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Kippure North Beam - Soarview

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  • 09-12-2010 12:02am
    #1
    Sam the Aerialman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭


    Does anyone know exact frequency (mhz) and power for the Soarview multiplex radiated from Kippure? Would anyone have detailed info on restrictions to Kippure to the north and east. I believe there were negotiations to limit Kippure to the east.

    Investigating reception problems of the PSB3 multiplex from Winter Hill and if is somehow linked to Kippure.


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    #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Kippure and Three Rock are running as a SFN on channel 54 (738 MHz). Not sure of its ERP though.


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    #3
    SRB
    Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    Sam, when it first came on, on CH 61, it was blasting into Portaferry, it was actually stronger in parts of the town than the MUX on 34 from Divis for well over three weeks. Over the year of "the tests", it varied in power (leaving aside the usual atmospherics) and moved to Ch54 when the SFN began. Since mid September it has been unwatchable with me, this followed a few days of Kippure being on and off, so something was being done. When the Mux on Ch58 from Kippure was on a few weeks back, it was similar in strength to the transmissions when they first appeared, while 54 was still just a slight peak on the meter. Another guy here in Portaferry, was in touch with RTE NL on and off over the last year, but since the coverage here dropped he has had no replies to any e-mails he's sent them. It is a - off-set, I'll check the exact frequency next time I can get it to lock.


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    #4
    Sam the Aerialman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭Sam the Aerialman


    SRB wrote: »
    Sam, when it first came on, on CH 61, it was blasting into Portaferry, it was actually stronger in parts of the town than the MUX on 34 from Divis for well over three weeks. Over the year of "the tests", it varied in power (leaving aside the usual atmospherics) and moved to Ch54 when the SFN began. Since mid September it has been unwatchable with me, this followed a few days of Kippure being on and off, so something was being done. When the Mux on Ch58 from Kippure was on a few weeks back, it was similar in strength to the transmissions when they first appeared, while 54 was still just a slight peak on the meter. Another guy here in Portaferry, was in touch with RTE NL on and off over the last year, but since the coverage here dropped he has had no replies to any e-mails he's sent them. It is a - off-set, I'll check the exact frequency next time I can get it to lock.

    Cheers SRB - Reckon i've figured it out. It's 738.025mhz with a negative 167khz offset.
    Strange thing happened yesterday was commissioning an IRS aerial system for a block of apartments in Dundrum, County Down. Was checking the RTE analogue reception and noticed carriers on channel 59 & 62, dug a bit deeper and realised it was Winter Hill. Checked Kippure analogue and ch54 was lit up, took a couple of tuners and messed about and got the following BBCA, BBCB, ARQA, SDN, 4 multiplexs from Winter Hill all registering in the low 50's (db). Kippure DTT Channel 54 738.025 mhz was online from a picnic box registering 48db was very stable, we were using a single stage masthead with a gain factor of 13db. There was no PSB3 multiplex from Winter Hill allow all the other multiplexs at 100kw were booming in which led me to believe that Kippure is so powerful that it was wiping it out on the County Down coast.


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    #5
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Are you sure about offset? I understood that all the RTENL DTT muxes were on the centre frequencies of the relevant channels. Certainly Three Rock and my local relay (Greystones) were on CH54 and CH52 respectively. I took down my outdoor aerial some months back and I use only Greystones now, so I can't check Three Rock.


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    #6
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    You have a Spectrum analyser fat-tony?

    A regular TV, PC stick/card or Setbox has AFC and can't give an accurate frequency reading.


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    #7
    Sam the Aerialman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭Sam the Aerialman


    fat-tony wrote: »
    Are you sure about offset? I understood that all the RTENL DTT muxes were on the centre frequencies of the relevant channels. Certainly Three Rock and my local relay (Greystones) were on CH54 and CH52 respectively. I took down my outdoor aerial some months back and I use only Greystones now, so I can't check Three Rock.

    That's what i'm trying to get my head around.

    Detail -
    The NIT descriptor is 0x62
    Frequency 738.025mhz
    0x5A TDS
    Value calculates an offset of 167000Khz

    If it was a centre frequency the value of that centre frequency should have been roughly 198500Khz. Three Rock & Kippure run as an SFN so when the MIP is inserted and syncronised for broadcast you should get no multipath distortion whatsoever.


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    #8
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Is that a measured frequency or the alleged one in the Transport stream tables?


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    #9
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    watty wrote: »
    You have a Spectrum analyser fat-tony?

    A regular TV, PC stick/card or Setbox has AFC and can't give an accurate frequency reading.
    Can I borrow your spectrum analyser - or maybe you can check for me, instead?
    The reason I was surmising that DTT was on centre frequency, was that none of the RTENL documentation mentioned offsets, my tuner cards would never receive in the initial days of MPEG2 testing when I put in an offset - either + or - 167 KHz (I assume Sam's value of 167000 KHz is meant to be 167KHz).
    The UK DTT system has transmitters on positive, negative and no offsets according to various documents, but no such similar info seems to be in the public domain from RTENL. I remember trying to research this some years ago and came up with nothing - so if you know watty - then spill;)


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    #10
    SRB
    Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    Quick dash to top of Windmill Hill with laptop and TS Reader :
    From the NIT:

    Network Name: RTENL
    Network ID: 12801 (0x3201)
    Transport Stream ID: 1001 (0x03e9)
    Original Network ID: 8564 (0x2174) Version: 0
    Descriptor: Network Name Descriptor
    DVB-T Frequency 198.500 MHz
    Bandwidth: 8 MHz Constellation: 64-QAM
    Hierarchy: non-hierarchical, native interleaver Guard Interval 1/32
    Code Rate: 2/3
    Current Network: True


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    #11
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Sam the Aerialman wrote: »
    That's what i'm trying to get my head around.

    Detail -
    The NIT descriptor is 0x62
    Frequency 738.025mhz
    0x5A TDS
    Value calculates an offset of 167000Khz

    If it was a centre frequency the value of that centre frequency should have been roughly 198500Khz. Three Rock & Kippure run as an SFN so when the MIP is inserted and syncronised for broadcast you should get no multipath distortion whatsoever.
    The NIT descriptor 0x62 contains the list of main frequencies in use. It includes 198500KHz as the lead frequency for some reason. No-one has reported an actual DTT mux in Band III, although the spec for the receivers includes this. The relevant one for Three Rock / Kippure is listed as 738000KHz, which implies that there is no offset, but I'm sure watty can put us to rights;) There are still some anomalies in the SI data and the clock in the TDT data is about a minute slow, but I'm sure it will all be sorted!


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    #12
    SRB
    Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    Be much easier if RTE NL just published the blooming information on their website !


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    #13
    Sam the Aerialman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭Sam the Aerialman


    watty wrote: »
    Is that a measured frequency or the alleged one in the Transport stream tables?

    Checked - Triple checked and verified.


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    #14
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    198.500MHz is the centre frequency of E8 and is allocated to three sites presumably as an SFN, Kippure (53dbW), Three Rock (40dbW) and Greystones (30dbW), each with vertical polarisation.

    But as already mentioned, no public reports of reception on this frequency have been made.


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    #15
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    lawhec wrote: »
    198.500MHz is the centre frequency of E8 and is allocated to three sites presumably as an SFN, Kippure (53dbW), Three Rock (40dbW) and Greystones (30dbW), each with vertical polarisation.

    But as already mentioned, no public reports of reception on this frequency have been made.
    Allocated in what document? Just interested. Greystones is a local relay, vertically polarised, always been UHF C/D group, not VHF.


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    #16
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,511 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    fat-tony wrote: »
    Allocated in what document? Just interested. Greystones is a local relay, vertically polarised, always been UHF C/D group, not VHF.

    RRC-06 / GE06 Agreement, Geneva 2006

    DVB-T VHF Channels (7 MHz) allocated to Ireland at RRC-06
    5 (174 - 181) - IRL DTT NTH WEST, IRL DTT STH EAST
    6 (181 - 188) - IRL DTT WEST
    7 (188 - 195) - IRL DTT MIDLANDS
    8 (195 - 202) - IRL DTT EAST
    9 (202 - 209) - IRL DTT NTH EAST, IRL DTT STH WEST

    RRC-06 plan posted here


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    #17
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    I know that Ireland was allocated VHF spectrum for DTT, but you seem to have drawn an inference that an SFN based on channel E8 was planned as a result - or am I missing something? Have RTENL flagged anywhere that they are planning such a thing? Any of their published documents indicate that DTT is on UHF with 8 Mhz spacing, although I know that the receiver spec issued indicated that VHF was required. Is this just a case of "just in case" on the part of RTENL that they have coded 198500 KHz in the NIT PID ;)


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    #18
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Not that I know of. But VHF is still in the Saorview spec and about a million years ago they did run Band III VHF DTT tests.


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    #19
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Ok - back to the original topic. Is a 167 KHz offset from the centre frequency being used on Three Rock / Kippure (or any other transmitter)?


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    #20
    fat-tony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,705 ✭✭✭fat-tony


    Thanks Sam. First hint of offset frequency being documented I have seen. If the docs are public domain it might be good to publish them once you had a good look. Thanks for also coming back to me in the satellite forum also - you had me going for a while;)


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    #21
    Sam the Aerialman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭Sam the Aerialman


    Right well quite an intensive reading exercise - These are tender documents issued by RTENL in respect to antenna designs and upgrades for a number of their sites. Kippure, Holywell Hill, Maghera, Clermont Carn & Truskmore are the focus of these particular documents, included with these are radiation patterns HRP/ VRP for new antenna linked to the DTT services.

    These documents were sent to a handful of companies for tender to work, manufacture, supply and fit of the new antennas. The companies who specialise in this work can literally be counted in one hand. Alan Dick (Who won the Kippure contract), RFS, Babcock/ JL Eve (Who won the Holywell Hill contract), Balfour Beatty and Kathrein of Germany.

    As far as i'm aware these are in the public domain -

    http://www.rte.ie/about/tenders/dttuhfantennasystems/Section%201%20-Specification%207035AN-09-01%20-%20General%20Requirements.pdf

    The link below is of greater interest than the one above -

    http://www.rte.ie/about/tenders/dttuhfantennasystems/Section%202%20-%20Specification%207035AN-09-02%20%28Technical%20Specification%29.pdf

    To skim off a few points -

    KIPPURE
    A UHF 2 antenna shall be mounted as a wrap-around antenna on the structure. (Wraparound in this context does not necessarily mean a system which completely wraps the structure. It may also be a 4 sided or more antenna system)

    EFFECTIVE RADIATED POWER
    For analogue services, the mean power per service, which includes the S1 and S2 sound powers (-13dB and –20dB respectively, relative to the peak vision power), shall be taken as 0.7 times the peak vision power. (Note; this value has been deliberately rounded upwards)

    Where fc is the centre frequency of the digital channel.
    fc = 306+ 8*N MHz, N = 21....

    RTENL may offset the centre frequency by ±167kHz to ease adjacent channel operation.

    Where fv is the vision carrier frequency.
    fv = 303.25MHz + 8*N MHz, N = 21....

    Impedance and horizontal radiation patterns for digital channels at
    1. The centre frequency.
    2. The centre frequency ± 4MHz

    Full maps and antenna layouts are at the bottom of the document.

    Aperture - Aerial Height's Transposers.
    Arklow 24m – 26.5
    Suir Valley 47m – 50.6m
    Forth Mountain 39m – 41.25m / 39m - 43.5m
    Gallows Hill 19m – 21m
    Drogheda 29m – 30.25m
    Tonabrocky 34m – 36.25m
    Tipperary 24m – 26m
    Killarney 29m – 30.25m
    Navan 25m – 26.25m
    Skerries 15m – 16.25m
    Loughrea 14m – 16.5m
    Árainn Mhór 34m – 43m
    Letterkenny 75m – 80.3m

    Navan 7/8" 7..16mm 50watts
    Forth Mountain 1 5/8" 7/8" 100/50
    Drogheda 7/8" 7..16mm 50
    Tonabrocky 1 5/8" 7/8" 50
    Tipperary 7/8" 7..16mm 50
    Killarney 7/8" 7..16mm 50
    Arklow 7/8" 7..16mm 50
    Skerries 7/8" 7..16mm 25
    Loughrea 7/8" 7..16mm 25
    Suir Valley 1 1/4" 7/8" 250
    Aran More 1 5/8" 1 5/8" 200
    Letterkenny 1 1/4" 1 5/8" 200
    Gallows hill 1 5/8" 7/8" 100/50

    I will continue to read the rest of these -


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