website

puddie77 · 05-01-2010 3:43pm #1

can anyone tell me what i should be spending on a fairly average website, nothing too fancy please....some of the quote are just ridiclous.

skelliser · 05-01-2010 3:46pm

what kind of site do you need?
is it a brochure site with just a few pages, info, services contact info.
Or do you need a e-commerce solution, will you be selling stuff online.

kenbrady · 05-01-2010 3:48pm

puddie77 wrote: »

can anyone tell me what i should be spending on a fairly average website, nothing too fancy please....some of the quote are just ridiclous.

What type of website ? What does it do ?
There are 1000s of web developers all offering the same service.
Always buy the domain name yourself.

puddie77 · 05-01-2010 3:51pm

Its mainly for advertising...no money will be excepted on the site.i should think 3 or 4 pages max.about,contacts,description,gallery..... I've been working in construction industry for approx 15yeras guys so this is the same as looking into a bush as far as knowing anything about websites.

Atlas_IRL · 05-01-2010 4:17pm

There are numerous ways to do this.

Irish company - You can meet up with them and tell them exactly what you want. I would shop around though as some Irish companies tend to be pricy.

Outsourcing- elance, scriptlance.com , guru.com etc their are alot of them. Post up your details, the price your willing to pay and let the bids role in.

Template DIY - an example This is 65 dollars, buy your domain and server would cost about 100 euro more then change the info around or get someone else to.

You would need search engine optimisation done as well so people find your site in google. You could easily get this site done for less than a grand. 2-300 if you knew what you were doing.

puddie77 · 05-01-2010 4:39pm

thanks atlas, something like that would b A1.. i appreciate that....good man

chowdown · 05-01-2010 10:11pm

It's worth spending a bit of money on a decent website - you want something you'll be proud to show prospective customers. You'll want it to develop over time so you should select someone to design and develop it who you like - you're going to be working with them quite closely.

If you're not very web-competent you should think of paying someone a monthly retainer to host it and update it for you. It's better to pay an expert than try to do it yourself, if you're likely to make a mess of it.

As you prepare to develop your website, keep a note of sites you really like (and sites you really don't like) so you can hone your thoughts.

http://www.lingscars.com/ <--This, for example, is a terrible website.

J_Wholesale · 06-01-2010 11:44am

When you're looking at really cheap prices, you need to be aware of exactly what that means. 200 Euro gets you 4-6 hours work from an average web designer. Even if all you want is a 4 page site, you're not going to get much, and certainly nothing original or impressive, for what amounts to a few hours work.

chowdown wrote: »

http://www.lingscars.com/ <--This, for example, is a terrible website.

It's worth saying that however tacky the above site might look, it's a very successful website. This raises an important issue about website design. It's NEVER about you, or what you like or find attractive. It's about your customers and what works. If tacky works better than artistic, and by works I mean brings in more business, then tacky is the way to go. Of course, that's assuming you want to make a profit.

egan007 · 06-01-2010 11:49am

kenbrady wrote: »

Always buy the domain name yourself.

I disagree a reputable web design company will advise you on the best domain for you and register it in you name for you. Often clients register their own name without knowing anything about it - including who it's registered with and the access details.

OP - If you are looking from some estimates here then describe you business briefly and what you expect to get from a website.

PCPhoto · 06-01-2010 11:51am

chowdown wrote: »

It's worth spending a bit of money on a decent website - you want something you'll be proud to show prospective customers. You'll want it to develop over time so you should select someone to design and develop it who you like - you're going to be working with them quite closely.

If you're not very web-competent you should think of paying someone a monthly retainer to host it and update it for you. It's better to pay an expert than try to do it yourself, if you're likely to make a mess of it.

As you prepare to develop your website, keep a note of sites you really like (and sites you really don't like) so you can hone your thoughts.

http://www.lingscars.com/ <--This, for example, is a terrible website.

or if you have the time to learn/experiment you could save yourself ......it may take a bit longer but there are plenty of tutorials and "how to" ...and most hosting companies offer web-building these days.

be careful with the freelance sites if going that route, theres plenty of people who will literally just get a template and adjust it instead of creating a site for you.

chowdown · 06-01-2010 11:52am

Totally agree with all of those points, J_Wholesale.

Employing a very cheap designer is like buying a very cheap car or a pair of very cheap shoes - before long you're going to have to fork out to have them repaired, or pay to bin it.

Think of the website as an investment - sure it's going to be expensive in the short-term and writing the cheque to pay the developer might hurt, but if you get it right, it will soon pay for itself.

There's a terrible sort of beauty to Ling's cars.

egan007 · 06-01-2010 12:00pm

PCPhoto wrote: »

or if you have the time to learn/experiment you could save yourself ......it may take a bit longer but there are plenty of tutorials and "how to" ...and most hosting companies offer web-building these days.

be careful with the freelance sites if going that route, theres plenty of people who will literally just get a template and adjust it instead of creating a site for you.

There is a lot more to makeing a website that brings you more business than arranging pictures and text.

I could buy flower and eggs and make my kids birthday cake but it will all end in tears no matter how good the tutorial is.

egan007 · 06-01-2010 12:02pm

Atlas_IRL wrote: »

You would need search engine optimisation done as well so people find your site in google. You could easily get this site done for less than a grand. 2-300 if you knew what you were doing.

I have a hotel in central dublin - will you make me number 1 in google for 200 euro please.

SiDay · 06-01-2010 12:06pm

This is really a "how long is a piece of string" question. You can use websites such as getafreelancer.com or elance.com to find someone to do the work for you. In my experience these will be cheap but they will normally be based in India or Pakistan and if you have not had experience of specifying a website and controlling offshore developers any savings might not be worth the cost.

Alternatively you could try to source someone here - word of mouth is obviously the best way but otherwise find websites that you like the look of and contact the designer (most have the designers name at the bottom of the site).

The last alternative is to produce the site yourself, there are many systems available some of which are free. Our open source CMS system iWiccle is developed for unskilled computer operators to use and is completely free - you can create modern looking brochure sites easily but it also comes with built in forums, photo galleries etc. at no charge. PM me for further details or have a look at a website that I produced using iWiccle www.yourowneyes.com - it took me about half a day from scratch.

Good luck

Simon

Atlas_IRL · 06-01-2010 1:14pm

egan007 wrote: »

I have a hotel in central dublin - will you make me number 1 in google for 200 euro please.

Thats a stupid reply what has that got to do with what i posted

mneylon · 06-01-2010 1:26pm

Atlas_IRL wrote: »

Thats a stupid reply what has that got to do with what i posted

No it's not.

People charge a lot for SEO in many cases because it's not "easy"

If you want to get ranked in Google for something really odd, then it's not hard.

However if you want to get ranked for a highly competitive term it will take time, money and effort

It's like someone saying that there are hundreds of designers offering the same service. That's not really true.

Is a Mini the same as a Rolls?

LINGsCARS · 06-01-2010 1:39pm

chowdown wrote: »

http://www.lingscars.com/ <--This, for example, is a terrible website.

Why do people say this sh1t?

Look, I move over £35 million of new cars each year from my "terrible" website. Can the people offering "advice" here say they are 1/10th as successful?

It does not matter about most stuff, what matters is do you get traffic, what your visitors/customers think and do people transact and do you make money.

All the rest is total BS. So do what you want to do, but whatever, realise WHY your customers transact. It is not rocket science.

But, boring them to death with a "professional" and "clean" and "smart" website will not usually help. You need some stickiness and reasons for visitors to a) refer, b) return.

Ling

RoadKillTs · 06-01-2010 2:13pm

http://www.lingscars.com/ <--This, for example, is a terrible website.

Maybe in some ways but is it making money? Thats the real question.
The site grows on you after a while

Hi Ling! Welcome to boards. Really enjoyed you on the Dragons Den. You did well.

Atlas_IRL · 06-01-2010 2:28pm

Blacknight wrote: »

No it's not.

People charge a lot for SEO in many cases because it's not "easy"

If you want to get ranked in Google for something really odd, then it's not hard.

However if you want to get ranked for a highly competitive term it will take time, money and effort

It's like someone saying that there are hundreds of designers offering the same service. That's not really true.

Is a Mini the same as a Rolls?

If you read my post i said if you know what you are doing you can do it for cheap.

LINGsCARS · 06-01-2010 2:32pm

RoadKillTs wrote: »

Maybe in some ways but is it making money? Thats the real question.
The site grows on you after a while

Hi Ling! Welcome to boards. Really enjoyed you on the Dragons Den. You did well.

I've been here before

Yes, making money. Just paid £20k Corporation Tax to keep the UK rolling, really pleased to be pi55ing in, not taking out.

That's why it makes me mad that clever knobs seems to think they can dismiss my business in a sentence by posting absolute BS on these boards.

Thanks so much for the welcome RoadKillts

PCPhoto · 06-01-2010 2:40pm

egan007 wrote: »

There is a lot more to makeing a website that brings you more business than arranging pictures and text.

I could buy flower and eggs and make my kids birthday cake but it will all end in tears no matter how good the tutorial is.

maybe you need to goto cookery school and learn how to do it (not a personal attack - a humourous comment)

there may be a lot more to making a website other than dragging and dropping, but in the OPs case

he/she is looking for "Its mainly for advertising...no money will be excepted on the site.i should think 3 or 4 pages max.about,contacts,description,gallery..... I've been working in construction industry for approx 15yeras guys so this is the same as looking into a bush as far as knowing anything about websites."

which he/she could do themselves by following tutorials and reading books...trial and error and he/she would save a decent amount of money - if they were able to take the time to learn how to do it themselves (it will take longer doing it yourself - but compared to some websites I've seen "professionally" done.... you can get better results yourself)

Once the website is created...its all about advertising - letting people know the site exists. (it doesnt need to be top of Googles list as long as its advertised and people can find it)

zAbbo · 06-01-2010 2:54pm

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Why do people say this sh1t?

Look, I move over £35 million of new cars each year from my "terrible" website. Can the people offering "advice" here say they are 1/10th as successful?

Ling

You tell em Ling, both your website and Ryanair are great examples of high revenue websites that are a break from the perceived high quality design norm.

And I doubt many if any here are doing 1/100th of your revenue let alone 1/10th

LINGsCARS · 06-01-2010 3:01pm

zAbbo wrote: »

You tell em Ling, both your website and Ryanair are great examples of high revenue websites that are a break from the perceived high quality design norm.

And I doubt many if any here are doing 1/100th of your revenue let alone 1/10th

Ooooops, thanks zAbbo

Well, I was chatting to Ryanair's Stephen McNamara the other day and we agreed on a lot of web stuff, but... I am nowhere near Ryanair. I am more like a fly, next to their 737.

I do differ to Ryanair on dealing with customer problems, but agree 99% with most stuff they do. They are really very, very good.

tricky D · 06-01-2010 3:10pm

LINGsCARS wrote: »

That's why it makes me mad that clever knobs seems to think they can dismiss my business in a sentence by posting absolute BS on these boards.

People are dismissing your site because of the lack of visual design and that's not clever at all. The design is only a part of the bigger picture - the doing business bit. Visual design of a website is no guarantee of doing any business and it's doing business profitably which puts the roof over the head, food on the table and so on. Sure the design and look and feel of your site will not win any awards, who cares, you're making sales and money. The other thing about your business that people miss while they snigger is your branding: eccentric, extrovert, unafraid (no problem for you to come here to defend yourself), quirky, etc. but very memorable, visible, well advertised, with enough trust.

When it comes to visual design, people seem to forget that the most successful site out there has the simplest and most basic visual design out there with 30ish words a simple logo and a textbox and the most basic and untreated results listings. They make billions.

Keep posting here please, Ling.

LINGsCARS · 06-01-2010 3:22pm

Yes, most important, my site has to put food on the table for 10 people (my staff) and me and my family.

I agree, most people just give a view based on the most flimsy of visual scans of a site, and justify it by thinking everyone acts like them. It is a bit like the difference between the interest I take in Newcastle United and a real hardcore fan takes. My opinion on Newcastle United is not worth anything.

However, if you need a car, you will probably take more time and become emotionally bonded to my website (or Ryanair's if you need a flight) than if you are just "reviewing" it. It's not rocket science.

mneylon · 06-01-2010 3:26pm

Atlas_IRL wrote: »

If you read my post i said if you know what you are doing you can do it for cheap.

I read your post and I would disagree.

Tony255 · 06-01-2010 7:57pm

anyway back on topic OP what are some of the prices that you were quoted if it is as simple and you just want a site for business cards etc I think you could get what you are looking for, for well under €500 and it will be done by a professional company. I have one in mind they designed my site and they really are great to deal with.

Getting traffic to the site is a different story, this is where the real money comes in. If you are looking for a top position in google for the term "Brick layer" then you may need to spend a lot of money to get your site up to the top of the list when the customer types in that term.

Do you want to have the site to give yourself some exposure so that people will pick you for Jobs as if so there are a lot of trades people finders out there at the moment that may work out cheaper for you.

tomED · 08-01-2010 11:31pm

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Why do people say this sh1t?

Because it is! :P

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Look, I move over £35 million of new cars each year from my "terrible" website. Can the people offering "advice" here say they are 1/10th as successful?

I think it's safe to say, your success isn't down to your website, but your business model. I'm not sure how much the car leasing industry is worth in the UK, but I would hazard a guess that 35m of new cars (before the crash) is a small % of the overall market?? Would I be right??

LINGsCARS wrote: »

It does not matter about most stuff, what matters is do you get traffic, what your visitors/customers think and do people transact and do you make money.

I agree with you on this, which is why I'm still a little shocked that you don't do more with your site to improve how people interact with your website. You've clearly figured out that this is what it's all about, so why not improve your site??

Being completely honest, there would only be one reason why I'd ever go back to your website - if there was no hope of me getting a better deal anywhere else. Just like Ryanair!

LINGsCARS wrote: »

So do what you want to do, but whatever, realise WHY your customers transact. It is not rocket science.

100% agree - so what's your secret then?

If you're not the cheapest on the market and there is room for improvement in terms of attracting new business, why not take advice from a pro - I can guarentee that they could help you improve your turnover!

Thanks for stopping by, by the way!

LINGsCARS · 09-01-2010 12:45pm

tomED wrote: »

Because it is! :P

Hahahaha! Which rule book do you subscribe to, the 2 font in grey text with clean interface and "about us" type menus?

tomED wrote: »

I think it's safe to say, your success isn't down to your website, but your business model. I'm not sure how much the car leasing industry is worth in the UK, but I would hazard a guess that 35m of new cars (before the crash) is a small % of the overall market?? Would I be right??

Disagree, very few (if any in the world) other companies who have leasing websites of variously boring degrees enjoy this volume. They all have the same business model: Put a customer into a car, take a commission on the supply of the car from the car supplier.

Yes, volume is a very small % of a mature market. But then, I am not looking for world domination (yet).

And hey, "before the crash" kind of indicates I am in decline, right? Hmmm, latter half of 2009 and my revenue per car is up 33% on the last 3-year average. ie: Revenue per car is highest it has ever been, thanks. And my accounts just filed on 31st Dec with companies house show an INCREASE in turnover and profit on the previous year and my cash position is much higher (not with ICESAVE thank God, my cash reserves reside with the safest building society in the UK, the Stafford Railway BSoc. Laugh at the BSoc name, but you will soon stop if you do a bit of research about it). So, less of this "before the crash", chum.

I was wearing a seatbelt and have an airbag size pile of cash to avoid a bust nose. I swerved around it

tomED wrote: »

I agree with you on this, which is why I'm still a little shocked that you don't do more with your site to improve how people interact with your website. You've clearly figured out that this is what it's all about, so why not improve your site??

Well, I must say I have more interaction from my website with visitors and customers than any other car leasing (and most other) websites. A lot of my customer interaction is subject to data protection and is on my secure server so is not visible but is in excess of 500 LINGO messages a day (at an average response time of less than 5 minutes, try THAT with any other car supplier)... honestly, I interact and talk to more visitors than any other car business website in the UK.

If by "improving" my site, you mean applying the "standard" design "rules" (sorry about all the """), I would rather go swimming in the iced Tyne than have a more conventional offering. Maybe I am in front, not behind the design/interaction curve... have you considered that?

Other car leasing websites have NO interaction at all (except "ring 0800 112233 for details"). Whereas everything I do is designed to increase interaction with human beings in my target demographic, whether that is old people applying for free Werther's, getting a free cash bribe, applying free FUKU noodles, playing my quiz (win a car), playing hang-a-car-dealer, watching my office CCTV 3 webcams, moaning, commenting, asking quotes, requesting free 1st aid kit (customers only), chatting online, uploading contact pics on my customer LINGO, sending/reading customer poetry, watching dozens of videos, getting PX quotes, getting insurance quotes, joining car update list, watching my live Customer Google Maps, or live website visitors moving around in realtime on the website and making them dance the (now deceased RIP) JamJar/RBS dance in Camp Ling - my online visitor detention camp..., or my 1,300 customer letters (fully attributed and replied to), or making me climb down and jump back up on my header... I mean sometimes I spend whole days just interacting! Apart from online car-sex (now there is an idea Tom) I struggle to find more stuff to do.

tomED wrote: »

Being completely honest, there would only be one reason why I'd ever go back to your website - if there was no hope of me getting a better deal anywhere else. Just like Ryanair!

That's not what most people say. Although I do attempt to offer the very best deals. Also the very best service and reliability. I have 100,000 uniques a month, and many of them don't return again and again to have a new car, as the car buying cycle is so long (maybe 3 or 4 years). Largely it is to be entertained/enjoy stuff, just as I log on to Ryanair news page every day to see the latest "lunacy" from that mental Irishman O'Leary.

Swap "lease cars" for "TV news": If people just wanted dry information, they would not watch TV news, but just get teletext. TV news would be in North Korean format. But it is not, the first objective is to entertain and then to effectively impart information. By entertaining or causing a brain reaction, it is possible to convey more information more effectively. ...First you need to open people's minds: ask any schoolteacher.

People don't want to be told "it's cold and snowy", they want to see people crashing, roads blocked, kids sledging, people slipping, snow pouring on to a reporter's head. It is the same with cars.... of course they want a price, but they also enjoy a bit of Top Gear.

Of course, if I was wrong about this, the whole information/media industry is wrong too. I assert that website design and internet presentation in general is WAY BEHIND the ball on this. Maybe the BBC should simply list all the news on their site in a plain manner, maybe they should restrict their info to the necessary core info? By making their site wonderfully diverse and interactive and broad, the BBC are dominating the information website arena to howls of complaints... they know how to do it. Look at how Murdoch et al are screaming, because they cannot create enough of their own traffic to sustain their business models. The same applies to car leasing websites (in a much smaller way).

tomED wrote: »

100% agree - so what's your secret then?

Being a human being (albeit deeply flawed). There are not many human beings available when you surf business websites. It is not about the cars. If it was, every other car leasing site would have equivalent traffic/interaction (as the range of cars is exactly the same, the only differentiator is price and service. A Ford Focus 1.6 is a Ford Focus 1.6 I am afraid). People want to ENJOY... in their lunchbreak at work... not get dry info (and not very good info) that most other car leasing websites provide.

tomED wrote: »

If you're not the cheapest on the market and there is room for improvement in terms of attracting new business, why not take advice from a pro - I can guarentee that they could help you improve your turnover!

So why not simply offer the advice to all the other car leasing firms, and let them beat me? Or start a site yourself and move £70m of cars a year? This "I can improve your site/turnover/profit/visitor" line is familiar. It always comes from people who do not have a site with anything like the turnover/profit/visitor numbers. No offence

tomED wrote: »

Thanks for stopping by, by the way!

Pleasure, thanks for the considered opinion, but you should know I will not agree with conventional wisdom. All the other car leasing sites have conventional wisdom and look at their numbers. They rely on teams of telephone operatives and offline methods, and their websites are largely uselessly conventional.

Have you noticed I do not have a large "ring 0800 11122233" graphic? My business is conducted almost exclusively online with a massive back-end (oooo errrr) secure LINGO CRM system which is so good, BT Business/Nat West just gave me the 2009 award for IT and Communications, at The Dorchester, from Mrs Brown. Read my customer >1300 testimonials online, to see what they think of it.

Customers matter, not conventional wisdom and web "rules".

Take aspirin and give it another go.

I should charge a F88king fortune for this... hahaha! But, you Irish, you need every assistance at the moment (UK not far behind, agreed). So, in an act of charity to The Free State, I give you the above for free.

The opportunity to do something stunning on the web is tantalisingly possible for anyone. But without unplugging your brain from all the conventional "rules", you have no chance IMHO.

Ling

J_Wholesale · 09-01-2010 1:06pm

Just like to say, the response to Lings posts here is typical of business forums everywhere. Business forums are probably the single most conservative forums on the internet. If you suggest a business idea that is not already well established and saturated, you'll be shot down. If you dare to question the 'established' wisdom of the day, you'll be laughed out the door. If your online business is successful (even very successful), and you don't do things the 'proper' way, you'll be ridiculed, regardless of that success.

What do you think would have happened if the founders of Facebook had started talking about their ideas on business forums beforehand, or during the development or very early launch stage? They would have run away with their tails between their legs - the very idea of another MySpace!

The one constant on the internet is change, and it's almost never change in the direction that 'established' wisdom thinks it's going to be. It's the guys who are doing everything differently, who don't buy into the this-is-the-way-it's-done crap, who are always at the forefront of that change.

If you're running your online business just like everyone says you should; if you're crossing all the appropriate Ts and never get shot down on forums like this; then you're really not qualified to comment on anyone who does things differently.

Be different, guys. Just my 10c. (Wasted, no doubt.)

tomED · 09-01-2010 2:30pm

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Hahahaha! Which rule book do you subscribe to, the 2 font in grey text with clean interface and "about us" type menus?

Not at all! Clarity is the word, clear call to actions, with little clutter.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Disagree, very few (if any in the world) other companies who have leasing websites of variously boring degrees enjoy this volume. They all have the same business model: Put a customer into a car, take a commission on the supply of the car from the car supplier.

Yeah that's my point - there's something quirky and interesting about your website, but it's not the design. I'm not talking about changing what I would call your business model (the quirkiness, funny side etc).

I'm talking about taking all that fun and presenting it better. That doesn't mean dressing it up in a suit - it simply means bringing more clarity to the site.

As far as I'm concerned that's why your site works.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

And hey, "before the crash" kind of indicates I am in decline, right? Hmmm, latter half of 2009 and my revenue per car is up 33% on the last 3-year average. ie: Revenue per car is highest it has ever been, thanks.

I wouldn't have thought that no - for leasing I imagine there has been an increase with people still wanting new cars, but not willing or can't get a loan from a bank.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Well, I must say I have more interaction from my website with visitors and customers than any other car leasing (and most other) websites. A lot of my customer interaction is subject to data protection and is on my secure server so is not visible but is in excess of 500 LINGO messages a day (at an average response time of less than 5 minutes, try THAT with any other car supplier)... honestly, I interact and talk to more visitors than any other car business website in the UK.

Yep I would have thought that - my point is, you could make it easier for people to interact with your website. People are interacting because the find the site interesting and there's obviously a communtiy buzz about the site. I'm talking about harnessing that and growing it.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

If by "improving" my site, you mean applying the "standard" design "rules" (sorry about all the """), I would rather go swimming in the iced Tyne than have a more conventional offering. Maybe I am in front, not behind the design/interaction curve... have you considered that?

LOL - but absolutely not no.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

I mean sometimes I spend whole days just interacting!

ABSOLUTELY!!! And I would never ever change that!! That is obviously one of the key reasons why people interact with the site and come back for more!

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Apart from online car-sex (now there is an idea Tom) I struggle to find more stuff to do.

LOL

LINGsCARS wrote: »

So why not simply offer the advice to all the other car leasing firms, and let them beat me? Or start a site yourself and move £70m of cars a year? This "I can improve your site/turnover/profit/visitor" line is familiar. It always comes from people who do not have a site with anything like the turnover/profit/visitor numbers. No offence

How about this !!!??

I'll get a site built as I see it should be, let me take all the best bits from your site and get you to be the face behind it.

All you have to do is interact with the customers as you do on your current website and guide as to what content to fill the site with. We'll do the rest then we plit it 50/50? :P

Open to a lower split cut for me

Seriously though (i am serious on above actuall!) - your model works - that's clear, but business owners like you are far and few between. I meet clients every week and try to get them to engage with customers online, even through something as simple as Twitter, but they just can't do it.

You've got that skill and talent in abundance and you've been able to use it to your advantage. You know what it takes to get people to engage with you and you know how to meet them on their level, which is excellent!

But my point is, if you've only got a small % of the market, your revenues could be increased by making a few usuability and design feature changes to your website. The model - should not be changed - anyone that is telling you that you should, is missing the point!

website

Comments