Obligatory, wage-affecting performance reviews for teachers - a great idea!

Roadtrippin · 01-05-2012 08:10AM #1

Bring performance-related pay into the classroom say MPs as they target bad teachers
- Report says inferior teaching is having effect on children's long-term prospects

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137684/Bad-teachers-paid-best-say-MPs.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Finally a good idea to reform the public sector in some ways!

Thank you, UK!!!

Let's hope they go through with this - I totally agree with making public servants adhere to performance reviews and make their wage dependent on it!!!

Stalin and rugby · 01-05-2012 10:04AM

Yea it's a great idea but it will result in the poaching of good students by teachers. Would be slick if it was brought about though

partyatmygaff · 01-05-2012 12:28PM

What does this have to do with the LC?

Wouldn't it be better suited to the Teaching forum or politics?

jumpguy · 01-05-2012 02:13PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Wouldn't it be better suited to the Teaching forum or politics?

At least you're more likely to get a student response here.

I think it's a great idea, however implementing it and finding out how to monitor teacher performance would be a tricky - but not impossible.

No doubt though if the government even whispered the suggestion every teacher union in the country would be in outrage and complaining that it's no more than cost-saving for the banks and schools are impoverished and that's not helping teachers and etc etc....

Roadtrippin · 01-05-2012 02:16PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What does this have to do with the LC?

Wouldn't it be better suited to the Teaching forum or politics?

True, but I couldnt find a teaching forum...

I'm knew to this

Maybe they can help me move the thread there... Helloooo? Anyone there in the mood to move this thread to teaching or politics forum?

Stalin and rugby · 01-05-2012 02:19PM

As far as I know teachers in the Institute are paid on those terms...

spurious · 01-05-2012 02:21PM

You couldn't find a teaching forum?
I know the response it will get as this is nothing new, but I will move it there anyway.

Who should get paid more, the person who hands out photocopied notes to a class of A standard students or the person who teaches an illiterate 17 year old to read his first book?

What is a 'good' teacher?

vamos! · 01-05-2012 02:25PM

spurious wrote: »

You couldn't find a teaching forum?
I know the response it will get as this is nothing new, but I will move it there anyway.

Who should get paid more, the person who hands out photocopied notes to a class of A standard students or the person who teaches an illiterate 17 year old to read his first book?

What is a 'good' teacher?

Spurious you forgot the step-by-step instructions as to how get to the T&L forum....and the revision notes, sample answer and accompanying powerpoint. You, spurious, are worth minimum wage under this new plan!

01-05-2012 02:27PM

Paying teachers by students' performances is so incredibly stupid, it's hard to know where to start with the flaws

Roadtrippin · 01-05-2012 02:32PM

28064212 wrote: »

Paying teachers by students' performances is so incredibly stupid, it's hard to know where to start with the flaws

Not by students' perfomances but by lack of engagement on the teacher's side. I teach part-time in schools and universities and I can tell you from observing other classes that there is some really bad lazy teachers out there and they surely could do with a bit of a real-life test of their skills and work ethics.
There is some very good teachers as well. But at the same time they get the same wage as some Mary-scratching, child-hating lazy b*****ds...

I do fully support a move of making teachers go through perfomance reviews - not necessarily dependent on student pass rates but dependent on experts/principals/other teachers observing random classes and giving evaluation reports to the HEA...

In any other private job you have to do performance reviews, why not in schools and universities??? If you're a good teacher you have nothing to worry about and maybe the bad teachers will be scared into broadening their horizons and working harder!!!

gaeilgebeo · 01-05-2012 02:36PM

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Not by students' perfomances but by lack of engagement on the teacher's side. I teach part-time in schools and universities and I can tell you from observing other classes that there is some really bad lazy teachers out there and they surely could do with a bit of a real-life test of their skills and work ethics.
There is some very good teachers as well. But at the same time they get the same wage as some Mary-scratching, child-hating lazy b*****ds...

I do fully support a move of making teachers go through perfomance reviews - not necessarily dependent on student pass rates but dependent on experts/principals/other teachers observing random classes and giving evaluation reports to the HEA...

In any other private job you have to do performance reviews, why not in schools and universities??? If you're a good teacher you have nothing to worry about and maybe the bad teachers will be scared into broadening their horizons and working harder!!!

What do you teach part-time?

gaeilgebeo · 01-05-2012 02:39PM

Roadtrippin wrote: »

Bring performance-related pay into the classroom say MPs as they target bad teachers
- Report says inferior teaching is having effect on children's long-term prospects

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137684/Bad-teachers-paid-best-say-MPs.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Finally a good idea to reform the public sector in some ways!

Thank you, UK!!!

Let's hope they go through with this - I totally agree with making public servants adhere to performance reviews and make their wage dependent on it!!!

So do you propose these performance appraisals will work? A performance appraisal on a really difficult class with serious learning and behavioural difficulties is going to be the same as a performance appraisal on a class of straight A high achievers?

If I can get my really weak class through a Junior Cert exam and they receive Cs and Ds(which is an excellent achievement for them) as opposed to my colleague who had a much stronger class who got As and Bs, is my "appraisal" going to be worse than my colleagues? As on paper my results won't be as high?

How do you set the criteria for this "appraisal"?
How do you set the "targets" ?
How will "continually assessing" a teacher work?

Roadtrippin · 01-05-2012 02:39PM

spurious wrote: »

You couldn't find a teaching forum?
I know the response it will get as this is nothing new, but I will move it there anyway.

Who should get paid more, the person who hands out photocopied notes to a class of A standard students or the person who teaches an illiterate 17 year old to read his first book?

What is a 'good' teacher?

How long do you have?
I would consider myself informed enough about this issue since I teach part-time and do research on teaching standards at university level. I could give you a very long response to that... there is an endless list of things that teachers can do to become the best teachers they can be. Depending of course on the place and level they teach, and the resources they have to work with.

A good teacher - well, what do you define as a good teacher yourself?

A good teacher in my books is someone that doesn't just do minimum effort - that goes for any job really.
A good teacher likes to work with children and is a team player, likes to improve his/her teaching, likes students' feeback and works hard on preparing classes that engage learners and make them develop skills that are useful for the rest of their career paths/life.

I have taught in language schools as well in Ireland and abroad and classroom observations by the boss/colleagues were a standard practice to ensure that we knew what we were doing. Also, it is always good to hear from other teachers what you could do better. There's always room for improvement.

If people are not able to deal with performance reviews in schools, how are we even ensuring an acceptable standard of teaching???

The school inspectors hardly get around to visit each school every couple of years. We cant just assume that all teachers are doing their jobs!

Roadtrippin · 01-05-2012 02:42PM

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

What do you teach part-time?

German, Spanish, English as a foreign language, Translation,...

At school level only German and the rest at university level.

I taught in language schools many years in Ireland and abroad.

Why? Just interested?

Roadtrippin · 01-05-2012 02:45PM

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

So do you propose these performance appraisals will work? A performance appraisal on a really difficult class with serious learning and behavioural difficulties is going to be the same as a performance appraisal on a class of straight A high achievers?

If I can get my really weak class through a Junior Cert exam and they receive Cs and Ds(which is an excellent achievement for them) as opposed to my colleague who had a much stronger class who got As and Bs, is my "appraisal" going to be worse than my colleagues? As on paper my results won't be as high?

How do you set the criteria for this "appraisal"?
How do you set the "targets" ?
How will "continually assessing" a teacher work?

These are all very good questions and clearly I don't have all the answers. I'm not the HEA.
I think it is a good idea to implement regular appraisals though, for example,
like I suggested above, regular random classroom observations like you have to go through during your HDip should be standard practice as part of the appraisal.
These observations can be done by colleagues or other teachers from partner schools etc. Reports could be sent to the teacher in question first so they get a chance to improve if there is any shortcomings.

byhookorbycrook · 01-05-2012 02:49PM

I'm in learning support, how do you judge my performance?

partyatmygaff · 01-05-2012 02:54PM

Here's a simple solution. End-of-term (Based on three terms per year) teacher reviews run by the Department of Education (With minimal school involvement).

No reviews for first years.
Problem students with discipline problems (Genuine discipline problems confirmed by OTHER teachers in the school) get their review weighted at 0.25
Students who are average academically and are stagnating or decreasing in grade get their review weighted at 0.75
Students who do well academically (C2 or higher at HL) or have shown improvement (Say moving up a minimum of three grades over one exam period) have their reviews weighted at 1

Students mark their teacher's teaching ability on an arbitrary scale of 0-100 and a weighted mean is found. If the teacher averages less than 60% in two consecutive terms or has suffered a decrease of 20% or more they should be subjected to a series of three random inspections over the next term with no forewarning.

If a teacher has been flagged for inspection, the inspector marks the teacher on each of the three occasions as if the teacher was still in training. If the inspector finds that the teacher is incompetent they're immediately docked 5%. If they improve over the next term, they're restored to full pay. If they do not show any significant improvement over the following three terms, they're subjected to another three random inspections in the next term. If the inspector finds no improvement again, they're docked 15% instead of 5%. The cycle goes 5% - 15% - 20% - 25% - Warning/Probation - Termination and requirement to resit PGDE/H.Dip.

So in essence... a student review (With weightings to keep things somewhat fair for the teacher) that flags teachers for random inspection.

ntlbell · 01-05-2012 02:55PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I'm in learning support, how do you judge my performance?

How do you judge your own performance?

How do you personally know when you're doing a good job?

byhookorbycrook · 01-05-2012 03:09PM

I judge my own performance in terms of objectives reached and the results of many diagnostic tests I use, in how the children grow in confidence and through feedback from the children themselves,class teachers,inspectors and parents.

vamos! · 01-05-2012 03:12PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I'm in learning support, how do you judge my performance?

How would you judge my 5th year German class? I have a multi-level class of 29, with abilities ranging from resource English to wanting to study German at Uni. The main issue in my class is Thuggy McThuggerson. He doesn't want to be there but the school will not allow him drop German. He hates German and has yet to purchase the textbook or a copy. I supply him with a pen and on the days he decides not to use it as a weapon he draws charming swastikas on the desks. His mother Mrs I Know My Rights And All Yous Teachers Are All The Same Inanyways supports her son. German is for Nazis and saps. I have no choice but to work with either Higher Level or Ordinary Level some days, as they are essentially two courses. Some of my well behaved students work away by themselves guided by notes I spend hours creating, as they are essentially replacing the teacher while I work with the other group. Should I be paid on the basis of the notes I produce? Or the classroom situation? I am working with OL, the HL students are trying to work but Thuggy is frogmarching across the room. Should I have planned for that? Built it into my lesson plan?

The school down the road has two German teachers and two classes. HL and OL are not taught in the same room. The teacher there has more class contact time and students are allowed to drop German in LC if they wish. The lower ability students take this option. This teacher does not need to type up as many notes as me, as she can work with the class as a whole. Should she be paid less than me because her folder is smaller?

Chancer is also in my class. He doesn't love German but used to work. Lately he has started to cause havoc and has stopped doing anything productive in my class. He is very good in Geography, English and Maths. He does excellent work for those teachers... should they be paid more than me?? (Thuggy is not in those classes and Chancer works best when separated from him. They have to do German toghether as their is only one class)

I forgot to mention that I haven't seen Asbo Jr since Easter... He comes and goes but will probably sit the exam for the craic. Is it my fault if he fails. He doesn't really do mornings, or Mondays or Fridays but does show hios face the occasional Thursday afternoon.

How on earth do you monitor productivity? Is it notes, results, ability to deal with the Thuggy's of the world?

**I no longer teach this class, but they exist

Dave0301 · 01-05-2012 03:12PM

In theory yes it's a great idea, in practice it could never work!

Does a teacher who gets all As in a higher level class get paid more than the teacher who gets all As in foundation level class with kids who have behavior and learning difficulties? Or vice versa?

What about schools that are deemed to achieve more academically? Should teachers there earn more because of that? More than teachers in a DEIS school that may not achieve high grades but who face a different set of challenges?

I'm all for more stringent forms of assessment for teachers within the system, as would I say most teachers are. However relating it to their livelihood when there are so so many variables to account for is not the way to do it!

seriouslysweet · 01-05-2012 03:38PM

Such a stupid idea, some of the best teachers I know teach really weak classes.

byhookorbycrook · 01-05-2012 03:38PM

Payment by results has already been tried and has been proven to be a huge failure. I could coach all of my groups in the Drumcondra tests all year and perhaps there'd be a marked improvement in the test scores, but this does not mean a big improvement in numeracy or literacy, it means they can do the qs in only one form of testing.

jumpguy · 01-05-2012 03:38PM

There would be major flaws in a lot of assessments. Partyatmygaff's method seems the most plausible but suffers in that teachers who know students will give them bad feedback could just note them as lacking discipline.

I don't see why the principal can't do this job. What can't the principle be the equivalent of a manager? He'd know the classes, he'd know the teachers better than any inspector. If principals could fire and hire like real bosses, with their decisions open to appeal and etc then I think there would be real improvement. The principals and schools could be inspected on occasion by an impartial supervisor, with the principal being quizzed on problems found in the school and on problems with teacher performance.

ntlbell · 01-05-2012 03:43PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I judge my own performance in terms of objectives reached and the results of many diagnostic tests I use, in how the children grow in confidence and through feedback from the children themselves,class teachers,inspectors and parents.

Seems like you answered your own question then.

performance goals with 360 reviews.

Another problem solved.

partyatmygaff · 01-05-2012 03:45PM

jumpguy wrote: »

There would be major flaws in a lot of assessments. Partyatmygaff's method seems the most plausible but suffers in that teachers who know students will give them bad feedback could just note them as lacking discipline.

That's why I said discipline problems have to be independently confirmed by other teachers in the school before the 0.25 weighting applies.

If my suggested system was ever implemented it would be managed mainly by the principal and the Department of Education. Ideally, there would be little to no teacher involvement or teacher-student contact in the review process to keep things impartial.

byhookorbycrook · 01-05-2012 04:04PM

ntlbell wrote: »

Seems like you answered your own question then.

performance goals with 360 reviews.

Another problem solved.

Not really, I could set objectives that I know the child has already reached if I think it is going to impact on my salary.I could make sure that I get the learning support children I know to be more academic. I could refuse to take children without home support and so on.

Roadtrippin · 01-05-2012 04:06PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I judge my own performance in terms of objectives reached and the results of many diagnostic tests I use, in how the children grow in confidence and through feedback from the children themselves,class teachers,inspectors and parents.

Well, that pretty much covers it then, doesn't it?

Just to make it clear again - I am not saying that all teachers are doing something wrong. I am a teacher myself so who am I to judge.

I am merely saying that more reviews and feedback on a regular basis can only be a good thing.

Roadtrippin · 01-05-2012 04:07PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Not really, I could set objectives that I know the child has already reached if I think it is going to impact on my salary.I could make sure that I get the learning support children I know to be more academic. I could refuse to take children without home support and so on.

That is a good point - well then the objectives need to be set by you and confirmed by a second teacher that knows the student, IMHO.

Gurgle · 01-05-2012 04:10PM

seriouslysweet wrote: »

Such a stupid idea, some of the best teachers I know teach really weak classes.

That's where they're needed most.

looksee · 01-05-2012 04:14PM

I think teacher assessment is a good idea but I think involving the students in assessing teachers would be very bad for discipline in the long run. I can just imagine lippy louise trying to use 'I'll give you a bad report!' as a smart remark in class. It does not matter that she has been weighted out of the equation, just giving her the ammunition is a bad idea.

Obligatory, wage-affecting performance reviews for teachers - a great idea!

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