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Claudio Monteverdi and New age music.
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21-03-2010 12:19am#1I wish to discuss the many Christians perspective on the Sacred music that is in the Church today, some like it and some dislike it, however I'd like to focus on those who dislike the music today, and ask them the simple question which is:
Why do you dislike the music which you view as secular and has no place in the Catholic Church?
I love the gregorian Chants and byzantine hymns, but I also like the current music as well.
I cant imagine why people would dislike it, taking Claudio Monteverdi as an example of the 15-1600's who at his time attracted people to Church by taking the secular music of his time and mixing it with the Sacred and it was a great success.
Pax Christi
Stephen
A distinguished musician, born at Cremona, May, 1567; died at Venice, 29 Nov., 1643. He studied under Ingegneri (composer of the "Responsoria", that until recently were regarded as by Palestrina), and at the age of sixteen he published a book of canzonets, followed by four volumes of madrigals. Although the majority of his early works show little trace of the inventive genius which afterwards revolutionized the prevalent system of harmony, one of his madrigals, printed in 1592, is remarkable for its many suspensions of the dominant seventh, and its inversion, as also suspended ninths. He was appointed Maestro di Cappella to the Duke of Mantua in 1602 and in 1613, was elected Maestro at Venice in succession to Martinengo, at a salary of three hundred ducats a year. So highly was he appreciated at St. Mark's that in 1616, the Procuratori increased his salary to five hundred ducats. From that date until his death he produced numerous choral compositions, as also operas, cantatas, ballets, most of which cannot now be traced. Fortunately, the score of his opera "Orfeo", printed in 1609, has come down to us, and is quite sufficient to indicate the inventive powers of a musician who broke away from the trammels of the older school and created a school of his own.
Monteverde not only showed his genius in his dramatic writing but in the employment of new instrumental effects, and the combination of instruments in the theatre band. In his interlude written for the festival at the palace of Girolamo Mocenigo, he employed the device of an instrumental tremolo, till then unknown. Another novel effect was his employment of trombones to accompany the "Gloria" and "Credo" of a Mass, in 1631. At this date he was studying for the priesthood, and he was ordained in 1633. Six years later he composed an opera "Atone" for the opera house of San Cassiano, followed by two others, and a ballet for the carnival at Piacenza, in 1641. His enduring fame consists in his use of unprepared discords, his improvement of recitative, his development of orchestral resources and his revolution of instrumentation. He may justly be claimed as the founder of dramatic music, as we now understand it, and he anticipated Wagner in the employment of Leitmotiv.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10538a.htm0
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underclass wrote: »Happy-clappy, unholy and low quality music written using user-friendly software should be banned from churches. We should strive for excellence. We should strive for music written and performed by those who understand the importance of using their God-given talents for the highest purpose. I'd sooner prefer an upstanding member of the community with a mediocre voice singing solo, than have a folk group in the corner blasting out their latest creations at full volume. Maybe people like folk group type stuff, but can we not at least compartmentalise this to the 10 o'clock Mass, leaving the main Mass at 11 to the parish choir/organ with solemn music? Plenty of Latin is a good thing too imo - perhaps the 12 o'clock Mass could specialise in providing Latin-themed music: Agnus Dei, Pater Noster, Credo, Gloria, Salve Regina, etc.
Whom are you to say that that folk music is not holy? it sounds like your more interested in what you like rather than what God likes.
I love all the latin stuff, I love all the folk stuff too, since all music comes from God and the lyrics are Holy and rebound back to him, it therefore can be called Holy.
If you cant enjoy the sound of all bells and hear the voice of God in all of them, then there is nothing wrong with the bells or God, there is something wrong with you, wouldnt you agree?
Pax Christi
Stephen 0 -
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The Mad Hatter wrote: »I didn't mean you were suggesting they sounded alike, but that you were comparing them in terms of quality. Monteverdi was one of the greatest composers of his time, and bridged the gap between Renaissance music and Baroque music. Modern pop music - especially Christian pop music - is generally three chords in structure, jarring gear-change modulations near the end and written without any knowledge whatsoever of either the history or the make-up of music.
If you want good modern Christian music, there's still plenty of great choral music being written. One album in particular I'm thinking of, but I can't remember the name. I'll get back to you.
I'd also suggest you try some of the music of Olivier Messiaen, a French Catholic composer who was one of the twentieth century's greatest. Some of his stuff can be quite extreme, but I think you might like his Quartet for the End of Time, written while he was interred in a POW camp during World War 2, and his 20 Aspects of the Infant Jesus for solo piano.
No I am not comparing them in terms of quality either, the only similarity I am making between both is that the two mixed the secular with the Sacred and it was a success, thank you also for the suggestions, I'll certainly go out and give a listen.
Pax Christi
Stephen 0 -
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Stephentlig wrote: »Whom are you to say that that folk music is not holy? it sounds like your more interested in what you like rather than what God likes.
I love all the latin stuff, I love all the folk stuff too, since all music comes from God and the lyrics are Holy and rebound back to him, it therefore can be called Holy.
If you cant enjoy the sound of all bells and hear the voice of God in all of them, then there is nothing wrong with the bells or God, there is something wrong with you, wouldnt you agree?
Pax Christi
Stephen
You're right. I can't stand happy-clappy airy-fairy music. You cannot compare any of the stuff you hear at your local suburban church built in McQuaid-eque grandeur with the masterpieces from Mozart or Bach. Why do we encourage mediocrity, when the Church is full to the brim in riches only waiting to be rediscovered?0 -
underclass wrote: »You're right. I can't stand happy-clappy airy-fairy music. You cannot compare any of the stuff you hear at your local suburban church built in McQuaid-eque grandeur with the masterpieces from Mozart or Bach. Why do we encourage mediocrity, when the Church is full to the brim in riches only waiting to be rediscovered?
Underclass, although you cant compare both, my point is that if you can not enjoy both then there is something wrong with you not the music.
I play in the church once a month and I dont play for the Crowd I play to give glory to God, and to help people come closer to God with music he likes and they like and if I'm doing that then I'm giving glory to God.
Pax Christi
Stephen 0 -
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Stephentlig wrote: »Underclass, although you cant compare both, my point is that if you can not enjoy both then there is something wrong with you not the music.
I play in the church once a month and I dont play for the Crowd I play to give glory to God, and to help people come closer to God with music he likes and they like and if I'm doing that then I'm giving glory to God.
Pax Christi
Stephen
Ok point taken. Christianity can be quite diverse at times.0 -
underclass wrote: »Ok point taken. Christianity can be quite diverse at times.
I understand we all have our diverse ways of praising Jesus, I'm just tickling your intellect to get you thinkin about what it means to be on the true path of happiness, which is to enjoy the sound of the whole orchestra that is giving its praise to God, and to look on everything else as so much rubbish if it isnt in praise of Jesus Christ.
Am I claiming to be truly happy and enlightened? of course not, its something I strive for everyday, and listening to what the Holy Spirit has to say through the mystics of the Church and praying to God for this happiness aids me in this constant quest for joy.
Pax Christi
Stephen 0 -
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Stephentlig wrote: »Whom are you to say that that folk music is not holy? it sounds like your more interested in what you like rather than what God likes.
I love all the latin stuff, I love all the folk stuff too, since all music comes from God and the lyrics are Holy and rebound back to him, it therefore can be called Holy.
If you cant enjoy the sound of all bells and hear the voice of God in all of them, then there is nothing wrong with the bells or God, there is something wrong with you, wouldnt you agree?
Pax Christi
Stephen
how do we know what god likes though? I often thought music should be suiting o the occasion of the mass. I could understand the muted tones at lent and the celebrations at Easter. But I always thought that musically religions had fallen out of touch. I don't mean they should be lady gaga, but the melodies are dated.
And if "all music comes from God" does that mean God condones the sentiments of Gangster Rap? Surely music comes from the people?0 -
how do we know what god likes though? I often thought music should be suiting o the occasion of the mass. I could understand the muted tones at lent and the celebrations at Easter. But I always thought that musically religions had fallen out of touch. I don't mean they should be lady gaga, but the melodies are dated.
we know what God likes because all music comes from him and when sung to him in praise it is pleasing to him. the religious music is not dated, its more modern than anything else, we've been conditioned and programmed by society to look at as dated and this is why we see it as so.And if "all music comes from God" does that mean God condones the sentiments of Gangster Rap? Surely music comes from the people?
when listening to Gangster rap, the music comes from God, but the gangster part only comes into play through their lyrics and their motive within the song is played out and this doesnt come from God
I've heard the same rap music with Holy lyrics in praise of God, this is seen as all Holy rap music.
Pax Christi
Stephen 0 -
Stephentlig wrote: »religious music is not dated, its more modern than anything else, we've been conditioned and programmed by society to look at as dated and this is why we see it as so.
Pax Christi
Stephen
I'll take your secod point, but I can't agree with this. Pop & Rock music are FAR more modern. I can't see how you can argue that religious music is more modern that either. I'll take rock music as my example:
Other than utilising new musical equipment, Rock music deals with very current themes and notions. MGMTs new single is composed of different parts, one echoing the craze for 80s nostalgia for example, while the others tread new territory in taking pieces of songs and forcing then together to create one coherent tune.
Similarly, Muse have taken Opera and combined it with heavy rock. They deal with issues like modern surveillance, the hopelessness of the city, etc.
By it's very nature, as beautiful as it may be, religious music cannot really be modern. It's focus is not to explore new ideas, but rather highlight old ones in an acceptable tone. It usually always involves an acousti guitar or organ and has not tread any new territory since the 90s, in my opinion.0 -
I'll take your secod point, but I can't agree with this. Pop & Rock music are FAR more modern. I can't see how you can argue that religious music is more modern that either. I'll take rock music as my example:
Other than utilising new musical equipment, Rock music deals with very current themes and notions. MGMTs new single is composed of different parts, one echoing the craze for 80s nostalgia for example, while the others tread new territory in taking pieces of songs and forcing then together to create one coherent tune.
Similarly, Muse have taken Opera and combined it with heavy rock. They deal with issues like modern surveillance, the hopelessness of the city, etc.
You're confusing music with lyrics.
There is, strictly speaking, no such thing as religious music. Music is simply the arrangement of notes and rhythms.
Your opinion is obviously not based on reality.By it's very nature, as beautiful as it may be, religious music cannot really be modern. It's focus is not to explore new ideas, but rather highlight old ones in an acceptable tone. It usually always involves an acousti guitar or organ and has not tread any new territory since the 90s, in my opinion.
Thousands of churches use rock music and various instruments in their services. My own church uses keyboards, drums, bass, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, congas, bodhrans, fiddle, tin whistle, tenor sax, alto sex, trumpet and trombone for our worship.
Christians use all kinds of music to explore the ideas of how we relate our faith to a world that is rapidly changing. Indeed, many churches use visual media along with their worship, displaying video images through a projector similar to the concept of a music video.
In contrast, some rock music explores very little. Much of it still amounts to little more than saying, "I fancy a girl and want to get into her pants."
Maybe you need to get out more and get to church more? 0 -
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You're confusing music with lyrics.
There is, strictly speaking, no such thing as religious music. Music is simply the arrangement of notes and rhythms.
Your opinion is obviously not based on reality.
In contrast, some rock music explores very little. Much of it still amounts to little more than saying, "I fancy a girl and want to get into her pants."
Maybe you need to get out more and get to church more?
I neutered the above as I'm on an iPod an it's a nightmare to format. First off I get out more that enough - I attend at least two major gigs a week.
My opinion is based in reality, albeit my one. I was in both a church choir and rockband. I learned how to play guitar there. I will plead ignorance for not knowing there were churches in Ireland with brass sections - where is the church? I'd love to see it.
But using visuals is nothing unique: from pink floyds wall tour to Irish band (apty named) god is an astronaut, visuals in music has gone back years, but truly has it's roots in rock.
Rock music goes far beyond sex. Radiohead ate essential listening in the rock genre, again they have forged new areas of music for their contemporaries to explore in the public eye almost on their own - can't think of one of their songs that revolves around sex. It's the thinkers persons rock.
Yea, there's the Oasis' and ACDCs, but for each of them there's a Tv on The Radio or Belle & Sevastian. They are not constrained to themes and by this they can be more experimental, progressive and engaging.
Surely you can conceed that by being tied down to 'religious themes', etc, religious music cannot be progressive? That it is stuck in a circle? How would a congregation take it if the choir on Sunday challenged their view of Capitalism, al la early Rage Against the Machine? Or with surreal themes from say the pixies? Or even with the mindanity of modern life from Blur, Arcric Monkeys, the Smiths...
The most progressive music in recent years has been from the Jewish hipster rapper Matisyahu. He successfully integrated religious themes with modern beats and even ideas and sold out shows all over the world! Other than this, there has been nothing major to emerge from Religious music since The 80s at least.
Cliff Richard doesn't count.0 -
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There is, strictly speaking, no such thing as religious music. Music is simply the arrangement of notes and rhythms.
Arvo Pärt would disagree. So would J. S. Bach, but then he's probably not "progressive" enough for mehfesto.
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