwise, will look out for you for some warm-up 'n' down.

    <sorry again RFR>


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    #529
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Just catching up on all the posts here, got to say I'm entirely with KC on my feelings about running a HM at goal MP, it's too easy. Typically, the toughest long run I do would be 1 mile wu, 5 at mp+30/40 seconds, 13/14 at mp +-10 seconds, 1 cool down. Mentally and physically it's tough, but not tough enough to do damage.

    I also generally do a half at close to full effort but with no taper about 5-6 weeks out from marathon. I've never suffered I'll affects from the like.

    Jfh, I'm not overly hung up on my exact mp at the moment to the second, but taking 6:20 ish as the rough guide. I peaked a bit early last year, so will wait til mid sept to really fine tune.


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    #530
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Fri 22nd: Rest

    This was unplanned. Was about to get myself out the door, and a friend rang to say he'd be dropping in, they didn't get away til 11:30.

    Sat 23rd: 7.5 miles at 7:23 pace

    Out first thing in the morning for this run around Ballymakenny and Sandpit. Wanted to keep it relatively easy, as I was planning a long MP run Sunday. Weather definitely starting to change a bit, getting much cooler.

    Sunday 24th am: 15.75 miles in 1:50 (7:00 avg pace) with 10 MP miles

    Decided not to do 20 mile long run this weekend, but to do the first long run with sustained MP miles. Conditions seemed very windy up on the hill here, figured I might be fighting a headwind for a good bit of this, but couldn't think of any better route. Too many bloody hills up this way. I was doing this one on total empty also, so was prepared for a bit of a battle. Got going, doing an easy mile before dropping down to MP easily for the first few miles into Drogheda. Had a tailwind and gravity helping me here, so the pace was very easy for the first 4 MP miles.

    As I turned down at the docks to run out the Baltray road, I felt the full force of the wind into my face, knew it was going to be very tough to hit the required pace the whole way, but got stuck in. Had to up the effort levels about two miles sooner than I normally would on this route, and the pace dropped down to 6:30 for a couple of miles. Won't get too hung up on that, the wind really was a killer, so feel confident that on a calmer day, I'd have nailed the 10 miles. Took it very, very easy on the way back up the hill from Termonfeckin. I was spent after it, but happy to have (nearly) done what I'd planned.
    MP miles: 6:15, 6:18, 6:18, 6:18, 6:20, 6:29, 6:22, 6:17, 6:28, 6:30

    Sunday pm: 4 miles at 7:41 pace

    Headed out in the evening time for a handy 4 miles, the legs feeling grand after the effort earlier on in the day. Think that might be close to 70 miles for the week, longest mileage in quite a while. With any luck, I'll do something similar this week before heading back to school next week.


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    #531
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Mon 25th Aug: 5 miles in 38 mins

    Tues 26th Aug: 5 miles in 38 mins

    Nothing exciting, just a couple of easy runs on the treadmill. Brutal weather. Bit of a headcold. I was going to do a local half marathon today for charity, but Mrs RFR said it started at 10 on the far side of Drogheda, and I couldn't be bothered. Might get out for a few more miles later on.


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    #532
    blockic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭blockic


    RunForestRun wrote: »
    and I couldn't be bothered.

    My kind of running at the moment! :pac:


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    #533
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Tues 26th pm: 6 miles in 41 mins

    Progressive tempo run, starting at 8 min mile pace, speeding up to 6:00 pace by the end. Slowing down to MP at the end felt nice.


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    #534
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Wednesday 27th Aug: 10 miles tempo in 65 mins

    Happened to be up in Dublin yesterday, in Knocklyon area. After a very nice, sunny afternoon, the weather changed badly just as I was getting myself organised to head out on the road. Considered running up the mountain towards Kilshee, but I know that road is a bit dangerous when its wet especially, so just kept to the main roads, out towards Tallaght. Fought the whole way against rain and wind. The first few miles weren't too bad, but after I turned back for home, I was absolutely battered with what felt like near gale-force wind straight into my face. Kept the pace in the 6:18-6:30 range for the 9 tempo miles. Was wrecked after it, but felt good.

    Thurs 28th Aug: 4 miles at 7:37 pace

    Feeling fairly sore after yesterday's run. My shoulders especially are really aching, feel like I cut a bank of turf. Decided to just do an easy paced 4 miles this evening. Still howling winds out there, so even this wasn't much fun.


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    #535
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Fri 29th Aug: Rest

    Sat 30th Aug: 7.5 miles in 7:37 pace and 4 miles in 7:45 pace

    Out early in the morning for the first run. On Friday, I'd still felt a bit sore, but was grand for this one. Took it nice and handy on what was a much nicer morning than of late. Got on the treadmill later on for another easy run.

    Hopefully 18-20 miles at some point today, with a few MP miles.


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    #536
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Sun 31st Aug: 20 miles in 2:29 (7:27 pace)

    I was absolutely wrecked heading out on this run. I spent about an hour in the swimming pool with the kids this morning, before heading off for this run. I was starving hungry, tired legs, totally out of energy. I knew that even getting around the 20 miles would be a struggle, never mind trying to inject any pace into it. Ran from Drogheda, out the Boyne estuary towards Baltray, Termonfeckin, on ahead to Clogherhead, then back through Grangebellew and Ballymakenny. Was really suffering the last couple of miles up the hill.

    There was nothing flashy, fast or even remotely enjoyable about this run to be honest. However, I'm very happy with it, and know that in a way, these sort of grinding slogs are excellent for conditioning.


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    #537
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Another decent month's work. Couple of very good long runs, getting the MP segments in now. Also, a good couple of speed sessions, and one race that while neither bad nor good, was enough of a kick in the arse for me to get a bit more bite into my training. Managed to up the mileage a bit more by adding a few doubles.

    Month|Runs|Av Speed|Mileage
    January|19/31|8.7|109
    February|19/28|8.2|104
    March|21/31|8.5|148
    April|20/30|8.5|157
    May|15/31|8.4|101
    June|26/30|8.3|160
    July|28/31|8.2|221
    August|26/31|8.4|251


    Year to date: 1,251

    I'm back to school tomorrow after the summer holidays, so there's a fair chance mileage will fall back a bit, but I'd hope to keep it in the 50-60 mpw range for September. I'll probably run home from school a couple of days a week, will try to get to the track on Wednesdays, and keep the all-important long runs going at the weekends. It was at this point last year that I started struggling to maintain fitness. This year definitely will not be so busy, so should be able to improve fitness and hit peak shape by mid October.


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    #538
    Calvin Johnson
    Registered Users Posts: 572 ✭✭✭Calvin Johnson


    I had exactly the same kind of run this morning, although quite a bit slower.


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    #539
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Mon 1st September: 9 miles at 7:27 pace

    First day back at school, and got the runners on for the run home. Took the scenic route home, running the whole way out the Boyne Ramparts as far as Oldbridge. I've got to say they've done a hell of a job of the walkway and path. I'm not the biggest fan of running on gravel paths, but I really enjoyed these few miles along the river. Then, at Oldbridge, I swung back out onto the Slane Rd, back into Drogheda, and out to Monasterboice. I'll not get running home every day, as it just won't suit with kids stuff, but hopefully, I'll manage 3-4 days a week.


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    #540
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Tues 2nd sept: off

    Weds 3rd Sept: 12.5 miles at 6:5x avg pace with 12x400 session.

    Ran into the track in drogheda for this, after the first warmup mile, I averaged about 6:35 pace into town. The lads were about ready to start when I arrived so jumped into the 400s. Did these at 76-81 seconds apiece, speeding up on the last couple, just not quite as much as the track fairies.

    Felt ok when I headed for home, but by the time I was a couple of miles out the road was fairly wrecked, out of energy totally. Happy enough with the session,


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    #541
    pconn062
    Registered Users Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    RunForestRun wrote: »
    Tues 2nd sept: off

    Weds 3rd Sept: 12.5 miles at 6:5x avg pace with 12x400 session.

    Ran into the track in drogheda for this, after the first warmup mile, I averaged about 6:35 pace into town. The lads were about ready to start when I arrived so jumped into the 400s. Did these at 76-81 seconds apiece, speeding up on the last couple, just not quite as much as the track fairies.

    Felt ok when I headed for home, but by the time I was a couple of miles out the road was fairly wrecked, out of energy totally. Happy enough with the session,

    What you mean here is you weren't able to speed up as much as the track fairies. ;)


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