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XtraVision refuse to Sell to Xbox Ones without purchase of an additional game

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  • 24-11-2013 11:20am
    #1
    ThirdMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭


    Hi. There's a thread covering this topic in the Games forum. Basically, Xtra-Vision are refusing to sell pre-ordered consoles unless you purchase an additional controller or game, even if you have paid for the console in full. Something about this doesn't sound right. Surely the pre-order agreement (and payment) constitutes a contract? Therefore this amounts to a unilateral change of the terms?


    Note: I have posted a link to this thread for the readers of the Games forum, but I am not asking for legal advice. I just want to find out what the law is in this area. Thanks.


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    #2
    r3nu4l
    Registered Users Posts: 17,399 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    I'm not an XBox user but the legal aspects of this interest me so I'm subscribing to this thread :)


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    #3
    ThirdMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭ThirdMan


    The current line of argument seems to be that it's a Microsoft policy that Xtra-Vision have no control over. If that's the case shouldn't Xtra-Vision have made that clear from the outset?


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    #4
    NotorietyH
    Registered Users Posts: 2,509 ✭✭✭NotorietyH


    It seems that they're just saying it's Microsoft directed as an excuse, which doesn't appear to be the case. They have the same thing planned for the PS4. It would seem odd, as there isn't a single other store selling the Xbox one that is doing it.

    The reason they would be doing it is because the profit margins on actual consoles is tiny, and businesses make their money from games and accessories. Even for Sony and Microsoft they make little or no money on the consoles, making a loss is normal practice as they make their money on games. I think with the PS4, Sony make a loss on the console but once someone buys a game or a PS Plus subscription they make a profit. It doesn't matter to Microsoft or Sony where the game or accessory is bought though, so I don't see why they would make specific stores force games and accessories on customers. They assume you're going to buy them anyway. This is just Xtravision trying to avoid the backlash by blaming Microsoft. Sony and Microsoft might encourage them to offer games and accessories bundled, but I doubt they'd go so far as to force customers to do it because at they end of the day they want you to get the console. The reason they sell they at a loss is to get the install base as big as possible as quickly as possible.


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    #5
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    According to some sources Microsoft and Sony have nothing to do with this at all ,doesn't make sense they push it to just two retailers
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #6
    chops018
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭chops018


    Of course they can't If you 'agreed' to buy the console for an 'x' amount, and they accepted, and you provided consideration, then they can't go back on this.

    To be honest, I don't know what they are at doing this to people what have pre-ordered and have already given money. Fair enough for the people coming in and looking for Xbox one's off the shelf, they can tell them they have to get 10 games with the console to buy it.


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    #7
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Congratulations on the 10,000th thread on this! I think every forum on this site now has a thread on this.

    As already stated in the Consumer issues forum. Contracts are subject to Terms and Conditions. Lets assume Xtravision's T&Cs dont cover them 15 different ways on this.

    Contracts can, and frequently are, broken. In that case damages would be assessed and are likely to be on a par with what you paid. Xtravison were returning deposits to people who didn't wish to take them up on the new offer. If you want to see if you'd get any more take them to small claims court.


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    #8
    chops018
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭chops018


    Bepolite wrote: »
    Congratulations on the 10,000th thread on this! I think every forum on this site now has a thread on this.

    As already stated in the Consumer issues forum. Contracts are subject to Terms and Conditions. Lets assume Xtravision's T&Cs dont cover them 15 different ways on this.

    Contracts can, and frequently are, broken. In that case damages would be assessed and are likely to be on a par with what you paid. Xtravison were returning deposits to people who didn't wish to take them up on the new offer. If you want to see if you'd get any more take them to small claims court.

    I could be wrong, T and C's are usually solid, but, not a chance if there was an offer, acceptance and consideration.... surely?


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    #9
    Xenji
    Registered Users Posts: 11,505 ✭✭✭✭Xenji


    Gatling wrote: »
    According to some sources Microsoft and Sony have nothing to do with this at all ,doesn't make sense they push it to just two retailers

    They don't, had two friends burned by this and both said that was the line they were told to feed customers, but it was a decision that came from head office.


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    #10
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    chops018 wrote: »
    I could be wrong, T and C's are usually solid, but, not a chance if there was an offer, acceptance and consideration.... surely?

    I suspect the T&C's probably have some caveat about sales not being final until delivery etc. even if they don't I suspect damages for breach of contract would be minor at best and that only a very small number of people, if anyone, would take it to court.

    This has been happening on console launches and restricted stock since Aristotle bought his first tablet I'm not sure why it's coming as such a surprise to people.


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    #11
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    It may not be worth getting a solicitor involved for the amount of money involved for a single XBox One.

    So, there's the Small Claims Court. The small claims registrar would decide.

    One small claim is not going upset Xtra Vision. But a thousand of them may.


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    #12
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    The Mustard wrote: »
    It may not be worth getting a solicitor involved for the amount of money involved for a single XBox One.

    So, there's the Small Claims Court. The small claims registrar would decide.

    One small claim is not going upset Xtra Vision. But a thousand of them may.

    Well this is why businesses chance their arm, because they know that nobody will forward a summons to them. Why most Irish folk think it is too much hassle to defend their rights as a consumer in this country I will never understand. The usual saying is...Ah sure it's a waste of time, sure what can be done, no point in it, I'll just forget it and that will be the end of it.

    Folk should wake up and put the full weight of consumer law to these dodgy businesses, take them to the courts, and they will think twice about dodgy practices in future, but sit back and do nothing ? then they will do the same.


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    #13
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    zenno wrote: »
    Well this is why businesses chance their arm, because they know that nobody will forward a summons to them. Why most Irish folk think it is too much hassle to defend their rights as a consumer in this country I will never understand. The usual saying is...Ah sure it's a waste of time, sure what can be done, no point in it, I'll just forget it and that will be the end of it.

    Folk should wake up and put the full weight of consumer law to these dodgy businesses, take them to the courts, and they will think twice about dodgy practices in future, but sit back and do nothing ? then they will do the same.

    The full weight is likely to be a refund of the amount paid for the deposit, which they are giving back in all instances anyway.

    Can someone please let me know what all the fuss is about? I'm sure there's maybe 1% of genuine cases where little Johnny had saved only enough for the manufacturers bundle but in all seriousness who wasn't going to buy an extra controller for the thing anyway?


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    #14
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    Bepolite wrote: »
    The full weight is likely to be a refund of the amount paid for the deposit, which they are giving back in all instances anyway.

    Can someone please let me know what all the fuss is about? I'm sure there's maybe 1% of genuine cases where little Johnny had saved only enough for the manufacturers bundle but in all seriousness who wasn't going to buy an extra controller for the thing anyway?

    You just don't seem to understand the basic setting of this particular problem do you. You tried this on the other thread. Goodbye.


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    #15
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    zenno wrote: »
    You just don't seem to understand the basic setting of this particular problem do you. You tried this on the other thread. Goodbye.

    Given I worked in Games retail for ten years and did every console launch from the PS2 slim to the various DSs I understand it perfectly. I just don't think you like people disagreeing with your little pocket of moral outrage. Thats fine I didn't hijack the thread in the Games forums, but if you're going to come here I'm afraid there is going to be a bit of a reality check and logical discussions of all sides.

    N00b :P


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    #16
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    I don't know what the t&c's of the preorder was but I'd be looking at sections 41/43 of the consumer protection act, for criminal rather than civil satisfaction


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    #17
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    I don't know what the t&c's of the preorder was but I'd be looking at sections 41/43 of the consumer protection act, for criminal rather than civil satisfaction

    Interesting. People could complain to the Consumer Protection Agency.


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    #18
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Probably falls under Section 53 as well.


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    #19
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,719 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    I'd be looking at unfair terms in consumer contacts tbh.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1995/en/si/0027.html


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    #20
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    I'd be looking at unfair terms in consumer contacts tbh.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1995/en/si/0027.html

    Would they apply though given Xtravision were trying to breach the contract? I'm unclear as to what remedy they would provide, given what people wanted was the item sans additional item.


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    #21
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,719 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Bepolite wrote: »
    Would they apply though given Xtravision were trying to breach the contract? I'm unclear as to what remedy they would provide, given what people wanted was the item sans additional item.
    I'm not sure we're on the same page and that's probably due to my failing to reply properly.

    What I think is that the company is standing over a totally unlawful position. I cannot think of a single principle of contracts that justifies what they are trying to do.

    I'm open for correction but the whole thing is ludicrous froma legal perspective.


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    #22
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    I'm not sure we're on the same page and that's probably due to my failing to reply properly.

    What I think is that the company is standing over a totally unlawful position. I cannot think of a single principle of contracts that justifies what they are trying to do.

    I'm not agreeing with what they're doing, however I can see it from the other side. It's not really relevant to the legal discussion so it can be left to one side. From the point of view of contracts simpliciter surely its a basic tenant of contract law that you can breach a contract and the remedy is damages? I realise that consumer contracts are afforded greater protection however.

    I'm not sure how unfair contract terms would apply given the contract has been (wrongly of course) breached. I am of course open to correction. I think Carraway has hit the nail on the head that the CPA is the correct way to go about trying to get satisfaction.

    I'm sorry that I may come across as rather cynical about all of this but what the publishers are going to get up to after all the bricks and mortar stores are gone puts this in perspective for me. Xtravision / HMW are purely trading on the back of this console launch and once they've got as much out of it as they can they will be gone again. I'll give Gamestop a few more years but I don;t expect they'll do another generation of launches. This will eventually be played out in a anti-trust case that will make the Microsoft cases look like small potatoes.


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    #23
    ThirdMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭ThirdMan


    Bepolite wrote: »
    Can someone please let me know what all the fuss is about? I'm sure there's maybe 1% of genuine cases where little Johnny had saved only enough for the manufacturers bundle but in all seriousness who wasn't going to buy an extra controller for the thing anyway?

    The problem is that once again a million pound company has put the boot in on the Irish consumer. It doesn't matter whether it's little Johnny or anyone else. If I've handed over 500 quid for a day one console, I should be entitled to it. I shouldn't be strong-armed into forking out a further 70. The fact that I might wish to pick up a second controller or game at a later state is irrelevant. An agreement was in place between me and the retailer, and they've changed the terms of that agreement because it suits their bottom line. Put aside your smug little attitude and ask yourself whether that's acceptable.


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    #24
    pillphil
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭pillphil


    What would have happened if a group of people refused xboxs without an extra game just walked around the counter and took them?
    Is that theft?


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    #25
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    ThirdMan wrote: »
    The problem is that once again a million pound company has put the boot in on the Irish consumer. It doesn't matter whether it's little Johnny or anyone else. If I've handed over 500 quid for a day one console, I should be entitled to it. I shouldn't be strong-armed into forking out a further 70. The fact that I might wish to pick up a second controller or game at a later state is irrelevant. An agreement was in place between me and the retailer, and they've changed the terms of that agreement because it suits their bottom line. Put aside your smug little attitude and ask yourself whether that's acceptable.

    I'd ask you to consider whether you want there to be bricks and mortar stores in the future? The fact is they can't go through each customer on launch asking would you like this, would you like that. They're going to have upwards of 100 people to serve and a need, not a desire, to make a profit on the machines. I can guarantee you I know exactly what's happened as regard the communication from their Head Office as well. It will have been filtered down to the point that store management will have essentially been told, want a job next week - sell x number of accessories.

    Now if you'd put your faux sense of moral outrage aside for a sec and ask yourself whether it's worth all this fuss. A mass shooting in the states we get a thread in after hours, this we've got threads in Games, Consumer Issues, Legal discussion and probably half a dozen other places.

    Now do I find it acceptable no not really, am I surprised, no to that as well. I can however divorce myself from the emotion of it which is something you don't seem to be able to do. I still don't understand what all the fuss is about. If you don't like it don't shop there again, you won't have a choice in that in a few months anyway - it will be gone.

    I reiterate I don't find this sort of business practice acceptable, but it warrants a proportionate response. The mad thing is in three weeks 90% of the people that said never again will be back in there. If people actually did stop shopping somewhere that gave crap service, we'd actually start to develop a decent service culture in this country.

    Okay - my bad for dragging it off topic by asking what the fuss was about. I'm a gamer myself so I know how invested kids (of all ages) get. Can we get back to a legal discussion?


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    #26
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    pillphil wrote: »
    What would have happened if a group of people refused xboxs without an extra game just walked around the counter and took them?
    Is that theft?

    No, there are various elements to theft and one is acting dishonestly. The issue would be if that portion was over come it would be a burglary and not a theft with more severe penalties.


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    #27
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    pillphil wrote: »
    What would have happened if a group of people refused xboxs without an extra game just walked around the counter and took them?
    Is that theft?

    Just because somebody has paid for an XBox, does not mean that they own the XBox on display behind the counter.

    I imagine that it would be likely that the guards would be called to investigate theft, in that instance.


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    #28
    pillphil
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭pillphil


    I didn't think it'd be legal, I'd be damn tempted if it was me though.
    Now if you'd put your faux sense of moral outrage aside for a sec and ask yourself whether it's worth all this fuss. A mass shooting in the states we get a thread in after hours, this we've got threads in Games, Consumer Issues, Legal discussion and probably half a dozen other places.

    I dunno, a mass shooting usually ends with an arrest or a suicide. Are xtravision going to receive any punishment for this? I doubt it.
    And it's not like it doesn't belong in any of those forums. If it turns up in motors, you'll have a point.

    I'm pretty pissed off about it and it doesn't affect me in any way whatsoever.


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    #29
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    pillphil wrote: »
    I didn't think it'd be legal, I'd be damn tempted if it was me though.

    It would be ill advised but there's plenty of similar situations where people have got off. I'm just trying to increase the market for legal services :pac: Also you asked specifically about theft, which it isn't IMHO - there is going to be other issues such as trespass and probably assault on anyone trying to stop you.
    pillphil wrote: »
    I dunno, a mass shooting usually ends with an arrest or a suicide. Are xtravision going to receive and punishment for this? I doubt it.
    And it's not like it doesn't belong in any of those forums. If it turns up in motors, you'll have a point.

    Aye point taken, and it was ill advised to rattle the cage - I wish people would put things into perspective and take the punishment into their own hands. Boycott - you don't even need to forgo the console - buy it, never go there again. You'll have made them about €2 on the console and €5 on the controller - that won't keep them afloat long.
    pillphil wrote: »
    I'm pretty pissed off about it and it doesn't affect me in any way whatsoever.

    You'll be even more pissed off when the only way you'll be able to get Battlefield 9 is via Origin for Xbox 2.0 and it's €99.99. But then I'm dragging this OT again sorry.


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    #30
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Bepolite wrote: »
    Given I worked in Games retail for ten years and did every console launch from the PS2 slim to the various DSs I understand it perfectly. I just don't think you like people disagreeing with your little pocket of moral outrage. Thats fine I didn't hijack the thread in the Games forums, but if you're going to come here I'm afraid there is going to be a bit of a reality check and logical discussions of all sides.

    N00b :P


    I'm sure you've worked in games retail. Maybe you worked for GAME? Maybe you noticed that they went bust in Ireland. Why? Because an increasing amount of people want to purchase their games online or digitally, that's just a fact. On the launch of the PS2 it was obvious that you were going to buy a game with it. Now it isn't, a lot of people are downloading or getting them off Amazon or even just waiting because the consoles come with free games. In the case of the Xbox One, it comes with Forza or FIFA. And if you have a PS4 you've almost certainly got access to the free games on PlayStation Plus. That's not even taking into consideration that Xtra-Vision's prices for Xbox One and PS4 games are about ten to fifteen euro more than they are online. There are loads of reasons why you wouldn't want to buy a game in Xtra-Vision. It's like buying an iPod and being told to buy a CD. Fair enough, there's no point having one without the music and a CD would definitely allow you to start up your library. But you could also go with iTunes, buy the CD in another shop, online etc. Fact is, you don't see this happening in any other sector except the gaming industry. Xtra-Vision are deliberately taking advantage of the short supply. But you are technically right, for a lot of people this DOES make absolutely no difference.


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    #31
    doublej
    Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭doublej


    Before answering the OP, can anyone tell me if the price being asked by xtravision for the additional products are the same as everywhere else?


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