Floyd Mayweather Junior is there for the taking

horsemeat · 15-12-2011 1:25am

Would you stop, I shaded the first fight to him and second much more comprehensive.
Mayweather is a different animal altogether lads, he's genuinely about 3 levels above most of the top other welterweights in the division. The reason people say he doesn't look great is cause it's just too easy for him. He's never tested, never has to come out of second gear.

When he does get pressed he mops up and prances around like a cat, a feline gracefully evading capture or contact.

He's a one of a kind, God gifted fighter. Guys like him come along once every twenty or thirty years at best. When he's gone people will start to realise in hindsight how great he really was. People just dislike his brash and arrogant personality, which is really just for show to sell fights. Behind it all he is a humble man.

gene_tunney · 15-12-2011 1:54am

I honestly don't think history will be kind to Mayweather. Well, if he beats Pac, maybe. He has no career defining wins.

What is his best victory? A blown up Hatton? A faded De La Hoya?

He has had so many fights (Baldomir, Marquez, Judah, Mosley off the top of my head) where he was absolutely coasting in the second half of the fight and still couldn't get a stoppage. A true great would have put those guys out of their misery.

He is no SRL, or no sweet Pea Whitaker. Sweet Pea wasn't a power puncher either, but he had skills that even Floyd could not match. Sweet Pea was a pure boxer, he could do it all.

Floyd is not a pure boxer. I would class him as an athletic virtuoso, a different category. He doesn't have textbook skills, he doesn't jab or throw 1-2s with regularity. He has a few learned off moves, coupled with lightning viper quickness. Lead right - bam! Moving back, check hook and swivel. And obviously his defence is phenomenal. It doesn't make him any easier to beat, but it's the way he fights, and I still love him for it.

walshb · 15-12-2011 12:38pm

gene_tunney wrote: »

I honestly don't think history will be kind to Mayweather. Well, if he beats Pac, maybe. He has no career defining wins.

What is his best victory? A blown up Hatton? A faded De La Hoya?

He has had so many fights (Baldomir, Marquez, Judah, Mosley off the top of my head) where he was absolutely coasting in the second half of the fight and still couldn't get a stoppage. A true great would have put those guys out of their misery.

He is no SRL, or no sweet Pea Whitaker. Sweet Pea wasn't a power puncher either, but he had skills that even Floyd could not match. Sweet Pea was a pure boxer, he could do it all.

Floyd is not a pure boxer. I would class him as an athletic virtuoso, a different category. He doesn't have textbook skills, he doesn't jab or throw 1-2s with regularity. He has a few learned off moves, coupled with lightning viper quickness. Lead right - bam! Moving back, check hook and swivel. And obviously his defence is phenomenal. It doesn't make him any easier to beat, but it's the way he fights, and I still love him for it.

I like your breakdown of his style. He is not a "text book fighter," that is true, uses speed, reflexes and timing, but, on form, stunning.

But, his era is his era. He can only beat what is in it. If I were to put Mayweather at 130-140 lbs in ANY era, I would be confident that he would be a top 5 fighter. He is that good. At WW he is not a great all time fighter.

And, vs. Pea at any weight I think he wins a close decision. Styles.

rebelomar · 15-12-2011 5:48pm

Completely agree with the poster who says Mayweather always starts slow...but he also does this is a cautious way...never takes any real punishment...and looks for holes in his oppenants style. He has them timed to a tee usually by round 3 or 4...but he often wins the first few rounds anyway.

Lately he's been more agressive...this I feel is born out of the constant critisim of his style by people who just want to see a brawl. He has def gone for a more crowd pleasing style. I though he was awesome against Ortiz while not even having to break sweat..Ortiz never really troubled Money...if you look its closely he forces him to the ropes ok..but how many of those shots are really landing...very very few. He landed at will with that right hand while standing right in front of Ortiz. His critics have been calling for him to stand and trade for years and now he has doing it he still gets critisied. Now I'm not a fool...time and age waits for no man and hes obviously not as quick as he was...but he's adapting because thats what he always does...adapts to the opposition and wins.

By the way anybody who feels Pacman hasn't slowed down needs their head examined...his legs are very much a real issue for him. If he can't cut down the ring effectively at times vs Mosley and at all vs Marquez how do guys think he will manage this vs Mayweather? If he finds a way to do this then yes he can give him plenty of problems....but id still fancy Mayweather to adapt and prevail

makl · 15-12-2011 8:59pm

this fella (pro-floyd) has broken down each round v ortiz as he saw it, though he missed few punches, moreso in R1, has floyd up 4-0, fairly i reckon. watchin some of the stuff though shows the class floyd still has.

here's R4 the others are all there too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjqlhJC_OGo

cowzerp · 16-12-2011 12:10pm

Agreed Makl

I genuinely watched that fight and was in awe-he just made it look so easy and it was all about brains

Floyd is 1 of a small handfull of boxers ever that i watch and go wow, and not wow in a Tyson, Foreman way

Robinson, Ali, Leonard and now Mayweather these are geniuses that when you watch them some times you are in disbelief. There is more but there the ones that stand out for me

People should be very gratefull we have him because when he stops we will yearn for another fighter like this, but like many things he will be more loved when he is finished than he is now.

richierichballs · 16-12-2011 1:48pm

Floyd one of the best boxers to ever live, Nobody out there can beat him accept for maybe Martinez.

And call me crazy but I think Khan would give him trouble aswell.

richierichballs · 16-12-2011 1:49pm

cowzerp wrote: »

Agreed Makl

I genuinely watched that fight and was in awe-he just made it look so easy and it was all about brains

Floyd is 1 of a small handfull of boxers ever that i watch and go wow, and not wow in a Tyson, Foreman way

Robinson, Ali, Leonard and now Mayweather these are geniuses that when you watch them some times you are in disbelief. There is more but there the ones that stand out for me

People should be very gratefull we have him because when he stops we will yearn for another fighter like this, but like many things he will be more loved when he is finished than he is now.

Couldn't agree more with everything you just said.

megadodge · 16-12-2011 9:02pm

horsemeat wrote: »

Would you stop, I shaded the first fight to him and second much more comprehensive.
Mayweather is a different animal altogether lads, he's genuinely about 3 levels above most of the top other welterweights in the division. The reason people say he doesn't look great is cause it's just too easy for him. He's never tested, never has to come out of second gear.

When he does get pressed he mops up and prances around like a cat, a feline gracefully evading capture or contact.

He's a one of a kind, God gifted fighter. Guys like him come along once every twenty or thirty years at best. When he's gone people will start to realise in hindsight how great he really was. People just dislike his brash and arrogant personality, which is really just for show to sell fights. Behind it all he is a humble man.

The fact that such a big fan reckons he only "shaded" the first says it all for me. I repeat "Castillo by 4". It wasn't even close. And I'm far from the only person who thinks so.

I already stated that he definitely won the second, but he wasn't exactly impressive.

If you think there hasn't been a fighter like him for the last 20 or 30 years then you've obviously never seen a prime Roy Jones! There is nothing Mayweather can do that Jones couldn't, but the same cannot be said in reverse.

megadodge · 16-12-2011 9:07pm

gene_tunney wrote: »

I honestly don't think history will be kind to Mayweather. Well, if he beats Pac, maybe. He has no career defining wins.

What is his best victory? A blown up Hatton? A faded De La Hoya?

He has had so many fights (Baldomir, Marquez, Judah, Mosley off the top of my head) where he was absolutely coasting in the second half of the fight and still couldn't get a stoppage. A true great would have put those guys out of their misery.

He is no SRL, or no sweet Pea Whitaker. Sweet Pea wasn't a power puncher either, but he had skills that even Floyd could not match. Sweet Pea was a pure boxer, he could do it all.

Floyd is not a pure boxer. I would class him as an athletic virtuoso, a different category. He doesn't have textbook skills, he doesn't jab or throw 1-2s with regularity. He has a few learned off moves, coupled with lightning viper quickness. Lead right - bam! Moving back, check hook and swivel. And obviously his defence is phenomenal. It doesn't make him any easier to beat, but it's the way he fights, and I still love him for it.

I reckon you're being a bit unkind to him here. If you go back to his super-feather days his resumé is as good as any in history. He fought and completely dominated a whole slew of real quality guys. Unfortunately, he didn't fight the top lads once he left lightweight and I suppose that's what people are currently remembering.

With regard to your "pure boxer" arguement, I have to admit to being confused, because I think he's phenomanally skilled and the most skilful part of boxing is defence which he is an absolute master of, so....

cowzerp · 16-12-2011 9:38pm

megadodge wrote: »

There is nothing Mayweather can do that Jones couldn't, but the same cannot be said in reverse.

Not get knocked out is 1 thing he can do that Jones failed too

Ko'd twice at 34, same age as Floyd, then again at 35-Not knocking RJJ s he was a phenomen but i'm just making a point that there is something Floyd has done that RJJ failed to do at the same age.

Plus i doubt Floyd will keep going and start to lose to nobodys

walshb · 16-12-2011 9:46pm

I rate Floyd better than Jones overall. Jones had a lot of natural speed and reflexes, but I do not believe he possessed the same boxing acumen as Floyd. Floyd is IMO more a complete fighter. He can rough it up and box it out that bit better. Floyd relied on his natural talents, but Jones relied on them more.

I would like to hear what Roy can do that Floyd could not, or what Roy does that is better than what Floyd does?

One area, defence. Roy's was based mostly around his reflex speed. Floyd's was a mix of reflexes and natural defensive awareness.

James Toney also had that natural defensive awareness.

Speed? Toss up.

Chin? Well, that is difficult to assess, but p4p I would say Floyd probably takes a better shot. Folks can make excuses that Roy only got knowked out after peak, but they were bad KOs, from shots that were hardly hail mary's. One could also say he got knocked out the first time a good clean and heavy shot tagged him flush.

Feet? Very close; I will lean with Floyd's use of his feet.

Stamina? Difficult. Jones was rarely in a fight that he had to do a whole lot of work. Fairt play to him for that.

Power? Jones

richierichballs · 16-12-2011 11:55pm

megadodge wrote: »

horsemeat wrote: »

Would you stop, I shaded the first fight to him and second much more comprehensive.
Mayweather is a different animal altogether lads, he's genuinely about 3 levels above most of the top other welterweights in the division. The reason people say he doesn't look great is cause it's just too easy for him. He's never tested, never has to come out of second gear.

When he does get pressed he mops up and prances around like a cat, a feline gracefully evading capture or contact.

He's a one of a kind, God gifted fighter. Guys like him come along once every twenty or thirty years at best. When he's gone people will start to realise in hindsight how great he really was. People just dislike his brash and arrogant personality, which is really just for show to sell fights. Behind it all he is a humble man.

The fact that such a big fan reckons he only "shaded" the first says it all for me. I repeat "Castillo by 4". It wasn't even close. And I'm far from the only person who thinks so.

I already stated that he definitely won the second, but he wasn't exactly impressive.

If you think there hasn't been a fighter like him for the last 20 or 30 years then you've obviously never seen a prime Roy Jones! There is nothing Mayweather can do that Jones couldn't, but the same cannot be said in reverse.

Funny you should say that you had Floyd winning the first fight by four rounds,
But he clearly won the second? lol.

Funny thing is the judges scored the second fight closer then the first,
Floyd beat him convincingly in both fights IMO.

Littlehorny · 17-12-2011 12:18am

Mayweather plants his feet more now than he used to do, which would suggest he is slowing a little, also he is not a massive hitter so he is trying to get more power into his shots. It will be interesting in the next couple of months to see just how hard he persues the Pacquiao fight, if he is slowing he might start thinking this guy is younger than me,has been much more active than me in the last few years, has above average power, good chin, can fight at a higher pace than i like for twelve rounds and has fast hands and feet. We all know Mayweather is brilliant but he is also no risk taker. But if Floyd still feels he is in good shape, feels Pacquaio is in decline and cant deal with his counter punching and if the money is off the chart then he might persue the fight. As i said my main point is we will know more about Mayweather by how aggresively he persues this fight. If he announces another fight against another b lister or old timer in the next few monthes then we might never see the 2 best fighters of there generation share a ring.:)

megadodge · 17-12-2011 9:34pm

richierichballs wrote: »

Funny you should say that you had Floyd winning the first fight by four rounds,
But he clearly won the second? lol.

Funny thing is the judges scored the second fight closer then the first,
Floyd beat him convincingly in both fights IMO.

??????????

Really?????
Where did I say Floyd won the first by 4 rounds?

Try reading my post again when you're sober.

megadodge · 17-12-2011 9:43pm

Cowzerp, I know you're not putting Jones down, but I didn't think it was necessary to mention "prime" Roy Jones to the likes of you. Obviously when I am talking of what Jones "can do" I mean in his prime as opposed to right now when there's a world of difference between the two.

If we're talking about Ali's traits v any other boxer we're not going to be discussing what happened him in his mid 30's.

megadodge · 17-12-2011 10:20pm

Walshb, the following are things I believe Jones can do better than Mayweather.

PRIME obviously (not for you, but the others).

Knock out / badly hurt people with one punch - from either hand.

Defense. On this point, I can't believe the amount of people who believe that fellas whose hands are down "have no defense". Defense is the ability to avoid the opposition's offense. That's all! Whether you do it via reflexes, footwork, judgement of distance, anticipation, head movement, upper-body movement, side-to-side movement or good ol' hands up blocking ala Felix Sturm, it doesn't matter. Is it effective? That's the only thing that matters. The ONLY thing.

You have regularly claimed on here (including the post I'm replying to) that Jones got KO'd the first time he ever got hit flush. That means you believe he didn't get hit flush for FIFTEEN YEARS as an elite professional boxer. If that's the case it's kinda hard to say ANYBODY else ever had a better defense.

Prime Jones never had problems with anybody. He DOMINATED everybody. All styles. All types. There were no gift decisions like Castillo I. And though I haven't seen the full fight I know you are one of a number of people who thought Dela Hoya beat him. There were never any doubts in any of Jones' fights, he was that far ahead of anyone else, including your hero James Toney, the then-P4P number 1 (something you've never forgiven him for).

Jones often lead with triple, even quadruple left hooks. I never saw Floyd to that.

In Jones' title defense with the huge and dangerous David Telesco. he ENTERED the fight with a broken left hand from a motorcyle crash. That's his lead hand. He didn't fight southpaw, he landed back hands almost exclusively for the entire fight and won every round on all 3 judges cards. Floyd has never done anything remotely like that.

Jones was faster than Mayweather. Hands and feet.

I firmly believe Floyd Mayweather is one of the all-time great boxers, I just don't think he's as good as Roy Jones was.

gene_tunney · 17-12-2011 11:18pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IRwQADvvcY

walshb · 18-12-2011 12:50pm

megadodge wrote: »

Walshb, the following are things I believe Jones can do better than Mayweather.

PRIME obviously (not for you, but the others).

Knock out / badly hurt people with one punch - from either hand.

Defense. On this point, I can't believe the amount of people who believe that fellas whose hands are down "have no defense". Defense is the ability to avoid the opposition's offense. That's all! Whether you do it via reflexes, footwork, judgement of distance, anticipation, head movement, upper-body movement, side-to-side movement or good ol' hands up blocking ala Felix Sturm, it doesn't matter. Is it effective? That's the only thing that matters. The ONLY thing.

You have regularly claimed on here (including the post I'm replying to) that Jones got KO'd the first time he ever got hit flush. That means you believe he didn't get hit flush for FIFTEEN YEARS as an elite professional boxer. If that's the case it's kinda hard to say ANYBODY else ever had a better defense.

Prime Jones never had problems with anybody. He DOMINATED everybody. All styles. All types. There were no gift decisions like Castillo I. And though I haven't seen the full fight I know you are one of a number of people who thought Dela Hoya beat him. There were never any doubts in any of Jones' fights, he was that far ahead of anyone else, including your hero James Toney, the then-P4P number 1 (something you've never forgiven him for).

Jones often lead with triple, even quadruple left hooks. I never saw Floyd to that.

In Jones' title defense with the huge and dangerous David Telesco. he ENTERED the fight with a broken left hand from a motorcyle crash. That's his lead hand. He didn't fight southpaw, he landed back hands almost exclusively for the entire fight and won every round on all 3 judges cards. Floyd has never done anything remotely like that.

Jones was faster than Mayweather. Hands and feet.

I firmly believe Floyd Mayweather is one of the all-time great boxers, I just don't think he's as good as Roy Jones was.

I just never warmed to him. Wasn't crazy about his style. I can't put my finger on it. Just didn't do it for me. Same was Monzon didn't. Not saying they are similar, just that both didn't do it for me. Monzon more so.

His defense was very good. I just said that it relied mostly on his natural god given talents, whereas PBF has a defense that is more rounded, not just the god given traits. The shoulder roll and other little traits he has.

As for beating Toney? Couldn't care less. Wel,, I could.;) I much rather watching Toney at peak. Jones in full flow is very good to watch, I will admit that.

cowzerp · 18-12-2011 3:53pm

I love RJJ, a true great and my example is based on Mayweathers age now-like with like-i'd never run RJJ down as he was a special fighter..

megadodge wrote: »

Walshb, the following are things I believe Jones can do better than Mayweather.

PRIME obviously (not for you, but the others).

Knock out / badly hurt people with one punch - from either hand.

Defense. On this point, I can't believe the amount of people who believe that fellas whose hands are down "have no defense". Defense is the ability to avoid the opposition's offense. That's all! Whether you do it via reflexes, footwork, judgement of distance, anticipation, head movement, upper-body movement, side-to-side movement or good ol' hands up blocking ala Felix Sturm, it doesn't matter. Is it effective? That's the only thing that matters. The ONLY thing.

You have regularly claimed on here (including the post I'm replying to) that Jones got KO'd the first time he ever got hit flush. That means you believe he didn't get hit flush for FIFTEEN YEARS as an elite professional boxer. If that's the case it's kinda hard to say ANYBODY else ever had a better defense.

Prime Jones never had problems with anybody. He DOMINATED everybody. All styles. All types. There were no gift decisions like Castillo I. And though I haven't seen the full fight I know you are one of a number of people who thought Dela Hoya beat him. There were never any doubts in any of Jones' fights, he was that far ahead of anyone else, including your hero James Toney, the then-P4P number 1 (something you've never forgiven him for).

Jones often lead with triple, even quadruple left hooks. I never saw Floyd to that.

In Jones' title defense with the huge and dangerous David Telesco. he ENTERED the fight with a broken left hand from a motorcyle crash. That's his lead hand. He didn't fight southpaw, he landed back hands almost exclusively for the entire fight and won every round on all 3 judges cards. Floyd has never done anything remotely like that.

Jones was faster than Mayweather. Hands and feet.

I firmly believe Floyd Mayweather is one of the all-time great boxers, I just don't think he's as good as Roy Jones was.

Floyd Mayweather Junior is there for the taking

Comments