The Irish mother

SLUSK · 23-08-2009 3:51pm #1

What is the Irish mother like? I heard some real horror stories about Irish mothers who let their sons live with them well into their late 20ies and serve them hand and foot while at the same time giving their own daughters the cold shoulder when they come for help. Are Irish mothers spoiling their sons to much? Are they very domineering mothers?

metrovelvet · 23-08-2009 4:05pm

Ok, Im going to make sweeping generalisations here, but given the racist, matriphobic title of this thread, really I have very little room to manoever.

Yes they are domineering. But they can also seem like complete slaves.

The doting on the son, imo comes from this turning their sons into husbands, because their husbands are lousy and not affectionate, probably because they had an Irish domineering mother who taught them how to relate to women through power, rather than through something healthier and more collaborative.

Ickle Magoo · 23-08-2009 4:29pm

In fairness mothers can only serve someone hand on foot who is accepting that service. I don't think the fault lies with any one party. Is it the mothers fault for accepting the washing their son brings home or the son's fault for even contemplating to bring it, is it the mothers fault the son hasn't chosen to move out by 35? From my experience (not just in Ireland), for the most part it seems to be a fairly symbiotic relationship.

My MIL is lovely. She didn't have any daughters so I have no comparisons but I do find the rather archaic expectation that I & the other female relatives help with dinner & so on, while my husband lounges around with the other men a bit odd. I remember one Christmas getting up at silly o'clock to help her get dinner on & by the time we had ours plated & went through, a number of the menfolk were finished & leaving the table to watch telly.

While I think that is so boorish & there is no way in hell it would happen in my family, I hold my MIL as responsible for clearly accepting such treatment for so many years as I do for those that showed such utter thoughtlessness.

MizzLolly · 23-08-2009 4:40pm

Yup, I love my gran soo much but when I lived with her I really seen how this Irish Mammy thing can work. I was 17. Her son was 28. I was in college and working part time. Her son was on the dole playing computer games all night and sleeping all day. I'd come in from work (after college) and be told to tidy the kitchen or have some comments passed over the floors not being swept.

True story!

Salome · 23-08-2009 5:35pm

I call it Irish Mammy Syndrome - I know some mothers who are so domineering over every aspect of their sons' lives that any strong woman that enters into the equation ends up battling their MIL at every turn.

lizzyvera · 23-08-2009 5:47pm

Those young men are in for a shock when they find out their modern girlfriends will not do all the housework and cooking.

Spoiling your children and looking after them excessively always does more harm than good. They end up helpless. It applies to males and females. I know girls who's daddies picked them up after nights out regularly. It promotes paranoia and dependence, just as pampering your son promotes bad diet and hygiene when they do eventually move out.

metrovelvet · 23-08-2009 6:19pm

^ It's treating them like they are incompetent. I sometimes suspect contempt and not love is behind it.

SLUSK · 23-08-2009 7:00pm

To be fair this syndrome is quite common in the western world, back home in Sweden they are called "curling parents", they rule over their kids life, are extremely overprotecting, hook them up with good jobs when they graduate and so on. What happens when these parents die and these spoiled overprotected children who now are adults are left to their own devices?

DublinWriter · 23-08-2009 7:01pm

SLUSK wrote: »

Are Irish mothers spoiling their sons to much? Are they very domineering mothers?

Q. How many Irish mammies does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. "It's alright Son, don't worry about me, I'll just sit here in the dark".

Dr_Phil · 23-08-2009 7:05pm

SLUSK wrote: »

well into their late 20ies

30's my dear, 30's....

I know about 6 handbags living with their mumies when the're 25-40 years of age. Don't think it's an Irish thing though. Used to know quite few in Poland too.

SLUSK · 23-08-2009 7:13pm

Maybe it's a catholic thing... hear they have the same kind of culture in Italy and other latino countries.

Thephantomsmask · 23-08-2009 7:28pm

Categoric proof that Jesus was Irish, he lived at home until he was 30 and his mother thought he was god. The best example I've seen was after my grandmother broke her collar bone. My lazy lump of an uncle comes in and plonks himself into the closest chair. A few minutes later my grandmother comes in trying to carry a mug of tea and a plate and apologises saying "I'm sorry about the barmbrack, I couldn't butter it properly with my bad arm"

Dudess · 23-08-2009 7:41pm

This is the Jewish mother stereotype too - and in fairness, stereotypes have their roots in truth... it just becomes problematic when people apply them to entire populations.
Yeah, my gran, who doesn't apologise for thinking women are inferior to men, did absolutely everything for her sons... while her daughters are domestic goddesses. My mother isn't too bad for it though (there's a little there all right though but in fairness, her boys were gone in their early/mid 20s). I imagine it's dying out.

DublinWriter · 23-08-2009 7:53pm

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

Categoric proof that Jesus was Irish, he lived at home until he was 30 and his mother thought he was god.

..and he thought his mother was a virgin.

stiff kitten · 23-08-2009 8:01pm

Dr_Phil wrote: »

30's my dear, 30's....

I know about 6 handbags living with their mumies when the're 25-40 years of age. Don't think it's an Irish thing though. Used to know quite few in Poland too.

i dont know about you but im earning buttons and i can only laugh when i hear the cost of a decent house....it's not by choice that this group is still living with parents

DublinWriter · 23-08-2009 8:04pm

stiff kitten wrote: »

i dont know about you but im earning buttons and i can only laugh when i hear the cost of a decent house....it's not by choice that this group is still living with parents

And the problem with renting is?....*ducks*

SLUSK · 23-08-2009 8:06pm

DublinWriter wrote: »

And the problem with renting is?....*ducks*

They say renting is "dead money" so therefore it is better to live with you parents until you are 30 and can afford the deposit for a piece of crap shoebox in North Dublin.

Birdie086 · 23-08-2009 8:08pm

I thought it was bad in Ireland untill i went to Italy a for our family a few years in a row. My step father is Italian and we spent a lot of time with his family. The mothers do EVERYTHING for there boys and the grannys run around babysitting up there 80's!!!

Faith · 23-08-2009 8:43pm

My mother is bad for this. I moved to a different country at 18 and started a very difficult course. I just graduated from college and straight away started looking for jobs. I'm starting a new course in September. I got so much grief about not being able to get a job, how I wasn't trying hard enough, how I should have been working all throughout my first degree anyway... It was fairly brutal.

Meanwhile, my brother lived at home until he was 22, when he was literally handed a house of his own*. He did an arts degree, doing all the same subjects my mum had done a few years before, and bummed all her notes (still failing several exams). After college, he more or less took 5 years out to sit on his arse, working part-time here and there. He went back and did another Masters, which he's just finished, and rather than looking for jobs, he's "taking a break" and applying for the dole. To which my mum said, "Okay love". (Meanwhile, his wife works full-time, cooks, cleans, etc - and she's not even Irish!)

A friend of mine has the same problem. Her parents funded her older brother all through uni, where he only just got a pass degree. He never worked a day and was given all he wanted. Meanwhile, she had to get a part-time job throughout uni just to be able to afford food.

It seems quite common. My OH's mum isn't really like that at all though. Maybe it's because she lived in Germany for many years, with a German husband. And while I enjoy cooking dinner for my OH if he's been at work all day, generally we share out all the chores and things.

SLUSK · 23-08-2009 9:16pm

Faith wrote: »

My mother is bad for this. I moved to a different country at 18 and started a very difficult course. I just graduated from college and straight away started looking for jobs. I'm starting a new course in September. I got so much grief about not being able to get a job, how I wasn't trying hard enough, how I should have been working all throughout my first degree anyway... It was fairly brutal.

Meanwhile, my brother lived at home until he was 22, when he was literally handed a house of his own*. He did an arts degree, doing all the same subjects my mum had done a few years before, and bummed all her notes (still failing several exams). After college, he more or less took 5 years out to sit on his arse, working part-time here and there. He went back and did another Masters, which he's just finished, and rather than looking for jobs, he's "taking a break" and applying for the dole. To which my mum said, "Okay love". (Meanwhile, his wife works full-time, cooks, cleans, etc - and she's not even Irish!)

A friend of mine has the same problem. Her parents funded her older brother all through uni, where he only just got a pass degree. He never worked a day and was given all he wanted. Meanwhile, she had to get a part-time job throughout uni just to be able to afford food.

It seems quite common. My OH's mum isn't really like that at all though. Maybe it's because she lived in Germany for many years, with a German husband. And while I enjoy cooking dinner for my OH if he's been at work all day, generally we share out all the chores and things.

Did you ever ask your mother why she treated you so differently?

Faith · 23-08-2009 9:37pm

SLUSK wrote: »

Did you ever ask your mother why she treated you so differently?

No, it would probably provoke a row and accusations of me being ungrateful, so I just leave it alone.

It was touched on recently when I moved back to Ireland. I approached my parents and asked them if they would consider helping me pay rent so that I could move out of their house. I felt this was fair given that they bought a house for my bro without him even asking for it. They refused though, and just said circumstances were different. In their defence, they did let me live in an apartment they owned free of charge throughout my undergrad in the UK, so it's not like I was homeless or anything!

I suppose it's a bit odd, given that my mum had no brothers. I guess it's a societal thing, rather than just being learned from your own family. They do sound much worse in Italy though!

bronte · 23-08-2009 9:53pm

Arrgh! Irish Mammies! :mad:
My 22 yr old brother and 50-something father do not know how to operate a washing machine. Seriously.
I was home recently and herself was away on holiday, so the boys required my assistance when they ran out of clothes. :rolleyes:
I told them they were a bloody disgrace and spent the rest of the week asking them what other basic tasks they weren't able to do, but it's like water off a ducks back really.
I've had heated arguments with mum about the way she does everything for them,then comes to me and bitches about how much work she has to do.
Tis like talking to a brick wall. I love her, but christ she can annoy me at times! :mad:

metrovelvet · 23-08-2009 9:58pm

^ Lol. My 2 year old can operate the hoover.

bronte · 23-08-2009 10:13pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

^ Lol. My 2 year old can operate the hoover.

It's unreal! I don't know if I should scream at them or feel sorry for them.
Probably both.

damnyanks · 23-08-2009 10:34pm

Know plenty of girls do this as well. It's usually what happens to people who stay in the same village, circle of friends etc. after school. They become lazy and fall into a rut.

cuckoo · 24-08-2009 3:55am

It can be a bit shocking to me when i come across the sons of such homes, when they can't do the simplest of things.... My brothers all know how to look after a home and themselves - there was never any difference made between us growing up in that regard.

However, i agree with the poster upthread who mentioned that some Irish Daddies can be over protective of their daughters. I have a couple of female friends who never took a taxi or nightlink home through out their teens or twenties - they used to ring the Daddy Taxi at 4am and he'd come out in his pjs to collect them. They're now married/living with someone, and they regularly get their fellas to drive out to collect them.

One other friend of mine rings her father to come over and put in new lightbulbs and change fuses for her, another gets her father to come over and mow the lawn and clean up the garden.

Parents of both genders can raise children that 'need' them.

I heard the phrase 'helicopter parent' in the US a few years ago, parents who hover around their children 24/7.

emma82 · 24-08-2009 10:23am

Yep- the god sent brothers rule the house! The mothership runs after them- they don't know how to use a washing machine, cook spuds, hoover- nothing!!!! They both work good jobs but still get 'pocket money' from the mothership!!! Its disgraceful!!! If any of the three girls in the house did that we'd get the mothership death stare!!! :mad:

Worst of all is she fcukin moans bout running after them to all & sundry but refuses to actually do anything about it- like- I dunno- just stopping & letting the lazy lumps fend for themselves:eek::eek:!!! Both will make terrible husbands as they haven't a clue about how a house runs!!!!

SeekUp · 24-08-2009 2:10pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

^ Lol. My 2 year old can operate the hoover.

As it should be!!!

Wibbs · 24-08-2009 6:37pm

Oh there is an element of Irish mammy syndrome, but I don't blame the women, I blame the emotionally weak men they ended up with just as much. OK 50 years ago there was some excuse with the more marked delineation of household duties, but nowadays there's little excuse. Again I lay this at the men's feet more than the women.

In my experience when I've met a young "irish mammy tm" in training, the story is nearly always the same. Her mammy(and the other matriarchs) is the strong one at home. Her daddy follows the mammys orders completely and rarely stands up for himself and when he does it's over something trivial. The usual excuse is that they want the quiet life. I call shenanigans on that one.

Always following orders for the quiet life is guaranteed to make the woman in his life more frustrated and more dictatorial. Basically because she's the one in control all the time and she doesn't want that. She's looking for an equal partner, but ended up with an emotionally spineless one, so she pushes the guy hoping against hope he'll react in a strong way. If he does, cool, then they have an equal partnership, if not it gets worse.

Sadly she repeats the same environment with her sons, only with more control going on. The sons grow up to be on the surface OK, even overtly macho, but revert to type down the line as that's all they've ever been exposed to and the daughters the same. The father takes over the "irish daddy tm" role with the daughters. He's the one who will pull out all the stops to support the daughters. They never have to change a plug or put petrol in her car etc. Rinse and repeat.

So of course the women like that need to be in control. They're the strong ones. They've no choice really as the men usually aren't. I would also say that there are more emotionally strong and adaptable women out there than equivalent men. The men may appear very together, but I have been so surprised over the years how weak that edifice was. Certainly at odds with what I would have believed as a spotty youth. The irony is that I've become far more of a feminist over the years not because of overt feminists, but more because of watching strong women in otherwise very traditional, even chauvinistic situations.

I would agree on the latins being very similar if not worse. The Italians in particular. The boys are treated like gods, but it's even more of a control thing IMHO. On the surface it looks like the guys have all the say, but in reality the women run damn near everything. If you need anything done you go to the women. I even found that here in Ireland in a weird way. Years ago if I was down the country with my dad and we were looking to fish somewhere and needed permission, my dad always advised me to go straight to the matriarch of the family. If you passed muster with her you were good to go and none of the men would object.

Oh The Humanity · 24-08-2009 6:55pm

^^Agree with all that except the 'Irish Daddies' bit. Daughters of the old fashioned Irish Daddy were often little more than an irritation to be offloaded at the first opportunity. A 'miss' rather than a hit

That way of thinking is so entrenched that even now when a womans first baby is a girl I find myself thinking. sh1t, well they can always try again. which is worrying.

The way I was reared it was made clear girls were a drain/waste of money.

This business of men treating their daughters like Princesses seems a new phenomenon to me.

In the old days female children were openly regarded as a waste of food and were not educated and let know in no uncertain terms they were nothing but a support act to the Gods (males) who must be mollycoddled at all costs.

Boys were the only people that mattered and girls were invisible or ignored.

Snowie · 24-08-2009 7:15pm

A lot of people say mammy's rule the house, In my house it was different they booth did.

My dad tuck care of all school related matter suspension's, parent teacher meeting's, dealing with his too boys problems he made the dessions like if we where going out or how late we could stay out what sport's he introduced us to.
Who we hung around with to a degree.

My mum tock care of bills and food and they booth I might add did jobs around the house at the age of 65 booth of them my dad does the ironing while watching live concerts on his entertainment, system.s my mum looks after her jobs such as washing the cloths etc and they booth run a b&b and booth do the bedrooms.

It was very different In my house hold they booth where responsible enough to,
look after every one. I always turned to my dad, when I had a problem and my mum some times I just felt my dad was better at advise where as my mum just goes oh you poor thing which isnt really helpful...:rolleyes:

Also my old man isnt sexist but says this a lot women can multi task but they never finish the jobs properly leave a man to do one job and its done properly.
He owned his own company and my mum was never involved in it. Most men wives are always...

Latchy · 24-08-2009 7:15pm

I can relate to what's being said in a lot of posts here .My mother had a very strange way of letting you know who was to be looked after 1rst in the pecking order of things .For instance one of my brothers would have his food handed to him on plate when he came home , his shirts washed and ironed for next day . Brother two would come home , after stopping off at pub for a few and have same treatment .I on the other hand would be expected to cook clean ,wash up , iron etc and although I had no problem with that ( still dont ) it bugged me no end that they got treated better .

But then I realised that was my mothers way of trying to control , get back and punish me for some slight I may / may not have done to annoy her ( real or imagined ) . She was very odd in her ways .

I dont live at home any more , haven't done for many years .But they still do and still are to a degree ,dependent on my mother even though she is getting on in years .

Wibbs · 24-08-2009 7:26pm

Oh The Humanity wrote: »

This business of men treating their daughters like Princesses seems a new phenomenon to me.

Oh I would agree, it's a relatively recent thing, but I've certainly noticed it in the last say 15/20 years anyway. Maybe it's the economic upswing and the fact that women are more equal compared to the past.

The stuff you hear in life and on boards from a lot of guys going on about how harsh Irish women can be is part of that recent thing. I could be wrong, but I think if boards was around 20 years ago you wouldn't hear a tenth of that opinion. I certainly never heard it to that degree when I was 20. Now you may have heard guys moan about women, but it was a general thing(and women would be similar about men too) and not so bitter sounding. Not among the guys I hung out with or were around and I don't think I nor my circle would have been unusual. And yes there were foreign women about the place back then too(though not in the same numbers).

That way of thinking is so entrenched that even now when a womans first baby is a girl I find myself thinking. sh1t, well they can always try again. which is worrying.

Oh I know fathers who kept going until they had the son and heir, even after 4 or 5 daughters in. The whole old thing of when seeing a baby in a pram "is it a boy or a child?".

Brijoeire · 24-08-2009 7:27pm

I've had an Irish MIL and a Swedish one. Total polar opposites. The Swedish one explained all his behaviour away with 'oh he is young and learning' but still being friendly with me. The Irish one sends me death daggers if I say anything but wonderful things about my OH. She has told him that no matter what happens it will always be my fault and he has her support.

I have 3 boys and I'm all for loving them, but I'm not sure loving blindly will help them grow into strong men. That's juust me though

Bridget

metrovelvet · 24-08-2009 7:42pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I would agree, it's a relatively recent thing, but I've certainly noticed it in the last say 15/20 years anyway. Maybe it's the economic upswing and the fact that women are more equal compared to the past.

.

Would you say that has to do with the economy or Ireland's "sexual revolution." I know it's hard to locate it because they seem to have coincided.

The treating your daughter like a princess is I believe connected to a number of things, one is status, and the other is that we are far more aware and sensitised to a predatorial world. And also, like Wibbs mentioned, the weakness behind the facade, the inability of putting the foot down, the fear of looking like the bad guy. I suppose also, if you're wife is too domineering to let you play out your protective role, if that's what you're into, well then act it out on your daughter.

Wibbs · 25-08-2009 9:44am

metrovelvet wrote: »

Would you say that has to do with the economy or Ireland's "sexual revolution." I know it's hard to locate it because they seem to have coincided.

I'd say more the economy in my humble.

I suppose also, if you're wife is too domineering to let you play out your protective role, if that's what you're into, well then act it out on your daughter.

+1 I'd reckon it's a helluva lot to do with that. Of course he'll usually end up unwittingly cloning the mother.

Kimia · 25-08-2009 2:11pm

This is all very interesting. What do you do if you have ended up with one of these sons of an Irish Mammy? I know there may be cries of 'dump him' etc but what if you truly love him?

metrovelvet · 25-08-2009 2:34pm

^ They are all mammy's boys my dear. Even the ones who aren't Irish.

BUT! They are not all over infanitlised, incompetent, imbeciles. Those are the ones who have this complex mixture of contempt and dependency on mammy, and I suspect take out their displaced hostility on the women they are with, on other words active [as opposed to theoretical] mysogynists. To be avoided.

Oh The Humanity · 25-08-2009 5:38pm

Kimia wrote: »

This is all very interesting. What do you do if you have ended up with one of these sons of an Irish Mammy? I know there may be cries of 'dump him' etc but what if you truly love him?

Had to dump one in the past. It was impossible to entertain the ridiculous creature.

I couldn't de-evolve myself to the point that I was an invisible servant of his every whim!

Thats why I think these parents who spoil their kids beyond belief are really setting them up for a life of misery. Partners will not put up with their inflated expectations!

pickarooney · 26-08-2009 12:02am

I was never aware that this phenomenon was widespread in Ireland. I've heard (and seen) it in Italian, French, Jewish, Arabic, Pied noir, Hungarian households but don't know more than one or two cases of it amongst Irish families. I guess we sometimes know our own the least well

netwhizkid · 26-08-2009 12:27am

I love my mammy and she is so totally like this, she invades your room to tidy it and make the beds but what I really dislike is when they start giving relationship advice such as you can't go out with her etc.

Recently my mam and sister went away for a week so my father and auntie next door and I decided to pull a practical joke on her.

We proceeded rather than doing the washup to use every single glass, plate etc. in the house and piled them all up in the sink and let them stink in the dishwasher (which my father can't operate). We also used up most of the clothes and left a lorry load of clothes in the overflowing laundry hamper for washing.

My aunt also helped out by telling them she brought us the dinner most evenings or else we had takeaways. I also slept in a different spare bed (big house) each night rather than make my own.

When they returned my father was nearly killed as WWIII erupted, I got away scot free and the whole point of the exercise was to get her to come to grips with the fact that we can do stuff on our own so she doesn't have to do everything. She went on strike for about a month after finding the pigsty but is back to her old mammy ways since.

paperclipgrad · 19-04-2013 12:18pm

My mother is American, my mother in law is from Northern Ireland.

My husband does all the vacuuming and has no problem doing laundry- he did it at home. He also does the billpaying (I hate financial type stuff, but keep an eye on the budget). I do the daily house stuff, he does wash up a couple of times a week. He also does all the garden stuff and the rubbish/recycling. The occasional meal (on the weekends).

My brothers were always made to do things around the house, washing up, windows and so on. They are expected to know how to cook.

I can't understand why a mother would send a son off to college to fend for himself with no idea of how to clean up after himself, do his own laundry or cook decent meals. What if he never gets married? Is he expected to just make himself koka noodles every day for dinner? My kids will all learn how to cook and do things around the house. It's just a normal human thing.

19-04-2013 12:21pm

Hi paperclipgrad, this thread is 4 years old, it's best not to bump old threads

The Irish mother

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