Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

marienbad · 11-05-2015 11:27pm

katydid wrote: »

Health is definitely on the move. Education will take longer.

You seriously think that ANYONE takes notice of the people you list? Do you actually live in Ireland?

If you don't know the power of these people then I would question if you do .

They don't care what 'anyone' thinks ,just those who matter .

katydid · 11-05-2015 11:31pm

marienbad wrote: »

If you don't know the power of these people then I would question if you do .

They don't care what 'anyone' thinks ,just those who matter .

So tell me what "power" they have. Apart from health, which is changing rapidly and education, which is still there because of the laziness of parents, what power does religion, and specifically the RCC have in Ireland in 2105?

marienbad · 11-05-2015 11:44pm

katydid wrote: »

So tell me what "power" they have. Apart from health, which is changing rapidly and education, which is still there because of the laziness of parents, what power does religion, and specifically the RCC have in Ireland in 2105?

When you have health and education what more do you need ?

Where do you get the notion that Health is changing rapidly ? We just had to have another civil war to pass a piece of legislation that in effect is unfit for purpose . But the fallout ensured that no government will revisit the Constitution for at least another decade . And that was always the goal .

And if the referendum is defeated Friday week wait until you see the spate of challenges to the recent legislation on surrogacy etc.

And I don't know how you blame parents for the slow pace of change in education ? Ruari Quinn had a mandate for change in patronage but as usual the snail's pace used in dialogue by the RCC saw off another Minister. The more things change ...

katydid · 11-05-2015 11:50pm

marienbad wrote: »

When you have health and education what more do you need ?

Where do you get the notion that Health is changing rapidly ? We just had to have another civil war to pass a piece of legislation that in effect is unfit for purpose . But the fallout ensured that no government will revisit the Constitution for at least another decade . And that was always the goal .

And if the referendum is defeated Friday week wait until you see the spate of challenges to the recent legislation on surrogacy etc.

And I don't know how you blame parents for the slow pace of change in education ? Ruari Quinn had a mandate for change in patronage but as usual the snail's pace used in dialogue by the RCC saw off another Minister. The more things change ...

So you can't name any other part of society where the church has a strong influence. Yep, thought as much.

The fact that legislation is engaging in dealing with the problems caused by the influence of religion shows that it's changing.

The referendum has nothing to do with religion. There are religious and non religious on both sides. Whether it succeeds or falls will be much more complicated than religion.

I blame parents for the slow change in education; they don't want things to change, because it would mean they would have to put themselves out to provide religious education themselves. There may have been delays in talks, but the bottom line was that there was and still is no political impetus.The RCC didn't "see off" Quinn, his stepping out of the department had nothing to do with the patronage issue.

tommy2bad · 11-05-2015 11:53pm

katydid wrote: »

So tell me what "power" they have. Apart from health, which is changing rapidly and education, which is still there because of the laziness of parents, what power does religion, and specifically the RCC have in Ireland in 2105?

Oh I wouldn't dismiss the power of the rcc just yet, it's a deeply ingrained instruction. It's on the receiving end of a backlash at the moment but it's not going away you know.

I expect Ireland will remain culturally Catholic for sometime, though it will only be token Catholicism. Education and health will become secular but bishops will still get an invite to openings and tree plantings. Bit like the monarch in the UK.

marienbad · 12-05-2015 12:21am

katydid wrote: »

So you can't name any other part of society where the church has a strong influence. Yep, thought as much.

The fact that legislation is engaging in dealing with the problems caused by the influence of religion shows that it's changing.

The referendum has nothing to do with religion. There are religious and non religious on both sides. Whether it succeeds or falls will be much more complicated than religion.

I blame parents for the slow change in education; they don't want things to change, because it would mean they would have to put themselves out to provide religious education themselves. There may have been delays in talks, but the bottom line was that there was and still is no political impetus.The RCC didn't "see off" Quinn, his stepping out of the department had nothing to do with the patronage issue.

This is a typical Kathy reply - the RCC has a huge influence on two of the biggest spending departments in the Irish budget and all you can say is ''yep thought as much ''

95% of the opposition is coming from RCC inspired groups .

Delirium · 12-05-2015 8:41am

marienbad wrote: »

This is a typical Kathy reply - the RCC has a huge influence on two of the biggest spending departments in the Irish budget and all you can say is ''yep thought as much ''

95% of the opposition is coming from RCC inspired groups .

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katydid · 12-05-2015 8:49am

marienbad wrote: »

This is a typical Kathy reply - the RCC has a huge influence on two of the biggest spending departments in the Irish budget and all you can say is ''yep thought as much ''

95% of the opposition is coming from RCC inspired groups .

It was very simple: I asked you what areas, OTHER THAN Health and Education, do these religious "heavy hitters" have influence over and you didn't reply. Because you don't have an answer.

95% of what opposition?

indioblack · 12-05-2015 11:23am

ScumLord wrote: »

You can't prove god doesn't exist, that's true. If he doesn't exist then there's no evidence to use as prove. But religions always say god influences the world and if that's true there should be a way of measuring that influence, we've measured so much of the universe and have plotted out natural phenomena so if there is another force of nature out there it should become apparent because things will happen without a natural explanation.

Even if we say, we can't prove god does exist because he's too good at hiding from us. What we can do is show that Christianity is as unlikely to have the correct answers or any element of truth when it comes to links to the creator of the universe as any other religion. The bible is a book written by ancient peoples, what makes them a dependable source? We know ancient peoples would attribute rain to spirits out to punish a person for something they did. Why are they such a dependable source on the origins of life and the universe? Why should anyone believe the bible? And it's not up to the non believers to try and prove it's nonsense, it's up to the people promoting the idea to prove it's not.

If you truly believe in a god the creator of the universe then the only way to understand that god is through science. Science is the study of the natural world and the natural world is the only actual evidence left behind by god. The only way you can even begin to comprehend the creation of the universe is through science, the very thing religious institutions attack on a regular basis.

Science has also rewarded humanity with longer lifespans, better health, easier lifes, pain relief. If god exists and wants to talk to us, the path is clear by its rewards.

I agree with this post. If god exists, he is to be found in his creation - all of it.
If this includes the unpleasant, brutish and occasionally ghastly parts of existence - them so be it.
The beneficial side of life can therefore be acknowledged as coming from god.

The negative facts of existence, and their origin, must, in reason, be acknowledged similarly.

marienbad · 12-05-2015 11:29am

katydid wrote: »

It was very simple: I asked you what areas, OTHER THAN Health and Education, do these religious "heavy hitters" have influence over and you didn't reply. Because you don't have an answer.

95% of what opposition?

your question is irrelevant , it is like asking a manufacturing manager that doesn't control the source of supply and the quality process what could possibly go wrong .

What opposition do you think ?

ScumLord · 12-05-2015 11:37am

katydid wrote: »

So you can't name any other part of society where the church has a strong influence. Yep, thought as much.

I can, local parish councils up and down the country. They have their fingers in all the pies, they've managed to get themselves in front of any money the government gives out through grants so that they can control what happens in the towns around the country. They can essentially block any support for projects they don't agree with, they divert money into projects they think should be promoted and create a cartel that enforces Catholic agendas.

The Catholic church is entrenched in this country, it actively tries to push agendas and control peoples decisions. It's not just a top down policy, Catholics get into boards and link up with the local priest and parish council to ensure any dissidents don't get there hands of any public services like town halls and grants.

katydid · 12-05-2015 5:17pm

ScumLord wrote: »

I can, local parish councils up and down the country. They have their fingers in all the pies, they've managed to get themselves in front of any money the government gives out through grants so that they can control what happens in the towns around the country. They can essentially block any support for projects they don't agree with, they divert money into projects they think should be promoted and create a cartel that enforces Catholic agendas.

The Catholic church is entrenched in this country, it actively tries to push agendas and control peoples decisions. It's not just a top down policy, Catholics get into boards and link up with the local priest and parish council to ensure any dissidents don't get there hands of any public services like town halls and grants.

Parish councils? You must be joking, right? What influence do parish councils have?

I have been a member of my church's Select Vestry (Parish Council of the CofI) for years now, and I can assure you that no parish council, of any Christian denomination, is in any position to block any projects or to enforce anything. It is the management committee of the church. That's what it does. Fundraises, organises events, maintains the building. All that boring stuff. It has no more influence than the committee of the GAA club or a Residents Committee.

You seem a tad paranoid.

katydid · 12-05-2015 5:19pm

marienbad wrote: »

your question is irrelevant , it is like asking a manufacturing manager that doesn't control the source of supply and the quality process what could possibly go wrong .

What opposition do you think ?

I'm asking YOU. You seem remarkably reluctant to be specific.

ScumLord · 12-05-2015 5:27pm

katydid wrote: »

Parish councils? You must be joking, right? What influence do parish councils have?

I have been a member of my church's Select Vestry (Parish Council of the CofI) for years now, and I can assure you that no parish council, of any Christian denomination, is in any position to block any projects or to enforce anything. It is the management committee of the church. That's what it does. Fundraises, organises events, maintains the building. All that boring stuff. It has no more influence than the committee of the GAA club or a Residents Committee.

You seem a tad paranoid.

No, I've gone up against them. They like to get themselves onto every committee in the town and trying to get them to give up power is pretty difficult. Many of the public schemes in towns have been run through the parish councils.

katydid · 12-05-2015 5:41pm

ScumLord wrote: »

No, I've gone up against them. They like to get themselves onto every committee in the town and trying to get them to give up power is pretty difficult. Many of the public schemes in towns have been run through the parish councils.

Anyone can get on a committee; it doesn't mean the actual parish council has power. You will find power hungry people on these councils - committees attract such people but the councils themselves have no power.

Father Ted Crilly · 12-05-2015 6:18pm

Using a careful formula, I have worked out that the answer to this topic is one of the following:

1. God is real
2. God is real and I'm God
3. Everything, with the sole exception of me, is fake.

tommy2bad · 12-05-2015 6:35pm

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

Using a careful formula, I have worked out that the answer to this topic is one of the following:

1. God is real
2. God is real and I'm God
3. Everything, with the sole exception of me, is fake.

We're we in the same room I would give you a variation of Samuel Johnson's refutation of bishop Berkley.
a swift kick in the pants! :-P

Father Ted Crilly · 12-05-2015 6:38pm

If there's one thing I'm sure of and that I can actually prove, it's that there is no such thing as chance

Father Ted Crilly · 12-05-2015 7:36pm

I have now just worked out that in order for freewill to exist, chance must exist. But because chance doesn't exist, freewill doesn't exist. Someone else has made my decisions for me.

Frank Bullitt · 13-05-2015 12:57am

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

I have now just worked out that in order for freewill to exist, chance must exist. But because chance doesn't exist, freewill doesn't exist. Someone else has made my decisions for me.

Of course freewill exists, we have no choice but to have it!

If there's one thing I'm sure of and that I can actually prove, it's that there is no such thing as chance

Please show us.

marienbad · 13-05-2015 1:12am

katydid wrote: »

I'm asking YOU. You seem remarkably reluctant to be specific.

Is that supposed to MEAN something ? If you don't think two of the biggest Government departments is specific then I can't help you .

I would remind you that this is supposed to be a religion and not a giant management company.

MaxWig · 13-05-2015 8:26am

marienbad wrote: »

Is that supposed to MEAN something ? If you don't think two of the biggest Government departments is specific then I can't help you .

I would remind you that this is supposed to be a religion and not a giant management company.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but are you suggesting they spend their money without any expectation that it be spent in the manner in which those who donated it hoped it would?

katydid · 13-05-2015 9:06am

marienbad wrote: »

Is that supposed to MEAN something ? If you don't think two of the biggest Government departments is specific then I can't help you .

I would remind you that this is supposed to be a religion and not a giant management company.

It MEANS that apart from Education and Health (which I have acknowledged still have too much religious influence) where else in this state do the religious have undue influence?

I've asked three times now. You seem to be doing your best to avoid answering.

katydid · 13-05-2015 9:07am

MaxWig wrote: »

Just playing devil's advocate here, but are you suggesting they spend their money without any expectation that it be spent in the manner in which those who donated it hoped it would?

Everyone donates to the coffers, not just Roman Catholics.. It should be spend as per the constitution, to value all citizens equally. An atheist who can't send their child to the school down the road because the child isn't baptised is a taxpayer too

13-05-2015 9:16am

katydid wrote: »

It MEANS that apart from Education and Health (which I have acknowledged still have too much religious influence) where else in this state do the religious have undue influence?

I've asked three times now. You seem to be doing your best to avoid answering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE

Can I ask this question back to you instead?
What elements of the state do you feel the church has negligible influence on?

MaxWig · 13-05-2015 9:16am

katydid wrote: »

Everyone donates to the coffers, not just Roman Catholics..

Everyone donates to Roman Catholic Church collection, not just Roman Catholics?

OK.

(Backs away slowly)

indioblack · 13-05-2015 10:26am

hinault wrote: »

Presumption of God's mercy, and specifically a soul presuming that he/she will be saved, is a very grave error.

As for my taking relish at the fate of any soul which chooses to consign itself to Hell, this is simply untrue.

But is it really an error to presume that belief in god will bring salvation?
Surely that's the primary position, acceptance of a god.
To then have belief on the understanding than there may be no benefit from it seems a bit odd to me.
Especially when the reward is no small thing.

marienbad · 13-05-2015 12:22pm

katydid wrote: »

It MEANS that apart from Education and Health (which I have acknowledged still have too much religious influence) where else in this state do the religious have undue influence?

I've asked three times now. You seem to be doing your best to avoid answering.

Not at all katy, I just don't see the relevance of your question . For example If I included all the monies given to Christian Charities would you could back and say apart from Health, Education and Charities what other areas are there ?

You accept they have undue influence in Health and Education and that means that they have a profound influence on every single citizen of this land and do so multiple times in their lives . That I would think is enough to be going on with.

marienbad · 13-05-2015 12:28pm

MaxWig wrote: »

Just playing devil's advocate here, but are you suggesting they spend their money without any expectation that it be spent in the manner in which those who donated it hoped it would?

You will have to expand , I am not sure I get your point ?

MaxWig · 13-05-2015 12:33pm

marienbad wrote: »

You will have to expand , I am not sure I get your point ?

You say they are supposed to be a religion, and not a management company.

And while I agree that they should have no say in state issues, you can't really blame them for protecting their investments

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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