Coillte "fire sale" & Bertie Ahern

theroad · 17-12-2010 10:40PM #1

This surfaced on another forum last week: the McCarthy report raised the prospect of selling off Coillte - in my opinion, a fantastically mis-managed and secretive state-owned private company (but that's another story.) Now a private wealth fund chaired by Bertie Ahern is not denying the prospect of buying it.

Coillte owns 7% of Ireland. It is nominally valued at €1.2bn, but that's just the price of the land (around €1,000 an acre) and not the value of the trees growing on it, nor the mineral resources underneath it.

Of course, this could be scaremongering, but €1.2bn would be handy money for a government looking to shore up its expenditures and Coillte is a drain on the exchequer.

The Woodland League sees it like this: "we are facing a situation where a company has so mismanaged its millions of funds in grants and payments that it is in debt, that this same company has, in 21 years, made virtually no return to the exchequer, and that now, a former Taoiseach, privy to Coillte's real worth (including geological) is attempting to sell it, and one million acres of Ireland, to Swiss financiers."

hmmm · 17-12-2010 11:27PM

I don't buy into the conspiracy theories, if it is to be sold it should be valued properly however.

What worries me about Coillte is that much of the land they own is the most beautiful parts of our country. If it is sold it has to be on the basis that they do not despoil the landscape and that they allow free access to recreational users through their lands. We can't have a situation as exists in some parts of the country where foreigners have closed off their land to Irish people.

Cookie_Monster · 18-12-2010 11:48AM

I think Coillte are fairly poor at what they do but selling off the land is the wrong option, especially if someone like Bertie is involved, you know it will be well dodgy.

It should operate like the Luas, state owns the infrastructure but gives a licence to a private company to manage it. This would allow us to retain ownership of huge tracts of the country while earning a % cut of the profit the private company makes on the management of it or simply a flat fee for access. Open access can remain in place apart from areas being actively worked on.

later12 · 18-12-2010 12:12PM

I would agree with the above, or else allow a private company to invest as a minority shareholder.

How David Gunning could have earned €417,000 last year - which is more than Barack Obama's salary - is beyond comprehension.

We do need competitive salaries in the semi states, nevertheless I think even a €200,000 cap would have been more than adequate.

20-12-2010 12:11AM

If they sell 7% of the country off at €1,000 an acre it would be the biggest heist ever

History book stuff!

Sleepy · 20-12-2010 09:35AM

It reads like a Lex Luthor plot from a Superman comic alright...

Cookie Monster has the right of this: scrap Coilte, hire a private management company to provide the talent to generate income from the land and settle on a 50-50 cut of the profits.

bamboozle · 20-12-2010 10:51AM

theroad wrote: »

This surfaced on another forum last week: the McCarthy report raised the prospect of selling off Coillte - in my opinion, a fantastically mis-managed and secretive state-owned private company (but that's another story.) Now a private wealth fund chaired by Bertie Ahern is not denying the prospect of buying it.

Coillte owns 7% of Ireland. It is nominally valued at €1.2bn, but that's just the price of the land (around €1,000 an acre) and not the value of the trees growing on it, nor the mineral resources underneath it.

Of course, this could be scaremongering, but €1.2bn would be handy money for a government looking to shore up its expenditures and Coillte is a drain on the exchequer.

The Woodland League sees it like this: "we are facing a situation where a company has so mismanaged its millions of funds in grants and payments that it is in debt, that this same company has, in 21 years, made virtually no return to the exchequer, and that now, a former Taoiseach, privy to Coillte's real worth (including geological) is attempting to sell it, and one million acres of Ireland, to Swiss financiers."

i thought Coillte was profitable?

eoineen · 20-12-2010 11:39AM

Cough cough. Corrib gas field.

handlemaster · 20-12-2010 02:58PM

coillte's real value is the Land and its ability to provide renewable energy such as wood chippings and wind power.Also to a lesser extent telecommunications masts

feicim · 20-12-2010 06:07PM

hmmm wrote: »

I don't buy into the conspiracy theories, if it is to be sold it should be valued properly however.
.

Thats a subjective term with two opposing definitions.

Valued so that Bertie Aherns & co, can make a profit

or

valued so the Irish taxpayer gets a good return on its assets.

I think we can all guess what the result of this one will be.

Imagine, Berties reward for his part in the downfall of Ireland could be to take possesion of 7% of it.

Aisling Murphy · 12-01-2011 01:11PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I think Coillte are fairly poor at what they do but selling off the land is the wrong option, especially if someone like Bertie is involved, you know it will be well dodgy.

It should operate like the Luas, state owns the infrastructure but gives a licence to a private company to manage it. This would allow us to retain ownership of huge tracts of the country while earning a % cut of the profit the private company makes on the management of it or simply a flat fee for access. Open access can remain in place apart from areas being actively worked on.

I totally agree with you. I can't believe that the 'powers that be' are again making
decisions like selling off 7% of the citizens land without any consultation. Who gives them the right to make decisions like this? Has anyone considered what it is going to cost this country in terms of the loss of carbon credits? No matter how much money they seek for our land, it is not theirs to sell. They are merely the caretakers, albeit incompetent ones, on behalf of the people. I detect the stench of corruption here!
Why is there nothing in the media about this? There should be uproar and the strongest opposition possible to this ridiculous proposal.

macannrb · 12-01-2011 01:23PM

They have also clocked up 90bn of debt without asking us

They have put 70bn of additional debt, into the banks, without asking us

And bertie has been behind a lot of it, so it really doesnt surprise me that "the powers that be" would do something like this

Aisling Murphy · 12-01-2011 01:56PM

Is it just me or does anyone else feel as outraged about this as I do?
My head is going to explode...I don't know how much more I can take of the constant revelations that are becoming a daily occurrence in this country? Have we all become so beaten down and desensitised that we feel too powerless and downtrodden to even protest? Where is the civil unrest and rebellion? Have we become so 'battered' we feel it's futile?
THE LAND BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE AND IS NOT FOR SALE! The IMF and ECB own a big enough part of us as it is. When do we say 'ENOUGH'.
:mad:

macannrb · 12-01-2011 06:49PM

plenty of people are outraged and can't understand how the powers that be have no shame for the destruction of the country over the last 2-3 years.

Most havent a clue how bad it is. Its only when you lose a job, or start thinking of the future of the country that you realise how bad it is.

Didn't Churchill say - The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter

Seth Brundle · 12-01-2011 06:56PM

bamboozle wrote: »

i thought Coillte was profitable?

as below...

Group turnover fell by €42.6m (17.1%) during 2009 to €206.9m, principally due to the difficult trading environment in the construction sector that resulted in a sharp fall in the price of logs and panel products. The fall in the price of logs occurred despite a 5% increase in sales volumes as sawmill customers moved into the UK market. Demand for panel products remained constant during 2009 however, movements in the sterling exchange rate had an adverse impact on the net sales price achieved. Export sales account for 53.8% of turnover and 70% of this figure is sold into the UK market.

Profit after tax fell by 54% from €9.2m in 2008 to €4.2m in 2009. The results include an exceptional profit of €18.5m (2008: €0.5m), therefore there was an underlying loss on trading activities of €14.3m in 2009 compared with a profit of €8.7m in 2008. The decline in profitability had a significant impact on cash flow and the Group responded by taking a number of initiatives designed to maintain core debt at existing levels.

http://annualreport2009.coillte.ie/index.php?id=50

later12 · 12-01-2011 07:06PM

The above indicates that Coillte are profitable... am i missing something?

Seth Brundle · 12-01-2011 07:14PM

later10 wrote: »

The above indicates that Coillte are profitable... am i missing something?

It makes a few bob but is worth (because of the land assets) 1.2bn.
Colm McCarthy (An Bord Snip Nua) recommended that it be sold to help pay off the mismanagement that occurred largely under Bertie's watch.

theroad · 12-01-2011 10:08PM

Another aspect of this is the geological survey that Coillte commissioned when it came into existence, the results of which have not been publicly disclosed.

Coillte is a private company, see; its only shareholders are the Ministers of Agriculture and Finance. Because it is "private", it is not bound by the Freedom of Information legislation that governs other government-owned enterprises, so they don't have to disclose the results of the geological survey.

So that's one possibility, but in any case, I reckon Bertie's new employers are interested in Coillte primarily for the carbon-trading rights that all that forestry represents. You couldn't make this stuff up.

micro_dot · 13-01-2011 10:56PM

Please see the link below about Tory plans to privatise Britain's forests. 17% of Britain's woodlands would be up for sale potentially. Although there's no bid yet for Coillte, we have been sold off as a people, so why not our forests too?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jan/13/english-forests-lost-tax-revenues

Donny O · 23-01-2011 03:05AM

theroad wrote: »

Another aspect of this is the geological survey that Coillte commissioned when it came into existence, the results of which have not been publicly disclosed.

Coillte is a private company, see; its only shareholders are the Ministers of Agriculture and Finance. Because it is "private", it is not bound by the Freedom of Information legislation that governs other government-owned enterprises, so they don't have to disclose the results of the geological survey.

So that's one possibility, but in any case, I reckon Bertie's new employers are interested in Coillte primarily for the carbon-trading rights that all that forestry represents. You couldn't make this stuff up.

I think this is a massive scandal waiting to break....a company given huge assests to set up, that has to resort to selling off those assests to rpevent financial losses every year, and yet still no dividend to shareholders til last year, but huge salaries and bonuses....rotten to the core, and it needs to be exposed......this is our land, as a people and our money, as taxpayers.......

stepbar · 23-01-2011 04:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If they sell 7% of the country off at €1,000 an acre it would be the biggest heist ever

History book stuff!

Have you seen the sort of land they own? It's pure sh1te and good for nothing else but growing forestry.

nice_guy80 · 23-01-2011 04:11PM

stepbar wrote: »

Have you seen the sort of land they own? It's pure sh1te and good for nothing else but growing forestry.

unless there are valuable minerals or other assests underneath.
and the land would be valuable for wind turbines

Cookie_Monster · 23-01-2011 06:11PM

stepbar wrote: »

Have you seen the sort of land they own? It's pure sh1te and good for nothing else but growing forestry.

Its a huge carbon store, provides walking areas for thousands of people every week, improves air quality and should remain state land, forestry is extremely important, both as industry and for social and green purposes. Selling 7% of the country to some dodgy private enterprise headed by one of the most corrupt slime balls ever in Ireland is madness.

later12 · 23-01-2011 09:06PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

provides walking areas for thousands of people every week

It's worth a considerable fortune, while there are many factors to take into account, I really don't think that having a place to take Rover walking is one of them.

improves air quality

Do you realise the size of the impact that this has on Irish air? You could obliterate these forests and you would still get the same oxygen in your capillaries, don't worry. Most people wouldn't notice any difference in air composition, in practical terms there wouldn't be any.

ilovesleep · 23-01-2011 09:19PM

Aisling Murphy wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else feel as outraged about this as I do?
My head is going to explode...I don't know how much more I can take of the constant revelations that are becoming a daily occurrence in this country? Have we all become so beaten down and desensitised that we feel too powerless and downtrodden to even protest? Where is the civil unrest and rebellion? Have we become so 'battered' we feel it's futile?
THE LAND BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE AND IS NOT FOR SALE! The IMF and ECB own a big enough part of us as it is. When do we say 'ENOUGH'.
:mad:

+1

Absolutely sickening.

A protest to save Coilte anybody?

RATM · 24-01-2011 08:10PM

stepbar wrote: »

Have you seen the sort of land they own? It's pure sh1te and good for nothing else but growing forestry.

But has there ever been a complete geologocal survey done on what lies beneath?

I'm not into conspiracies except when that scumbag Ahern is involved- then all bets are off. Ahern would have been privy to info the rest of us aren't so his involvement makes me suspicious immediately.

Leaving conspiracy aside though it is surely a smack in the face to the Irish people that Berties fecked up the property market and is now going to gain from his own failings by doing a land grab of 7% of the states land....incredible.

Interestingly enough this article about Lissadell House in Sligo mentions the impact that that case may have on Coilltes ability to block public rights of way....

Meanwhile Coillte, which controls hundreds of thousands of acres, much of it available for public access, said that they were still studying the judgement but did not envisage that it would impact on their lands.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/exit-stage-right-access-row-scuppers-lissadell-concerts-2507459.html

Birdnuts · 25-01-2011 02:28AM

http://www.woodlandleague.org/

And please sign the petition:)

recedite · 25-01-2011 10:31AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I think Coillte are fairly poor at what they do but selling off the land is the wrong option, especially if someone like Bertie is involved, you know it will be well dodgy.

It should operate like the Luas, state owns the infrastructure but gives a licence to a private company to manage it. This would allow us to retain ownership of huge tracts of the country while earning a % cut of the profit the private company makes on the management of it or simply a flat fee for access. Open access can remain in place apart from areas being actively worked on.

That is the current situation. Coillte is a private company which manages the land on behalf of the State. Coillte does not own the land. But the govt could at any time direct Coillte to sell off the land piecemeal to Bertie and his Secret Offshore Swiss Bank Account investor buddies.
What are the bets that some of the investors are the same bankers and developers we are bailing out with the IMF loan? http://www.johnmcguire.ie/news.html
Bertie and Helvetia must be raging that FF have imploded so badly. It will be that much harder for them to get their greasy paws on State assets.

later10 wrote: »

The above indicates that Coillte are profitable... am i missing something?

No. Also, future profits are even more important to investors than current profits. and with talk of all EU electricity power stations having to use a mandatory % of renewable fuel, all that wood chip is looking $$$ even better. Far too good to be left in the hands of the State (citizen/taxpayer/ loser).

donkey balls · 25-01-2011 08:54PM

There is a thread over in the aviation sector about a low flying DC3 doing a survey http://www.airbornesurvey.com/Lim_Home.html

Donny O · 25-01-2011 09:48PM

later10 wrote: »

It's worth a considerable fortune, while there are many factors to take into account, I really don't think that having a place to take Rover walking is one of them.

Do you realise the size of the impact that this has on Irish air? You could obliterate these forests and you would still get the same oxygen in your capillaries, don't worry. Most people wouldn't notice any difference in air composition, in practical terms there wouldn't be any.

Actually the amenity value of our forested areas is currently being quantified by a number of studies. And if you think about the add on benefits to the local community either en route to the forest walk, or the nearest town, then surely it is obvious the economic benefits to businesses in those areas. Taking Rover for a walk may involve buying petrol for the car, lunch for yourself and the better half, perhaps an ice cream for the kids, a newspaper, all small scale spending that with the right amount of large scale numbers of visitors becomes significant.
So don't underestimate the amenity value of this resource (if properly managed of course!)

If you were to remove dramatic amounts of vegetative cover from the land, it would have significant knock-on effects on air quality. Most people would not notice it immediately, but the damage would be done. This is unquestionably so.
There would also be a huge concern with flooding. Woodland habitats soak up huge amounts of water, through their leaves and through their roots, as well as acting as anchors for the soils around them.

It would be foolish to dismiss these "values" and "benefits" of our woodlands, simply because it is more complex to put an exact euro value to them.

lmimmfn · 26-01-2011 12:41AM

last i heard the state owns everything in the ground and found in the ground, minerals and whatever else. You need a license to excavate so if anyone buys Coillte they will never own the mineral rights unless thats specifically in the deal.

Coillte "fire sale" & Bertie Ahern

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