Publicity in shooting sports

Sparks · 11-05-2008 1:04pm #1

I'm copying out these two posts from the examiner editorial thread because I think this is an important topic to look at on it's own...

bunny shooter wrote: »

The constant reference by the Gardai to Olympic standards and comps and firearms is what cheeses me off :mad:
It's as if there is no other type of shooting.

Ever seen a report in the public domain on a practical shooting match that had names and photos and pushed the sport actively, creating sporting figureheads to point at and follow? No, not until very, very recently (as in, this month). For years, several people in olympic shooting were doing just that, however, and it made it into the papers and the radio and the television, giving shooting the only positive coverage it was getting at the time. And that image stuck - so now you have gardai saying that some shooting is better than others, rather than what you had before, which was gardai saying all shooting was bad. It's progress. It's not done yet. And when practical and silhouette (who to be fair did push as well but seem to have died back now) and gallery and all the other disciplines start putting in years of focussed effort into PR and their shooters start buying into it and agreeing to be photographed and written about, then we'll see further progress.

But it's incredibly unfair to say the olympic people did something wrong. We did what we were supposed to do as the olympic NGBs, and we broke our backs doing it, and every other discipline benefitted from our work as well. Which is how it should be. Just because I do something for my discipline, does not mean that thing will only benefit my discipline. For example, the pistols case has benefitted olympic shooting enormously, but it wasn't taken by an olympic shooter.

bunny shooter · 11-05-2008 1:30pm

Publicity. We've been told to stay away from it.

My local gun clubs have for years published a list of members names, and names only in the local papers prior to the shooting season so farmers would have an idea who was in the club and had relevant insurance cover. Approx 2 x years ago a Garda request came via NARGC to ask clubs to cease this activity as criminals were robbing certain houses as they knew they held guns.

I would never allow myself to be photographed and it to be used in a public forum or magazine, newspaper as I am publicising to criminals that I have guns and maybe even what type. Even at comp's in Midlands we are given the option not to have our full name mention in results published in public places.

This is more important security than the two gun safes and monitored alarm fitted in my house. Whenever I take firearms out of my house they are ALWAYS in cases so no-body sees what I am taking out.

Sparks · 11-05-2008 8:04pm

Just to look at this on it's own, the publicity issue is something I've been shouting and banging my head off the wall on for years.

First off, your garda's wrong unless you're living in belfast in the 1980s. The National Crime Protection Unit's figures say 320 firearms stolen from homes a year - out of 230,000. Mostly from people who leave them lying about instead of in a gun cabinet - that's 0.1% and most of that is from those who wouldn't get a cert under the new secure storage requirements.

Secondly, I'm all for casing firearms and the usual precautions you talked about.

However - if we all lived by those rules, Derek Burnett and the other world champion clay shooters better cancel their Beijing trip now before they win a medal and risk becoming the most well-known sportsmen in Ireland for a few hours...

Thing is, you asked why the Gardai knew about olympic and not practical? The answer is the publicity. If you want the Gardai to know about your sport, you have to publicise it, it won't work any other way. And the publicity it's getting through the Examiner's coverage and the Star's coverage won't help your sport - in target shooting, there is such a thing as bad publicity.

There's a culture in Irish shooting going back to '72 which says sit down, shut up, keep quiet, don't let anyone know what you do.

And if we don't knock that culture on the head, it'll knock our sport on its.

patbundy · 11-05-2008 9:53pm

i can see your point sparks but i can see bunnys point too.its going to take a very big leap to go down that road.

dresden8 · 11-05-2008 10:09pm

There are shooters who live in less than kosher areas who don't want the local scumbags knowing that there are guns there for the taking.

That's a failing of the garda, not the shooters.

Edit. Actually that's probably a little unfair, it's the governments fault.

Bananaman · 11-05-2008 10:15pm

On the question of peoples names AND ADDRESSES being put in the public domain in relation to court cases involving firearms licensing.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that practice. I would hope that, in future, the courts would require that the names and addresses of those individuals not be allowed to be published as part of the court report.

If someone enters a public competition and wins it by all mean their name and the name of their club should be published if they wish it to be.

In IPSC every competitor has an Alias which they can choose when the join (and can never change). If you see "FrJack" winning Irelands first presidents medal - it's me!!!! All publicly quoted information, such as your world ranking, is published with your alias.

If the individual, their club or indeed country wish to publish their actual name that is their perogative.

I just have a REAL problem with peoples addresses, even the name of their town, which in rural areas amounts to the same thing, being published in relation to news regarding firearms - unless of course it is in relation to firearms offences which is not relevant to the topic.

B'Man

patbundy · 11-05-2008 10:17pm

dresden8 wrote: »

There are shooters who live in less than kosher areas who don't want the local scumbags knowing that there are guns there for the taking.

That's a failing of the garda, not the shooters.

Edit. Actually that's probably a little unfair, it's the governments fault.

thats is why we dont want pr sparks

jwshooter · 11-05-2008 10:35pm

patbundy wrote: »

thats is why we dont want pr sparks

sure were the nargc not looking for all our particulars a few years ago .amount of firearms what kind ,what we work at etc .i was at the meeting in enniscorthy the night they came out with it ,no way dano were they getting mine .what if this data base was nicked were all f....ed

IRLConor · 11-05-2008 10:43pm

There's a difference between names and addresses in a court judgement and names and photos in a match report or publicity piece.

My name and my photo have been published here and several other places in connection with shooting. My address is not available to the public though and neither are details of how and where I store the firearm I use.

There's a balance to be struck. It's possible to be more publicly visible without compromising your security.

dresden8 · 11-05-2008 10:59pm

Over the years when I lived in Finglas my celubrious neighbours included a rapist, a bank robber, a murderer, an IRA arms dump and numerous car thieves and petty robbers. We had junkies calling to the door trying to sell us stuff that they had nicked. That's out of approximately 16 houses on my road

Yeah, I should let them know I had guns.

Our man in Havana · 11-05-2008 11:04pm

I wholeheartedly disagree with that practice. I would hope that, in future, the courts would require that the names and addresses of those individuals not be allowed to be published as part of the court report.

I agree 100% with you. Judges can direct that names and addresses not be published. As well as not publishing the names and addresses, firearm licencing appeals should be heard on days other than the day of the criminal courts. That way there won't be scrotes in court absorbing the info. Maybe a more drastic measure would be for such appeals to be heard in camera.

Sparks · 11-05-2008 11:07pm

Bundy, sure it's a big leap. Olympic shooting took it. The rewards are self-evident. When people hide their identities, even if for reasons they believe to be utterly correct, the average Joe Q Public just sees it as suspicious. We've seen this time, and time, and time, and time, and time again.

For the record, by the way, if you really believe noone knows who you are or what you do, you're 99% certain to be wrong...

Banana, if you get the first president's medal, do you really want to be interviewed on the late late show about your achievement with your face pixellated and your voice disguised?

Sparks · 11-05-2008 11:09pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

Maybe a more drastic measure would be for such appeals to be heard in camera.

District court hearings can't be in camera, according to Superintendent Noel Clarke at the FCP conference on thursday, who was pointing out that going to the DC entails everything hitting the public domain...

Our man in Havana · 11-05-2008 11:12pm

Family law is always in camera including district courts. As said the judge can direct the media not to report the names and addresses.

Sparks · 11-05-2008 11:18pm

Don't shoot the messanger, if you'll pardon the pun Bond.

IRLConor · 11-05-2008 11:21pm

IRLConor wrote: »

My name and my photo have been published here and several other places in connection with shooting.

And I might add, I and many members of both DURC and UCDRC have often been seen in public wearing hoodies or jackets with the names of the clubs in big letters on the back. Short of a few odd looks nothing has come of it.

Sparks · 11-05-2008 11:28pm

Actually, we've picked up a fair few new shooters that way.

Bananaman · 11-05-2008 11:38pm

I doubt if anyone has a problem with their name or the name of their club being made public. It's their address that is the problem as in the case of the Tuam court case.

In terms of peoples images. Again, I think it is up to the individual and will probably depend on the publication.

For example when you enter an IPSA shoot you stipulate whether or not you will allow your image to be used in publicity so you have the ability to opt out if you feel your security may be compromised.

I'd have no problem with my image being displayed, in relation to a shooting competition, in the Irish Shooters Digest. I would be concerned, however, if my image was to be displayed, in relation to anything to do with shooting sports, in the Sunday World.

B'Man

patbundy · 11-05-2008 11:38pm

na spark i wont shoot,i really do see where your coming from.all sports need pr but and a very big but.....we must protect our firearm first

bigred · 12-05-2008 7:48am

I'm kinda caught between a rock and a hard place here. I shoot olympic stuff, yet, wouldnt dare tell any of my neighbours (my area is nice BTW, no real scumbags around). My reason for not telling is not security, it's the 'oh dear, scary man with gun(s) - might go nuts and shoot our precious children or fifi the cat. My child isn't allowed to play with your daughter in a house full of guns'.
As for security, if someone wants to rob you, they will. What's to stop a couple of bogeys from sitting in the Hilltop carpark and following someone home? As for names/faces in the papers I believe the risk to be small. I hope to represent Ireland this year, and would be quite happy with my name and town published. As for a photo, why not?

And finally I have one more question.. how many people who's name/photo/general details appeared in the paper in relation to olympic shooting have actually been targetted with the intent of stealing firearms? I think I know the answer already, but Sparks surely has the exact figures. In fact, or the couple of hundred thefts of firearms that we have, how many were sitting under a bed, or in the safe with the key in the lock?

Bananaman · 12-05-2008 8:21am

What's to stop a couple of bogeys from sitting in the Hilltop carpark and following someone home?

Only limited by your imagination.

I have an image in my head of a millwheel, with a bogey strapped to either side of it, rolling down the hill into newtown.

B'Man

Bananaman · 12-05-2008 8:28am

how many people who's name/photo/general details appeared in the paper in relation to olympic shooting have actually been targetted with the intent of stealing firearms?

In fairness - this was about peoples addresses being put in the public domain in relation to Firearms - I'm sure Sparks knows some stats on that one too.

If you live in Dublin, Cork or Galway and you picture appears in the local paper saying you won a medal for shooting, odds are nobody who knows you will see it unless you tell them.

If you live in a Rural area or small town and your picture appears in the paper for winning a medal in shooting. EVERYONE in the town will know it before you do.

Nobody has to be robbed to prove this is a bad idea.

Remember that when you get a license you accept a duty of care to keep that firearm out of the hands of those who should not have it.

Allowing the location of the storage of that firearm to become general knowledge, regardless of how you did it, is a dereliction of that duty.

In the case in point, a Court, who should know better, has put this information in the public domain.

B'Man

rrpc · 12-05-2008 9:42am

This thread is about publicity B'Man, the other one was about the court case and matters arising. I certainly agree that court reports should not include the addresses of the litigants, especially as it's the local papers that pick this up first.

On the publicity issue, I would feel that if we don't publicise our sport you get ill-informed specualtion, a sense of something hidden and therefore dangerous, suspicious and shameful.

Whereas if there is a steady stream of positive, open and matter of fact news and information, most people will adopt the 'well that's alright then' approach.

People will always fear the unknown.

Bananaman · 12-05-2008 9:51am

I agree that publicity is a good thing - as long as it is done with the permission of anyone who is named - or shamed.

B'Man

Sparks · 12-05-2008 11:16am

Bananaman wrote: »

In fairness - this was about peoples addresses being put in the public domain in relation to Firearms - I'm sure Sparks knows some stats on that one too.

Actually, I've only ever heard of one olympic shooter being targeted by criminals because they had firearms and that shooter was a firearms dealer, and he'd never been in the press so far as I know until afterwards. So far as I know, the thugs involved knew he sold firearms, not that he was a shooter himself.

If you live in a Rural area or small town and your picture appears in the paper for winning a medal in shooting. EVERYONE in the town will know it before you do.
Nobody has to be robbed to prove this is a bad idea.

I wouldn't preach it if I didn't practice it. And yes, my neighbours saw this before I did. They were round to the house that day to congratulate me. I've never had anything but positive reactions from that article. My local FO now knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'm serious about my sport. I got my air pistol licence inside of two or three weeks over the new year holiday as a result of that knowledge. My neighbours know what I do and as far as they're concerned, it's great that a "local" does well, it's something to be proud of.

And frankly, if I thought I had to hide away to do this sport, I'd quit and take up archery or something else where when an Irish person wins a medal, we're able to celebrate without fear.

Remember that when you get a license you accept a duty of care to keep that firearm out of the hands of those who should not have it.
Allowing the location of the storage of that firearm to become general knowledge, regardless of how you did it, is a dereliction of that duty.

That's a dangerous line of reasoning to go down though, because if the only way to keep your firearm secure is to ensure noone knows you have it, then it's very easy for someone to say you really shouldn't have one in the first place in the interests of public safety.

rrpc · 12-05-2008 11:37am

You do prone rifle a bit different from everyone else Sparks, most of us lie down

.

pullandbang · 12-05-2008 11:52am

Nothing wrong with publicity for shooters if they've achieved something or done something worthwhile in their community. All too often we read the bad publicity in relation to guns/shooting usually accompanied by ill informed editorials (Examiner!)

The profile of the sport needs to be highlighted to promote it to the younger generation and to encourage them into it. Articles like the one in the Wicklow Times do just that. Obviously home addresses should be ommitted.

Hopefully we'll be reading plenty about Derek Burnett on his return from the Olympics:)

It wasn't me! · 12-05-2008 11:53am

rrpc wrote: »

You do prone rifle a bit different from everyone else Sparks, most of us lie down .

I was going to say much the same when I saw the photo.

To be entirely honest, most of my friends would know I shoot at this stage. I don't make a secret of it; don't see the point. I know others who are very private about the fact that they shoot, and won't tell anyone unless asked, for their own reasons, and that's fair enough, but not something I want to do.

Sparks · 12-05-2008 11:57am

rrpc wrote: »

You do prone rifle a bit different from everyone else Sparks, most of us lie down .

True, true. Still kicked your ass though

Our man in Havana · 12-05-2008 12:00pm

Obviously home addresses should be ommitted.

+1 Positive publicity is always good, but common sense should prevail.

WRT court cases I don't see any reason why the applicant or their legal team don't make an application to the judge to order the media not to print/report names and addresses.

rrpc · 12-05-2008 12:07pm

Sparks wrote: »

True, true. Still kicked your ass though

By five points if I remember correctly. Not entirely sure that qualifies as an ass-kicking

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Publicity in shooting sports

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