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'Critical Mass' or critically few?

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    #62
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    There is a car-free day once a year. It's a token effort and has so far been treated as a joke, alas.


    I don't think there's ever been a Car Free Day that I was aware of - it feels like every year I hear something about how successful/unsuccessful it was on the radio and I think to myself "wow, that was on yesterday?".

    Whoever's in charge of publicising/organising it needs a bit of a shake if you ask me.

    If the official Car Free Day is such a damp squib, I don't know what difference 20 people calling themselves Critical Mass can hope to achieve...


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    #63
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,751 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Just spotted a good example of why I'd prefer many facilities to be removed.

    http://www.dublincycling.com/node/457

    2009-10-29-CycleCrap_Harolds_Cross-2%20copia.jpg

    2009-10-29-CycleCrap_Harolds_Cross-6%20copia.jpg

    People who know how to cycle in traffic know that they should not be where these lanes are. People who don't know how to cycle in traffic will use them faithfully and place themselves needlessly in hazardous situations.

    And these have been repainted recently, as it says in the article. The national cycling framework is not being implemented; if it were, these wouldn't be repainted exactly as they were before.


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    #64
    Captain Havoc
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 11,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Captain Havoc


    -Chris- wrote: »
    I don't think there's ever been a Car Free Day that I was aware of - it feels like every year I hear something about how successful/unsuccessful it was on the radio and I think to myself "wow, that was on yesterday?".

    Whoever's in charge of publicising/organising it needs a bit of a shake if you ask me.

    If the official Car Free Day is such a damp squib, I don't know what difference 20 people calling themselves Critical Mass can hope to achieve...

    Do you know how many rain forests would have to be chopped down to make posters publicising these events? :D

    https://ormondelanguagetours.com

    Walking Tours of Kilkenny in English, French or German.



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    #65
    Grey Biker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭Grey Biker


    :cool: I second what( I Love Bikes says ),a lot of Negative attitudes here about C Mass. It was a very Pleasant Cycle Ride around Dublin with like minded People who love Cycling and would like to have decent Cycling Infrastructure. If anybody had Political views about anything they certainly did not show it,all they wanted to do was Cycle the Streets.:DSo if you enjoy Cycling why dont you come Join us at the next C Mass on 27th of November.

    Also there is a Protest at City Hall this Evening 6.00pm for the Retentsion of the Bus Gate around College Green and Dame Street. This Helps Protect Cyclists at Rush Hour in Morning and Evening,it also Helps Commuters to get Home quicker without the Street being blocked up with Cars. So Please do come and Help Stop the D.C.Council from Voting out the Bus Gate:eek: One Less Car:p.


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    #66
    Bunnyhopper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Bunnyhopper


    Grey Biker wrote: »
    :cool: I second what( I Love Bikes says ),a lot of Negative attitudes here about C Mass. It was a very Pleasant Cycle Ride around Dublin with like minded People who love Cycling and would like to have decent Cycling Infrastructure. If anybody had Political views about anything they certainly did not show it,all they wanted to do was Cycle the Streets.:DSo if you enjoy Cycling why dont you come Join us at the next C Mass on 27th of November.

    Also there is a Protest at City Hall this Evening 6.00pm for the Retentsion of the Bus Gate around College Green and Dame Street. This Helps Protect Cyclists at Rush Hour in Morning and Evening,it also Helps Commuters to get Home quicker without the Street being blocked up with Cars. So Please do come and Help Stop the D.C.Council from Voting out the Bus Gate:eek: One Less Car:p.

    Random capitalization does not make you more convincing :)

    Also, if all you want to do is cycle the streets, then just cycle the streets. The very fact of co-ordinating a group cycle, labeling it a critical mass, and presenting it (here or elsewhere) as an act aimed at securing decent cycling infrastructure is in itself political. Given that, your saying, "If anybody had Political views about anything they certainly did not show it," doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.


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    #67
    ILoveBIKES
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭ILoveBIKES


    '''So up to this point you've labelled the cyclists who commented on this thread as insane, crazy, having warped perceptions, talking nonsense, and making serious fabrications.'''

    LOL... you proved my point exactly. You have totally warped what I have said. Let me point out somthing here, just incase you didnt actually read what I said and just picked out key words and wrote up about what you wanted to hear. I said NOTHING about anyone being insane or crazy, I said the idea that we were doing some of the things suggested was crazy, have you ever used these words in those terms? Im sure you have! I didnt actually call anyone crazy, but, I suppose you had to use these words in your own terms or your post would not have been as provocative.

    With regards to saying some had warped perceptions, it was in reference to the mass consisting of anti-establishment folk and another word you changed for your own ends was the word 'nonsense'. Funny how you said, I said, people were talking nonsense, I didnt say that, I made a direct reference to the idea that we were blocking publoic transport, and it was nonsense.

    The reason I put LOL at the start is becasue I nearly pissed my self when I saw you writing this... 'you start from a different perspective and listen to the arguments and points that people have made, and respond to them - rather than just criticise them'. WHAT! LOL, take some of your own advice! Comparing me to a religous order or a buisness group. Thats a very nasty thing to do... but lets not forget, Im the evil, condesending one here yes?

    One more thing, I see you think very highly of yourself, or your intelligent enough to choose your words very carefully... 'There you go with the labelling again, calling us mis-informed. I see you below you are now also calling people's comment "lies". Nice first posting to the board, definitely one way to get off on the wrong foot.' - Ill give this to you, your great at manufacturing your own, very different , reality. You probably know very well that you set out to try to ruin my image here, thanks, very nice person.

    I meant my post to be positive, I was either wrong, or your a nasty individual, anywho, bye bye, have a nice day:)


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    #68
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,034 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Grey Biker wrote: »
    :cool: I second what( I Love Bikes says ),a lot of Negative attitudes here about C Mass. It was a very Pleasant Cycle Ride around Dublin with like minded People who love Cycling and would like to have decent Cycling Infrastructure. If anybody had Political views about anything they certainly did not show it,all they wanted to do was Cycle the Streets.:DSo if you enjoy Cycling why dont you come Join us at the next C Mass on 27th of November.

    Also there is a Protest at City Hall this Evening 6.00pm for the Retentsion of the Bus Gate around College Green and Dame Street. This Helps Protect Cyclists at Rush Hour in Morning and Evening,it also Helps Commuters to get Home quicker without the Street being blocked up with Cars. So Please do come and Help Stop the D.C.Council from Voting out the Bus Gate:eek: One Less Car:p.

    Is there a hidden message in the apparently random capitalisation? I'm too scared to decipher it.

    I can't imagine why anyone would enjoy slow group cycling in city traffic. Surely it'd be like trying to keep a convoy of cars together - every time the lights change you'd split the group and have to play catch up.


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    #69
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Grey Biker wrote: »
    :cool: I second what( I Love Bikes says ),a lot of Negative attitudes here about C Mass. It was a very Pleasant Cycle Ride around Dublin with like minded People who love Cycling and would like to have decent Cycling Infrastructure. If anybody had Political views about anything they certainly did not show it,all they wanted to do was Cycle the Streets.:DSo if you enjoy Cycling why dont you come Join us at the next C Mass on 27th of November.

    Also there is a Protest at City Hall this Evening 6.00pm for the Retentsion of the Bus Gate around College Green and Dame Street. This Helps Protect Cyclists at Rush Hour in Morning and Evening,it also Helps Commuters to get Home quicker without the Street being blocked up with Cars. So Please do come and Help Stop the D.C.Council from Voting out the Bus Gate:eek: One Less Car:p.


    I find it funny that your first paragraph states that the CM ride was non-political and asks us all to join in this month, and your second paragraph is promoting a politically motivated rally.

    Are you a politically motivated cycling activist or not?


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    #70
    Bunnyhopper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Bunnyhopper


    ILoveBIKES wrote: »
    I said NOTHING about anyone being insane or crazy, I said the idea that we were doing some of the things suggested was crazy, have you ever used these words in those terms? Im sure you have! I didnt actually call anyone crazy, but, I suppose you had to use these words in your own terms or your post would not have been as provocative.
    ILoveBIKES wrote: »
    A lot of people seem to have a fair idea of how the mass went down, without going of course, but their idea of critical mass in insane.
    …
    This idea of us annoying the drivers is crazy!!
    …
    I think people have a warped perception of what happens at the mass without ever going.
    …
    There has been serious fabrications about the critical mass on this thread, very delibrate ones indeed.
    …
    To the people who have never been on a mass, let me tell you now, there is a serious element of lies out there, dont ask me why?:(

    Thanks for the Jesuitical hairsplitting clarification.

    So, your position is that the posters on this thread who disagree with you have insane and crazy ideas, are making deliberate and serious fabrications, and their posts contain a serious element of lies.

    Did you actually come on here to try and win people over???

    I'd see myself as sceptical but open-minded about CM, but I'm not seeing the pro-CM posters here presenting a cogent and compelling argument. I'm seeing a lot of people talking about how they went for a non-political group ride (with a political aim) and had lots of fun. I'm not seeing any substantial engagement with the reasonable criticisms and concerns being raised by other posters.

    If you want to win me over you're really going to have to do better than this. If you don't want to win me over then why are you here?


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    #71
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    oh dear.


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    #72
    poochiem
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭poochiem


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    oh dear.

    amazing scenes....


    Yeah I was thinking that the likes of the Paris Respire (not random capitalisation :) ) are what the Critical Mass people should aspire to rather than what they had the last day, what do you all think? http://www.paris.fr/portail/deplacements/Portal.lut?page_id=9109 every sunday a different section of paris is closed to traffic and becomes a cycle & rollerblading zone. I think Madrid and other capital cities all do this now.


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    #73
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,034 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Mighty oaks (NSFW) from little acorns grow.

    The Wikipedia article (second link) does explain some more about things like corking, which seem unavoidable in keeping a large group together (and "Critical Mass" with a small group seems oxymoronic). No more acceptable though, IMO.


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    #74
    flickerx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,234 ✭✭✭flickerx


    If they cant even respond to the queries and debating from regular cyclists on the cycling forum without throwing childish temper tantrums, then I shudder to think how would they fare in the Motors forum - the people they're trying to convince to get out of their cars and onto the bikes.

    Maybe we should direct them over there, tell them to explain to the motorists about what they do and why, and see the response they get. I doubt it will be all smiles and thumbs up.


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    #75
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    That would make my day. :P:D


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    #76
    mmclo
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭mmclo


    http://www.cicle.org/cicle_content/pivot/entry.php?id=1384

    I think the key message is it's not either or in terms of public displays and political lobbying, the two need to work together


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    #77
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    tallnik wrote: »
    Now, I won't go and serve statistic analysis about the positive benefits of CM in other cities (you'll have to go do your own work :) ) However I will say this, cycling advocacy groups that I've worked with in the past in Montreal (Quebec) or Victoria (British Columbia) have seen CM as a part of an overall strategy to bring attention to cyclist's issues.

    You can't expect people to take you very seriously if you aren't going to back up your assertions


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    #78
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    I don't agree with CM's at all and all the people here arguing that I should are the exact reason why. If you all thought it was so great you should havce posted about it sooner instead of coming on with an béal bocht afterwards.

    And I'm with Blorg too, Tweed Run ftw, as long as no CM people come along, I like a little pace in my cycling


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    #79
    dave2pvd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭dave2pvd


    Most bike riders in this town do not support CM. The consensus is that the movement does not move the cars vs bikes relationship forward. To move it forward, cyclist advocacy groups need to work with the powers that be, not against them. CM spits in the face of city government.

    CM got so bad here that cyclists banded together and for a while ran a counter-CM ride: courteous mass.

    Myself and fellow club members are discouraged from attending CM and prohibited from wearing team kit, if we should attend. Whether true or not, CM is viewed as inherently political (despite its anarchic nature:confused:). Our team sponsor does not need to be associated with that kind of press.

    Now, if I was still 17, CM might line up just nicely with my world-view. Although, at 17, my world-view was pretty narrow. It mostly consisted of me.


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    #80
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    flickerx wrote: »
    If they cant even respond to the queries and debating from regular cyclists on the cycling forum without throwing childish temper tantrums, then I shudder to think how would they fare in the Motors forum - the people they're trying to convince to get out of their cars and onto the bikes.

    Maybe we should direct them over there, tell them to explain to the motorists about what they do and why, and see the response they get. I doubt it will be all smiles and thumbs up.

    OK, just for the sake of it, I've started this thread in Motors:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62809657

    I'm doing it out of interest to see how the cycling world view and motoring world view line up.

    OP and pro-CM posters, feel free to weigh-in on the discussion in Motors - I wonder if you can change any minds...


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    #81
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    dave2pvd wrote: »
    CM got so bad here that cyclists banded together and for a while ran a counter-CM ride: courteous mass.
    The CM ride in Dublin that I accidentally joined was courteous. I'm on the fence on this CM thing. I wouldn't make a point of going to one, but I'd join it if I saw it going passed. If people were acting the maggot I'd just turn off.


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    #82
    Bunnyhopper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Bunnyhopper


    -Chris- wrote: »
    OK, just for the sake of it, I've started this thread in Motors:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62809657

    I'm doing it out of interest to see how the cycling world view and motoring world view line up.

    OP and pro-CM posters, feel free to weigh-in on the discussion in Motors - I wonder if you can change any minds...

    Good idea. It'll be interesting to see how that thread goes. I hope the general response to it is a bit more productive than that first post replying to yours. I'm sure it'll get a lot of the usual stuff but the more thoughtful replies might be very interesting.


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    #83
    ednwireland
    Registered Users Posts: 14,327 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    i always drive in on car free day (even if i planned to cycle in)

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



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    #84
    laracianna
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭laracianna


    Over 2 months ago a handful of us met up and decided to try and restart Critical Mass in Dublin. It used to meet up at Parnell Square on the last Friday of the month. Because we wanted to break with the past and start something new we decided to meet up at Fusilier's Arch on St. Stephen's Green. We also decided to cycle at a regular pace; to avoid antagonising car users. Although I don't own a car, sometimes I rent one so I don't subscribe to the bikes versus cars view point.

    I'm amused to read some of the negative posts about CM on this thread because they are clearly written by people who weren't on the September or October cycle. We don't purposely try and block traffic. In fact going up Leinster Road we all pulled in to let a line of traffic pass. We are asserting our rights as road users and we're not blocking traffic- we are the traffic!


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    #85
    Gavin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭Gavin


    Nobody has actually answered the question of "What are your goals?" and how do you believe CM will achieve them ?

    If someone actually put across a coherent argument I could be persuaded!


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    #86
    dave2pvd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭dave2pvd


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    The CM ride in Dublin, that I accidentally joined, was courteous. I'm on the fence on this CM thing. I wouldn't make a point of going to one, but I'd join it if I saw it going passed. If people were acting the maggot I'd just turn off.

    Just wait until it reaches 'critical mass'. Once there are enough participants, the dynamic changes. For one thing, it becomes difficult to not block streets. More significantly, to keep the ride together, junctions need to be corked.

    If the ultimate aim is to improve conditions for cyclists, CM is a poor weapon in the fight. There are far more grown-up alternatives.

    Just my 2c.


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    #87
    Bunnyhopper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Bunnyhopper


    There seem to be about 4 or 5 people who have signed up to boards (good :) ) just to comment on this thread and in support of CM, yet no-one is addressing the questions that Gavin has highlighted.

    I don't have particular preconceptions about CM, except insofar as one inevitably has preconceptions about something that one has only seen from the outside. I do, however, have concerns about it, mainly that it is counterproductive, and I won't lend the weight of my participation to something about which I have such doubts. You might argue that the best way to understand CM is to participate, but I don't want effectively to endorse it when its advocates won't address the reasonable concerns expressed here.

    I can echo Gavin here - If someone actually put across a coherent argument then maybe I could be persuaded, too.


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    #88
    hamperlady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭hamperlady


    flickerx wrote: »
    If they cant even respond to the queries and debating from regular cyclists on the cycling forum without throwing childish temper tantrums, then I shudder to think how would they fare in the Motors forum - the people they're trying to convince to get out of their cars and onto the bikes.

    Maybe we should direct them over there, tell them to explain to the motorists about what they do and why, and see the response they get. I doubt it will be all smiles and thumbs up.

    I'm sorry but who exactly are 'them'? am I one of 'them'?. I love it when I'm pigeonholed like this it makes me very happy.


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    #89
    laracianna
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭laracianna


    Hi all, I think the best description about CM I've read is at http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94578. I hope this addresses some of the comments asking about CM's goals or a coherent argument for CM. It's a pretty comprehensive article. Well it would be great if some of the people from this cycling forum came along. Fair play to Ben for starting the discussion. It's a lot more active than the CM's own discussion threads and it's all getting the word out there. We haven't been great at advertising, but we're just a bunch of cyclists doing it in our spare time so it's all a DIY effort.


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    #90
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,034 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    ..ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca.

    200px-0330chewbacca.jpg

    Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

    Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with Critical Mass? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with Critical Mass! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a bunch of angry POBs, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must ride with Critical Mass!

    The defense rests.


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    #91
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    dave2pvd wrote: »
    Just wait until it reaches 'critical mass'. Once there are enough participants, the dynamic changes.

    Given that this is Ireland, I don't know if that would ever happen. I don't think we take to this sort of campaigning like other nations do.


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