School patronage

lazygal · 23-11-2015 4:47pm

Cabaal wrote: »

I know, but I just wanted to give an example of how somebody can opt out of what the vast majority of people in Ireland would see as a "core" subject.

My point being if you can opt out of Irish you can sure as hell opt a child out of religion if you see fit,

Rule 68 for primary schools is that religious instruction is the most important subject. Yet all parents can opt out and it's not inspected and teachers aren't paid for indoctrination. An utterly nonsensical and pointless set up all around.

expectationlost · 23-11-2015 4:49pm

lazygal wrote: »

No, the law is a minimum standard of education. Mainly required subjects are because of third level course requirements, especially after fifth year. Parents are the primary educators in Ireland.

and what is that minimun standard? ETA is there a test?

lazygal · 23-11-2015 4:51pm

expectationlost wrote: »

and what is that minimun standard?

Haven't a clue. You'd need to check with the relevant bodies.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 23-11-2015 4:59pm

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Discussion of atheism and agnosticism appears to be for higher level only as well... :rolleyes:

Hilarious!

Fred Swanson · 23-11-2015 5:07pm

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expectationlost · 23-11-2015 5:35pm

lazygal wrote: »

Haven't a clue. You'd need to check with the relevant bodies.

not convinced by you

expectationlost · 23-11-2015 9:29pm

Limerick school to allow student opt-out of religion http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1123/748507-schools-religion/

The student will not be required to study religion, but she will have to remain in the classroom while the subject is being taught

*shrug*

Fred Swanson · 23-11-2015 9:32pm

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expectationlost · 23-11-2015 9:51pm

Martin Mansergh: It would be rash to kill denominational schooling http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/martin-mansergh-it-would-be-rash-to-kill-denominational-schooling-1.2436793

could also lead to the rapid takeover of most Protestant-run national schools, particularly in urban areas, something seldom referred to in any of the public argument.

ever the imagined persecution, its not about yous Proddys

RainyDay · 23-11-2015 10:39pm

expectationlost wrote: »

Limerick school to allow student opt-out of religion http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1123/748507-schools-religion/

*shrug*

All ETB schools are obliged to teach religion. This was a stipulation that the Catholic church made to the State during the development of the then-VEC school system. ETB schools can opt to teach religion as an exam subject if they wish.

WTF? Do the ETBs still have an agreement with the Catholic Church? What is the format of these agreements - legislation or just a letter or what?

expectationlost · 23-11-2015 10:59pm

RainyDay wrote: »

WTF? Do the ETBs still have an agreement with the Catholic Church? What is the format of these agreements - legislation or just a letter or what?

earlier statement from ETB/Castletroy College http://www.etbi.ie/statement-from-general-secretary-re-castletroy-college-limerick/

A Designated Community College is an ETB school where the management of the school is governed by a specific agreement between the ETB and a ‘Trustee Partner’ – the local diocese and/or a religious congregation or other recognised school patron. The Model Agreement refers to the agreement between the ETB and the ‘Trustee Partner’ – an agreement that as well as giving the ‘Trustee Partner’ a role in the management of the school gives the ‘Trustee Partner’ a role in determining the school’s characteristic spirit. While Model Agreement (Designated) Colleges involve a ‘trustee partner’ the ETB is the patron.

some etb schools are co-patrons with the church

model agreement http://www.asti.ie/operation-of-schools/management-of-schools/deeds-of-trust-for-community-schools-and-community-colleges/

http://limerickclare.etb.ie/school/castletroy-college-castletroy/ http://www.castletroycollege.ie/

RainyDay · 23-11-2015 11:37pm

expectationlost wrote: »

earlier statement from ETB/Castletroy College http://www.etbi.ie/statement-from-general-secretary-re-castletroy-college-limerick/

some etb schools are co-patrons with the church

model agreement http://www.asti.ie/operation-of-schools/management-of-schools/deeds-of-trust-for-community-schools-and-community-colleges/

http://limerickclare.etb.ie/school/castletroy-college-castletroy/ http://www.castletroycollege.ie/

Well, thanks for answering the 'What' in the WTF. So now I move on to Why

Why on earth would a non-demoninational body like an ETB give control of an asset like a college to a religious body?

expectationlost · 23-11-2015 11:44pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Well, thanks for answering the 'What' in the WTF. So now I move on to Why

Why on earth would a non-demoninational body like an ETB give control of an asset like a college to a religious body?

i dunno, its a relatively new school built in 2000... because members of our secular establishment don't want any children not to be thought religion

Hotblack Desiato · 24-11-2015 2:36am

All ETB schools are obliged to teach religion. This was a stipulation that the Catholic church made to the State during the development of the then-VEC school system.

I'd love to know who thought that the RCC could make stipulations to the State about State schools built on State land with State money.

Absolam · 24-11-2015 2:54am

lazygal wrote: »

Parents are allowed opt their children out of any subject. As they are the primary educators, after all. I suspect a lot of schools are worried about a raft of opting out if parents insist that their children opt out of any subject, religion or anything else.

I suspect it would be difficult to convince the DoE/school that maths is contrary to your conscience though.

lazygal wrote: »

No, the law is a minimum standard of education. Mainly required subjects are because of third level course requirements, especially after fifth year. Parents are the primary educators in Ireland.

expectationlost wrote: »

and what is that minimun standard? ETA is there a test?

Actually the law (Education (Welfare) Act, 2000 "An Act To Provide For The Entitlement Of Every Child In The State To A Certain Minimum Education) requires that children receive a certain minimum education, not a certain minimum standard of education. The Minister may prescribe minimum standards of education for those educated outside the recognised school system. Unfortunately the guidelines for what a certain mininum education is don't seem to me to provide a lot of certainty;

A child’s education should:
Be suited to the age, ability, aptitude and personality of the child
Be responsive to the child’s individual needs, should take cognisance of the areas of learning that are of interest to the child, and should ensure that his/her personal potential is enhanced and not suppressed
Address the immediate and prospective needs of the child, in the context of the cultural, economic and social environment
Provide a reasonably balanced range of learning experiences, so that no one aspect of the child’s learning is emphasised to the exclusion of others
Develop the personal and social skills of the child and prepare him/her for the responsibilities of citizenship
Contribute to the moral development of the child
Provide opportunities for the child to develop his/her intellectual capacities and understanding
The guidelines also require that basic skills, without which a child would be placed at a serious disadvantage, should be taken into account in a definition of this minimum education. Development and progression in oral language, literacy and numeracy are vital for other areas of learning and for the child to participate in society and everyday life.

Even with such wishy washy requirements, I'd think opting out of English and Maths would not contribute to to vital development and progression in literacy and numeracy.

RainyDay · 24-11-2015 8:53am

expectationlost wrote: »

i dunno, its a relatively new school built in 2000... because members of our secular establishment don't want any children not to be thought religion

Yes, I can see what's in it for the RCC. But what's in it for the ETB?

Peregrinus · 24-11-2015 9:31am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'd love to know who thought that the RCC could make stipulations to the State about State schools built on State land with State money.

RainyDay wrote: »

Yes, I can see what's in it for the RCC. But what's in it for the ETB?

Castletroy is a designated community college, meaning that it's under ETB patronage, but it's governed in accordance with an agreement with a trustee partner, which in this case is the Diocese of Limerick.

The DCC model was developed in the late '70s, and represents what looks like a hybrid between the old VEC school and the community college. I don't know how Castletroy came to be established under the DCC model, but the usual story is that a DCC school has replaced or amalgamated a number of predecessor schools, at least one of which was a VEC/ETB school, and at least one of which was under a non-VEC/ETB patron. Reading between the lines, the model was developed to assist in securing community buy-in to new schools. In other words, Castletroy is a DCC, basically, because the judgment of the Dept of Ed at the time was that parents wanted a school with religious involvement in its management.

The trustee partner is not always a religious body. Kishoge Community College is a DCC under ETB patronage, with Educate Together as the trustee partner.

Bristolscale7 · 24-11-2015 9:40am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'd love to know who thought that the RCC could make stipulations to the State about State schools built on State land with State money.

Papists in the Department of Education.

PopePalpatine · 24-11-2015 10:15am

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Papists in the Department of Education.

I think it's mentioned in this forum before that the DoE is the most conservative government department of them all.

iguana · 24-11-2015 11:42am

expectationlost wrote: »

and what is that minimun standard? ETA is there a test?

My son is just 3 so I'm not sure of all the exact details here as it doesn't specifically involve me at the moment but I am involved with a number of home education groups as it's a route we are considering. Afaik, at the moment the process of how this standard is investigated is under consultation as the body with responsibility for it changes from the NEWB (National Educational Welfare Board) to Tusla. So how it works will possibly change over the next few years.

But at present parents must register their child for some form of education when they are 6. Either in school or register as home educators. Then a Tusla inspector arranges to come meet the parents and they discuss the parents' plans. If the parent plans to follow a curriculum that's straightforward enough. But it's increasingly common for parents to 'unschool' which means to let the child take the lead. For example if a 7 year old develops a big interest in medieval knights the parents will allow the child to focus on learning about them whenever they want rather than interrupt the child's focus to make them do an hour of maths. Instead the parent might use the child's interest in knights to tell them about Roman Numerals and use that as a way to whet the child's interest in maths. And a lot of play is used for learning.

If this is how a parent plans to guide their child's learning they will need to articulate this to the assessor. At this point the assessor has no right to meet the child (as the child is not on the HE register yet) but the parents may allow it. After this there will probably be meetings once a year where the assessor meets the child with the parents present and the assessor can look through examples of the child's work and ascertain if the minimum standard is being met. There are no tests, no subject is required but it would be assumed that a developmentally normative child should be progressing towards full literacy and understands the basics of mathmatics, etc. When the child gets older the assessor will discus the child's ambitions for further education and how the parent plans to facilitate that if the child wants to go to third level.

Shrap · 24-11-2015 12:19pm

Cabaal wrote: »

You can opt out of Irish!
I know, cause I did.

Opted out and took up Art instead which was far better benefit to me and I could do honours and get the point towards LC. Not doing Irish was never a negative to me.

So if a person can opt out of Irish then they sure as hell can opt out of religion,

Feck, you were lucky! I'm having so much difficulty opting my youngest out of Irish, which he has significant problems with (among other subjects). Having no Irish being the very least of my concerns about him, but he still needs assessing by an educational psychologist registered with the dept. of ed. through the school in order to get an exemption. Luckily we have a new psych who is open to the idea (the school always has been), so fingers crossed!

expectationlost · 24-11-2015 9:00pm

iguana wrote: »

My son is just 3 so I'm not sure of all the exact details here as it doesn't specifically involve me at the moment but I am involved with a number of home education groups as it's a route we are considering. Afaik, at the moment the process of how this standard is investigated is under consultation as the body with responsibility for it changes from the NEWB (National Educational Welfare Board) to Tusla. So how it works will possibly change over the next few years.

But at present parents must register their child for some form of education when they are 6. Either in school or register as home educators. Then a Tusla inspector arranges to come meet the parents and they discuss the parents' plans. If the parent plans to follow a curriculum that's straightforward enough. But it's increasingly common for parents to 'unschool' which means to let the child take the lead. For example if a 7 year old develops a big interest in medieval knights the parents will allow the child to focus on learning about them whenever they want rather than interrupt the child's focus to make them do an hour of maths. Instead the parent might use the child's interest in knights to tell them about Roman Numerals and use that as a way to whet the child's interest in maths. And a lot of play is used for learning.

If this is how a parent plans to guide their child's learning they will need to articulate this to the assessor. At this point the assessor has no right to meet the child (as the child is not on the HE register yet) but the parents may allow it. After this there will probably be meetings once a year where the assessor meets the child with the parents present and the assessor can look through examples of the child's work and ascertain if the minimum standard is being met. There are no tests, no subject is required but it would be assumed that a developmentally normative child should be progressing towards full literacy and understands the basics of mathmatics, etc. When the child gets older the assessor will discus the child's ambitions for further education and how the parent plans to facilitate that if the child wants to go to third level.

thats interesting, we don't have any compulsory national tests in primary (although I do remember doing some sort of test to assess it generally) but we're talking juniorcert

byhookorbycrook · 24-11-2015 9:06pm

You can't "opt out" of Irish, you have to meet specific criteria. Standardised tests are now compulsory in primary.

lazygal · 24-11-2015 9:40pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

You can't "opt out" of Irish, you have to meet specific criteria. Standardised tests are now compulsory in primary.

You can if it conflicts with your family's beliefs-says so right there in section 30. I know teachers of Irish get squiffy about parents firing in letters from psychologists telling the school their children won't be doing Irish because its a complete waste of time detrimental to their well being overall in other subjects, but parents are the primary educators of their children.
Anyway, if children are allowed to opt out of the single most important subject taught in primary schools, what's stopping parents opting them out of other less important subjects?

ETA-Once children turn 18 they can decide for themselves, as they're adults.

byhookorbycrook · 24-11-2015 9:49pm

lazygal wrote: »

You can if it conflicts with your family's beliefs-says so right there in section 30. I know teachers of Irish get squiffy about parents firing in letters from psychologists telling the school their children won't be doing Irish because its a complete waste of time detrimental to their well being overall in other subjects, but parents are the primary educators of their children.
Anyway, if children are allowed to opt out of the single most important subject taught in primary schools, what's stopping parents opting them out of other less important subjects?

ETA-Once children turn 18 they can decide for themselves, as they're adults.

You have to fit quite specific criteria in an educational psychol report to be exempted. I'm not familiar with how Irish can officially conflict with a family belief, can you elaborate??

lazygal · 24-11-2015 10:07pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

You have to fit quite specific criteria in an educational psychol report to be exempted. I'm not familiar with how Irish can officially conflict with a family belief, can you elaborate??

Well, would a parent need to explain the conflict? It could be argued that asking parents to explain why their children are opting out of any subject would violate their right to privacy-no one has to reveal their religious affiliations after all. And anyway, would schools then be the arbiter of how 'valid' a family's beliefs were and only grant such legal rights to opt out of subjects if they consider it a 'real' rather than a 'makey uppy' belief?

The law says parents have the right to opt out on the grounds of a subject conflicting with a belief. I can't see anywhere stated that the belief and its conflict with subjects taught in schools needs to be considered valid by the school. How would your school deal with a family opting out of a subject on the grounds of belief? Would the parents need to write out exactly how the conflict arose or would the school demand 'proof' of the conflict?

As I said, if you can opt of the most important subject, why not the other less important ones?

expectationlost · 24-11-2015 10:17pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Yes, I can see what's in it for the RCC. But what's in it for the ETB?

co-operation from the 'pillars of the community'

Cabaal · 24-11-2015 10:46pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

You can't "opt out" of Irish, you have to meet specific criteria. Standardised tests are now compulsory in primary.

And yet I did in secondary school,

lazygal · 24-11-2015 10:49pm

Cabaal wrote: »

And yet I did in secondary school,

As did my husband, many moons ago. Spent the time on useful things like maths and poking fun at people who had to do Irish.

Fred Swanson · 24-11-2015 10:49pm

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School patronage

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