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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Examiner Editorial

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    #32
    thehair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭thehair


    It wasn't me!
    Registered User
    blue_star_3.gif

    Join Date: Aug 2002
    Location: The wrong end of nowhere i used your e mail only with my detail
    Posts: 5,371
    Adverts | Friends

    E MAIL send and sig stephen in mayo
    and asked for reploy :)


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    #33
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    fishdog wrote: »
    PM sent bunny! Although it may not be that good:)

    Oh it was good alright. Borrowed it, hope you don't mind, obviouly added my contact details ;)


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    #34
    IDon'tKnow!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭IDon'tKnow!


    These stores should be covered as a negative on the Garda and not the shooting community. There is shooting competitions for all class of legally held firearms.
    If the editor put 9mm semi auto target shooting into any internet search engine he would know there is competitions for them.

    It’s mad to think that any publication would want the enforcers of the Law (The Garda) to become the law.

    The papers should be saying why are the Garda wasting court time on firearm issues for people who have every right to hold these guns.

    This should be about citizens having no choice but to fight for there rights in court. The Garda should not be wasting there resources on these matters.

    These local super are costing the Tax payer a lot of money bring these no win case to court. (I have a friend who was refused a .308 and told he could have .223, Super told him that he knows that if they go to court he will get the .308 but does he want to spend that long waiting and fighting for the .308 when he can have the .223 now).

    9mm pistols are not a cheap gun in Ireland (compared to the rest of EU and the USA). It is easier for the gangsters and drug dealer to get there guns on the black market and most likely cheaper then to buy and apply for the cert. After all they can’t use a licensed firearm for crime as that gun would be traceable back to them.

    If the local Super in this case had just passed there application like he should have, then these 2 lads would have got there 9mm pistols anonymously. Now there names and location are a matter of public record. The news papers are just short of giving out maps to the homes of firearm owners.


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    #35
    fish slapped
    Registered Users Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭fish slapped


    Nice one IWM something tells me you've done this before;) . Message sent!


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    #36
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    fish slapped wrote: »
    Nice one IWM something tells me you've done this before;) . Message sent!

    Ah, bitching is a natural thing for me. :p


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    #37
    fish slapped
    Registered Users Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭fish slapped


    It wasn't me! wrote: »
    Ah, bitching is a natural thing for me. :p

    Had to check your profile man, thought you might of been the missus:eek::eek::eek:


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    #38
    spideog7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭spideog7


    A good article in the court report of the Tuam Herald, I took a quick snap of it, sorry for the poor quality, I can post a better one when I leave the land of dial-up next week, if anyone wants it PM me.

    dsc00937fk9.th.jpg


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    #39
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,075 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    The Tuam Herald actually has it online. http://www.tuamherald.ie/pages/page3.pdf


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    #40
    dos29
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭dos29


    Nice to see the un-biased version in the tuam herald. Fair play to them. Says a lot for them that a smaller local paper can put together a hugely more informed, balanced and truthful article than a bigger national paper.


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    #41
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    The "combat shooting" referred to is Practical Shooting I presume. Gardai seem down on it ?

    Why does all reference to target shooting according to Gardai have the word Olympic in it somewhere ?


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Did anyone manage to pick up a copy of the Examiner yesterday? I'm curious to see if any of our replies made it into the paper.


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    #43
    fish slapped
    Registered Users Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭fish slapped


    I wish the boys luck in getting more than 100 rounds on their licences.


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    #44
    Bananaman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    In fairness you have to say that the article in the Tuam Herald was well written as a piece referring to a court decision.

    The Statements made by all parties and the court are stated and their opinions noted without any edtorial license.

    Whereas I agree with bunny that it is unfortunate that the gardai in question referred to Practical Pistol as Combat shooting the paper were spot on to quote them.

    Superintendents can make a determination or statement, they are perfectly within their rights to do so and there can be no edict from on high that they must refer to something as something. Thankfully the courts have ruled on the side of the target shooting community on this subject.

    I welcome the fact that the storage conditions for the firearms in question were stated and either already in place or undertaken.

    In my own opinion, the onus is now on the Gardai to now become more infomed about the individual disciplines, such as practical pistol, so that they can understand, good or bad, what in entails.

    Personally, I think it would be a good idea for small groups such as a Superintendent and a number of his FAOs to be invited to a demonstration PP1500, Timed precision and Practical Shoot which would be held "in their honour" so that they can see what it actually entails. That way they would get to see the extremely stringent safety procedures. Get to talk to some of the competitors about what it is and why they do it. Get to see some of the firearms and equipment that are in use and have their operation explained to them.

    That "should" help dispel some of the "spooky" aspects that they may have come to associate with centrefire pistols themselves and the sports in which they are required by association.

    B'Man


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    #45
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    I don't think there are questions over PP1500 or timed precision. These are static between practices eg moving from 10 yds - 15 yds I think it's practical type shooting that includes movement that's the problem according to DOJ eg moving across ranges to engage different targets


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    #46
    Bananaman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    True, however, in this case, the guys problem was with a centrefire pistol - not with what it was for.

    I think a demo of what we use centrefire pistols for and how we make it safe to do so would help with the prejudices that exist about them.

    I know that the courts ruling (various courts) precludes the super from making a decision based on the firearm type or calibre, however, in the intereste of detánte, I think, it would be good to show them what "we" are talking about.

    B'Man


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    #47
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    The Supers who seem to be impedeing gun ownership are IMO against all guns.

    My current Super has made no secret of the fact that he'd have them all confiscated if he could.

    Apparently he plays golf, so if someone goes looney with a golf club he might realise it's the looney, not the equipment that's the problem.


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    #48
    Bananaman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    My point about PP1500 and Timed Precision is that this super stated that a 9mm centrefire pistol would not be capable of attaining olympic standard precsion.

    I beg to differ - whereas it may not beat whoever takes the gold with an air pistol in Beijing (keeping in mind that nothing else could take that person/firearm either) - I have seen come PP and Timed precsion that is amazing - with Sigs, CZs, Glocks, Tanfolgios, STIs, SVIs, etc. 9mm, .40, .45, etc. Then these same guys - yes, they do it all - go out and shoot practical, with the same degree of precision.

    I think it would be an eye opener for some of our Gardai to see the standard of target shooting that has been attained with centrefire pistols.

    Timed Precision, static competitior, static target, cooper ready position.

    PP1500 - vertically dynamic shooter, static target, draw from holster

    Practical Pistol, totally dynamic shooter, static and dynamic targets, draw from holster.

    It would show a progression of the skills required but with the same underlying themes - safety, precision, speed.

    It would dispel any myths that one sport is competed in by one group of people or a small group of clubs but show that in actual fact the centrefire pistol sports in Ireland are well developed, considering the time we have had to do so and are of a very good standard which is maintained by a diverse club network nationwide.

    Then the next tme some guy from Tuam comes in looking for a license and starts to explain what it is for the super may have some context to look at it in, not just "some yahoos in a field - sure would you not go talk to the olympic types"

    B'Man


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    #49
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    I agree with you. I have shot a 40 S&W in the various PP comps, informal practical pistol and just general paper punching. And even if I say so myself I have shot good scores, as good as anyone who has shot for Ireland recently apparently.

    I have returned to a 22lr pistol as all I want to do is punch paper. However, this doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the full-bore pistol shooting, I just felt 22lr was enough for me.

    The constant reference by the Gardai to Olympic standards and comps and firearms is what cheeses me off :mad:

    It's as if there is no other type of shooting. We know form previous posts on here that a list/s of some description was/were submitted to the Gardai/DOJ by some Olympic organisation/s and/or individuals and it looks like the Gardai/DOJ have accepted them as the standard for everything no other discipline/typre of shooting exists or is allowed to exist.


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    #50
    Bananaman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    I don't think there is any value in arguing the point about olympic pistol disciplines, as there are very few with a limited range of possible firearms and calibres, which makes them unsuitable for what many of us, myself included, wish to do.

    I've done many of them but there was not enough interest among the people I shoot with to make it any craic. To me target shooting is a hobby as much as a sport and if it was no craic I wouldn't bother.

    I get the impression that the breeding ground for the olympic disciplies is the University Shooting clubs. People who join these clubs (freshers week, offered opportunity to shoot with no financial outlay, who would say no) partake using club equipment and a few keep it up after college. It's a bit of a closed circuit though as you can only join these clubs if you have attended the college. I never went to college so I suppose the opportunity never arose.

    I took up shooting in a regular shooting club (Hilltop) where interest was sufficient to join (obviously, it helps if they know who you are or another member does but whether you went to the right school has no bearing on it) so I was exposed to different shooting disciplines including fullbore pistol shooting where I progressed to what I regard as the pinnacle of competitive pistol shooting, namely IPSC Practical Pistol.

    It is easier to show, by example, that the other pistol disciplines, in fact, represent the majority of pistol shooters in Ireland and that the sports are as well, if not more, developed in Ireland than the Olympic disciplines.

    Once that has been shown to be true the "Olympic" argument becomes a moot one.

    Following the formation of the FCP and the recent conference there are more opportunities for the parties, other than the shooters themselves, to get concrete information on the other sports. The Olympic disciplines are here to stay. We just need to be sure that we don't hide an elephant behind a mouse.


    B'Man


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    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,589 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    To be honest, I am getting fed up with all the **** that has come to light recently about Olympic / non olympic shooting.

    Different folks, different strokes. I've shot fullbore pistol (had an ex National Champion and former Olympic athlete as a coach) and found it quite boring actually. Gimme an air or .22 pistol and I have much more fun.
    Bananaman wrote: »

    I get the impression that the breeding ground for the olympic disciplies is the University Shooting clubs. People who join these clubs (freshers week, offered opportunity to shoot with no financial outlay, who would say no) partake using club equipment and a few keep it up after college. It's a bit of a closed circuit though as you can only join these clubs if you have attended the college. I never went to college so I suppose the opportunity never arose.

    I take offence to this - as a former captain of one of the clubs I think I have done a hell of a lot for promoting Irish shooting. We have over 500 members the year I was captain and I have given up a hell of a lot of time, money and commitment to train in new people, to train RO's, to scrounge for a couple of hundred quid here and there so we can afford to send people off to competitions over the past four years.

    Are you saying this is wrong? That we should offer shotgun, pp, black powder to everyone? We are bloody target club, not a national shooting body ffs. Don't ****ing blame us for your problems.


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    #52
    Bananaman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    Zaraba,

    Probably best to have your coffee before posting.

    At no time did I give out about the University Clubs - I simply said they are a closed shop as you must either be in or have attended the college to join. This is not an opportunity I had, therefore I had no exposure to the disciplines which those clubs promote.

    I commend you on your efforts while captain of the club. No club can exist without it's grafters and it is often times a thankless job.

    I don't have any problems. Bunny stated that he was pissed off by hearing all the stories of Superitendents pulling out the old "Olympic" chestnut. I was simpy stating what my approach would be to allevaiating this.

    B'Man


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    #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,589 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Apologies - have my finals a in week so am a bit wound up at the moment.

    I read your post as another of 'ISSF shooting is the root of all evil in Ireland', which unfortunately is getting more prolific these days.


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    #54
    BryanL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭BryanL


    another thing that annoys me in all these cases is the references to English law! the states counsel brought it to the courts attention that handguns are banned in england,scotland and wales,whats it got to do with us? seems to me like some people have no independence of thought?
    why not quote scandanavian or austrailian law?

    and on the olympic thing, few of us would ever reach olympic standard but can still enjoy what we do
    giving out the names and addresses of the 2 guys in the case, seems beyond careless
    Bryan


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    #55
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Most judges in cases I've heard of here will eat you alive for quoting English law.


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    #56
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Apologies - have my finals a in week so am a bit wound up at the moment.

    Good luck ;)


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    #57
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    bunny shooter wrote: »
    The constant reference by the Gardai to Olympic standards and comps and firearms is what cheeses me off :mad:
    It's as if there is no other type of shooting.
    Ever seen a report in the public domain on a practical shooting match that had names and photos and pushed the sport actively, creating sporting figureheads to point at and follow? No, not until very, very recently (as in, this month). For years, several people in olympic shooting were doing just that, however, and it made it into the papers and the radio and the television, giving shooting the only positive coverage it was getting at the time. And that image stuck - so now you have gardai saying that some shooting is better than others, rather than what you had before, which was gardai saying all shooting was bad. It's progress. It's not done yet. And when practical and silhouette (who to be fair did push as well but seem to have died back now) and gallery and all the other disciplines start putting in years of focussed effort into PR and their shooters start buying into it and agreeing to be photographed and written about, then we'll see further progress.

    But it's incredibly unfair to say the olympic people did something wrong. We did what we were supposed to do as the olympic NGBs, and we broke our backs doing it, and every other discipline benefitted from our work as well. Which is how it should be. Just because I do something for my discipline, does not mean that thing will only benefit my discipline. For example, the pistols case has benefitted olympic shooting enormously, but it wasn't taken by an olympic shooter.
    We know form previous posts on here that a list/s of some description was/were submitted to the Gardai/DOJ by some Olympic organisation/s and/or individuals and it looks like the Gardai/DOJ have accepted them as the standard for everything no other discipline/typre of shooting exists or is allowed to exist.
    And that's flat-out wrong. Call the head of the IPSA and ask him about it.


    By the way, there's this idea that "olympic shooter" means "olympic medal winner". It's nothing of the sort. Olympic shooting is just another kind of match, with specific rules on targets and kit - it does not require exceptional levels of talent or anything like that.

    And the college clubs have produced tens of thousands of trained shooters in their lifetime, many of whom now run clubs, shoot in other disciplines, and generally have been a boon to the entire community. Just because the college clubs are not allowed by the college authorities to accept non-students/alumni/staff as members isn't a reason to think less of them. If DURC or UCDRC could take in non-college people as members, they'd do it tomorrow because it'd mean they'd have access to a lot more experienced people, it'd mean they'd see their standards rise, and it'd give them access to the sports capital grants scheme, and that's just the basic pragmatic stuff.


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    #58
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Publicity. We've been told to stay away from it.

    My local gun clubs have for years published a list of members names, and names only in the local papers prior to the shooting season so farmers would have an idea who was in the club and had relevant insurance cover. Approx 2 x years ago a Garda request came via NARGC to ask clubs to cease this activity as criminals were robbing certain houses as they knew they held guns.

    I would never allow myself to be photographed and it to be used in a public forum or magazine, newspaper as I am publicising to criminals that I have guns and maybe even what type. Even at comp's in Midlands we are given the option not to have our full name mention in results published in public places.

    This is more important security than the two gun safes and monitored alarm fitted in my house. Whenever I take firearms out of my house they are ALWAYS in cases so no-body sees what I am taking out.


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    #59
    chem
    Registered Users Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭chem


    bunny shooter wrote: »
    The Supers who seem to be impedeing gun ownership are IMO against all guns.

    My current Super has made no secret of the fact that he'd have them all confiscated if he could.

    Apparently he plays golf, so if someone goes looney with a golf club he might realise it's the looney, not the equipment that's the problem.

    Bunny. If you are ever talking to the super over a gun licence, turn it to golf for him and ask him "Could you play a round of golf, with only a putter?" likly answer "Eh No" your reply " well how do you expect me to compete, in different shooting sports, with only one gun?"

    Turn the case around to something he will understand;)


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    #60
    bunny shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    chem wrote: »
    Bunny. If you are ever talking to the super over a gun licence, turn it to golf for him and ask him "Could you play a round of golf, with only a putter?" likly answer "Eh No" your reply " well how do you expect me to compete, in different shooting sports, with only one gun?"

    Turn the case around to something he will understand;)

    A firend of mine did this, Super wasn't best pleased with his logic :D


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    #61
    Bananaman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    Always the negative read.

    I wasn't having a go at the olympic shooting disciplines or saying there was anything wrong with the University clubs.

    I simply stated that we need to get the supers and gardai in general to recognise the centrefire pistol shooting discplines, other than the olympic ones (which I doubt they could describe to us and as sparks pointed out in a different thread, nobody takes part in anyway) for what they actually are - first hand experience - rather than being told by someone who may or may not have taken part in one or more of those discplines.

    In my opinion the best way to do this is to hold an actual, albeit exhibition, shoot comprising a number of disciplines, for that specific purpose.

    I just pointed out that the college clubs would be the primary nursery for new people getting into the olympic disciplines. Someone else pointed out those clubs are focused on only olympic discplines due to limitations of people to admin the sports and limitations on their authorisations. That's not a problem, there are loads of clubs that cater for a wider range of pistol displines.

    I do find it a pain in the fáinne that the old "olympic" card is played by various supers. Primarily because, in the context of pistol shooting, it is partaken of by a small % of the people who actually shoot pistols competitively.

    B'Man


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