Toyota to use BMW diesel engines, BMW to use Toyota's HSD

Leonard Hofstadter

Surprised no-one has mentioned this (unless I've missed it), but basically from 2014 Toyota will start to use BMW's 1.6 and 2.0 four cylinder diesels, and in return BMW has access to Toyota's much vaunted HSD technology.

Looks like a diesel Toyota will no longer be the default choice for anyone wanting a reliable diesel, but on the other hand it will give them something to cover the huge gap there between the 1.4 and 2.0 D-4D engines.

Anyway, the higher powered Toyota diesels (the 2.2's) are hardly a byword for reliability, although I would much rather replace a head gasket than a turbo or a brand new engine because of swirl flap failure:eek::D!

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/260324/


I am a little surprised that there is no mention of BMW's 3.0 six cylinder, surely if Lexus wants to be a serious player in Europe it should offer people the option of BMW's 3.0 six as well as their hybrids?

I wonder will Lexus finally offer a diesel in the GS from then? BMW's 2.0 diesel goes up to 218 bhp so I suppose that would cover the IS range and the lower end of the GS segment, although I know the bulk of the GS sized cars are now powered with four cylinder diesels, so perhaps they decided it wasn't worth the bother of taking some of BMW's six cylinder lumps.

Of course if it's only going to be Toyotas that will use the BMW engines then obviously they won't be needing the six cylinder engine.

It will be interesting to see what happens the CO2 emissions of hybrid BMWs, because the results of BMW's Active Hybrid thing are very unspectacular compared to HSD, the 5 series hybrid is only 16% more efficient than the 535i on which it is based and has hardly any more power, whereas the new GS hybrid is no less than 30% more efficient than the petrol equivalent while at the same time about 40% more power, and the petrol equivalent has an 800 cc smaller engine as well!

heate

Lexus European marketing mangers should have been shot by now for not demanding a range diesels. Europe is hooked on derv.
Peope like to say that oh Lexus how good of them not to be putting diesels into their cars.
But it's a bloody business with shareholders. Lexus have seemed to just focus on the states where yes they may sell a huge volume of cars but margins are higher in Europe!
This BMW deal though I can't see BMW allowing 25 and 30d's to be put in directly competing cars so what fruits the deal will bring may be Toyota centric

pajo1981

Toyota's head of development is i on record as saying that BMW's diesels are superior to toyota's - go figure.

Leonard Hofstadter

pajo1981 wrote: »

Toyota's head of development is i on record as saying that BMW's diesels are superior to toyota's - go figure.

When new yes, BMW are able to get more mpg and bhp than Toyota, and anyone else.

Down the line though it's a different story - when was the last time anyone heard of a Toyota diesel suffering from swirl flap or turbo failure? When was the last time Toyota allowed several generations of engine suffer from the exact same faults, like BMW's diesels? The turbo and swirl flap problems have affected the 02-04 vintage 320ds, and the 163 hp E90 320ds.

Admittedly Toyota's diesels are supposed to have swirl flaps, but I have yet to hear of a Toyota engine injesting its swirl flaps.

I think one of the big problems with BMW diesels is those crazy service intervals - up two years or over 30,000 km on the same oil is absolute madness! Hopefully for Toyota's sake they will stick to their one year/15,000 km service intervals with these new diesels.

unkel

And to think that not so many years ago BMW used a Toyota diesel engine! That said, it was the 1.4 D-4D in the MINI. A mistake. Perhaps good enough for a Toyota Yaris buyer but way too dull for a MINI. It was quickly replaced by a more competent HDi diesel from PSA

unkel

captainspeed wrote: »

when was the last time anyone heard of a Toyota diesel suffering from swirl flap or turbo failure?

You're starting to sound like a broken record

Yes the swirl flaps were a design failure and they led to a lot of trouble, but that was nearly 10 years ago and a simple, very cheap fix (take them out and replace them with blanking plates) has been in place for many, many years now...

Rob C

The BMW N47 engine is a peach so thats great news for Toyota. The basic engine one the 320/520D is a 177 BHP 0-60 in 8.3 secs (520D manual) with combined fuel consumption at the mid 50's mark. That's pretty outstanding. And all at the lower tax band too.

BMW have really moved the goalposts with their diesel engines.

Matt Simis

unkel wrote: »

You're starting to sound like a broken record

Yes the swirl flaps were a design failure and they led to a lot of trouble, but that was nearly 10 years ago and a simple, very cheap fix (take them out and replace them with blanking plates) has been in place for many, many years now...

Was just about to ask the OP if he realised is nearly 2012..
Swirl flaps were a concern (I changed them on a family 3litre diesel engine just in case) but the occurrence of failure was far from commonplace.

Saab Ed

heate wrote: »

Lexus have seemed to just focus on the states where yes they may sell a huge volume of cars but margins are higher in Europe!

Well its not called Luxury EXport to the US for nothing you know


And no I didnt just make that up , that's exactly where it came from.

bazz26

Rob C wrote: »

The BMW N47 engine is a peach so thats great news for Toyota. The basic engine one the 320/520D is a 177 BHP 0-60 in 8.3 secs (520D manual) with combined fuel consumption at the mid 50's mark. That's pretty outstanding. And all at the lower tax band too.

BMW have really moved the goalposts with their diesel engines.

It's actually 184bhp these days.

And the swirl flap and turbo breather filter issues are not known in the N47 engine as they have been redesigned. The N47 engine is proving to as reliable as any other CR diesel engine out there at the moment.

Also Lexus are not putting a diesel engine into the GS, instead they are using a smaller capacity petrol (2.5 litre) engine + electric motor as the new hybrid in the GS. No idea if the N47 will find it's way into the next IS as while the IS may not be a competitor dynamically to BMW, it is a rival to them in the sales charts.

-Chris-

Toyota are having a MASSIVE problem at the moment with sooting and intake clogging on the diesel engines, especially on the 2.2 diesel.

If it's not swirl flaps, it'll be something else...

unkel

Saab Ed wrote: »

Well its not called Luxury EXport to the US for nothing you know


And no I didnt just make that up , that's exactly where it came from.

I'll be damned. Never knew that. Every day is a school day

Solnskaya

unkel wrote: »

I'll be damned. Never knew that. Every day is a school day

Join the club, maybe its just a lucky coincidence though? I thought it stood for Louch, EXtravagant and UnSustainable. I may just be jealouse though.....

heate

Are there driveline losses associated with rwd?
Given BMW's wizardry with c02 and mpg what shall these fwd BMW powered Toyota's achieve?

captainspeed

captainspeed wrote: »

.............

Looks like a diesel Toyota will no longer be the default choice for anyone wanting a reliable diesel ................

They haven't been that since the late 90s early 00s me thinks.

unkel

heate wrote: »

Are there driveline losses associated with rwd?

There are when the engine is in the front

Leonard Hofstadter

RoverJames wrote: »

They haven't been that since the late 90s early 00s me thinks.

I hardly think so, just look at all the Avensis diesel taxis out there....

I know some of the earlier Avensis D4Ds suffer from injector trouble, but the D4D 125 seems to do no wrong apart from the DMF, but all the diesels suffer from that eventually.

YouTookMyName

RoverJames wrote: »

They haven't been that since the late 90s early 00s me thinks.

2.2 is the Problem.

2.0 and 2.5 not a bother.

Leonard Hofstadter

YouTookMyName wrote: »

2.2 is the Problem.

2.0 and 2.5 not a bother.

+1, any problems I've heard of with Toyota diesels are with the older 2.0s (the 5 speed ones can suffer from injector problems) and the 2.2s, the six speed 2.0s are extremely reliable for a modern diesel. The 1.4 never gives trouble as well.

The 2.2 and especially the 3.0 are the problem children, especially the 3.0. Aside from the HG (which compared to swirl flaps or the turbo is cheap to repair) the 2.2 is reliable enough as well.

I think one of the reasons why Toyota diesels are (usually) very reliable is the short service intervals - 15,000 km or one year, whichever comes first. I simply do not believe that leaving a car go up to over 30,000 km on the same oil (as you can with a BMW) is good for the engine in the long run!

captainspeed

captainspeed wrote: »

+1, any problems I've heard of with Toyota diesels are with the older 2.0s (the 5 speed ones can suffer from injector problems) and the 2.2s, the six speed 2.0s are extremely reliable for a modern diesel. The 1.4 never gives trouble as well..............

So at best some toyota diesels were the default choice for a modern reliable diesel

L1011

captainspeed wrote: »

Looks like a diesel Toyota will no longer be the default choice for anyone wanting a reliable diesel

Virtually all the 1.4D4Ds in my employer's fleet needed new turbos under warranty before 10k km. They already aren't a reliable diesel.

In comparison, in about 2 million culmative km we lost one gasket on a 1.6 HDi/Ford DLD (same engine) with no other engine problems of note.

colm_mcm

MYOB wrote: »

Virtually all the 1.4D4Ds in my employer's fleet needed new turbos under warranty before 10k km. They already aren't a reliable diesel.

In comparison, in about 2 million culmative km we lost one gasket on a 1.6 HDi/Ford DLD (same engine) with no other engine problems of note.

What year corollas were those? I sold bucket loads of these and never had any come back for turbos

vectra

heate wrote: »

This BMW deal though I can't see BMW allowing 25 and 30d's to be put in directly competing cars so what fruits the deal will bring may be Toyota centric

Didn't they allow Opel use the 2.5 in their Omega? ( Detuned apparently) but same engine.

L1011

colm_mcm wrote: »

What year corollas were those? I sold bucket loads of these and never had any come back for turbos

All '11. Auris, but same car obviously.

colm_mcm

MYOB wrote: »

All '11. Auris, but same car obviously.

Ah right, was gone at that stage!
Different engine setup from 2010 afaik for emissions.

Owen

Not to mention BMW diesel lumps being in the Range Rover.

colm_mcm

Rover 75 And freelander too...

Owen

Although, to be fair, I suppose when they allowed those lumps to be in the other cars, they'd stakes in the companies at the time.

Saab Ed

colm_mcm wrote: »

Rover 75 And freelander too...

Now I stand to be corrected on this one but isn't the fact that everybody thinks Rover used a BMW diesel just a missconception. I always thought that it was more of a relation too Rovers own diesels thn anything to do with BM. Maybe I'm wrong!!!!

colm_mcm

Saab Ed wrote: »

Now I stand to be corrected on this one but isn't the fact that everybody thinks Rover used a BMW diesel just a missconception. I always thought that it was more of a relation too Rovers own diesels thn anything to do with BM. Maybe I'm wrong!!!!

Rover had the l series, but the engines in the 75 and freelander were BMW, afaik, the 75 used different turbo etc to the BMW engine though,

Leonard Hofstadter

colm_mcm wrote: »

Rover had the l series, but the engines in the 75 and freelander were BMW, afaik, the 75 used different turbo etc to the BMW engine though,

Funnily enough the diesels in the 75 and Freelander, which are BMW engines, were actually better than what BMW were using themselves, as far as I know they used a different turbo to what BMW were using and never gave any turbo trouble. I also think they didn't have the dreaded swirl flaps either, but I could be wrong on that.

colm_mcm

Think they used a Mitsubishi turbo and then garrett

Saab Ed

Td5 (Engine Codes 15P and 16P)
By the mid-1990s the Rover Group was looking to rationalise its engine ranges and produce new designs that would be able to meet emissions legislation for the foreseeable future. The recently released K-Series petrol engine range would be extended to cover that sector, but Rover had no in-house diesel engines suitable for both its cars and its 4x4s.[2] The 300Tdi could not be fitted to any of the car range and was about to fall foul of the upcoming Euro III emissions standards. The existing L-Series 2-litre diesel was not suitable for use in Land Rover products and could not be developed into such a unit. It was decided to design a new diesel engine family that could be produced in various capacities and states of tune suitable for all of Rover's needs. The development was codenamed Project Storm and design responsibility was given to Land Rover who were to build the engines.[3] The result was a range of engines using the L-Series as a base—the bore/stroke dimensions were the same and the Storm engine used the same piston and connecting rod assemblies. The Storm utilised Electronic Unit Injection by Lucas (at the time this technology was rare on small-capacity engine, being used only on large commercial vehicles) and a cross-flow aluminium alloy cylinder head on a cast-iron block. The designers had aimed at increasing servicing intervals so the engine incorporated both conventional and centrifugal oil filters. The electronic systems included an 'anti-stall' system to allow heavy loads to be started from rest at idle speed and two programmed operating modes for road and off-road use.[3] The overhead camshaft (operating both valves and the unit injectors) was chain-driven. The Storm design encompassed 4-, 5- and 6-cylinder engines (of 2, 2.5 and 3 litres respectively). In the event the takeover of the Rover Group by BMW, who brought their own range of diesel engines, made the Storm engine largely redundant.[73] Only the 5-cylinder version made it to production as the powerplant for the Defender and the new Discovery Series II as the 'Td5' in 1998. Offering more power and greater refinement than the 300Tdi the Td5 greatly improved the appeal of the Discovery but caused concern amongst many operators of the Defender due to its electronic engine management systems which were considered to be less reliable and more difficult to repair 'in the field' than the mechanical injection systems used on previous Land Rover diesel engines. In deference to these concerns (including those voiced by the British Army) Land Rover kept the 300Tdi in production for fitment to special-order vehicles (see above). It transpired that the Td5's electronics were highly reliable. Early engines suffered two isolated mechanical failures—sudden and complete failure of the oil pump drive and 'cylinder head shuffle' caused by weak retaining studs. Both these faults were fixed within 2 years of the engine starting production and the Td5 is now considered highly reliable. In 2002 the Td5's electronics were updated to improve the low-speed throttle response which had been prone to producing a jerky power delivery in off-road or towing situations. The engine has proved itself on numerous expeditions in hostile terrain (including Land Rover's own G4 Challenge.[74] The engine's mechanical strength and electronic control systems makes the Td5 much more tuneable than the older engines. Numerous aftermarket companies produced tuning upgrades offering as much as 220 horsepower (164 kW). The Td5 was replaced in the Discovery by the AJD-V6 unit in 2004 and the Ford ZSD-424 in the Defender in 2007. Production of the Td5 at Solihull ceased that year making it that last Land Rover-designed-and-built engine

Linky .....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_engines#Td5_.28Engine_Codes_15P_and_16P.29

Sorry bout that. It was the td5 I was thinking off. Everybody seems to think its the same engine as a 525tds.

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Rover had the l series, but the engines in the 75 and freelander were BMW, afaik, the 75 used different turbo etc to the BMW engine though,

The L series did appear in early Freelanders

colm_mcm

RoverJames wrote: »

The L series did appear in early Freelanders

I know, I had the displeasure of driving one back in 2004. Nearly wrote it off pulling out of a junction, one of the most sluggish cars I've ever driven

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

.............. Nearly wrote it off pulling out of a junction, one of the most sluggish cars I've ever driven

If it was really bad below 2000rpm and ok ish above 2000rpm the Maf may well have been goosed Out of spec Mafs on the L series don't show up on diagnostic tests.

Pdfile

Rob C wrote: »

The BMW N47 engine is a peach so thats great news for Toyota. The basic engine one the 320/520D is a 177 BHP 0-60 in 8.3 secs (520D manual) with combined fuel consumption at the mid 50's mark. That's pretty outstanding. And all at the lower tax band too.

BMW have really moved the goalposts with their diesel engines.

vast improvement over the 90's models with the viened turbos ( as used in rover afaik )

PaulKK

captainspeed wrote: »

Down the line though it's a different story - when was the last time anyone heard of a Toyota diesel suffering from swirl flap or turbo failure? When was the last time Toyota allowed several generations of engine suffer from the exact same faults, like BMW's diesels?

What are you talking about "several" generations? It was in the early 150bhp E46 320d and some occurances in the 163bhp 320d for the swirl flaps.

Much of the turbo failure is largely associated with non conformance to servicing schedule.. I.E replacing the crankcase breather at the correct interval. This is not BMWs fault.

Talk about spewing rubbish on the internet.

texros

Toyota using BMW diesel engines?? That's one Toyota I won't buy!!
BMW diesels are great when new, after 400,000 km they become
Big Money Worries!! I know some people with BMW and VW diesels who
are not impressed especially when it comes to the NCT emissions test!!
I have a 2002 Land cruiser with over 220,000 miles, which done heavy work over the years and it passes emissions test every time.
Is there anyone out there with a BMW X5 with similar mileage??

galwaytt

texros wrote: »

Toyota using BMW diesel engines?? That's one Toyota I won't buy!!
BMW diesels are great when new, after 400,000 km they become
Big Money Worries!! I know some people with BMW and VW diesels who
are not impressed especially where it comes to the NCT emissions test!!
I have a 2002 Land cruiser with over 220,000 miles, which done heavy work over the years and it passes emissions test every time.
Is there anyone out there with a BMW X5 with similar mileage??

Holy thread resurrection batman.

Suasdaguna1

galwaytt wrote: »

Holy thread resurrection batman.

Sure no harm......not one mention of the n47s appetite for timing chains.....but like the Porsche 996 ims/rms issues.....you only hear of the goners not of the ones that keeping going.

I own two 520d old/new. 10k miles max max between services.

joujoujou

Golden Shovel for such a deep dig.

Leonard Hofstadter

To try and move this thread somewhat back on topic, the Toyota Verso will be the first Toyota to use a BMW diesel engine.

The 1.6 D-4D will use the outgoing Mini Cooper's diesel engine. I note that BMW aren't giving Toyota their latest diesel engines (since the 1.6 is being replaced by a three cylinder 1.5, and the 2014 Mini Cooper will have the three cylinder lump).

Hopefully, for Toyota's sake, BMW will have finally fixed the timing chain problem, though I suppose since the Toyota will have a transverse engine, it will be much easier (and cheaper) to fix it than it would be in a RWD BMW:D.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-verso-gets-bmw-diesel

Marcusm

captainspeed wrote: »

To try and move this thread somewhat back on topic, the Toyota Verso will be the first Toyota to use a BMW diesel engine.

The 1.6 D-4D will use the outgoing Mini Cooper's diesel engine. I note that BMW aren't giving Toyota their latest diesel engines (since the 1.6 is being replaced by a three cylinder 1.5, and the 2014 Mini Cooper will have the three cylinder lump).

Hopefully, for Toyota's sake, BMW will have finally fixed the timing chain problem, though I suppose since the Toyota will have a transverse engine, it will be much easier (and cheaper) to fix it than it would be in a RWD BMW:D.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-verso-gets-bmw-diesel

But the Mini uses Peugeot Diesel engines (or rather PSA group ones); does this mean that BMW has become a reseller of engines manufactured by a different group. Seems a bizarre corporate strategy.

Leonard Hofstadter

Marcusm wrote: »

But the Mini uses Peugeot Diesel engines (or rather PSA group ones); does this mean that BMW has become a reseller of engines manufactured by a different group. Seems a bizarre corporate strategy.

BMW ditched the PSA diesel when they facelifted Mini a few years ago for a 1.6 litre version of their ticking timebomb otherwise known as the N47 engine, which has been around since 2007. This is the engine that the Verso will be using. The petrol models continue to use the Prince engine.

JohnBoy26

unkel wrote: »

And to think that not so many years ago BMW used a Toyota diesel engine! That said, it was the 1.4 D-4D in the MINI. A mistake. Perhaps good enough for a Toyota Yaris buyer but way too dull for a MINI. It was quickly replaced by a more competent far less reliable HDi diesel from PSA

Fyp

EDIT: Never realised this thread was so old

HandsomeDan

captainspeed wrote: »

BMW ditched the PSA diesel when they facelifted Mini a few years ago for a 1.6 litre version of their ticking timebomb otherwise known as the N47 engine, which has been around since 2007. This is the engine that the Verso will be using. The petrol models continue to use the Prince engine.

Do you get aroused badmouthing BMW engines or something?

What % of N47's suffer chain failure?

If you can't answer then kindly stfu!

bazz26

HandsomeDan wrote: »

Do you get aroused badmouthing BMW engines or something?

What % of N47's suffer chain failure?

If you can't answer then kindly stfu!

Plenty below including those doing plenty of repairs on them:
http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?p=492756

At what percentage do you see it as acceptable to highlight the issue or are you sticking your head in the sand just like BMW?

MetzgerMeister

HandsomeDan wrote: »

Do you get aroused badmouthing BMW engines or something?

What % of N47's suffer chain failure?

If you can't answer then kindly stfu!

He's actually a BMW fan as far as I know but from his post, he was merely stating fact rather than badmouthing BMW for the sake of it.

TestTransmission

texros wrote: »

Toyota using BMW diesel engines?? That's one Toyota I won't buy!!
BMW diesels are great when new, after 400,000 km they become
Big Money Worries!! I know some people with BMW and VW diesels who
are not impressed especially when it comes to the NCT emissions test!!
I have a 2002 Land cruiser with over 220,000 miles, which done heavy work over the years and it passes emissions test every time.
Is there anyone out there with a BMW X5 with similar mileage??

Don't dig up old threads