Fastest marathons - rated by you

RayCun · 04-11-2011 12:01pm #1

I am not going to run a marathon next year. Or possibly even the year after

. But when I do - which are the best marathons for a fast time? (I'm more interested in direct experiences of the people on here than stats)

Flat(ish) course?
Weather conditions likely to be reasonable, not too hot or windy?
Not so busy that you will lose a lot of time at the start?
Big enough to have decent numbers of spectators?

(this has probably come up before and I just can't find it)
(serious 3 year plan setting or idle time-wasting? you decide

)

Woddle · 04-11-2011 12:07pm

Berlin
Berlin
Berlin
Berlin

Brianderunner · 04-11-2011 12:09pm

Berlin's on too early in the Autumn = too hot unless your Kenyan.

Rotterdam & Amsterdam i would say.

menoscemo · 04-11-2011 12:21pm

I saw an Article in a running magazine not so long ago and it listed the top 10 fatest marathons in the world (based on the average completion times of elites compared to other races).

I don't remember the full list but the top 3 were: Berlin, Rotterdam and Milan. London was about 5th.

I was surprised by the Milan one, but I have been keeping an eye on it since, it's run in April every year, had about 4,000 entrants last year and it wouldn't generally be too hot at that time of the year over there....

Woddle · 04-11-2011 12:30pm

Berlin and Rotterdam based on below, although it's missing last weeks Frankfurt time and maybe another couple

Runner (Country) Time Date Location
1. Patrick Makau (Kenya) 2:03:38 Sep 25, 2011 Berlin
2. Haile Gebrselassie (Ethiopia) 2:03:59 Sep 28, 2008 Berlin
3. Duncan Kibet (Kenya) 2:04:27 Apr 5, 2009 Rotterdam
4. James Kwambai (Kenya) 2:04:27 Apr 5, 2009 Rotterdam
5. Patrick Makau (Kenya) 2:04:48 Apr 11, 2010 Rotterdam
6. Paul Tergat (Kenya) 2:04:55 Sep 28, 2003 Berlin
7. Geoffrey Mutai (Kenya) 2:04:55 Apr 11, 2010 Rotterdam
8. Sammy Korir (Kenya) 2:04:56 Sept 28, 2003 Berlin
9. Abel Kirui (Kenya) 2:05:04 Apr 5, 2009 Rotterdam
10. Samuel Wanjiru (Kenya) 2:05:10 Apr 26, 2009 London
11. Vincent Kipruto (Kenya) 2:05:13 Apr 11, 2010 Rotterdam

Top 10 International:
(In order based on ARRS Statistics)
1. Berlin
2. Rotterdam
3. Paris
4. Turin
5. Rome
6. Hamburg
7. Italia (Carpi)
8. Amsterdam
9. Venice
10. London

robinph · 04-11-2011 12:49pm

You have to allow for prize money and WR bonus payments in the calculating of "fastest course" based purely on where the most Kenyans go to run their fast times.

You'd need to look at the number of people coming in behind them as a %'age of the field to get a better idea, but then also discounting enough people dressed up in costumes later on in the likes of London which would also skew the stats. Get hold of peoples predicted times that they put on their application forms and compare that to what they actually did might be fairer, everybody lies afterall. Just if different nationalities lie by the same amount.

RayCun · 04-11-2011 12:52pm

Yeah, I'd be more interested in how people on here rate the marathons they've run.

G-Money · 04-11-2011 12:57pm

Interesting thread. Possibly thinking about Dublin myself but had considered somewhere flatter and faster like Berlin. However chances are I will have to do this by myself so I don't know if I fancy a trip abroad on my own for my first marathon.

robinph · 04-11-2011 1:00pm

RayCun wrote: »

Yeah, I'd be more interested in how people on here rate the marathons they've run.

The times of ART'ists are better gauge of what course is faster than a few under fed Kenyans.

I'd be inclined to think that Rotterdam and Amsterdam would be about as good as you can get for a decent fast flat course. The only slight hills, and that is a very relative term in that part of the world, are when you have to go over a river. Otherwise they are flatter than a very flat thing that has been squished extra flat.

Woddle · 04-11-2011 1:03pm

Here's the second table above in more detail, Dublin is included

Average Race Time Bias- Marathons

Values shown for each marathon are calculated based on the elite runner's performances. For mixed races, the men's and women's RTB values are averaged. The values are given in seconds and represent how much faster (negative values) or slower (positive values) an elite runner would be expected to run at each race.

-68.5 Berlin (GER)
-66.6 Seoul International (KOR)
-66.5 Paris (FRA)
-62.3 Milano (ITA)
-56.4 Hamburg (GER)
-56.3 Debno (POL)
-55.4 Rotterdam (NED)
-52.4 Rome (ITA)
-48.0 Lala (Torreon MEX)
-46.0 Italia (Carpi ITA)
-45.8 Turin (ITA)
-43.2 Marrakech (MAR)
-41.1 Köln (GER)
-38.8 London (ENG)
-37.4 Amsterdam (NED)
-33.6 Fukuoka (JPN)
-29.0 Beppu-Oita (JPN)
-29.0 Dubai (UAE)
-28.1 Osaka Women's (JPN)
-25.9 California Int'l (Sacramento CA/USA)
-25.2 Tokyo International (JPN)
-20.1 Eindhoven (NED)
-19.6 Ottawa (ON/CAN)
-18.8 Beijing (CHN)
-15.4 Venice (ITA)
-11.6 Reggio Emilia (ITA)
-5.6 Houston (TX/USA)
-4.1 Biwa-ko (Otsu JPN)
-1.8 Prague (CZE)
-1.1 Frankfurt (GER)
-0.1 Chicago (IL/USA)
+0.6 Reims (FRA)
+1.4 Grandma's (Duluth MN/USA)
+9.1 Vienna City (AUT)
+10.7 Toronto Waterfront (ON/CAN)
+13.5 Boston (MA/USA)
+21.1 La Rochelle (FRA)
+22.2 Los Angeles (CA/USA)
+22.4 Belgrade (SER)
+23.3 Rock 'N Roll (San Diego CA/USA)
+24.7 Dublin (IRL)
+28.9 Nagoya Women's (JPN)
+31.3 Firenze (ITA)
+31.5 Nagano (JPN)
+33.5 Gold Coast (Brisbane AUS)
+34.9 Cleveland (OH/USA)
+36.2 Twin Cities (St Paul MN/USA)
+38.1 Yokohama Women's (JPN)
+50.2 Rocket City (Huntsville AL/USA)
+52.3 New York City (NY/USA)
+55.4 Baltimore (MD/USA)
+58.2 Enschede (NED)
+64.7 Detroit (MI/USA)
+72.6 Columbus (OH/USA)
+81.8 Istanbul Eurasia (TUR)
+98.3 Stockholm (SWE)
+102.6 Kosice (SVK)
+105.9 Sao Paulo (BRA)
+139.4 Mumbai (IND)
+140.3 Hokkaido (Sapporo JPN)
+165.7 Honolulu (HI/USA)
+174.9 Liberté (Caen FRA)
+182.4 Hong Kong (HKG)
+188.5 Mexico City (MEX)
+328.6 Singapore (SIN)

Notes: The race time bias reflects the difference in times from the expected times of runners on these courses. Negative values indicate the race produces faster than expected times, on the average. Likewise, positive values indicate the race produces slower than expected times, on the average. The race time bias combines the effects of course difficulty and weather conditions to be expected.

Krusty_Clown · 04-11-2011 1:07pm

How come Chicago is so low in the rankings? After Berlin, I would think it is the flattest course I have run. As has been posted on a number of occasions, the course elevation profile looks like:
______________________________/

robinph · 04-11-2011 1:10pm

That table is clearly skewed if they have Boston so close to the average. This year was a freak event in Boston, but despite it being a downhill course it is always claimed to be a slow one by the majority of people who run it as far as I've seen.

Woddle · 04-11-2011 1:12pm

robinph wrote: »

That table is clearly skewed if they have Boston so close to the average. This year was a freak event in Boston, but despite it being a downhill course it is always claimed to be a slow one by the majority of people who run it as far as I've seen.

Table was last updated Dec 2010
http://www.arrs.net/marathons_comparison.php
Might be interesting to compare the prize money list to fastest marathons

Hard Worker · 04-11-2011 1:32pm

Of all the marathons I've ran, I rate London the quickest. Just enough ups and downs to give certain muscles a break, water stations every mile in sports bottles, great crowd support, organisation that leaves every other marathon in division 2, generally decent weather and you can eat food that you are used to.

T runner · 04-11-2011 1:43pm

Top ten in Frankfurt:

There was 14 runners under 2:10 mins which is a record.
A heavy shower just before race start may have added time due to less friction.

May say as much about Kenyan strenght now as a fast course. The timing of the event has to be very attractive for an Irish runner looking for a high probability of favourable conditions on a fast course.

MEN

1. Wilson Kipsang 2:03:42

2. Levy Matebo 2:05:16

3. Albert Matebor 2:05:25

4. Phillip Sanga 2:06:07

5. Robert Kipron Cheruiyot 2:06:29

6. Peter Kirui 2:06:31

7. Dickson Kiptolo 2:07:23

8. Siraj Gena 2:08:31

9. Duncan Koech 2:08:38

10. Henry Sugut 2:08:56

Peckham · 04-11-2011 2:45pm

Not sure if using the elite times is a fair basis for identifying a fast marathon for mid-pack runners. The elites get a clear open road, us mere mortals have to deal with traffic (as well as qualifying standards/lotteries in the case of London, Boston, New York etc.).

I'd say a bit of research would find a marathon with a smaller field in UK (or even Ireland) that would be perfect for running a good time. A quick search of the Runners World forums throws up Chester and Abingdon (both October).

Mind you, +1 to Hard Worker's recommendation of London. Far and away the best/most enjoyable of the marathons I've run (Dublin, Berlin, London).

Lex Luther · 04-11-2011 2:47pm

I'm no expert but from my experience I'd had to throw Edinburgh out there .....probably flatest course I've ever run...big enough crowd running for support not too big that people trip over each other, weather not an issue ( but I believe wind can be a problem for the coastal finish.)
Far quicker in my view than Dublin and light years quicker than Boston..

( but I haven't yet done Berlin, Rotterdam, Amsterdam etc so my opinion is of limited over all value probably !)

LL

menoscemo · 04-11-2011 2:48pm

Oisin11178 swears that Blackpool is the fastest marathon he has ever run (and he has run many

)

TakeaBowSon · 04-11-2011 2:52pm

Lex Luther wrote: »

I'm no expert but from my experience I'd had to throw Edinburgh out there .....probably flatest course I've ever run...big enough crowd running for support not too big that people trip over each other, weather not an issue ( but I believe wind can be a problem for the coastal finish.)
Far quicker in my view than Dublin and light years quicker than Boston..

( but I haven't yet done Berlin, Rotterdam, Amsterdam etc so my opinion is of limited over all value probably !)

LL

I would have to respectfully disagree here.

I ran this marathon in 2010. The temperature was ridculously hot - well into the 20's. I believe it was also very hot the previous year (it's on in May).

I found the course to be terrible. An out and back course where you are running parallel to people going in the opposite direction.

Organisation was poor (big problems getting back into the city after) and the Expo is literally a couple of tents set up in the middle of a park.

One to avoid in my opinion!

--amadeus-- · 04-11-2011 3:00pm

For ordinary runners there is so much more to a fast course than just elevation. For example Paris is flat and claims (or used to) more sub 3 finishers than any other marathon but I wouldn't recommend it as a fast marathon for the average punter because it has a huge entry and has a lot of narrow sections giving a lot of congestion on the course. Which knackers any chance you have of a good time. I believe the same applies to London - if you get a GFA place then I am told it's brilliant, clear roads, flat, great organisation and support. Start back with teh masses though and I have heard of people being slowed literally to a stop at turns even a few miles into the race.

So I think it depends on your ability - if you can get into a pen at the front of the big city races based on a past performance then looking at elite times and elevation is probably as good a guide as any because other factors won't affect you. If you are midpack (say 4 hours+) then you need a bit more subtlety and balance flat courses with wide routes or smaller fields and making sure that its a well established race that is well organised (to avoid issues with aid stations running short, for example).

Of teh races I have run, rated for PB potential:

1 - Rotterdam; flat, brilliantly organised, good crowd but no congestion
2 - Amsterdam; flat, well organised but dull course with a tricky surface between 14 - 18 miles
3 - Berlin; flat but crowded, I wasn't a fan of the aid stations either and can be hit or miss with weather
4 - Paris; flat enough but you need to be at the front of the pack, if you are not aiming at sub 3 then I'd avoid as the congestion will kill you
5 - Dublin; not hilly but not flat either, good support and easy travel, congested in first couple of miles for slower runners but managable. If you are 3:30+ you'll be faster here than Paris
6 - Longford; no crowd support and when I ran it there were a lot of long but gradual slopes that drain you. Not much in the way of aid stations either, but that may have changed since 2006. Can be hot as well
7 - Cork; I think they have changed the route but criminally hilly when I ran it and can be hot

Oisin11178 · 04-11-2011 7:18pm

Peckham wrote: »

Not sure if using the elite times is a fair basis for identifying a fast marathon for mid-pack runners. The elites get a clear open road, us mere mortals have to deal with traffic (as well as qualifying standards/lotteries in the case of London, Boston, New York etc.).

I'd say a bit of research would find a marathon with a smaller field in UK (or even Ireland) that would be perfect for running a good time. A quick search of the Runners World forums throws up Chester and Abingdon (both October).

Mind you, +1 to Hard Worker's recommendation of London. Far and away the best/most enjoyable of the marathons I've run (Dublin, Berlin, London).

Yeah your spot on there. Got a big pb over in blackpool last year. Flatter than anything in Ireland by a fair bit.

Pronator · 04-11-2011 8:17pm

Edinburgh is fast and at a good time of year. Rotterdam is very flat but drinks in cups means its difficult if you are going for a time.

Nobody has mentioned the Connemarathon, Ray O'Connor will be disappointed:D

Clearlier · 04-11-2011 9:27pm

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Yeah your spot on there. Got a big pb over in blackpool last year. Flatter than anything in Ireland by a fair bit.

It was really, really fast in 2008 (a mile short).

I've heard that Edinburgh can often be windy and isn't considered a fast marathon for those near the front. Might be different further back where there's a bit more shelter. It is a net downhill course though which they make a big thing of.

Here's a link to a list of marathons run by an American where he assesses marathons relative to each other timewise for a 3hr runner.

BeepBeep67 · 04-11-2011 9:52pm

Didn't they mention one in the UK on Marathon Talk, on around the same as DCM - Abigndon <spelling>, so fast the locals call it the Abigndon 25?

Brianderunner · 04-11-2011 9:56pm

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Didn't they mention one in the UK on Marathon Talk, on around the same as DCM - Abigndon <spelling>, so fast the locals call it the Abigndon 25?

Yep Abingdon (mentioned above by Peckham), just south of Oxford. Runs by the Thames so it has to be flat. Good one for a pb so say my clubmates.

Oisin11178 · 04-11-2011 10:07pm

Clearlier wrote: »

It was really, really fast in 2008 (a mile short).

I've heard that Edinburgh can often be windy and isn't considered a fast marathon for those near the front. Might be different further back where there's a bit more shelter. It is a net downhill course though which they make a big thing of.

Here's a link to a list of marathons run by an American where he assesses marathons relative to each other timewise for a 3hr runner.

If a course being short ended a races existence, many races in Ireland including alot of big ones would be gone. It was spot on the year i ran it.
Also heard abington is very fast, sells out fast and has a big waiting list if i remember correctly.

Clearlier · 04-11-2011 10:23pm

Oisin11178 wrote: »

If a course being short ended a races existence, many races in Ireland including alot of big ones would be gone. It was spot on the year i ran it.
Also heard abington is very fast, sells out fast and has a big waiting list if i remember correctly.

Not suggesting it wasn't the right distance when your ran it Oisin. Apologies if it appeared that I was.

A clubmate of mine did Abingdon this year and recommends it. For Irish people though it's on at the same time as Dublin. It fills up very early (about April/May IIRC) but it does allow transfers and there are always a few numbers going on the runners world forum.

Oisin11178 · 04-11-2011 10:48pm

Na didnt think you meant that at all. I say the fall out of the short course, the field was smaller when i ran it because of it.
Heard good things about wolverhamton marathon as well, meant to be fairly flat.
It depends what you want from a marathon, if big crowds and support and big running fields does it for you them Berlin, Amsterdam or one of the American big ones is probably best.
For me the 2 important things are well stocked water stations and am accurate course. Also i dont mind a bit of rise either. I cant fault Barcelona to be honest. Water stations were class. Start was excellent and no congestion. Nice fair course course.
For those on a limited budget its not the cheapest though.

Lex Luther · 07-11-2011 3:29pm

TakeaBowSon wrote: »

I would have to respectfully disagree here.

I ran this marathon in 2010. The temperature was ridculously hot - well into the 20's. I believe it was also very hot the previous year (it's on in May).

I found the course to be terrible. An out and back course where you are running parallel to people going in the opposite direction.

Organisation was poor (big problems getting back into the city after) and the Expo is literally a couple of tents set up in the middle of a park.

One to avoid in my opinion!

yeah you're right in many respects ....i ran it in 2010 and it was ridiculously hot ( though I did pb which is probably why I have happy memories).
however whatever about the expo andorganisation and overall attractiveness of the course etc ..I'd still say its a flat, fast course ( I liked the long straights but that might be just me) and there's a fair chance that Edinburgh in early May wont always end up being 24 degrees........

ThePiedPiper · 07-11-2011 4:14pm

Of the races I've ran, I'd have the following list in terms of PB potential

1. Berlin
2. Seville
3. Amsterdam
4. Paris
5. Dublin
6. New York
7. Boston
8. Connemara

To be honest, the top 4 are in a league of their own. Berlin was so flat, it felt downhill the whole way. Seville was super flat, wide roads, no congestion but lots of fast runners, good drinks stations. Amsterdam, as mentioned is nearly all good apart from the dead miles from 18/19 to 23. The path on the far side of the river is narrow enough but not problematic if you're running a decent pace. Paris is a great race but congestion even at sub 3 pace is a problem and the surface for the first mile and last mile is cobbled.

Dublin does not have the PB potential of the others with some sneaky hills that have managed to derail me twice out of four runnings. Personally, I ran New York and Boston for the experience, didn't really have an agressive goal and in Conn, well I was just stupid and didn't leave anything in the tank for the last 6 miles.

Trampas · 30-10-2012 1:50pm

Just finished my 1st so looking at #2 Any other courses to mention here?

Valencia? Barca?

Looking on the flat side over hills.

Speed I am not as worried if not fast due to crowding

Fastest marathons - rated by you

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