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Electric Cars

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  • 16-02-2012 11:25am
    #1
    AlanD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭


    I'm a motor head, a piston head, I have oil in my veins, I grew up in the motor industry and love my cars more than anything. So, I've never seen the point in the electric car. Mostly because they were ugly beasts and there was no available infrastructure.

    That is, until now.

    My life circumstances are now much different than they were years ago at the height of my car-love. I'm married, with 2 kids going to school/creche. So I'm your typical family with 2 cars. Oh, plus I work from home.

    So my typical day in a car is drive the kids to creche/school and maybe the odd errand. But that's it. I drive maybe 10km a day.

    My wife drives to work and every few weekends we drive to the grandparents houses, or I might have to do a spin across the country because of work. So we always have a need for a proper car.

    But now that there are some viable electric cars out there, they've caught my eye. If only from the point of view of running costs for the runabout car.

    What are people's thoughts on the likes of the Leaf and the Fluence z.e.? With the ESB installing a free charging point to your house (first 2000 homes), having a car that costs about 2 euro to do about 100/150 miles is pretty tempting. The equivalent diesel might cost around 10/12 euro for similar mileage.

    I like the Leaf on the inside cos it's a driving iPhone. But think it looks horrible on the outside. I like the Fluence cos it looks normal, but the battery leasing scheme puts me off.

    Both are dear to buy initially, but I'm not focusing on that. I could buy a nice '04 BMW 645CI for a third of the cost and have a lot of fun with it, but petrol would be a huge running cost. So in terms of having a very cheap to run, if you were already in the market to spend over 25K for a car, an electric car is now making sense.

    We could even drive it to our grandparents house and use their electricity to charge it up!


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    #2
    Anan1
    Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    Cost aside I think any self-respecting motorhead should love the idea of EV, for exactly the same reasons that we'd prefer a V12 to a straight 4.


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    #3
    AlanD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭AlanD


    Instant 100% torque is a nice bonus. But, it's not my priority these days. I drive with the kids most of the time, so as long as it moves, I'm happy.

    Anyone driven one of these yet?


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    #4
    fg10291
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭fg10291


    Equivelant diesel costing 10/12 euro to do similar mileage?????

    Seriously?

    A diesel fluence or any other modern similar sized diesel would do that on approx €3/4 of fuel (approx 2/2.5 litres)

    Beware that charging elecric vehicles during the day can be expensive

    I like the fluence ze. I think its a clever car and while I love cars and consider myself a petrolhead i would love an electric car but my current usage doesnt lend itself to 1.

    My biggest concern is a safety one.

    A lot of battery means a lot of acid in the event of an accident. I don't know if manufacturers have addressed that


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    #5
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Looks pretty much like most recent hatches imo. I'd get one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvVWsDlhJzQ


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    #6
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,284 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    The Fluence has a disappointing EuroNCAP score for a modern car. Also the extended boot looks ugly and have you seen how small and poorly shaped it is thanks to the batteries. I'm not sure if the rear seats fold down either.

    My theory on the disappointing EuroNCAP performance is that the car's structure was designed to dissipate the energy of a 1300 kg standard Fluence crashing rather than that of a 1600 kg electric Fluence.

    Even though I don't like the looks or price I think the Leaf is better as it seems to have been designed from the start as a electric car.


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    #7
    Anan1
    Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    AlanD wrote: »
    Instant 100% torque is a nice bonus. But, it's not my priority these days. I drive with the kids most of the time, so as long as it moves, I'm happy.
    It's more the refinement that attracts me. EV makes the whole idea of explosions under the bonnet seem pretty crude, to me at least.


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    #8
    h3000
    Registered Users Posts: 6,467 ✭✭✭h3000


    fg10291 wrote: »
    Equivelant diesel costing 10/12 euro to do similar mileage?????

    Seriously?

    A diesel fluence or any other modern similar sized diesel would do that on approx €3/4 of fuel (approx 2/2.5 litres)

    You might want to do your maths again

    At 5.5L/100km (51mpg) you are talking about €8.50ish to do 100km.

    0118 999 881 999 119 725 3



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    #9
    AlanD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭AlanD


    fg10291 wrote: »
    Equivelant diesel costing 10/12 euro to do similar mileage?????

    Seriously?

    A diesel fluence or any other modern similar sized diesel would do that on approx €3/4 of fuel (approx 2/2.5 litres)

    Beware that charging elecric vehicles during the day can be expensive

    I like the fluence ze. I think its a clever car and while I love cars and consider myself a petrolhead i would love an electric car but my current usage doesnt lend itself to 1.

    My biggest concern is a safety one.

    A lot of battery means a lot of acid in the event of an accident. I don't know if manufacturers have addressed that

    I based that figure on my own Peugeot 607 2.2 diesel that does 38 mpg around town, so at 1.50 a litre for 150 miles.....actually, just calc'ing it again, it's even more expensive. Works out at about 27 euro. I can't remember how I worked out the 10/12 euro a gallon. Might have been thinking about a more fuel efficient 60mpg machine.

    Charging during the day will only be more expensive if you have night-saver electricity. I don't and so my electricity is the same night and day. Although I'm sure the ESB supplied high power charger will work at night cheaper.

    Safety, not really a concern. Once it passes NCAP.....


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    #10
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    Was one of the head-bangers on here saying for 5k you can convert the roof of your house into solar panels, and cover 99% of typical trips for free!?


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    #11
    AlanD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭AlanD


    pajo1981 wrote: »
    Was one of the head-bangers on here saying for 5k you can convert the roof of your house into solar panels, and cover 99% of typical trips for free!?

    5k would also pay for 375,000 miles, so free wouldn't necessarily come to mind :D


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    #12
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    I own a Nissan Leaf and last year I put some thoughts down on Leaf ownership in a post.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73691736&postcount=21

    If you wanted to ask me a question or two, I'd be happy to answer any!

    *edit*
    Since I made that post we have over 19,000 kilometers on the clock now.


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    #13
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    fg10291 wrote: »
    My biggest concern is a safety one.

    A lot of battery means a lot of acid in the event of an accident. I don't know if manufacturers have addressed that

    http://www.euroncap.com/results/nissan/leaf/2011/432.aspx

    The Leaf uses automotive Lithium batteries designed by NEC / Nissan. There is no acid.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nsb7SkrpyE&feature=player_embedded


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    #14
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    AlanD wrote: »
    5k would also pay for 375,000 miles, so free wouldn't necessarily come to mind :D

    More like 250k- and that's on today's rates.

    If e-cars take off, expect the price of off-peak electricity to rise.


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    #15
    AlanD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭AlanD


    Sesshoumaru wrote: »
    I own a Nissan Leaf and last year I put some thoughts down on Leaf ownership in a post.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73691736&postcount=21

    If you wanted to ask me a question or two, I'd be happy to answer any!

    *edit*
    Since I made that post we have over 19,000 kilometers on the clock now.

    Fascinating commentary. Thanks for posting it here.

    The running costs alone look amazing. The cost is high to buy in though and that's my problem. We wouldn't be in the market for a 30k car at all. Not in this economy. But, I reckon if we were in the market for a 20k car and if we added in the savings associated with running costs, then it could come close to being a viable offer.

    What is your current average range on the Leaf and could you leave it a few days without charging if you didn't drive much?


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    #16
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    pajo1981 wrote: »
    More like 250k- and that's on today's rates.

    If e-cars take off, expect the price of off-peak electricity to rise.

    The ESB is already working on smart grid technology in collaboration with others. I've met with ESB people before and they are looking at hooking EV's into smart grids.

    The Leaf is basically a mobile energy storage device that has been designed with a maximum output of 90,000 watts. Powering your home or your neighbour's home with a few thousands watts of power is just tickling the battery pack :) Nissan have said as much themselves, since they now sell in Japan a home charger that allows you to also power your entire home from your car. The battery pack has been designed to power an 80kw electric motor along with ancillaries. Powering your home has no impact on the batteries lifespan according to Nissan.

    I suppose where I am meandering to with this post, is that owning an EV in future may entitle you to an even cheaper tariff or what you pay is offset against what you put back in during the day when your car is plugged in but you're not using it. The ESB have said as much themselves. EV's could help balance energy demands between night time and day time. They could also be used to store electricity from renewable's like wind which are not always reliable.

    All that is a little off topic, although it does tie in nicely with low costs. I think the new charger is about 6k in Japan, but once that comes down in price I'd like one on my home. It would be nice to run your home during the day on night rate electricity :)


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    #17
    creedp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,607 ✭✭✭creedp


    pajo1981 wrote: »
    More like 250k- and that's on today's rates.

    If e-cars take off, expect the price of off-peak electricity to rise.


    Also expect a new form of taxation - annual tax - for EV's. There is no way that EVs will be left untaxed if they become popular. Too much revenue to forgo from what has always been a cash cow. EV's still require a road infrastructure and road safety/policing etc, etc in the same way as ICE cars and this is the excuse to tax.


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    #18
    Sesshoumaru
    Registered Users Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭Sesshoumaru


    AlanD wrote: »
    Fascinating commentary. Thanks for posting it here.

    The running costs alone look amazing. The cost is high to buy in though and that's my problem. We wouldn't be in the market for a 30k car at all. Not in this economy. But, I reckon if we were in the market for a 20k car and if we added in the savings associated with running costs, then it could come close to being a viable offer.

    What is your current average range on the Leaf and could you leave it a few days without charging if you didn't drive much?

    Winter range is a little lower as heating power comes from the battery. I'd say 120km range in winter. All this can be minimised with preheating though. However that's with the 2011 Nissan Leaf. If you were buying one you would get the 2012 model which has heated seats, heated steering wheel and a heater on the battery pack in case it gets down to minus 27 and below. My model Leaf can only use an air heater to keep me warm, which can draw up to 4.5kw of power when initially heating the car (negated if you preheat). However heated seats and steering wheel are in direct contact with the human body and can keep you warm with only 100 or 200 watts of power. That should make a huge difference to winter driving.

    Have a look at these short videos. There are observations on winter capacity and general performance of the car.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2iL2M2AB70
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD1bIlhQALw&feature=relmfu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV1qHq5oX4c&feature=relmfu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83hnOo18aaA&feature=relmfu

    I've also looked at and driven the Fluence ZE. It is not as good as the Leaf and has major drawbacks. The Fluence ZE that you can buy now, is missing a major feature that will be added to Fluence ZE cars that go on sale in the 4th quarter of this year.


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    #19
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Just done some calculations. In terms of actual running cost (fuel only), the Leaf costs just 5.6% of what it costs to do the same amount of mileage in my current car.

    Electric is the way forward in terms of costs. No doubt about it.


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    #20
    Big Nasty
    Registered Users Posts: 22,080 ✭✭✭✭Big Nasty


    There was less than 50 EV's sold here last year. Personally I would hold off for another couple of years until their reliability has been proven.


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    #21
    September1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭September1


    AlanD wrote: »
    My wife drives to work and every few weekends we drive to the grandparents houses, or I might have to do a spin across the country because of work. So we always have a need for a proper car.

    Cars with Chademo ports are quite OK for cross country travel in Ireland, so the need for other car is quite limited. It also costs about 20-30 euro per day to rent a car for days where you really need to cover long distances in short time

    What are people's thoughts on the likes of the Leaf and the Fluence z.e.? With the ESB installing a free charging point to your house (first 2000 homes), having a car that costs about 2 euro to do about 100/150 miles is pretty tempting. The equivalent diesel might cost around 10/12 euro for similar mileage.
    People hate them, a lot of abuse on Internet. Everyone will constantly prove you how wrong you were go to with electric.
    I like the Leaf on the inside cos it's a driving iPhone. But think it looks horrible on the outside. I like the Fluence cos it looks normal, but the battery leasing scheme puts me off.

    Both are dear to buy initially, but I'm not focusing on that. I could buy a nice '04 BMW 645CI for a third of the cost and have a lot of fun with it, but petrol would be a huge running cost. So in terms of having a very cheap to run, if you were already in the market to spend over 25K for a car, an electric car is now making sense.
    Remeber there is no VRT on LEAF, whatever you pay in UK is final price.. plus ferry ;-)
    We could even drive it to our grandparents house and use their electricity to charge it up!
    For that you need UK sourced LEAF as they come with domestic socket charging cable, otherwise it could cost up to 700 euro to buy one.

    Confab wrote: »
    Just done some calculations. In terms of actual running cost (fuel only), the Leaf costs just 5.6% of what it costs to do the same amount of mileage in my current car.

    Electric is the way forward in terms of costs. No doubt about it.

    Well, the big savings are on servicing - no oil change, no exhaust, no particle filter, no catalyzer, no oil filer, no air filter, no EGR, no turbo, no lamba sensor etc etc However there is still breaking system, suspension system and tyres for EVs are more expensive.
    MCMLXXV wrote: »
    There was less than 50 EV's sold here last year. Personally I would hold off for another couple of years until their reliability has been proven.

    EVs are here since 19th century, they are certainly more tried than modern diesel engines.


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    #22
    AlanD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭AlanD


    September1 wrote: »
    Remeber there is no VRT on LEAF, whatever you pay in UK is final price.. plus ferry

    Well that's something I didn't consider. 2011 Leaf's are in the UK for 19/20k stg. So about 23/24k euro.

    6/7k saving on Irish prices already.....

    hhmmm...


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    #23
    creedp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,607 ✭✭✭creedp


    AlanD wrote: »
    Well that's something I didn't consider. 2011 Leaf's are in the UK for 19/20k stg. So about 23/24k euro.

    6/7k saving on Irish prices already.....

    hhmmm...


    Don't want to always be banging on about it ... but for how long will this be allowed to go on if they become popular? So no VRT, no road tax, no fuel duty ...... fantasy land


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    #24
    AlanD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭AlanD


    creedp wrote: »
    Don't want to always be banging on about it ... but for how long will this be allowed to go on if they become popular? So no VRT, no road tax, no fuel duty ...... fantasy land

    For sure, the status quo would change if government revenues dropped significantly. Just like car tax for newer cars went up.

    But still.....2 euro a fill up is brilliant.


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    #25
    September1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭September1


    I would add my biggest grief with LEAF is lost potential. It just hurts when you consider that:
    - thanks to battery there is super-low center of gravity
    - for above reason there is good front-back balance close to 50/50
    - to deliver energy all you need is some cable, which means that engine could be anywhere
    - electric motor has similar characteristic to V8, flat torque and linearly growing power
    - ...up to 10k rpm
    - there is no clutch, or regular gearbox - power is directly engine to road
    And then think that what Nissan did was:
    - make it FWD instead of RWD
    - steering that feels completely disconnected from car
    - no launch control!
    - american-style soft suspension
    - no sport mode in software


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    #26
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    120km range. So I couldn't drive one to the Motors meet on Sunday from Dublin if I wanted to come back?


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    #27
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    September1 wrote: »
    I would add my biggest grief with LEAF is lost potential. It just hurts when you consider that:
    - thanks to battery there is super-low center of gravity
    - for above reason there is good front-back balance close to 50/50
    - to deliver energy all you need is some cable, which means that engine could be anywhere
    - electric motor has similar characteristic to V8, flat torque and linearly growing power
    - ...up to 10k rpm
    - there is no clutch, or regular gearbox - power is directly engine to road
    And then think that what Nissan did was:
    - make it FWD instead of RWD
    - steering that feels completely disconnected from car
    - no launch control!
    - american-style soft suspension
    - no sport mode in software

    It's only lost potential if they were trying to build a sports car, they werent. By that logic all ICE cars thats arent a Veyron are an excercise in missed potential.


    If you want an eletric sports car, buy a Tesla, but you will have to pay a lot more. Just liek with ICE cars.


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    #28
    Tropheus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭Tropheus


    I had a test drive in the Leaf a few months ago.

    The level of equipment was good and it seemed well put together. The ride felt harsh and the car felt heavy for its size. Probably down to the batteries.

    On the plus side, the brakes were good and there was plenty of grunt. When I started off, the battery level showed 87%. After 3 miles and one stretch where I nailed it, it was at 56% when I was finished. I noticed that the aircon and radio were off during the test drive.

    I reckon that I would struggle to do a 35 mile each way commute with lights, aircon and radio going (and possibly wipers) on one charge.

    The other question is battery replacement after 5 years or so. Nissan have been very tight lipped on the cost.

    There's a reason there are next to none on the road.


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    #29
    Jimbob 83
    Registered Users Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭Jimbob 83


    ksimpson wrote: »
    I had a test drive in the Leaf a few months ago.

    The level of equipment was good and it seemed well put together. The ride felt harsh and the car felt heavy for its size. Probably down to the batteries.

    On the plus side, the brakes were good and there was plenty of grunt. When I started off, the battery level showed 87%. After 3 miles and one stretch where I nailed it, it was at 56% when I was finished. I noticed that the aircon and radio were off during the test drive.

    I reckon that I would struggle to do a 35 mile each way commute with lights, aircon and radio going (and possibly wipers) on one charge.

    The other question is battery replacement after 5 years or so. Nissan have been very tight lipped on the cost.

    There's a reason there are next to none on the road    .

    Yes because it's new technology obviously


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    #30
    Sitec
    Registered Users Posts: 2,964 ✭✭✭Sitec


    I had the pleasure of driving a Leaf three months ago. I loved every minute of it, completely different to a ICE vehicle.

    The interior and build quality is top notch, and the driving experience for everyday motoring is more than adequate for a five door family hatchback.

    People forget the Leaf isn't being sold as a sports car. I noticed my driving style changed, I was trying to drive much smoother in order to get a better range reading. It's fairly satisfying and surreal not hearing banging and clanking and instead an almost sci-fi like "whine" from the vehicle.

    I'd love a Leaf but I can't afford one at the moment.


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    #31
    September1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭September1


    Mr. Presentable wrote: »
    120km range. So I couldn't drive one to the Motors meet on Sunday from Dublin if I wanted to come back?

    Unless you spend 20 minutes to recharge. Sounds long but think about all this time you save on visiting petrol stations...
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    It's only lost potential if they were trying to build a sports car, they werent. By that logic all ICE cars thats arent a Veyron are an excercise in missed potential.

    Well, you get it wrong. There are few ICEs that are both nice to drive and usable every day - Alfa Romeo would be excellent example. What makes fine car is not being fastest or most expensive like Veyron. That is about engineering, about making best from what you have.
    If you want an eletric sports car, buy a Tesla, but you will have to pay a lot more. Just liek with ICE cars.
    With ICE cars there are hot hatches, low cost sports cars, have you heard about new Toyota GT86? I would not want Nissan to make EV a sports car, just to not waste potential in low hanging fruit.


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