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Poisoning/Shooting of Birds of Prey - Please read guidelines in first post

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    #62
    LostCovey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭LostCovey


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Yes but the vast majority of the occupants of ribbon developments and one -off housing in rural Ireland have no connection with farming of any description. Indeed the proportion of the rural population employed directly in farming continues to plummet year on year. As regards the "CSI" approach , the people I have spoke to close to the projects have hopes that this will indeed improve the conviction rate and help to build up a dossier that will allow them to "target" problem areas in terms of farm inspection regimes, audits, monitoring etc. I'm not saying its the whole answer but these minority of rogue farmers etc. (many of whom are in receipt of EU/taxpayer monies for various CAP schemes) will come increasingly to the attention of the authorities as cross-compliance measures in respect of farm supports become increasingly tighter going on the latest developments in Europe on this matter as the deadline for the major overhaul of EU farm supports approaches.

    Birdnuts,

    we are on the same side. I am not against such a system, just very doubtful that anything will tell my sheep from Paddy-Joe's next door, and even if they do, they still won't prove that I put compound x in the carcass.

    And to steddyeddy, yes, by all means if crime-fighting works then I would be all for it. I would go beyond jailing them to be honest....... However the experience so far is that it has been impossible to gather enough evidence for a prosecution, and with all due respect to Birdnuts' suggestion, I do not expect that will change anytime soon.

    Some wildlife poisonings originate in one-off/ribbon houses that have nothing to do with farming.

    I was making the point that the rural population is bigger and more complex than ever, which muddies the water.

    Sorry to be so pessimistic.

    LostCovey


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    #63
    Feargal as Luimneach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭Feargal as Luimneach


    Was talking to a farmer I know today, I do work for him. Noticed two rabbits (dead a couple of days) in the front of his jeep. I asked him what he was doing with the rabbits. He then informed me he was going to use them to poison foxes. I informed him that was now illegal. He then said that he won't use them to poison foxes. I told him I would dispose of the rabbits for him. "No" he said "I need them", he drove off laughing. The same fella is in the REPS. What a Joke.....
    fighting0040.gif


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    #64
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Well funnily enough there was supposed to be a prosecution of a farmer recently in connection with the bird poisonings.


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    #65
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,658 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »
    Was talking to a farmer I know today, I do work for him. Noticed two rabbits (dead a couple of days) in the front of his jeep. I asked him what he was doing with the rabbits. He then informed me he was going to use them to poison foxes. I informed him that was now illegal. He then said that he won't use them to poison foxes. I told him I would dispose of the rabbits for him. "No" he said "I need them", he drove off laughing. The same fella is in the REPS. What a Joke.....
    fighting0040.gif

    Not only is this clowns illegal activities a direct threat to endangered wildlife, its also an unacceptable abuse of taxpayers money. People like this are a direct threat to the reputation of Irish farming:mad: . Someone needs to have a chat with his REPS planner or the Dept - that will soon wipe the grin off his face!!


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    #66
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Not only is this clowns illegal activities a direct threat to endangered wildlife, its also an unacceptable abuse of taxpayers money. People like this are a direct threat to the reputation of Irish farming:mad: . Someone needs to have a chat with his REPS planner or the Dept - that will soon wipe the grin off his face!!

    Hes breaking the law pure and simple, the threat of grant reduction will be the only effective measure i think.


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    #67
    Ditch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »
    He drove off laughing.


    And so he might. And now what are ye going to do about it ....? Well, nothing, most likely. Because there's really damn all ye can do, is there?

    Take this as our test case. Multiply it by who knows how many more 'Laughing Boys' around the country. And, all of them equally immune to prosecution.

    Or, if he isn't? Perhaps someone could instigate what ever action will see him pay? I'll not hold my breath .....

    See? We have a live one. We know his name and where he lives. We know he's doing exactly what kills these eagles. And what can we do about it? Absolutely nothing. Just sit here and type, impotently, at each other.

    Might as well accept we can't stop them doing as they like and stop throwing good eagles after bad.


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    #68
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,658 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Ditch wrote: »
    And so he might. And now what are ye going to do about it ....? Well, nothing, most likely. Because there's really damn all ye can do, is there?

    Take this as our test case. Multiply it by who knows how many more 'Laughing Boys' around the country. And, all of them equally immune to prosecution.

    Or, if he isn't? Perhaps someone could instigate what ever action will see him pay? I'll not hold my breath .....

    See? We have a live one. We know his name and where he lives. We know he's doing exactly what kills these eagles. And what can we do about it? Absolutely nothing. Just sit here and type, impotently, at each other.

    Might as well accept we can't stop them doing as they like and stop throwing good eagles after bad.

    Of course its tough to prosecute - but every case is different and there have been succesfull prosecutions for these type of crimes in other countries. Its all about applying pressure in the right areas, both financial and legal. I also know for a fact that vigliliance by a combination of NPWS people and other relevant depts/bodies have indentified and put pressure on a number of serial offenders in both Kerry and Donegal who now know they are being monitored closely. They are also making progress on a number of recent cases which for obvious reasons I can't go into here but this fight certainly is not totally without hope at this stage:)


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    #69
    Ditch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    relevant depts/bodies have indentified and put pressure on a number of serial offenders in both Kerry and Donegal who now know they are being monitored closely.


    Again, that's depressing. The fact that these idiots are known. " a number of serial offenders " ?! Dear god! How many of these ****s are out there, and obviously just flipping 'us' the finger as they carry right on doing what they like ~ and Laughing at 'us'.

    Sorry. I'm not wishing to wave the flag of defeatism here. Not at all. Only, within the restraints of what we've been told we might or might not say here ..... well; I guess my true opinion / 'strength of feeling' is simply not expressible on this thread.


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    #70
    E39MSport
    Registered Users Posts: 3,730 ✭✭✭E39MSport


    There's a sign on a tree near Donadea saying 'Land Poisoned'. I think I remember reading on here after the recent legislation that signs like these should no longer be in place (because the poisoning should not be taking place). Is that true?

    I saw it yesterday but can't find it on google maps.


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    #71
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,658 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    E39MSport wrote: »
    ). Is that true?

    Yes - I would pass on your observation to your local NPWS ranger who will deal with it in strictest confidence.


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    #72
    homerhop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,953 ✭✭✭homerhop


    I emailed the local paper editor about running adverts from farmers at the start of the shooting season saying lands poisoned and informed him that it is now illegal. I got no reply and seen nothing in the paper afterwards stating that it was illegal or notifying readers they would no longer run such ads.


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    #73
    Ditch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    Can they not simply get round that one by saying they mean they have Alpha C 'sandwiches' down, for crows and pigeons. Or even rodenticides, for rats?


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    #74
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,658 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Ditch wrote: »
    Can they not simply get round that one by saying they mean they have Alpha C 'sandwiches' down, for crows and pigeons. Or even rodenticides, for rats?

    Its now illegal to use poison against all bird species, including crows and pigeons - rodent baits are only licensed for use indoors and/or in situations were other species will not have access to bait eg. covered bait-boxes etc. People will probably be familiar with the bait boxes used by the likes of Rentokill etc.


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    #75
    Ditch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    Is it? Well, that's fine by me. I've never used it but, the last I heard was when they said no more meat baits to be used.

    Could they not claim their signage warned of rodenticide though? As much as to say; " Please don't let ye Dog roam in this land. I'd hate it to get a feast of flo' "

    Come to that, could they not say they just put it up as a bluff, to ward off people with Dogs?

    And also; Who's to say the likes of Laughing Boy would even wish to put up such a sign?

    Sign doesn't mean it's happening. No sign doesn't mean it's not.


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    #76
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,658 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Ditch wrote: »
    Is it? Well, that's fine by me. I've never used it but, the last I heard was when they said no more meat baits to be used.

    Could they not claim their signage warned of rodenticide though? As much as to say; " Please don't let ye Dog roam in this land. I'd hate it to get a feast of flo' "

    .

    Law was updated late last year - see my edited post above on rodenticides:)


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    #77
    Ditch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    People will probably be familiar with the bait boxes used by the likes of Rentokill etc.


    I'm intimately familiar with such boxes. I own a store room so full of them I'm tripping over them.

    I also see the huge stacks of buckets of " Storm " in the local creamery dwindle away as the couple of " Endorats " boxes on offer sit there and gather dust.

    As a friend and neighbouring farmer asked me, in all sincerity, some years ago; " Why would I want to call you in, Ditch? Every year, the rats come into my farm yard. I crumble up some Storm and chuck it down. No more rats! "

    Now, he and I are both old enough to know I'm never going to convince him to give a monkeys about 'the environment'. No Way is he going to hire me, to do it 'properly'.

    And I'm sure he'll consider he has more pressing things to do than wander around searching for dead rats. " No more rats. " He thinks they just vanish into thin air.

    No way on gods little green earth is he going to shell out for dozens of 'proper' boxes. And, if no one's caught him " chucking it down " in the last fifty years? It's my certain guess that he'll just keep doing so.

    Anyway, this is like a game of Scalectrix. Fun for a minute. But repetitively going round in circles soon gets old.

    Your story appears to be that ye have this inside track ~ which ye can't talk about, now ye've mentioned it more than once (:confused:) What ever. And that these serial Laughing Boys are being " closely monitored " and they'll presumably, be laughing the other sides of their faces when someone turns up and tells them to take their signs down.

    My view is that it's only a matter of time before another BOP turns up dead. Then we can all come back here and say ~ what's the official line? " My heart sunk when I read that :( ".

    My heart tells me there's another way of spending some of the money and stopping Laughing Boy in his tracks. But, I'm over ruled on mentioning it. I'm sure some of your own " Close Sources " must have thought of it too?

    Hey ho. It's just frustrating, attempting to discuss such a subject when ones views must remain so restricted, but there it is.

    Maybe, if you and I met in a pub, I'd say what's on my mind and you'd say, " F**king right! :D " and maybe be able to explain why that course isn't taken.

    Meanwhile; Scalectrix .....


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    #78
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,658 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Ditch wrote: »
    I'm intimately familiar with such boxes. I own a store room so full of them I'm tripping over them.

    I also see the huge stacks of buckets of " Storm " in the local creamery dwindle away as the couple of " Endorats " boxes on offer sit there and gather dust.

    As a friend and neighbouring farmer asked me, in all sincerity, some years ago; " Why would I want to call you in, Ditch? Every year, the rats come into my farm yard. I crumble up some Storm and chuck it down. No more rats! "

    Now, he and I are both old enough to know I'm never going to convince him to give a monkeys about 'the environment'. No Way is he going to hire me, to do it 'properly'.

    And I'm sure he'll consider he has more pressing things to do than wander around searching for dead rats. " No more rats. " He thinks they just vanish into thin air.

    No way on gods little green earth is he going to shell out for dozens of 'proper' boxes. And, if no one's caught him " chucking it down " in the last fifty years? It's my certain guess that he'll just keep doing so.

    Anyway, this is like a game of Scalectrix. Fun for a minute. But repetitively going round in circles soon gets old.

    Your story appears to be that ye have this inside track ~ which ye can't talk about, now ye've mentioned it more than once (:confused:) What ever. And that these serial Laughing Boys are being " closely monitored " and they'll presumably, be laughing the other sides of their faces when someone turns up and tells them to take their signs down.

    My view is that it's only a matter of time before another BOP turns up dead. Then we can all come back here and say ~ what's the official line? " My heart sunk when I read that :( ".

    My heart tells me there's another way of spending some of the money and stopping Laughing Boy in his tracks. But, I'm over ruled on mentioning it. I'm sure some of your own " Close Sources " must have thought of it too?

    Hey ho. It's just frustrating, attempting to discuss such a subject when ones views must remain so restricted, but there it is.

    Maybe, if you and I met in a pub, I'd say what's on my mind and you'd say, " F**king right! :D " and maybe be able to explain why that course isn't taken.

    Meanwhile; Scalectrix .....

    I hear what your sayin bud but most householders have the sense to use sections of old wavin pipes and the likes when using bait outside to safeguard their own pets and not waste expensive baits. Also more people are using traps due to problems with rodents dieing in pipes and wall linings leading to very unpleasent smells.

    PS: Listen, there is no doubt more BOP's will die this spring but I'm hoping that the total will be less then last year on the basis that black spots have been identified and vigilence increased as I mentioned in a previous post


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    #79
    Ditch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Ditch


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    PS: Listen, there is no doubt more BOP's will die this spring but I'm hoping that the total will be less then last year on the basis that black spots have been identified and vigilence increased as I mentioned in a previous post


    I'm up to pace on what people are doing about rodents. It's 'what I do'. Finger's on that pulse alright ;)

    Listen; I'm gonna PM ye. This whole issue just So boils my water, I have to clear my chest. Maybe we can communicate better in the back room? :)


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    #80
    Mothman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Mothman


    The Buzzard article has been moved to Buzzard Thread
    Thanks to E39MSport for bring it to our attention.


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    #81
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Ditch wrote: »
    Is it? Well, that's fine by me. I've never used it but, the last I heard was when they said no more meat baits to be used.

    Could they not claim their signage warned of rodenticide though? As much as to say; " Please don't let ye Dog roam in this land. I'd hate it to get a feast of flo' "

    Come to that, could they not say they just put it up as a bluff, to ward off people with Dogs?

    And also; Who's to say the likes of Laughing Boy would even wish to put up such a sign?

    Sign doesn't mean it's happening. No sign doesn't mean it's not.
    Ditch is correct, here is the wording of the new law;
    "A person shall not place, cause to be placed or permit to be placed or

    have with him or her any poisoned or anaesthetic bait that is animal or contains animal substance or other animal derivative in any place to capture, kill, poison, stupefy, anaesthetise, harm or injure or where it is likely to capture, kill, poison, stupefy, anaesthetise, harm or injure:
    (i) any species referred to in Article 1 of the Birds Directive, or
    (ii) any species of wild fauna listed in Annexes IV(a) and V(a) to the
    Habitats Directive,
    except in accordance with a licence."

    If you suspect that someone is leaving poisoned meat out, phone the local wildlife ranger and let them sort it out. They have the power to enter and search premises. If they don't find anything, no problem.


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    #82
    trebor28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭trebor28


    anybody see this?
    http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Publications/eWings/eWingsIssue23August2011/BuzzardsfoundpoisonednearRoscrea/tabid/1194/Default.aspx

    absolutely scandalous!
    the level that these lads are going to to succeed is disgusting!


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    #83
    snowstreams
    Registered Users Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭snowstreams


    I just read that article there alright.
    Absolutely crazy that they came back to the same scene. Its getting to the stage that you would nearly need to set up cameras to catch whoever did it.
    Who would do such a thing? Sounds like the act of one crazy cruel individual.


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    #84
    trebor28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭trebor28


    snowstreams wrote: »
    I just read that article there alright.
    Absolutely crazy that they came back to the same scene. Its getting to the stage that you would nearly need to set up cameras to catch whoever did it.
    Who would do such a thing? Sounds like the act of one crazy cruel individual.

    ignorant uninformed people only.

    i have heard local hunters comment on a local Buzzard, thinking it was a Hen Harrier and saying if they got near it they would shoot it.
    their reasoning... that it would kill the young pheasants that they put out to shoot the following winter!

    edit: yes i would have though they might have just took away the pigeons and then waited to see would some one comeback and then catch them in the act!
    cops obviously wouldnt do it, but some volunteers might have!


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    #85
    snowstreams
    Registered Users Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭snowstreams


    Yes, they would need some volunteers to hide quietly in the bushes with a camera.
    I suppose the volunteers would only be new to this kind of crime, so they might start the surveillance of traps in the future.


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    #86
    Mothman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Mothman


    trebor28 wrote: »
    anybody see this?
    http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/Publications/eWings/eWingsIssue23August2011/BuzzardsfoundpoisonednearRoscrea/tabid/1194/Default.aspx

    absolutely scandalous!
    the level that these lads are going to to succeed is disgusting!
    This is extraordinarily callous.
    ....this was a particularly abhorrent incident, as live pigeons were tethered to the ground as bait, their bodies coated with poison and their wings clipped to prevent any chance of escape....
    The farmer was equally enraged: “I had absolutely no problem with these birds. They have been around for at least the last three years and have done nobody any harm, and they have not caused me or any of the other farmers in the area any problems whatsoever. I gave nobody permission to come on my land and lay down poison, and whoever did so was trespassing.”

    A Sparrowhawk was a victim as well. :mad:

    I still think it is of note that this thread has not been updated since February, but I'm struggling to restrain myself from typing stuff that would have me banned from here...:mad::mad:


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    #87
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Mothman wrote: »
    This is extraordinarily callous.




    A Sparrowhawk was a victim as well. :mad:

    I still think it is of note that this thread has not been updated since February, but I'm struggling to restrain myself from typing stuff that would have me banned from here...:mad::mad:

    Live pigeons used as bait :(. If I could ask those who did this anything it would be why.


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    #88
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,436 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    :mad: Grrrrrrrrr


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    #89
    trebor28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭trebor28


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Live pigeons used as bait :(. If I could ask those who did this anything it would be why.

    i would ask them left arm or right arm!


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    #90
    LostCovey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭LostCovey


    Mothman wrote: »
    This is extraordinarily callous.




    A Sparrowhawk was a victim as well. :mad:

    I still think it is of note that this thread has not been updated since February, but I'm struggling to restrain myself from typing stuff that would have me banned from here...:mad::mad:

    I could be accused of a lot of things (!) but I am definitely not soft on poisoning.

    HOWEVER

    It has to be said that 2011 has been vastly better than 2010, certainly a lot fewer eagles killed this year so far (nearly afraid to say this, but the spring has passed). Things are getting better not worse.

    I think the problem that is well on the way to being fixed is the issue of casual reckless (but not really malicious) poisoning by people who knew no better, don't have a gun or a larsen trap, and want to control foxes and crows by the laziest and least imaginative means possible: put some really harmful chemical into something edible and feck it out into the field.

    They did a huge amount of damage, but I think a corner has been turned as far as they are concerned. The message has got through. And lets face it the terminally unimaginative are not an easy demographic for PR. However, it seems they have seen a little light.

    So what are left are the hard core malicious few, and no amount of education and public awareness will work here. They might possibly be pigeon fans, they might be self-styled gamekeepers, but one way or another they are recidivist criminals specialising in wildlife crime.

    Anyone who will do what was described above with the pigeons has decided to do :

    - do that to a live creature
    - get their hands on carbofuran (banned for a decade) to poison wildlife (it has no other use and all food is tested for it)
    - deliberately kill birds of prey including sparrowhawks and buzzards
    - take the chance that anyone or anything could get poisoned accidentally, including pets, children

    These people have to be caught, prosecuted and jailed.

    I am not holding my breath.

    LostCovey


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    #91
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Of course its tough to prosecute - but every case is different and there have been succesfull prosecutions for these type of crimes in other countries. Its all about applying pressure in the right areas, both financial and legal. I also know for a fact that vigliliance by a combination of NPWS people and other relevant depts/bodies have indentified and put pressure on a number of serial offenders in both Kerry and Donegal who now know they are being monitored closely. They are also making progress on a number of recent cases which for obvious reasons I can't go into here but this fight certainly is not totally without hope at this stage:)

    Where are you getting your info from?


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