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Libertas: Are they to be taken seriously?

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  • 09-05-2009 7:55pm
    #1
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭


    I don't know whether to believe the hype that they are getting in the papers or not. Does anyone have ideas as to how much of a chance they have in taking some of our European seats?


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    #2
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Voltwad wrote: »
    I don't know whether to believe the hype that they are getting in the papers or not. Does anyone have ideas as to how much of a chance they have in taking some of our European seats?

    I think that's an interesting question, and with slightly broader application than just their chance of getting seats. Will the Libertas "alliance" actually hold together after the elections? Even assuming Ganley wins a seat - I assume if he doesn't, then the project is over - there are so many disparate elements under the Libertas brand, and they've been together for such a very short time, that I can't see Libertas holding together in the Parliament for more than a few months.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #3
    tobias_wolf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭tobias_wolf


    God i hope not, the last thing europe needs is more extremists we already have Sinn fein


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    #4
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    lol, I don't. If anyone does take them seriously, please can you give reasons why someone should take them seriously because I consider them a joke party.


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    #5
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Well let's take a look at some of their points:
    1. Unelected Brussels Bureaucrats make up to 80% of laws - only elected officials should make the laws

    FACTS: The laws are proposed by the Commission, who are not directly elected by the people. They are put forward by each countries Governments and can be rejected by the Parliament, both of whom are elected by the people. The laws are then voted on by the Parliament who are elected by the people. So the unelected (or if you like the indirectly elected) Commission can propose whatever they want, only elected officials have the power to pass these into law.

    In addition most of these laws have no real impact on our day to day lives. They cover numerous things, like the sorts of materials allowed in particular types of buildings and other such minor peices of legislation. This in turn allows the domestic Governments to focus more on the bigger domestic issues.

    CONCLUSION: Libertas' claim is factual from a certain point of view but neglects so many facts as to be quite obviously distorted and misleading.

    190 Parties + 27 Unelected Commissioners = 1 Big Mess - Libertas is the only way to change it

    FACTS: The Lisbon Treaty sought to reduce the number of Commissioners citing the fact that there are so many causes massive inefficiency and cost where there is no need for it. Libertas insisted that we keep "our" Commissioner full-time (and by default that all countries keep "their" Commissioner full-time also).

    The 190 Parties are grouped into 7 different groups based on ideaologies with 1 "other" group containing about 30 (I think) of the 785 MEPs. I'm not sure how Libertas propose to change this given that there are 27 different countries that all need to be represented in some way with a certain number of MEPs each.

    Libertas give no details on how they are going to change anything in the EU. There is a link from the site saying Read More, but there is no more on the point. No propositions, no ideas. Nothing.

    CONCLUSION: Again Libertas ignore certain facts in order to present their case in the best possible way for them. Again they do state fact, however it is such a limited amount of fact as to misrepresent the truth. They also have no answers to the supposed problems they are hghlighting, yet state that they are "the only way to change it"
    Libertas wants a strong Treaty

    FACT: The Treaty is a legal document that is there to amend existing legal document. As a result it is not ever going to be easily readable. The Constitution was an attempt to avoid the complicated and confusing business of a Treaty, but that was not received favourably due, in part, to the connotations that the Constitution raises re sovereignty.

    CONCLUSION: Libertas either do not understand the nature of international legal treaties or they are purposefully and willfully ignoring it in an attempt at gaining support from those who do not understand the complexities of these issues.


    Basically they go on as though they are democracies last hope. Well for me one of the most important things any democratic organisation can do is assist in educating the electorate. Libertas make no effort to do that, in fact they prey on ignorance. They have great slogans all over the place, yet their policy page is 1 A4 sheet long. There is nothing of any substance what-so-ever there. They cannot, nor should not, be taken seriously as a political party.


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    #6
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Libertas' [80%] claim is factual from a certain point of view but neglects so many facts as to be quite obviously distorted and misleading.
    Has anyone ever seen a primary source to back up this 80% claim?

    Generation Yes claim to have researched this and come up with an altogether different figure: http://www.generationyes.ie/fight-the-lies/


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    #7
    _blank_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41,926 ✭✭✭✭_blank_


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Libertas give no details on how they are going to change anything in the EU. There is a link from the site saying Read More, but there is no more on the point. No propositions, no ideas. Nothing.
    This is the most important part of this whole "Libertas" movement, in my opinion.

    I went to their website this morning, and have not been able to find any policy direction other than some bluster about wanting to change things.

    How?

    Why?

    When?

    None of these questions are addresses, and they will not be getting my vote unless they present some proper policies.
    molloyjh wrote: »
    They cannot, nor should not, be taken seriously as a political party.

    Not until we see some solid policies they shouldn't.


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    #8
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Has anyone ever seen a primary source to back up this 80% claim?

    Generation Yes claim to have researched this and come up with an altogether different figure: http://www.generationyes.ie/fight-the-lies/

    I did look this up before (don't have time now, already past my lunch-break :o) and the figure was taken from the amount of legislation introduced in Germany in one particular year if I remember right. Looking into what they were a lot were the sort of stuff described above. Really detailed specific peices of legislation that had little to no actual effect on the average Joe.


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    #9
    getcover
    Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭getcover


    If Caroline Simmons is the best they can put forward, they cannot be taken seriously.
    She is like an amalgam of the worst parts of Cullen, Dick Roche and Mary Lou McDonald. Avoid at all costs!


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    #10
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I did look this up before (don't have time now, already past my lunch-break :o) and the figure was taken from the amount of legislation introduced in Germany in one particular year if I remember right. Looking into what they were a lot were the sort of stuff described above. Really detailed specific peices of legislation that had little to no actual effect on the average Joe.

    Actually, the "primary source" is this - Roman Herzog, the former German President, said 80% of Germany's laws came from the Commission. Here:
    Former President Roman Herzog said it here (translation of original article in Welt Am Sonntag, February 14 2007)

    The information he was basing his figure on is on page 15 here: (April 29, 2005, in the German Parliamentary Journal 15/5434 of May 6, 2005)

    This is State Secretary Parliamentary Undersecretary Alfred Hartenbach Hartenbach saying: From 1998 until 2004 167 EU regulations and 750 directives have been passed. During the same period the German Parliament has in total 1.195 laws (as well as 3055 Rechtsverordnungen) passed.
    (“Rechtsverordnungen” are a wide category of binding acts by Parliament, government, administration)

    Now, if you look at that, you'll see that the 80% is the result of dividing the (167 EU regulations and 750 directives) by 1,195 - leaving out the 3,055 Rechtsverordnungen - and rounding up the resulting 76.7%.

    If you do the sum right it's 917 EU out of (1195+3055) - 21%, which accords very well with the 28% figure Generation Yes are showing for Ireland.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #11
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    Kudos to molloyjh on that post, very informative :)


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    #12
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Has anyone ever seen a primary source to back up this 80% claim?

    Generation Yes claim to have researched this and come up with an altogether different figure: http://www.generationyes.ie/fight-the-lies/

    I read something a while back from, I think, an OECD report which stated that the figure is less than 50%, which compares well with the Generation Yes worst-case figure. I'll try to dig it out.


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    #13
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    also I read somewhere that the 80% figure comes from some report on the Enviroment laws from the US and the original statement was *in some cases up to 80% of enviromental law was introduced by the European Union*


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    #14
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    As usual the Grahnlaw blog is a great place to go for EU analysis, and he's been picking through the bones of Libertas' policies over the last few weeks. Here's what he's covered so far:

    Hold the EU Accountable- Only Elected Politicians should make the law.

    Full Disclosure- All EP and Commission expenses must be published.

    Save Money- €10 Billion in savings to be identified by the Commission in the next financial year.

    A Lean EU- Cut the number of meetings in Brussels by 50% in 2010..

    Libertas wants a strong Treaty.

    Also, a collection of all his Libertas-related posts.


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    #15
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Hitman Actual wrote: »
    As usual the Grahnlaw blog is a great place to go for EU analysis, and he's been picking through the bones of Libertas' policies over the last few weeks. Here's what he's covered so far:

    Hold the EU Accountable- Only Elected Politicians should make the law.

    Full Disclosure- All EP and Commission expenses must be published.

    Save Money- €10 Billion in savings to be identified by the Commission in the next financial year.

    A Lean EU- Cut the number of meetings in Brussels by 50% in 2010..

    Libertas wants a strong Treaty.

    Also, a collection of all his Libertas-related posts.

    AVG detected active threats on grahnlaws blog and has blocked access :(. I've visited it many times before this is the first time this has happened.


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    #16
    r14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭r14


    sink wrote: »
    AVG detected active threats on grahnlaws blog and has blocked access :(. I've visited it many times before this is the first time this has happened.

    Libertas cyberspys at work ;)


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    #17
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    sink wrote: »
    AVG detected active threats on grahnlaws blog and has blocked access :(. I've visited it many times before this is the first time this has happened.

    Hmmm... I've AVG as well, and I've configured it as recommended in these guides. I have no problem getting access (Vista 64-bit, AVG Free 8.5).


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    #18
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    sink wrote: »
    AVG detected active threats on grahnlaws blog and has blocked access :(. I've visited it many times before this is the first time this has happened.

    Odd. It didn't for me.


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    #19
    passive
    Registered Users Posts: 2,403 ✭✭✭passive


    r14 wrote: »
    Libertas cyberspys at work ;)

    amazing what you can do with CIA funding ;)


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    #20
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Cough...on-topic, please.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #21
    WIZE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭WIZE


    Are you watching tha NIGHTLY NEWS on TV3 . Sh1t is hitting the fan :)


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    #22
    The Volt
    Registered Users Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    passive wrote: »
    amazing what you can do with CIA funding ;)
    I believe it's the funding from the American Arms Industry


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    #23
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    BVB wrote: »
    Are you watching tha NIGHTLY NEWS on TV3 . Sh1t is hitting the fan :)

    Can you (a) clarify that, and (b) reduce the width of your signature?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #24
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    its the vincent browne show and declan ganley's a guest, So I assume vincent is giving him the same treatment he gave caroline simmons but this time we'll get answers straight from the horses mouth.


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    #25
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    Not sure what was on Vincent Browne tonight. But this is Caroline Simons and other candidates from Dublin on last Thursday:

    http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?show_cal=1&newspanel=1&showspanel=&locID=1.65.169&date=2009-05-11

    I love when Vincent gets like this. Best broadcaster in the country on his day. Simons comes across as a real light-weight. Can't believe she brought up the old 'curved banana' nugget..


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    #26
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    yeah Vincent Browne is talking with the north west candidates tonight, so hopefully that will be up tomorrow. Just confirmed it from their website.


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    #27
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    yeah Vincent Browne is talking with the north west candidates tonight, so hopefully that will be up tomorrow. Just confirmed it from their website.

    Which candidates did he have? Would love to see Browne vs Ganley.


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    #28
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    http://www.scribblelive.com/Event/Vincent_Browne_TV3


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    #29
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    Just a heads-up: The NW candidates will be on Pat Kenny on Radio 1 this morning as well. Not sure what time in the show though.


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    #30
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    Which candidates did he have? Would love to see Browne vs Ganley.


    It was painful to watch, lots of shouting & accusations & "I'm a catholic" declarations
    Marian Harkin, Jim Higgins, Paschal Mooney, Declan Ganley


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    #31
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Hitman Actual wrote: »
    Just a heads-up: The NW candidates will be on Pat Kenny on Radio 1 this morning as well. Not sure what time in the show though.

    It's on now, and has been on for what feels like forever. I still have no problem with putting Ganley way down on my ballot, but I am finding it difficult to identify candidates that I want to vote for. It will come down to "least worst".

    Libertas is a policy-free organisation, running on slogans.


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