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Ongoing religious scandals

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    On the theme of stuff that was cut down, anyone know what happened to this yoke?

    329697.jpg

    Scrap the cap!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    All the land in Ireland is owned by somebody, though I have no idea who owns this particular piece of land.
    It's commonage, which means its in the joint ownership of numerous farmers, who farm the lower slopes.
    robindch wrote: »
    Yiz can all stand down the outrage and upset. The cross is to be stuck up again "as soon as possible".

    http://www.killarneytoday.com/mountain-cross-to-be-re-erected/
    It will be interesting to see if this disparate lot can actually get together to agree and implement a plan. Such groups exist primarily to negotiate public access rights in exchange for cash grants. I remember a few years ago there was money available for some relatively uncontroversial restoration/enhanced safety works on the Devil's Ladder, which is the slippy steep bit on the way up, and it was delayed for ages while waiting for all the stakeholders to agree.
    The days of voluntary labour for erecting shrines and crosses are probably gone, but on the other hand, it may be easier nowadays to crowd-source funding from donors outside the area, and then commission a new cross and have it lifted up and dropped by helicopter.
    That still leaves the planning permission. The planners in the planning dept. are not the same individuals who occupy the council chamber and spent public money erecting a crucifix there.

    Nelson's Pillar may well turn out to be an apt comparison. Most people at the time did not support its destruction, but neither could they muster the enthusiasm to re-instate it. Times had changed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,696 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    It will be interesting to see if this disparate lot can actually get together to agree and implement a plan . . .
    I suspect that, as long as it's believed that the previous cross was cut down in an act of antireligious vandalism, sheer bloody-mindedness will be a sufficent driver to get something put up in its place. Whereas if it's accepted that it came down due to corrosion, metal fatigue and the exposed conditions, it will all be forgotten.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    The Vatican has rejected an appeal by a former priest against his dismissal from the priesthood over child sex abuse.
    Dan Duane, from Mallow Co Cork, was defrocked following a canon law trial for abuse of teenagers and minors.
    In March 2013 a secret canonical court set up by the Cloyne diocese’s former administrator, Archbishop of Cashel and Emly, Dermot Clifford, ruled he should be forced to stand down as a priest having heard from a number of his victims.
    Previously Duane faced two criminal charges for sex abuse but was acquitted in both cases.
    source
    Curious that the civil courts acquitted this guy, but the RCC obviously thought he was guilty.
    I wonder if the burden of proof is higher in the criminal courts than in a canon law trial, seeing as the punishment is more tangible. It sometimes happens that someone gets acquitted in a criminal case but gets sued afterwards in a civil case where the burden of proof is lower, but the penalty is lesser; financial as opposed to jail time (eg OJ Simpson)

    Or could it be that the RCC had access to some incriminating evidence that the State was never made aware of?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    recedite wrote: »
    source
    Curious that the civil courts acquitted this guy, but the RCC obviously thought he was guilty.
    I wonder if the burden of proof is higher in the criminal courts than in a canon law trial, seeing as the punishment is more tangible. It sometimes happens that someone gets acquitted in a criminal case but gets sued afterwards in a civil case where the burden of proof is lower, but the penalty is lesser; financial as opposed to jail time (eg OJ Simpson)

    Or could it be that the RCC had access to some incriminating evidence that the State was never made aware of?

    I don't know, but wouldn't be surprised if they operated closer to the civil case standard of proof (balance of probabilities) rather than beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Of course it is possible that they have withheld evidence. It's also possible they have different rules on the admissibility of evidence, e.g. hearsay, so the canon law court had more evidence to consider.

    Print out and frame this post, it's me possibly sticking up for the RCC.

    Scrap the cap!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    In a canonical court the accused may also be questioned with hot irons applied to the soles of the feet.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,696 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I don't know, but wouldn't be surprised if they operated closer to the civil case standard of proof (balance of probabilities) rather than beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Of course it is possible that they have withheld evidence. It's also possible they have different rules on the admissibility of evidence, e.g. hearsay, so the canon law court had more evidence to consider.

    Print out and frame this post, it's me possibly sticking up for the RCC.
    Canon law, like civil law, applies different standards of proof to different questions. In "dismissal from the clerical state" cases (which this case was) the standard required is "moral certainty". I've read that commentaries on the Code of Canon Law say that, in practice, this tends to be pretty much the same as the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard applied in criminal cases in the secular courts.

    In the secular courts , Duane was acquitted, in two separate trials, of charges of assaulting two teenagers. Each trial dealt with (and I expect heard evidence from) only one victim, and the fact that accusations had been made by other victims was almost certainly not mentioned.

    From the newspaper report, in the canonical trial Duane was found to have abused "children and teenagers" - possibly (probably?) more than two of them - and it seems that the canonical tribunal heard from "a number of his victims". It seems likely that the canonical court heard evidence from some witnesses who didn't testify at either of his criminal trials, and the judges had the advantage of hearing the cumulative evidence of a number of victims.

    It's also possible that some of the sexual abuse considered in the canonical proceeding would not have been the subject of a criminal trial because it wasn't a breach of secular law - e.g. the victim was 17 or over, or the specific acts alleged, while repellent, fell short of what could be categorised as sexual assault for the purposes of Irish law.

    Factors like these might account for the different outcome of the canonical and the secular proceedings in this case.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    A judge in Spain charges 10 priests with child sex abuse

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31013653

    Oddly enough, the abuse happened in Granada, where the local archbishop, Francisco Javier Martinez, is a religious hardliner who came to the attention of A+A three years ago when he said that women who have abortions can be "abused without limit".


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Australia 'faces A$4bn' child-abuse compensation bill

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31052631
    BBC wrote:
    Australia may need to pay A$4.4bn ($3.4bn; £2.3bn) as compensation to the victims of child abuse, officials say. A consultation paper, released by Australia's Royal Commission into child sexual abuse, estimated 65,000 people may be entitled to compensation. The commission is investigating how schools, churches and government bodies responded to abuse claims and cases. It has also called for a national system for checking the history of people who seek to work with children.

    The commission was formed in April 2013, following pressure from lawmakers amid police claims that the Roman Catholic Church had concealed evidence of paedophile priests. There were revelations that child abusers were being moved from place to place instead of having their crimes reported and investigated. There were also accusations that adults had failed to stop further acts of abuse.

    On Friday, the commission's chair, Justice Peter McClellan, called for responses to the consultation paper so that a final report could be published in the middle of this year. "It is necessary for me to stress that the commissioners do not presently have firm views about any issue in the consultation paper," said Mr McClellan. Actuaries estimated 65,000 victims may be entitled to some level of redress, with an average payment of A$65,000. "Based on these assumptions, the total cost of redress nationally would be in the order of A$4.378bn," Justice McClellan said.

    In the two years since the commission was appointed, its commissioners have spoken to more than 2,850 survivors of child abuse in private sessions. It has also completed 21 public hearings and expects to hold another 17 hearings this year. Justice McClellan said the commissioners were developing a picture of a period when thousands of children were abused in a "high-risk environment", created by "prevailing social attitudes to children and unquestioning respect for the authority of institutions by adults". However, he acknowledged that the abuse of children "is not confined in time - it is happening today".

    Justice McClellan said there had long been a need for a national framework to check the backgrounds of people working with children. "Its absence is a blight upon the communities' efforts to provide effectively for the protection of children," he said. The consultation paper said the compensation scheme would be funded by contributions from both governments and institutions.

    If the state was a funder of last resort, a contribution of almost A$2bn would be required from various government authorities, and A$2.4bn would come from private institutions. The commission expects to provide a final report by December 2017.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Church gives up €42m in land deal for victims

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/church-gives-up-42m-in-land-deal-for-victims-30953892.html
    Indo wrote:
    The Government wanted the religious orders to pay half of the total bill of €1.4bn needed for redress payments and legal costs. But so far the value of the asset handover is still a long way short of the €700m the State is demanding. School buildings, convents, vestries, playing fields and associated lands across Ireland are included in the list. The highest value property handed over was grounds in Merrion, south Dublin, valued at €8.9m.

    Documents sent to the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) by Sean O Foghlu, Secretary General of the Department of Education, show that the properties were handed over "under the terms of the 2002 Indemnity Agreement". According to his letter, which has been seen by this newspaper, the department agreed in principle with the Conference of Religious in Ireland to take control of 64 properties. These properties have been accepted "subject to good and marketable title and agreed valuations. This number has been reduced to 61 as the department has accepted and received a sum of cash in lieu of three properties where good and marketable title could not be established," Mr O Foghlu wrote.

    According to the documents, apart from the significant site at Merrion, eight other properties worth more than €1m were surrendered. They include a Terenure secondary school valued at €4.5m; St Teresa's convent at Temple Hill in Blackrock, valued at €3.1m, and a Traveller site also in Blackrock, which was valued at €3.1m. Other significant properties handed over included two separate properties in Tuam, Galway, valued at €3,020,000; St Anne's Secondary School, which was valued at €2,600,000; Holy Cross Gardens, Killarney, Co Kerry (€1,270,000); 23 Parnell Square, Dublin (€1,270,000); and Goldenbridge Group Homes, which were valued at €1,269,700.

    As of December 31, a total of 44 properties have been transferred to the department and "there are no outstanding issues," Mr O Foghlu said. The 44 properties, he said, represented two-thirds of the total monetary value of all properties being transferred under the Indemnity Agreement, excluding the cash in lieu settlement. The documents went on to state that 17 properties have not yet fully transferred and "arrangements are being finalised".

    "As it was likely that nine of the remaining properties would not meet the standard of good and marketable title required by the 2002 agreement, the Government agreed in 2013 that such properties could not be accepted," Mr O Foghlu said. He said his department was engaging with the office of the Chief State Solicitor, who in turn is dealing with lawyers for the religious orders as well as the Health Service Executive (HSE).

    The total cost of offering redress to the victims of abuse has soared to almost €1.4bn. Under a controversial 2002 indemnity agreement, 18 religious orders which ran care institutions pledged to contribute €128m in cash, property and counselling services towards redress costs for abuse survivors. However, they later agreed to contribute €352.6 million for victims of institutional abuse. So far they have paid less than a quarter of that.

    [...]


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    On the theme of stuff that was cut down, anyone know what happened to this yoke?

    329697.jpg

    'fraid not, totally stumped!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Over 7,000 babies died in state-run hell holes

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/over-7000-babies-died-state-run-5074339
    More than 7,000 babies and children died in Ireland’s mother and baby homes during the last century, new documents reveal. But the real figure is likely to be much higher as records do not include miscarriages or stillbirths.

    In some cases, babies who survived only a few hours were wrongly registered as stillborns to avoid registering the birth and the death. Now documents shown to the Irish Mirror by Paul Redmond, chairman of the Coalition of Mother And Baby Home Survivors, reveal the true extent of the shocking loss of life.

    The figures relate to the nine “official” mother and baby homes with the number of women and girls estimated to have gone through these institutions at between 25,000 and 27,000. Records show at least 7,150 infants lost their lives and many are buried in designated Angels’ Plots inside or near the grounds of the homes.

    Ahead of the upcoming inquiry, Mr Redmond demanded the outrageous death rates be acknowledged. He said: “I want to see memorials for all of them. There are several Angels’ Plots throughout the country of various sizes. We want to see it acknowledged.

    “My group Adoption Rights Now have been asking for a long time that ownership of all the Angels’ Plots be handed over to trust committees of natural mothers and adoptees. We believe we are the only people who are fit to look after them.”

    [...]


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    robindch wrote: »
    and a Traveller site also in Blackrock, which was valued at €3.1m.

    Interesting. I didn't realise that was owned by the church. I was always a bit bemused at how the travellers were let be there on such a piece of prime real estate in one of the most expensive spots in Dublin. I'm quite sad it'll be taken away from them actually - I imagine that the county council won't be shy of moving them to a more appropriately isolated spot with a distinct lack of amenities.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,971 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I'd say a few Fionnuala O'Carroll-Kelly types yelped joyously when they read that little bit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,696 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Shrap wrote: »
    Interesting. I didn't realise that was owned by the church. I was always a bit bemused at how the travellers were let be there on such a piece of prime real estate in one of the most expensive spots in Dublin. I'm quite sad it'll be taken away from them actually - I imagine that the county council won't be shy of moving them to a more appropriately isolated spot with a distinct lack of amenities.
    It won't necessarily be taken away from them. The land is being handed over to the State, not the County Council, so the Council doesn't have a huge incentive to move the travellers - they won't benefit from the freeing-up of the land, and there will be inevitable blowback from wherever the new site is located. The State would like to see the halting site moved, obviously, but the Council which actually provides and runs the halting site has no great incentive to co-operate. They'll have to work something out between them; that could take time.

    And this highlights a wider issue with the whole business of religious orders transferring land to the state. The land is valued on the basis of its commercial or development potential (and when people say that the religious orders hold x million euros in assets this is usually the basis on which they are valuing the assets) but in fact much of it is in non-commercial use - halting sites, women's refuges, schools, hospitals, convalescent homes, old people's homes, etc. If these are handed over to the state, the state can't realise the commercial or development potential of the land unless it either closes or moves the halting sites, refuges, schools, etc. Closure would be unpopular, to put it mildly; moving could be expensive and would require some other land not to be exploited to maximim financial advantage. There's a distinct risk that what we'll see is a lot of social service institutions of various kinds moved to smaller, less pleasant, less convenient and less suitable sites in order to free up their existing sites for development or sale.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Religious orders blame property crash for redress shortfall

    The religious orders have explained that they can't/won't make up the shortfall in their contributions to the redress fund as property prices have fallen. There is so much wrong with their report that it defies belief that they apparently expect to be taken seriously.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/religious-orders-blame-property-crash-for-redress-shortfall-1.2091752
    Religious congregations who have failed to make promised payments to cover their share of institutional redress costs have blamed the shortfall on fluctuations in the property market. The orders claim that their property assets have suffered a 30 per cent drop in value since 2009. Correspondence between the congregations and the Department of Education, obtained by The Irish Times under the Freedom of Information Act, shows religious orders are taking a firm line against further contributions that would meet the Government’s target of an equal sharing of redress costs.

    The congregations have to date lodged €81.44 million in the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund through cash payments and proceeds from property sales. A further €42 million of property has been transferred to State ownership, leaving the congregations more than €300 million short of pledged contributions. To pay their half-share of the redress bill, as sought by the Government, the congregations will have to meet these existing commitments and come up with a further €245 million in cash or property. The cost of the redress scheme for institutional child abuse is estimated to reach €1.45 billion.

    Daughters of Charity
    The Daughters of Charity has in recent weeks made a further cash contribution of €1 million to the fund, but it is still €7 million short of its pledged contribution. According to the department, the order has said this would be difficult to meet “without serious damage to the future of the congregation”. The Presentation Sisters order has paid €4 million to date.

    However, plans to hand over premises in Fethard, Co Tipperary, to the Health Service Executive (HSE) have stalled, during which time its valuation has fallen from a 2009 price tag of €1 million. In a letter to the department, the congregation said: “If the value of the property has changed since our offer was made and accepted, we cannot take responsibility for fluctuations in the property market.”

    Sisters of Mercy
    The Sisters of Mercy similarly pointed to falling property prices for its shortfall. In 2009, the order offered cash of €20 million and properties worth €107.5 million. While the cash payments have been made, most of the properties have either failed to achieve their valuation or have been held up by legal problems. Of 18 properties prepared by the congregation for sale, 11 had been sold by last October. These included a convent in Cobh (valued at €1 million but sold for €246,747); Ardagh Demesne, in Co Longford (valued at €2.2 million but sold for €1.35 million); and a former convent in Dundalk (valued at €500,000 but sold for €180,714).

    Overall, the Sisters of Mercy said the order had achieved only 65 per cent of the €6.7 million valuation made in 2009 for the 11 properties. The congregation also agreed to transfer 13 educational properties, valued at €19.6 million, to the department, and four health properties, valued at €61.3 million, to the HSE. These include the National Rehabilitation Hospital in Dún Laoghaire. All of these transfers are part of a €352.6 million commitment in funding made by the congregations following the publication of the Ryan report in 2009.

    An additional €128 million was pledged by the congregations under a 2002 indemnity agreement with the State. This agreement included cash contributions of €54 million, which have been met, and the transfer of 61 properties, 44 of which have been achieved.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    robindch wrote: »
    There is so much wrong with their *theology/doctrine/world view/historicity/* that it defies belief that they apparently expect to be taken seriously.


    Think about it Rob...

    Of course they expect to be taken seriously.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,971 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    robindch wrote: »
    Religious orders blame property crash for redress shortfall

    The religious orders have explained that they can't/won't make up the shortfall in their contributions to the redress fund as property prices have fallen. There is so much wrong with their report that it defies belief that they apparently expect to be taken seriously.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/religious-orders-blame-property-crash-for-redress-shortfall-1.2091752

    They'll probably make excuses like this:
    Trite. A journalist's article which while fine at pushing a particular agenda fails to address the historical economic problems faced by Irish at the time which the government sought to address by exporting the poor and leaving the Church to cope with the remnant.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The Vatican has announced that it's going to have a think about requiring its senior representatives to comply with national law regarding the protection of pedophiles priests:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/plan-to-draw-up-sanctions-for-bishops-in-abuse-cases-1.2097456
    The Holy See’s Commission for the Protection of Minors officially acknowledged yesterday that one of the first issues it intends to address is “bishop accountability”. Essentially, this entails the implementation of disciplinary sanctions against those bishops who cover up for abuser priests and who fail to impose zero-tolerance policies in their dioceses.

    Since the emergence of the clerical sex abuse phenomenon 20 years ago, the Catholic Church has, slowly and with much difficulty, developed tough accountability measures for priests found to be sex abusers. Speaking at a UN hearing in Geneva a year ago, the Vatican’s UN ambassador, Silvano Tomasi, pointed out that in the course of just two years, 2011 and 2012, Pope Benedict had “defrocked” nearly 400 priests for offences relating to child abuse. Until now, no similarly tough sanctions have applied to bishops who covered up for abuser priests. Speaking at a Vatican press conference last Saturday, British abuse survivor Peter Saunders, a member of the Holy See commission, said that he and other commission members want to see swift action on this.

    Yesterday’s communiqué, at the end of a three-day plenary session in Rome last weekend, stated: “The commission is keenly aware that the issue of accountability is of major importance. In its assembly, members agreed on an initial proposal to submit to Pope Francis for consideration. Moreover, the commission is developing processes to ensure accountability for everyone in the church – clergy, religious, and laity – who works with minors.” The exact nature of the proposal is not yet clear, but it seems that the commission intends to move on from the present situation in which, basically, the only person/body who can discipline a bishop is the pope himself. In other words, the commission is proposing that some entity, at local or Roman level, be given powers of sanction over bishops.

    On Saturday, both Peter Saunders and fellow abuse survivor and commission member, Irish woman Marie Collins, indicated that if, within about two years, they felt that the commission was making no progress, they would resign their posts. Ms Collins said: “I think I probably would mirror what Peter said this morning. In other words . . . if we don’t have something solid in place in relation to bishop accountability within the next two years, I don’t know if I would want to remain on the commission . . . That is a survivor’s point of view.”

    In its statement, the 17-person commission also argued that part of the process of “ensuring accountability is raising awareness and understanding at all levels of the church”. To that end, the commission has called for seminars to educate the church leadership on child protection. Yesterday’s statement also said that the commission was keen to “collaborate with churches on a local level”.

    Speaking last Saturday, commission president Cardinal Seán O’Malley, of Boston, said that the commission intended to establish a “contact person” with all bishops’ conferences and with all religious orders. Furthermore, yesterday’s statement said that the commission is also preparing a “day of prayer” for all those harmed by sexual abuse.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/02/10/hard-habits-to-break/
    The National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church (NBSCCCI) published this morninbg its overview of the safeguarding practice conducted in the Religious Congregations.

    They included The Augustinians; The Passionists: The Sacred Hearts Fathers of Jesus and Mary; The Discalced Carmelites (OCD); The Franciscan Friars; The Franciscan Brothers; The Servites; The Marist Fathers and The Dominican Sisters

    The inspection process revealed:

    * Poor record management in many cases making an assessment of practice difficult.
    * Opportunities to safeguard children were missed, known abusers allowed to remain in ministry in 1990s.
    * Variable delays in reporting allegations to the civil authorities up until 2009 (introduction of Safeguarding Children, Standards and Guidance) for most Orders and Congregations, however for some practice did not improve until 2013.

    Teresa Devlin, CEO of NBSCCCI sez:
    “In relation to the large reviews, I’m disappointed that, for the majority of Orders, the whole area of safeguarding is only being bedded down in the last couple of years,” said . “Of the 9 only two Orders have demonstrated good compliance with the standards, and have demonstrated their commitment to putting in place good safeguards for children as well as prompt responses to allegations of abuse. For the other 7 there is considerable work to be done. “A series of recommendations have been made within each report and the Board expects that these will be acted upon…We will request an update on their progress in implementing those recommendations in 9 months.”

    Good times.

    Franciscans express ‘regret’ over failure to protect children (RTÉ)

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0210/679127-franciscans/

    regret?
    Oh that makes it all ok then, lets move along and forget about their evil past


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    More here:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/church-body-disappointed-at-tardy-compliance-by-orders-1.2098183
    Of the eight male and one female congregations reviewed, there were 109 allegations against 28 Franciscan Friars with 3 convicted in the courts; 42 allegations against 28 Passionists with no convictions; 56 allegations against 14 Franciscan Brothers with 3 convictions; 33 allegations against 11 Augustinians with no convictions; 18 allegations against 7 Marist Fathers with no convictions; 11 allegations against 6 Discalced Carmelites with no convictions; 8 allegations against 6 Servites with 2 convictions; 5 allegations against 3 Sacred Heart Fathers with no convictions; 3 allegations against 3 Dominican Sisters with no convictions.

    That is a shockingly low conviction rate. I know the conviction rate for sexual offences is very low here in general, but still.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,696 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    That is a shockingly low conviction rate. I know the conviction rate for sexual offences is very low here in general, but still.
    Well, the article there is comparing conviction rates with allegations. More usually conviction rates are expressed in relation to complaints (to the police) or charges.

    Normally you'd expect the number of allegations of a particular crime to the similar to the number of complaints to the police, but we are dealing here with allegations of sexual abuse committed between 1940 and 1998; it might be deplorable but it wouldn't be surprising if many of those allegations (to religious authorities) did not turn into complaints (to the police) or only did so much later. And the same delay factor might explain why a relatively high proportion of complaints might not turn into charges - the passage of time might make assembling the evidence for a prosecution impossible, or the accused may be dead.

    I think this low conviction rate is wrapping up a number of factors - failure/reluctance of victims or their families to complaint to the police; actions/attitudes by church authorities which discouraged reporting; late reporting; evidentiary problems in the way of charges/convictions.

    I think it would be easier to disentangle these statistics if we knew how many people had been charged, and also if we knew how many allegations were also the subject of police complaints at or near to the time.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Australian archbishop charged with concealing child abuse

    http://www.thejournal.ie/australian-archbishop-charged-child-sex-abuse-1996378-Mar2015/?utm_source=email
    THE CATHOLIC ARCHBISHOP of Adelaide was today charged with concealing child sex abuse and has taken leave from his high-level position to fight the allegation. Philip Wilson was charged by New South Wales police in relation to an offence allegedly committed during the 1970s by known-paedophile priest Jim Fletcher, now dead, when both men worked at a diocese near Newcastle, north of Sydney.

    Local media said the 64-year-old is thought to be the most senior Catholic official in the world to face charges of this nature, and if sentenced could face up to two years behind bars. The charge is the work of Strike Force Lantle, which since 2010 has investigated claims of child abuse concealment by former and current clergy attached to the Maitland-Newcastle Diocese of the Catholic Church.

    Wilson issued a statement acknowledging the developments. “I am disappointed to have been notified by the NSW Police that it has decided to file a charge in respect of this matter,” he said, adding that he would “vigorously defend” his innocence. "I intend to take some leave to consult with a wide range of people in response to the information I have received today,” he said.
    A victim of Fletcher, Peter Gogarty, told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation he felt overwhelming relief that charges had been laid.

    “I think it’s a very, very important day for Australia, that we’ve now had someone in such a high position charged,” he said. “I hasten to add, everyone in this country is entitled to the presumption of innocence, but… the fact that our legal system has decided to charge someone this senior is enormously significant.”

    The matter is listed for mention in court on April 30. The charges come as Australia is in the midst of a nationwide investigation into claims of paedophilia in institutions such as religious organisations, schools and state care. It was established by former prime minister Julia Gillard in 2013 after more than a decade of pressure and has heard damaging allegations of child abuse involving churches, orphanages, schools and other groups dating back decades.

    Wilson has given evidence to the royal commission and he said this was indicative of his efforts to adopt “best-practice child protection measures which I have pioneered since becoming a bishop”.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    ^ That will never happen here :mad:

    Scrap the cap!



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ^ That will never happen here :mad:
    No, I don't expect it will.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    More suspicious financial activities involving the RCC and funds for cemetery maintenance:

    Last time it came up on A+A was here and here.

    Now, it seems that there might be significant financial irregularities in Milwaukee. While at the same time, the RCC there is also claiming that money seems to have been rapidly transferred into a mausoleum fund, can't be used to settle abuse claims.

    Not sure about anybody else, but I'd love to see how money flows in, around and through the RCC.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    Priest arrested for exorcism on anorexic girl.

    http://www.thelocal.es/20150318/priest-arrested-for-exorcism-on-underage-girl
    A judge in Burgos has called for the arrest of exorcist, Jesús Hernández Sahagún, along with the girl’s priest after she went through 13 exorcisms while still a minor.

    Sahagún, the official exorcist of Valladolid, is facing charges of gender violence, causing injury and mistreatment according to local newspaper, Diario de Burgos, and has been asked to make a statement on the events.

    The events date back to 2012, when the girl began to suffer from anorexia. According to El País, her religious parents became convinced she was possessed by the devil and decided to have their child exorcised.

    She was tied up and had crucifixes positioned over her head, according to El País.

    The girl subsequently attempted suicide and an investigation was launched after her aunts and uncles filed a complaint.

    In a statement the girl’s parents told the court that the exorcist was aware that the young girl was in medical treatment at the time and had full access to her clinical records.

    The priest reportedly assured the parents that the exorcism would not interfere with their daughter’s medical treatment, but voiced disapproval of the number of medicines the girl had been prescribed.

    In an interview with El Mundo in December 2014, Hernández Sahagún defended the 13 exorcisms, explaining the girl was "possessed by the devil". He also told the Spanish newspaper that he had performed 200 exorcisms over the past four and a half years.

    In December 2014, the archbishop of Burgos issued a statement saying "the young woman’s suicide attempt was not a result of the exorcisms practiced on her."

    He also defended exorcisms as "a religious practice maintained as part of the Church’s tradition, as a right available to all the faithful."

    In July 2014, Pope Francis made exorcisms official Catholic practice, with the Vatican hailing them as "a form of charity".

    There are currently around 15 priests in Spain with Church authorization to conduct exorcisms and in 2013 a specialist exorcism squad was chosen in Madrid to tackle the "unprecented rise in demonic possession"


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Survivors outraged at plan to seal abuse reports for 75 years

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/survivors-outraged-at-plan-to-seal-abuse-reports-for-75-years-31086753.html
    Indo wrote:
    Surviviors of institutional abuse have expressed outrage over Government plans to seal all major industrial school and orphanage investigation records for 75 years. The move, which also allows for the possible destruction of documents, must now be ratified by the Dáil in a bill which will be brought forward by Education Minister Jan O'Sullivan.

    The Irish Independent has learned that the bill has been approved by Cabinet for drafting. The Retention of Records Bill 2015 will provide for the strict and confidential sealing of documents from the Commission into Child Abuse, the Residential Institutions Redress Board and the Residential Institutions Review Committee.

    Tom Cronin of Irish Survivors of Institutional Abuse International said abuse survivors were "shocked and horrified" that the records would be sealed for so long. "I can understand that these documents are sensitive and that they might need to be sealed for a period of years.

    "But why seal them for 75 years? Why not seal them for five or 10 years? By the time they can be accessed again, everyone associated with this most shameful period of Irish history will be long dead. The whole thing won't be anything more than a footnote in history by 2090," he said. [...]


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,971 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I would have expected such a dick move from the likes of Ronan Mullen.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,773 ✭✭✭eire4


    robindch wrote: »



    This is just horrible. Beyond an insult to injury for the victims who suffered so much. This is shameful if allowed to pass.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Recorded this a couple of weeks ago and watched it last night, it was very good, anyone else here see it?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05psdvz
    My Mother the Secret Baby
    Storyville,
    2014-2015

    In this funny and moving documentary, acclaimed film-maker Daisy Asquith tells the very personal story of her mother's conception after a dance in the 1940s on the remote west coast of Ireland.

    By exploring the repercussions of this act, Daisy and her mother embark on a fascinating and emotional adventure in social and sexual morality. Her grandmother, compelled to run away to have her baby in secret, handed the child over to 'the nuns'. Daisy's mum was eventually adopted by English Catholics from Stoke-on-Trent. Her grandmother returned to Ireland and told no-one. The father remained a mystery for another 60 years, until Daisy and her mum decided it was time to find out who he was.

    Their attempts to find the truth make raw the fear and shame that Catholicism has wrought on the Irish psyche for centuries. It leads Daisy and her mum to connect with a brand new family living an extraordinarily different life.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/church-state-and-marriage-1.2188131
    There was no statutory minimum, but common law held it to be 14 for boys and 12 for girls.

    Between 1961 and 1963, 129 marriages had involved 14- or 15-year-olds, and 25 babies had been born to 13- or 14-year-old girls. At least one of these marriages had been covered by Sunday newspapers in the UK – where the minimum age for marriage was a uniform 16 – in what MacEntee described as an "unsavoury or sensational" way. He believed that the coverage hurt Ireland’s reputation abroad. At the time Spain was the only other European country with such a low minimum age.

    Canon law did not set a minimum age, but a bishop had to approve any marriage where the groom was under 16 or the bride was under 14. Now the Catholic hierarchy, MacEntee told his cabinet colleagues, "have pressed strongly for the omission of any lower age limit to the granting of permission. They stated that, with the improvement in the standard of living, the tendency is for young people to mature at an earlier age, and that it would be undesirable to set any arbitrary level below which it would not be permissible to grant permission for a marriage."

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/priest-sexually-abused-girl-while-hearing-her-first-confession-1.2188013
    A 76-year-old retired priest who sexually abused a seven-year-old girl while hearing her first confession has been jailed for two years.

    John Calnan, who is no longer in ministry, was sentenced to three years in jail, with the final year suspended, after pleading guilty to sexually assaulting the girl in West Cork in 1989.

    ...

    When the little girl finished her confession, Calnan rearranged her clothing and gave her absolution and penance and told her that she could leave the kitchenette, said Sgt Downey.

    ...

    "When brought to the attention of the school, my family were met with denial and a feeling of guilt and shame was inflicted on them," she said.

    "There were thinly veiled warnings about speaking out and how they would be thought of within the local community."

    Scrap the cap!



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Cardinal Pell of Australia, who now minds the Vatican's finances, continues to be dogged by allegations that he protected Australia's child molesters:

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/cardinal-george-pell-may-have-aided-cover-up-of-australias-worst-paedophile-royal-commission-hears/story-fni0fee2-1227360061642
    Herald Sun wrote:
    CARDINAL George Pell may have unwittingly helped protect Australia’s worst paedophile priest by moving him between parishes and covering up his evil crimes, it had been alleged. In explosive allegations before the royal commission into sexual abuse this morning it was alleged the high-ranking Cardinal sat on a committee that protected notorious paedophile Gerald Ridsdale.

    Ridsdale, who has spent decades behind bars, has admitted molesting at least 54 victims but it has been estimated he molested more than 200 children while being shuffled around parishes. Cardinal Pell has persistently denied knowing the extent of offending by notorious paedophile Gerald Ridsdale before he controversially accompanied him to a court hearing in 1993.

    But the commission heard this morning he sat on a committee in September 1982 that considered Ridsdale’s offending when deciding to move him on. Counsel assisting the commission Gail Furness, SC, said the then Fr Pell was one of seven people at the meeting, including Ballarat bishop Ronald Mulkearns.

    The minutes of the meeting noted Bishop Mulkearns as advising it had become necessary for Ridsdale to be moved from the Parish of Mortlake, with negotiations underway to move him to NSW. “The minutes do not disclose what the Bishop said about why it became necessary,” Ms Furness said. “However, as indicated earlier, it is expected that there will be evidence that Bishop Mulkearns knew it was because Ridsdale had abused boys in Mortlake, and that he had offended in this manner in 1975.”

    [...]

    Cardinal Pell, who now minds the Vatican finances, accompanied Ridsdale to court in 1993 sparking outrage from victims. “At that stage nobody knew, at least I certainly didn’t, the extent of what proved to be an infamous career,” he said later. “I knew there was a very significant number of offences, I didn’t know the details of those offences. I knew that Ridsdale was pleading guilty. His lawyer asked me to appear in court before him.”

    Cardinal Pell lived with Ridsdale in the early 1970s but claims he as not a close friend of his.

    [...]


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Why does lecturing on the benefits of keeping one's trousers up, so often result in trousers coming down:

    http://guff.com/glt-obnoxious-right-wing-moralists-who-were-caught-with-their-pants-down/20?ts_pid=2


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    So presumably Pell's new job comes with a nice gaff within the Vatican's walls.

    Safely out of reach of any extradition treaty.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,696 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    So presumably Pell's new job comes with a nice gaff within the Vatican's walls.

    Safely out of reach of any extradition treaty.
    Why bother with boring facts, when we can just presume into existence a reality that conforms to our preconceptions?

    When Pell is in Rome, he stays at the Marist guest house, which is not in the Vatican. It's in Via Cernaia, which is near the Termini station. Anyone can stay there - you'll find it on Tripadvisor. His own home is a flat in Sydney. He spends a good deal of time in Australia, anybody who wants to serve him with court papers - and there have been several - has had no trouble in doing so and, should he ever be charged with anything, it's unlikely that there will be much difficulty in arresting him. He has stated his willingness to attend and give evidence at the Royal Commission now sitting, and has said that he expects to be asked to do so.

    I don't like the guy, but I don't think that justifies inventing a reality in which he is a fugitive avoiding extradition. The reality is that he has not been accused of any offence, so far as has been reported in the papers, much less charged with one, and he is wholly amenable to the jurisdication of the Australian authorities.

    Presumably Hotblack lives in a secret lair in a hollowed-out volcano, stroking a fluffy white cat and plotting the destruction of our liberties? :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    You do accept they have form in that regard.

    So Pell isn't a fugitive from justice, he's unlikely to ever face trial though and he should, along with many others.

    Scrap the cap!



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don't like the guy, but I don't think that justifies inventing a reality in which he is a fugitive avoiding extradition. The reality is that he has not been accused of any offence, so far as has been reported in the papers, much less charged with one, and he is wholly amenable to the jurisdication of the Australian authorities.
    Legally, what you're saying is exactly true. However, as with all of Pell's comments, his choice of language is measured, precise, free of emotion and where possible, avoiding even the shadow of responsibility.

    Pell sounds, to me at least, less like the moral guardian of open truth, freedom and honesty, and far more as though he's hiding something, and doing so with the practiced skill of a razor-sharp legal mind.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Oh dear, oh dear. Another pastor, known for banging the anti-gay drum, has been found going places where no pastor should have gone before.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/05/20/antigay-pastor-resigns-after-outed--grindr/27642355/
    USA Today wrote:
    A Michigan pastor, who has publicly railed against gay marriage, has resigned from his post after being outed by the gay and lesbian entertainment website Queerty. The Rev. Matthew Makela made the announcement on Sunday in a letter to the congregation at St. John's Lutheran Church and School in Midland. His resignation became effective Monday.

    According to screenshots obtained by Queerty, Makela was soliciting sex from men on Grindr, an app geared toward gay, bisexual and bi-curious men. The married father of five reportedly confirmed the authenticity of the screenshots to Queerty but declined to comment. The article also included a screenshot of a Facebook post opposing gay marriage that Makela wrote in September that read:

    "Read these words this morning: 'Long before gay marriage was part of our national discussion, natural marriage did not always reflect God's will of love and submission. Divorce became common, love in marriage grew colder and children were not always seen as a blessing. Changing the culture begins with changing our culture of marriage and family, taking the marriage union with the utmost seriousness and welcoming children in our church.' AMEN!"

    Makela told Queerty that he resigned from his position after the story surfaced and that his wife and senior pastor were aware of his activity on the app. In a letter posted on the St. John's church website, the church's senior pastor, the Rev. Daniel Kempin tells parishioners that Makela "has acknowledged that there was sin and repentance, and I have testified that there is indeed forgiveness through the same Lord who forgives all our sins." He goes on to say, "To make matters worse, though, the details of sin that have been kept confidential are being posted online by those who seek to do harm to the Makela family and to St. John's."

    Makela's bio was removed from the church's website Monday afternoon.

    [...]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Josh Duggar quits Family Research Council, a conservative lobbying organization, after molestation claims.

    Duggar, a high-profile member of the evangelical Christian family that stars on TLC’s “19 Kids and Counting,” and a conservative and anti-gay activist, resigned from his position at the Family Research Council on Thursday after reports that detailed multiple instances in which Duggar had allegedly committed acts of sexual misconduct against minors.

    More here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/05/21/josh-duggar-apologizes-resigns-from-family-research-council-amid-molestation-allegations/


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Josh Duggar quits Family Research Council, a conservative lobbying organization, after molestation claims.
    Could happen to a bishop.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Vatican cardinal caught up in hospital financing investigation

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/06/20/uk-italy-cardinal-idUKKBN0P00EY20150620?irpc=932
    Reuters wrote:
    Italian magistrates suspect a Vatican cardinal may have diverted 30 million euros (21.45 million pounds) in state funds destined for a children's hospital to save a Church-owned institution and kept the operation from Pope Francis, Italian media reported on Saturday. Both Cardinal Giuseppe Versaldi and the Bambino Gesu hospital, denied any wrongdoing in separate statements.

    Leading Italian newspapers said magistrates in the southern city of Trani suspected the two violated laws on inappropriate use of public funds. The southern magistrates asked their Rome colleagues to take up the investigation. The reports were based on leaked documents from magistrates, including transcripts of police wiretaps, that emerged from another investigation into a fraudulent bankruptcy of a health institution in the south.

    They said Versaldi and former Bambino Gesu President Giuseppe Profiti agreed to divert 30 million euros of the 80 million euros the Italian senate had destined for Rome's Bambino Gesu paediatric hospital in 2014. The magistrates suspect that the money may have gone instead to save the Istituto Dermatologico dell' Immacolata (IDI), a dermatological clinic in Rome owned by a Catholic religious order.

    At the time IDI was placed under receivership after it ran up losses of more than 600 million euros and risked closing. According to a wiretap of a conversation between Versaldi and Profiti, they allegedly agreed to keep the subject from the pope at a meeting with him later that day in February, the newspapers said.

    Versaldi, who was then head of a Vatican economic department, said in a statement sent to Italian news agencies he had not kept anything from the pope but had wanted to spare him the technical details of the financial operation to save IDI. Bambino Gesu, which was donated to the Vatican in 1924 and is considered one of Italy's best paediatric hospitals, said in a statement sent to Reuters that it "categorically denied" the reports and that "not even one euro" had been diverted.

    Many hospitals in Italy that are religiously affiliated receive state funds because of the role they play in the country's overall health care system.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,071 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Brendan Smyth
    What scum

    So the Gardaí knew about him since 1974


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Sickening, but not at all surprising.

    And we wonder why nothing is happening in Tuam?

    Scrap the cap!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    He asked a psychiatrist to write a letter to the Gardai, which seems to have got him off the hook.
    In a letter to an officer at Finglas garda station dated 1 November 1973, Smyth's psychiatrist said he was recommending the cleric be admitted for treatment.
    The doctor said: "I have been asked to write to you by Fr Brendan Smyth of Holy Trinity Abbey, Kilnacrott.
    "He has been a patient under my care for some months and I am familiar with the nature of his problems. I am writing to his superior suggesting that he should have a period of inpatient care in St Patrick's Hospital or in St Edmonds Bury.
    "I hope this arrangement will be satisfactory to you and your superiors."
    source


    There's a lot wrong with that.
    Firstly, the psychiatrist should not have been so easily manipulated.
    Secondly, the Gardai should not have dropped whatever actions they were planning themselves. If he had been charged and found guilty, he could have been sent for treatment after the conviction, if that was deemed more appropriate than jail time (which I doubt).
    Thirdly and most importantly, he should have been monitored for life afterwards, and barred from ever going near kids.

    I wonder if he even attended this "period of in-patient care".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,773 ✭✭✭eire4


    Sickening, but not at all surprising.

    And we wonder why nothing is happening in Tuam?



    It would seem the current government is still more interested in sweeping the mother and child scandals under the carpet as well. Given what we know now you would think they would falling over themselves to get a fully independant inquiry set up with wide ranging scope to investigate. But that clearly isn't the case. They seem more concerned with the bank balance then the many human lives damaged and even destroyed. Just disgusting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,221 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    I am a Catholic but I do think as a result of what I have been hearing over the last few days re Brendan Smyth and the part that Cardinal Brady played in investigating the claims of the young boys who were abused by Smyth that the cardinal should resign his post today. Speaking about it being a different time and a different culture etc is pure horse$h1t, abusing kids(abusing anybody!) was just as wrong in 1975 as it would be today.


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