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Toyota to use BMW diesel engines, BMW to use Toyota's HSD

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  • 10-12-2011 9:17pm
    #1
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭


    Surprised no-one has mentioned this (unless I've missed it), but basically from 2014 Toyota will start to use BMW's 1.6 and 2.0 four cylinder diesels, and in return BMW has access to Toyota's much vaunted HSD technology.

    Looks like a diesel Toyota will no longer be the default choice for anyone wanting a reliable diesel, but on the other hand it will give them something to cover the huge gap there between the 1.4 and 2.0 D-4D engines.

    Anyway, the higher powered Toyota diesels (the 2.2's) are hardly a byword for reliability, although I would much rather replace a head gasket than a turbo or a brand new engine because of swirl flap failure:eek::D!

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/260324/


    I am a little surprised that there is no mention of BMW's 3.0 six cylinder, surely if Lexus wants to be a serious player in Europe it should offer people the option of BMW's 3.0 six as well as their hybrids?

    I wonder will Lexus finally offer a diesel in the GS from then? BMW's 2.0 diesel goes up to 218 bhp so I suppose that would cover the IS range and the lower end of the GS segment, although I know the bulk of the GS sized cars are now powered with four cylinder diesels, so perhaps they decided it wasn't worth the bother of taking some of BMW's six cylinder lumps.

    Of course if it's only going to be Toyotas that will use the BMW engines then obviously they won't be needing the six cylinder engine.

    It will be interesting to see what happens the CO2 emissions of hybrid BMWs, because the results of BMW's Active Hybrid thing are very unspectacular compared to HSD, the 5 series hybrid is only 16% more efficient than the 535i on which it is based and has hardly any more power, whereas the new GS hybrid is no less than 30% more efficient than the petrol equivalent while at the same time about 40% more power, and the petrol equivalent has an 800 cc smaller engine as well!


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    #2
    heate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭✭heate


    Lexus European marketing mangers should have been shot by now for not demanding a range diesels. Europe is hooked on derv.
    Peope like to say that oh Lexus how good of them not to be putting diesels into their cars.
    But it's a bloody business with shareholders. Lexus have seemed to just focus on the states where yes they may sell a huge volume of cars but margins are higher in Europe!
    This BMW deal though I can't see BMW allowing 25 and 30d's to be put in directly competing cars so what fruits the deal will bring may be Toyota centric


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    #3
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    Toyota's head of development is i on record as saying that BMW's diesels are superior to toyota's - go figure.


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    #4
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    pajo1981 wrote: »
    Toyota's head of development is i on record as saying that BMW's diesels are superior to toyota's - go figure.

    When new yes, BMW are able to get more mpg and bhp than Toyota, and anyone else.

    Down the line though it's a different story - when was the last time anyone heard of a Toyota diesel suffering from swirl flap or turbo failure? When was the last time Toyota allowed several generations of engine suffer from the exact same faults, like BMW's diesels? The turbo and swirl flap problems have affected the 02-04 vintage 320ds, and the 163 hp E90 320ds.

    Admittedly Toyota's diesels are supposed to have swirl flaps, but I have yet to hear of a Toyota engine injesting its swirl flaps.

    I think one of the big problems with BMW diesels is those crazy service intervals - up two years or over 30,000 km on the same oil is absolute madness! Hopefully for Toyota's sake they will stick to their one year/15,000 km service intervals with these new diesels.


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    #5
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,071 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    And to think that not so many years ago BMW used a Toyota diesel engine! That said, it was the 1.4 D-4D in the MINI. A mistake. Perhaps good enough for a Toyota Yaris buyer but way too dull for a MINI. It was quickly replaced by a more competent HDi diesel from PSA


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    #6
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,071 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    captainspeed wrote: »
    when was the last time anyone heard of a Toyota diesel suffering from swirl flap or turbo failure?

    You're starting to sound like a broken record ;)

    Yes the swirl flaps were a design failure and they led to a lot of trouble, but that was nearly 10 years ago and a simple, very cheap fix (take them out and replace them with blanking plates) has been in place for many, many years now...


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    #7
    Rob C
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Rob C


    The BMW N47 engine is a peach so thats great news for Toyota. The basic engine one the 320/520D is a 177 BHP 0-60 in 8.3 secs (520D manual) with combined fuel consumption at the mid 50's mark. That's pretty outstanding. And all at the lower tax band too.

    BMW have really moved the goalposts with their diesel engines.


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    #8
    Matt Simis
    Registered Users Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    unkel wrote: »
    You're starting to sound like a broken record ;)

    Yes the swirl flaps were a design failure and they led to a lot of trouble, but that was nearly 10 years ago and a simple, very cheap fix (take them out and replace them with blanking plates) has been in place for many, many years now...
    Was just about to ask the OP if he realised is nearly 2012.. ;)
    Swirl flaps were a concern (I changed them on a family 3litre diesel engine just in case) but the occurrence of failure was far from commonplace.


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    #9
    Saab Ed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Saab Ed


    heate wrote: »
    Lexus have seemed to just focus on the states where yes they may sell a huge volume of cars but margins are higher in Europe!


    Well its not called Luxury EXport to the US for nothing you know :D


    And no I didnt just make that up , that's exactly where it came from.


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    #10
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,166 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    Rob C wrote: »
    The BMW N47 engine is a peach so thats great news for Toyota. The basic engine one the 320/520D is a 177 BHP 0-60 in 8.3 secs (520D manual) with combined fuel consumption at the mid 50's mark. That's pretty outstanding. And all at the lower tax band too.

    BMW have really moved the goalposts with their diesel engines.

    It's actually 184bhp these days. :)

    And the swirl flap and turbo breather filter issues are not known in the N47 engine as they have been redesigned. The N47 engine is proving to as reliable as any other CR diesel engine out there at the moment.

    Also Lexus are not putting a diesel engine into the GS, instead they are using a smaller capacity petrol (2.5 litre) engine + electric motor as the new hybrid in the GS. No idea if the N47 will find it's way into the next IS as while the IS may not be a competitor dynamically to BMW, it is a rival to them in the sales charts.


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    #11
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Toyota are having a MASSIVE problem at the moment with sooting and intake clogging on the diesel engines, especially on the 2.2 diesel.

    If it's not swirl flaps, it'll be something else...


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    #12
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,071 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Saab Ed wrote: »
    Well its not called Luxury EXport to the US for nothing you know :D


    And no I didnt just make that up , that's exactly where it came from.

    I'll be damned. Never knew that. Every day is a school day :)


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    #13
    Solnskaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Solnskaya


    unkel wrote: »
    I'll be damned. Never knew that. Every day is a school day :)
    Join the club, maybe its just a lucky coincidence though? I thought it stood for Louch, EXtravagant and UnSustainable. I may just be jealouse though.....


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    #14
    heate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭✭heate


    Are there driveline losses associated with rwd?
    Given BMW's wizardry with c02 and mpg what shall these fwd BMW powered Toyota's achieve?


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    #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    captainspeed wrote: »
    .............

    Looks like a diesel Toyota will no longer be the default choice for anyone wanting a reliable diesel ................

    They haven't been that since the late 90s early 00s me thinks.


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    #16
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,071 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    heate wrote: »
    Are there driveline losses associated with rwd?

    There are when the engine is in the front :)


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    #17
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    RoverJames wrote: »
    They haven't been that since the late 90s early 00s me thinks.

    I hardly think so, just look at all the Avensis diesel taxis out there....

    I know some of the earlier Avensis D4Ds suffer from injector trouble, but the D4D 125 seems to do no wrong apart from the DMF, but all the diesels suffer from that eventually.


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    #18
    YouTookMyName
    Registered Users Posts: 3,361 ✭✭✭YouTookMyName


    RoverJames wrote: »
    They haven't been that since the late 90s early 00s me thinks.

    2.2 is the Problem.

    2.0 and 2.5 not a bother.


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    #19
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    YouTookMyName wrote: »
    2.2 is the Problem.

    2.0 and 2.5 not a bother.

    +1, any problems I've heard of with Toyota diesels are with the older 2.0s (the 5 speed ones can suffer from injector problems) and the 2.2s, the six speed 2.0s are extremely reliable for a modern diesel. The 1.4 never gives trouble as well.

    The 2.2 and especially the 3.0 are the problem children, especially the 3.0. Aside from the HG (which compared to swirl flaps or the turbo is cheap to repair) the 2.2 is reliable enough as well.

    I think one of the reasons why Toyota diesels are (usually) very reliable is the short service intervals - 15,000 km or one year, whichever comes first. I simply do not believe that leaving a car go up to over 30,000 km on the same oil (as you can with a BMW) is good for the engine in the long run!


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    #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    captainspeed wrote: »
    +1, any problems I've heard of with Toyota diesels are with the older 2.0s (the 5 speed ones can suffer from injector problems) and the 2.2s, the six speed 2.0s are extremely reliable for a modern diesel. The 1.4 never gives trouble as well..............

    So at best some toyota diesels were the default choice for a modern reliable diesel :)


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    #21
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 68,046 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    captainspeed wrote: »
    Looks like a diesel Toyota will no longer be the default choice for anyone wanting a reliable diesel

    Virtually all the 1.4D4Ds in my employer's fleet needed new turbos under warranty before 10k km. They already aren't a reliable diesel.

    In comparison, in about 2 million culmative km we lost one gasket on a 1.6 HDi/Ford DLD (same engine) with no other engine problems of note.


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    #22
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,415 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    MYOB wrote: »
    Virtually all the 1.4D4Ds in my employer's fleet needed new turbos under warranty before 10k km. They already aren't a reliable diesel.

    In comparison, in about 2 million culmative km we lost one gasket on a 1.6 HDi/Ford DLD (same engine) with no other engine problems of note.

    What year corollas were those? I sold bucket loads of these and never had any come back for turbos


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    #23
    vectra
    Registered Users Posts: 15,513 ✭✭✭✭vectra


    heate wrote: »
    This BMW deal though I can't see BMW allowing 25 and 30d's to be put in directly competing cars so what fruits the deal will bring may be Toyota centric

    Didn't they allow Opel use the 2.5 in their Omega? ( Detuned apparently) but same engine.


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    #24
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 68,046 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    What year corollas were those? I sold bucket loads of these and never had any come back for turbos

    All '11. Auris, but same car obviously.


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    #25
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,415 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    MYOB wrote: »
    All '11. Auris, but same car obviously.

    Ah right, was gone at that stage!
    Different engine setup from 2010 afaik for emissions.


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    #26
    Owen
    Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    Not to mention BMW diesel lumps being in the Range Rover.


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    #27
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,415 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Rover 75 And freelander too...


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    #28
    Owen
    Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    Although, to be fair, I suppose when they allowed those lumps to be in the other cars, they'd stakes in the companies at the time.


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    #29
    Saab Ed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Saab Ed


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Rover 75 And freelander too...

    Now I stand to be corrected on this one but isn't the fact that everybody thinks Rover used a BMW diesel just a missconception. I always thought that it was more of a relation too Rovers own diesels thn anything to do with BM. Maybe I'm wrong!!!!


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    #30
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,415 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Saab Ed wrote: »
    Now I stand to be corrected on this one but isn't the fact that everybody thinks Rover used a BMW diesel just a missconception. I always thought that it was more of a relation too Rovers own diesels thn anything to do with BM. Maybe I'm wrong!!!!

    Rover had the l series, but the engines in the 75 and freelander were BMW, afaik, the 75 used different turbo etc to the BMW engine though,


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    #31
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Rover had the l series, but the engines in the 75 and freelander were BMW, afaik, the 75 used different turbo etc to the BMW engine though,

    Funnily enough the diesels in the 75 and Freelander, which are BMW engines, were actually better than what BMW were using themselves, as far as I know they used a different turbo to what BMW were using and never gave any turbo trouble. I also think they didn't have the dreaded swirl flaps either, but I could be wrong on that.


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