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The Curiosity On Mars Thread.

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    #1112
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    http://www.nasa.gov/jpl/msl/team-chooses-not-to-drill-20140822/
    Evaluation of a pale, flat Martian rock as the potential next drilling target for NASA's Curiosity Mars rover determined that the rock was not stable enough for safe drilling.
    The rock, called "Bonanza King," moved slightly during the mini-drill activity on Wednesday, at an early stage of this test, when the percussion drill impacted the rock a few times to make an indentation.
    Instead of drilling that or any similar rock nearby, the team has decided that Curiosity will resume driving toward its long-term destination on the slopes of a layered mountain. It will take a route skirting the north side of a sandy-floored valley where it turned around two weeks ago.
    "We have decided that the rocks under consideration for drilling, based on the tests we did, are not good candidates for drilling," said Curiosity Project Manager Jim Erickson of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California. "Instead of drilling here, we will resume driving toward Mount Sharp."
    There's no high res pics of where its at now but its probably safe to say its turning around and heading off for the hills! Oh wait, its reversing its way to the hills!!:)


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    #1113
    Rucking_Fetard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Rucking_Fetard


    Curiosity's Wheels Are Falling Apart (And How We Can Solve It)


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    #1114
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Rucking_Fetard wrote: »
    Curiosity's Wheels Are Falling Apart (And How We Can Solve It)
    They waffle on a fair bit but i think they deliberately underengineered the wheels so as to call a halt to the program whenever they wanted to. Thats not to say they would pull the plug before useful science was done. Rather, after nursing the rover to its destination, the team will just drive her on and the wheels will simply evaporate, thus ending the mission in a timely fashion and saving mega dollars. In fairness, they will be dollars spent learning new shtuff so i actually get this stunt. If it is what i think it is, that is! You could put a fierce CT spin on this but i think it is simply economics. No point keeping a worn out rover going with only a dashcam working on it, eh?


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    #1115
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    shedweller wrote: »
    They waffle on a fair bit but i think they deliberately underengineered the wheels so as to call a halt to the program whenever they wanted to.

    I don't think so. There is a long history of missions failing because one or other element fails first, and folks thinking damn, the rest of it is so sturdy, and up for so much more science, but this one part is failing. The fact is that something has to fail first, and the whole mission is always under extreme pressure to optimise everything.

    Here's Carl Sagan writing in 1973:

    About a year before the Mariner 9 mission was launched, the possibility was raised that the spacecraft would run out of control gas. A solution was proposed: That the propulsion tanks be connected to the attitude-control gas system – a kind of spacecraft anastamosis. Excess propulsion gas could then be used for attitude control in case the attitude-control nitrogen was exhausted. This possibility was rejected – largely because of its expense. It would have cost $30,000. But no one expected Mariner 9 to last long enough to use up its attitude-control gas. Its nominal lifetime was ninety days – and it lasted almost a full year. The engineers had been overly conservative in assessing their superb product.

    In retrospect, it sounds very much like false economy. With an adequate supply of attitude-control gas, the spacecraft might have lasted another full year in orbit around Mars. About $150 million of science might have been bought for $30,000 of pipe. Had we known that the spacecraft would die from a lack of nitrogen, I am almost certain that the planetary scientists involved would have raised the $30,000 themselves.


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    #1116
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Are Curiosity's wheels really in such bad condition? This is really disappointing if that's the case.


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    #1117
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Are Curiosity's wheels really in such bad condition? This is really disappointing if that's the case.
    They are getting fairly ropey to be fair.
    Zuben, i take your point re: overengineering stuff where there is no need. Very valid. But, compared to the rest of the rover which is working 100%, the weak tyres are seriously out of line with everything else. This didnt even come up with spirit and opportunity, although the wheel motors did throw a wobbler on spirit. The tyres were a non issue. (I know its a heavier rover but still.)
    These lads know their stuff (skycrane, anyone? Bonkers!!)so it does strike me as odd that the tyres could be so under-engineered.

    In any case shes motoring on towards the hills and i cannot wait for the climb! I'm really looking forward to the views from up the hill with the valley dust in a defined layer below. Well maybe not but thats whats in my head!


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    #1118
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    shedweller wrote: »
    They are getting fairly ropey to be fair.
    Zuben, i take your point re: overengineering stuff where there is no need. Very valid. But, compared to the rest of the rover which is working 100%, the weak tyres are seriously out of line with everything else. This didnt even come up with spirit and opportunity, although the wheel motors did throw a wobbler on spirit. The tyres were a non issue. (I know its a heavier rover but still.)
    These lads know their stuff (skycrane, anyone? Bonkers!!)so it does strike me as odd that the tyres could be so under-engineered.

    In any case shes motoring on towards the hills and i cannot wait for the climb! I'm really looking forward to the views from up the hill with the valley dust in a defined layer below. Well maybe not but thats whats in my head!

    In fairness, each wheel needs to be able to bear most of the weight of the entire vehicle and, if you just used normal wheels they'd be pretty heavy. The Curiosity wheels look like you could lift them with one finger, I'd say they were pretty heavily engineered and they just failed to think of the scenario that has lead to the damage.


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    #1119
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    IThe Curiosity wheels look like you could lift them with one finger, I'd say they were pretty heavily engineered and they just failed to think of the scenario that has lead to the damage.

    I think they did have to modify course to drive on sand to prevent damage, so I think the wheels probably are too fragile.

    But featherweight wheels may have allowed extra weight allowing some other component to last longer, which would otherwise have failed already. There are always trade-offs.


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    #1120
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    I think they did have to modify course to drive on sand to prevent damage, so I think the wheels probably are too fragile.

    But featherweight wheels may have allowed extra weight allowing some other component to last longer, which would otherwise have failed already. There are always trade-offs.

    They're too fragile for sure, but due to unforeseen circumstances rather than under engineering, in my opinion.


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    #1121
    thecommander
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭thecommander


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    The Curiosity wheels look like you could lift them with one finger,

    They're heavy enough. Cant remember exactly how heavy, but 2 hands heavy when lifted.


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    #1122
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    thecommander wrote: »
    They're heavy enough. Cant remember exactly how heavy, but 2 hands heavy when lifted.
    That adds up, to be fair. Multiplied by six, any extra thickness would add a lot of grams! Still sucks though!


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    #1123
    Rucking_Fetard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Rucking_Fetard


    12 memory resets this month means it's format time.
    An increasing frequency of computer resets on NASA's Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity has prompted the rover team to make plans to reformat the rover's flash memory.

    The resets, including a dozen this month, interfere with the rover's planned science activities, even though recovery from each incident is completed within a day or two.

    Flash memory retains data even when power is off. It is the type used for storing photos and songs on smart phones or digital cameras, among many other uses. Individual cells within a flash memory sector can wear out from repeated use. Reformatting clears the memory while identifying bad cells and flagging them to be avoided.

    "Worn-out cells in the flash memory are the leading suspect in causing these resets," said John Callas of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California, project manager for NASA's Mars Exploration Rover Project. "The flash reformatting is a low-risk process, as critical sequences and flight software are stored elsewhere in other non-volatile memory on the rover."

    The project landed twin rovers Spirit and Opportunity on Mars in early 2004 to begin missions planned to last only three months. Spirit worked for six years, and Opportunity is still active. Findings about ancient wet environments on Mars have come from both rovers.

    The project reformatted the flash memory on Spirit five years ago to stop a series of amnesia events Spirit had been experiencing. The reformatting planned for early next month will be the first for Opportunity. Even after the rover has been active for more than a decade and is currently about 125 million miles (about 200 million kilometers) from JPL, the rover team can still perform this type of upkeep.

    Preparations include downloading to Earth all useful data remaining in the flash memory and switching the rover to an operating mode that does not use flash memory. Also, the team is restructuring the rover's communication sessions to use a slower data rate, which may add resilience in case of a reset during these preparations.

    The Mars Exploration Rover Project is one element of NASA's ongoing and future Mars missions preparing for a human mission to the planet in the 2030s. JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology, manages the project for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington.

    http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2014-292

    It'll be in bits when we get up there.

    :P:P


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    #1124
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    shedweller wrote: »
    That adds up, to be fair. Multiplied by six, any extra thickness would add a lot of grams! Still sucks though!
    I'm still irked by the two 75Kg and six 25Kg tungsten weights used in the descent.

    forget grams , they took 300Kg of inert ballast to Mars

    they could have at lest made them into penetrators and put sensors on them or drop seismographs early


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    #1125
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    I'm still irked by the two 75Kg and six 25Kg tungsten weights used in the descent.

    forget grams , they took 300Kg of inert ballast to Mars

    they could have at lest made them into penetrators and put sensors on them or drop seismographs early
    Aww man that annoyed me no end!! Even if they didnt work it wouldnt have mattered. They could have tried out a plane or balloon even!
    That said, the extra weight on the wheels would then be loading up on the skycrane instead.
    Will they put thicker tyres on the next rover, now that they know the thin ones are too light?


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    #1126
    Rucking_Fetard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Rucking_Fetard


    Mars Panorama Shows Off Rocks, Mountains and Curiosity Rover


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    #1127
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    superb ! good shots of the wheels too.


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    #1128
    mickmackey1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭mickmackey1


    Reviewers say Curiosity rover 'lacks scientific focus' :eek:

    http://www.astronomynow.com/news/n1409/04seniorreview/#.VBC6VxZDpaZ

    An independent panel of scientists slammed the $2.5 billion Curiosity Mars rover's management team in a report released Wednesday, saying the mission's plan "lacked scientific focus and detail."

    The review board accused the rover's ground team of inadequately using the rover for science and ranked Curiosity's scientific merit near the bottom of a list of missions under consideration for extensions.

    The biennial senior review issues recommendations to NASA on whether the agency should grant funding to continue operating probes beyond their primary missions. The missions up for extensions this year were Curiosity, the Cassini spacecraft orbiting Saturn, the Opportunity Mars rover, the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, the Mars Odyssey probe, and U.S. contributions to the European-led Mars Express orbiter at the red planet.

    NASA awarded two-year extensions to all of the missions except Cassini, which was promised three years of funding until it is scheduled for a controlled crash into Saturn in 2017.

    "The senior review committee came back and said unequivocally that these are all extremely important missions," said Jim Green, director of NASA's planetary science division. "They really are a big bang for a buck because they're in place and making great measurements, and we don't have to launch them. They're really cost-effective for the American people."

    But Curiosity, one of NASA's most recognizable science missions, was ranked near the bottom of the senior review report's ratings. Cassini's proposal for a mission extension received the best grade from the senior review.

    The 15-person senior review was chaired by Clive Neal, a professor in engineering and Earth sciences from the University of Notre Dame.

    In a letter to Green, Neal wrote that the review board found holes in the proposal submitted by Curiosity rover scientists, saying that the senior review found the rover's mission plan "lacked scientific focus and detail."

    Neal wrote that the panel was surprised by the weakness of the Curiosity extended mission proposal.

    "The proposal lacked specific scientific questions to be answered, testable hypotheses, and proposed measurements and assessment of uncertainties and limitations," Neal wrote.

    According to the letter, Curiosity's project scientist was not present during the board's meetings to answer questions about the mission in person.

    "This left the panel with the impression that the team felt they were too big to fail and that simply having someone show up would suffice," Neal wrote. "The panel strongly urges NASA [Headquarters] to get the Curiosity team focused on maximizing high-quality science that justifies the capabilities of and capital investment in Curiosity."

    Curiosity received about $60 million for operations in 2014, making it the most costly operating planetary science mission along with Cassini.

    The report charged Curiosity's science team of inadequately utilizing the rover's scientific capabilities, such as the ability to detect life-supporting minerals in Martian soil.

    The two-year mission plan submitted by Curiosity scientists called for the rover to collect eight rock samples with its drill for delivery into the craft's internal scientific laboratory, a miniaturized suite of spectrometers and chemistry instruments to measure the rock powder's make-up.

    "The panel viewed this as a poor science return for such a large investment in a flagship mission," Neal wrote.

    In the board's findings, the review scientists wrote that Curiosity's science team did not detail how the rover's cameras would identify rock targets for close-up scrutiny.

    Since it landed Aug. 6, 2012, Curiosity has logged more than 8 kilometers, or 5 miles, driving across the floor of Gale Crater, a 96-mile-wide impact basin.

    Curiosity is driving toward Mount Sharp, a three-mile-high peak thought to harbor clays and sulfates pointing to the red planet's ancient past. Officials expect the rover to arrive at the base of the mountain before the end of the year.

    Scientists say the clays formed in the presence of water, making the deposits ripe for investigations focusing on probing the red planet's potential for hosting primitive life when Mars was warmer and wetter.

    Balancing the rover's drives with periodic stops for science, a question often discussed within Curiosity's own science team, was also identified as a key issue by the review board. The push-pull dilemma of whether to explore a variety of geologic formations or thoroughly analyze fewer regions is at the crux of the debate.

    "The panel is deeply concerned that observations in the clays, which may be more relevant to the habitability question, could be cut short because traverse distance will take precedence over scientific analyses," Neal wrote.

    Curiosity's prime mission lasted one Martian year, a milestone reached in late June. NASA needed to give approval for the rover to continue operating beyond this month.

    "It was unclear from both the proposal and presentation that the prime mission science goals had been met," Neal wrote. "In fact, it was unclear what exactly these were."

    Bill Knopf, NASA's lead program executive for operating planetary science missions, told a NASA advisory committee Wednesday that the space agency agreed that Curiosity's management team should focus more on scientific activities.

    NASA asked Curiosity mission officials at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory to come up with a new plan that prioritizes in-depth geologic research and analytical sampling, such as the drilling of rocks, according to Knopf.


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    #1129
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Rucking fetards quote:

    The two-year mission plan submitted by Curiosity scientists called for the rover to collect eight rock samples with its drill for delivery into the craft's internal scientific laboratory, a miniaturized suite of spectrometers and chemistry instruments to measure the rock powder's make-up.

    I'd say thats a minimum. Yes it looks bad but the scientists figured they would get good data from eight drillings. Anything more would be a bonus. To a bean counter that would look like a poor return on investment.
    I say bean counters should feck off back to the caves they belong. Some of us just want to explore and to hell with the cost.
    Fecking morons. Putting it lightly.


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    #1130
    shanered
    Registered Users Posts: 1,117 ✭✭✭shanered


    It does seem like the curiosity team need to pull up their socks and start getting hard scientific data.

    Just to ask, how many drill have already taken place and what were the results of these drill (e.g. chemical make up of samples tested etc....)

    For some reason this report doesn't surprise me, I feel I have learnt very little other than the stunning pictures sent back from the curiosity rover.


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    #1131
    Rucking_Fetard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Rucking_Fetard


    o/

    It's reached the base of Mt Sharp.

    It's heading for Pahrump Hill to look for a rock to drill, could take two weeks.

    $60Mil to run Curiosity in 2015. Jaysus.


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    #1132
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Rucking_Fetard wrote: »
    $60Mil to run Curiosity in 2015. Jaysus.
    If only they could use solar power and make it semi-autonomous.


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    #1133
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    If only they could use solar power and make it semi-autonomous.
    You jest, surely?


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    #1134
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Nice shiny new panorama.
    Aint she a beauty!
    :)
    MSLpanoramasept2014copy_zps38507da3.jpg


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    #1135
    Rucking_Fetard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Rucking_Fetard


    murrax wrote: »
    Seeing these amazing pics of rocks on Mars sure makes me pay a lot more attention to rocks and rock formations here on earth.
    I guess the Maven orbiter mission due to launch in a couple of weeks will tell us a lot more about what happened to Mars' atmosphere and combine that with findings from the Insight lander in a couple of years or so may confirm or refute what they seem to suspect what happened to it and when...
    Mission operators working from NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center are undergoing final adjustments for orbital insertion of the Mars Atmosphere and Volatile EvolutioN (MAVEN) spacecraft, due to take place September 21. Achieving a stable orbit around the Red Planet would be the culmination of a 10-month voyage, during which the robotic explorer traveled 442 million miles (711 million km) after having ridden into space in November 2013 atop an Atlas V rocket.

    NASA's MAVEN spacecraft prepares for orbital insertion


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    #1136
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Sure is getting busy up there!


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    #1137
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Seems NASA was listening to us!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OThhRvvIRew


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    #1138
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Drilling!
    0756MH0004220000204604R00_DXXX-br2.jpg
    And this is APXS doing its thing:
    FRB_464607046EDR_F0421020FHAZ00341M_-br2.jpg


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    #1139
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,075 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    shedweller wrote: »
    Rucking fetards quote:

    The two-year mission plan submitted by Curiosity scientists called for the rover to collect eight rock samples with its drill for delivery into the craft's internal scientific laboratory, a miniaturized suite of spectrometers and chemistry instruments to measure the rock powder's make-up.

    I'd say thats a minimum. Yes it looks bad but the scientists figured they would get good data from eight drillings. Anything more would be a bonus. To a bean counter that would look like a poor return on investment.
    I say bean counters should feck off back to the caves they belong. Some of us just want to explore and to hell with the cost.
    Fecking morons. Putting it lightly.

    The senior review panel are not bean counters. They are planetary scientists. Their opinion matters. Exploring at any cost is not viable. If this review forces the Curiosity team to work hard and produce more results then that is a positive. The Curiosity team should take a leaf out of the Cassini teams book. Cassini is a 20 year old spacecraft and it is still producing masses of new and exciting data. And for its extended mission they are doing even more new science. Curiosity is very capable but the science team need to push it more and deliver on the $2.5bn investment.


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    #1140
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    Shedweller is the white stuff from a vein ? or is it a trick of the light ?


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    #1141
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Mountainsandh wrote: »
    Shedweller is the white stuff from a vein ? or is it a trick of the light ?
    Having drilled a few holes in various, eh, things i do think it is light that is doing that. Take whats in the hole for example. The bright area on the sidewall of the hole continues into the drilled loose material at the bottom. It is highly unlikely that bright material would come to rest so perfectly in line with a vein of bright (undrilled) material still in the sidewall of the hole.
    But the bright area to the left does make me think it could actually be bright material.
    More pics needed!


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