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The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

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Comments

  • #3702
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    I'd not know the specifics of the case or much about Australian legal system beyond it it is a common law country. Offhand, given the various common law privileges that are present (Journalistic, legal, medical etc) and the impact that such a prosecution could have on them would depend on both how much the guilty mind/mens rea could be proved at the time. So I'd agree with Peregrnius, would be very fact dependant.


  • #3703
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yup. At this point we don't know exactly what Wilson is said to have known, or when or how he is said to have come to know it so, whatever instinctive suspicions we might have, it's not really possible to make any meaningful judgment about whether or when he should have reported what he knew.

    For the record, though, in the various newspaper reports of this matter that have appeared in Australia I haven't seen any suggestion or hint that Wilson came to know of whatever he knew in the context of hearing confession, and I doubt that this will form part of any defence that he offers. Reportedly, the prosecution will relate to what Wilson knew or didn't know, and did or didn't do with his knowledge, about abuse committed by one Fr. Dennis McAlinden in 1985. McAlinden was a priest in the diocese of Maitland-Newcastle; Wilson was Vicar-General of that diocese from 1987 to 1990, and in that capacity was involved in dealing with the McAlinden abuse when it came the knowledge of the diocese. (McAlinden was transferred to a remote parish in a diocese in Western Australia where, we are not surprised to learn, he continued his abusive behaviour.)

    So probably whatever knowledge is involved here will turn out to be something he acquired as Vicar-General of the diocese, not as a priest hearing anybody's confession.


  • #3704
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Now this is a lift and paste from F/B. I find it incredulous that such an apparently adult person could come out with the remark attributed to him, it's so impossible to relate it to some-one who should have been aware that priests having sex with children was illegal. If it is a true and absolutely accurate record of what he said, then it exposes the weakness of the RC hierarchy mind-set that a member doesn't even that child-rape is: 1. a criminal offence, and 2. certainly not what Christ had in mind for his followers as a pursuit. Interestingly enough, he was caught out as conflicted in his testimony, as the attorney had possession of documents about the archbishop discussing one child abuse case and the statute of limitations.

    http://churchandstate.org.uk/2014/06/st-louis-archbishop-claims-he-wasnt-sure-it-was-illegal-for-priests-to-have-sex-with-kids/


  • #3705
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Now this is a lift and paste from F/B. I find it incredulous that such an apparently adult person could come out with the remark attributed to him, it's so impossible to relate it to some-one who should have been aware that priests having sex with children was illegal. If it is a true and absolutely accurate record of what he said, then it exposes the weakness of the RC hierarchy mind-set that a member doesn't even that child-rape is: 1. a criminal offence, and 2. certainly not what Christ had in mind for his followers as a pursuit. Interestingly enough, he was caught out as conflicted in his testimony, as the attorney had possession of documents about the archbishop discussing one child abuse case and the statute of limitations.

    http://churchandstate.org.uk/2014/06/st-louis-archbishop-claims-he-wasnt-sure-it-was-illegal-for-priests-to-have-sex-with-kids/
    Ha. I came across this before in another case, but then when you look at the records you find that whilst they did not know it was a crime they, for some unknown reason, took out insurance policies against claims for damages as a result of child rape. Funny that they did not know it was illegal, but took insurance out to protect them against the fallout.

    MrP


  • #3706
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Truly disgusting.

    I suppose the Archbishop of Drive-By Posting is going to come around with a post with only the word "Trite" written in it.


  • #3707
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Truly disgusting.

    I suppose the Archbishop of Drive-By Posting is going to come around with a post with only the word "Trite" written in it.

    Does it never end .


  • #3708
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Ha. I came across this before in another case, but then when you look at the records you find that whilst they did not know it was a crime they, for some unknown reason, took out insurance policies against claims for damages as a result of child rape. Funny that they did not know it was illegal, but took insurance out to protect them against the fallout.
    Actually, no conflict there. You take out insurance against a risk of civil liability. You can incur civil liability (i.e. an obligation to compensate someone) for lots of acts that are not crimes- breach of contract, breach of your duty of care to another, professional negligence, etc.


  • #3709
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    More on the mother-and-baby homes:
    Going Strong wrote: »
    More grim news.

    Concerns that up to 1,000 children may have been “trafficked” to the US from the Tuam mother and baby home in “a scandal that dwarfs other, more recent issues with the Church and State” were raised by the HSE in 2012.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/special-investigation-fears-over-trafficking-of-children-to-the-us-334315.html

    Here's an interesting excerpt:
    It notes there were letters from the Tuam mother and baby home to parents asking for money for the upkeep of their children and notes that the duration of stay for children may have been prolonged by the order for financial reasons.

    It also uncovered letters to parents asking for money for the upkeep of some children that had already been discharged or had died. The social worker, “working in her own time and on her own dollar”, had compiled a list of “up to 1,000 names”, but said it was “not clear yet whether all of these relate to the ongoing examination of the Magdalene system, or whether they relate to the adoption of children by parents, possibly in the USA”.
    Going Strong wrote: »
    And even more.

    The State has said it was horrified by the revelations about the 796 babies buried at Tuam. However, HSE reports into Tuam and Bessborough mother and baby homes had been prepared for the Government two years previously

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/special-investigation-government-already-knew-of-baby-deaths-334260.html

    I also found this bit interesting:
    The report highlights the “intricacies of Bessborough’s accounting practices”, and that “detailed financial records and accounts were not handed over to the HSE by the Sacred Heart Order”.

    We also learn of the nuns’ “preoccupation with material assets” and “preoccupation with materialism, wealth, and social status”, and that the women provided “a steady stream of free labour and servitude”. The nuns also received “financial renumeration” for the children of these women.


  • #3710
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Deleted my post as there's a thread about the Tuam Home already on Boards


  • #3711
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    The Northern Ireland Historical Abuse Inquiry has commenced its examination of the crimes of Fr Brendan Smyth. http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0622/709660-brendan-smyth/

    Today, they heard a confession from Smyth to a doctor in 1994 where he claimed the number of his victims could run into the hundreds.


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  • #3712
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Pope Francis is visiting Philadelphia next week and a group of clerical sex abuse victims plan to present him with a petition to remove a Syracuse, N.Y, Bishop from office over his 2011 testimony on child (victim) culpability on agreeing to sex with priests. the bishop Robert Cunningham allegedly testified that a child of seven (7) years is at the age of reason and is therefore culpable in the matter. The victims were from ten (10) years upwards.

    http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/uncucumbered/new_york_bishop_says_victims_of_predatory_priests_also_committed_a_sin?recruiter_id=17


  • #3713
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    The story of one of the girls shipped off from Britain to Australia by the RCC: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34656346
    Upon arrival at Goodwood, all the children's personal mementos - photographs, letters, toys - were taken from them and they were left with just a Bible. Everyone was terrified of the Reverend Mother, even the other nuns, says Pamela. She recalls the big strap the nun had around her waist which her rosaries would hang from.
    "It is what she'd use to beat us - at night she would walk up and down the dormitories and if you so much as twitched in your bed you'd get the strap."
    Sexual abuse was a harsh reality for many of the children under the care of these schemes, including Pamela, who was assaulted while on the voyage over to Australia and while working at an isolated shearing station, aged 15.
    "We were taught never to let a man touch you - and that was all I knew, so I believed I was a sinner and would go to hell for it," she says. When it happened for the first time on the boat, the nuns in Pamela's charge insisted she was just dreaming. "I was terrified and I still go to sleep with my hands guarding between my legs," she says.


  • #3714
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    "[Bishop Daniel Cohalan]’s advice to the order was that their duty, above all else, was to Canon law and their loyalty was to their order." - Bishop Cohalan implored nuns to obfuscate investigations into Bessborough, an attitude that continues to this day. (Irish Examiner)


  • #3715
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    This was probably discussed pages back, but how was Pope John Paul II made a Saint, yet the Legionaries of Christ founder Fr Marcial Maciel carried on his wickedness in safety (sodomising his son, embezzlement etc)? This was in spite of so much evidence and reports. The idea that JP2 saw it in a similar light to the Communist smears against Catholic and Greek Rite Catholics (fabricated accusations of sexual misbehaviour was a standard Communist tactic), doesn't cut it, in my humble opinion.


  • #3716
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    At least 231 members of a choir ran by Georg Ratzinger (brother of Benedict XVI) from 1964-94 were physically (and in some cases sexually) abused, most of whom during Georg's time in charge. http://www.thejournal.ie/regensburg-domspatzen-ratzinger-benedict-choir-child-abuse-scandal-2538826-Jan2016/?utm_source=shortlink


  • #3717
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    At least 231 members of a choir ran by Georg Ratzinger (brother of Benedict XVI) from 1964-94 were physically (and in some cases sexually) abused, most of whom during Georg's time in charge. http://www.thejournal.ie/regensburg-domspatzen-ratzinger-benedict-choir-child-abuse-scandal-2538826-Jan2016/?utm_source=shortlink

    Of course the former pope knew nothing about it and this along with other yet unmentioned stuff had nothing to do with him stepping down as popey


  • #3718
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    They never fail to surprise me. This really is a despicable organisation. I genuinely can't understand why anyone would want to be a part of this disgusting organisation.

    MrP


  • #3719
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    The RCC in the state of New York spent $2.1m over 2007-15 on lobbying against stronger laws on child abuse: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/catholic-church-hired-lobby-firms-block-n-y-kid-rape-laws-article-1.2655010


  • #3720
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    The RCC in the state of New York spent $2.1m over 2007-15 on lobbying against stronger laws on child abuse: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/catholic-church-hired-lobby-firms-block-n-y-kid-rape-laws-article-1.2655010
    Meh. Unsurprised MrP is unsurprised. This is, after all, the organisation that argued in court that a foetus was not human to try to avoid paying out in a medical negligence case. Stay classy RCC.

    MrP


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  • #3721
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    The Catholic Church's attempts at derailing new legislation in Pennsylvania - which would allow sexual abuse survivors to file for civil action until they're 50 (it's 30 at the moment) have been "mafia-like", says one Republican legislator. Catholic Republican legislators say they were "crushed", "angered" and "disappointed" when named and shamed on their local parish bulletins for supporting this legislation and being disinvited from RCC events.


  • #3722
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Business as usual so, sickening, disgusting and twisted business as usual.

    Anything they can do to protect the church, nothings changed at all.


  • #3723
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Not even slightly surprised by this. Business as usual, in all senses of the word.


  • #3724
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    The RCC in the state of New York spent $2.1m over 2007-15 on lobbying against stronger laws on child abuse: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/catholic-church-hired-lobby-firms-block-n-y-kid-rape-laws-article-1.2655010

    Are good, decent people who are putting money into the collection plates every Sunday properly aware of this?


  • #3725
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Are good, decent people who are putting money into the collection plates every Sunday properly aware of this?

    In my experience alot people put blinkers on and pretend they didn't hear of such sickening stuff, sort of the same as the abuse in Ireland.

    The church could really have redeemed itself in Ireland if its followers got out and openly protested about the church's refusal to deal with compensation for victims, UN investigations etc. Instead we hear mostly silence.


  • #3726
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Interesting and good concept on helping the homeless. Maybe I am being a tad sceptical with regard to the Govt and the religious orders, but it has me wondering if this may end up as part of the reparation deal re land in lieu of cash done with the religious orders for their part in the scandals.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/coveney-to-ask-religious-orders-for-housing-land-1.2695336


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  • #3727
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Tony Walsh (aka "The Singing Priest") faces a maximum of two years for raping a boy, as he committed it when it would have only counted as "indecent assault".

    Words fail me.


  • #3728
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Noted it was his defence, Ciaran O'Loughlin SC, who pointed out to the judge that, as the latest complaint was made in 2011, years before the last trial in 2015, it could have been included in the book of evidence and charges at that trial, "concurrent sentences passed then, your honour". It's a wonder he didn't try the "it was deliberate slowness by the prosecution to get an extra trial & extra conviction and sentence" claim. I don't know if the DPP is tied down to using the original legislation against defendants existing at the time of the offence/s or if the current or optional legislaton can be used.

    I'd imagine his choice of rape implement would cause severe upset to his fellow clergy, no matter what faith he belonged to.


  • #3729
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Tony Walsh (aka "The Singing Priest") faces a maximum of two years for raping a boy, as he committed it when it would have only counted as "indecent assault".

    Words fail me.

    Also JP2, well his officials, also did a bit of a go slow on laicising him, but if one recalls that sordid tale of Marcial Maciel, Founder of the Legionaries of Christ, that isn't surprising.


  • #3730
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    You know what,
    I'm actually surprised that a sex abuse victim hasn't tried to murder their abuser at this stage, especially when they encounter such lax sentencing when the issue goes to court.


  • #3731
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    This one did.


    So did this one.
    And this one.
    And this one.

    I'd be surprised if there were any victims who didn't at least entertain the notion to be honest.


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  • #3732
    FluffyAngel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭FluffyAngel


    Cabaal wrote: »
    You know what,
    I'm actually surprised that a sex abuse victim hasn't tried to murder their abuser at this stage, especially when they encounter such lax sentencing when the issue goes to court.

    I'm making inroads on the above,all i need is to work out how to hold a gun/knife while eating ice cream(i want to kill him in cold blood)..

    i have only spotted this thread and will in time input..




    btw,the above is a joke(i don't need ice cream)


  • #3733
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,859 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    FluffyAngel wrote: »
    I'm making inroads on the above,all i need is to work out how to hold a gun/knife while eating ice cream(i want to kill him in cold blood)..

    i have only spotted this thread and will in time input..




    btw,the above is a joke(i don't need ice cream)

    MOD NOTE

    A thread on child abuse really isn't the appropriate place for joke telling.

    It's a serious discussion thread, so please modify any future contributions to reflect that.

    Thanks for your attention.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #3734
    FluffyAngel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭FluffyAngel


    Delirium wrote: »
    MOD NOTE

    A thread on child abuse really isn't the appropriate place for joke telling.

    It's a serious discussion thread, so please modify any future contributions to reflect that.

    Thanks for your attention.

    Thanks Delirium,as a person who was abused i make no apology for using humour as a way of dealing with it..

    please note that i made no reference to other people and their hurt, i use humour to make the journey easier ..

    if i said i want to kill him/them then i could be charged with an offence,humour has always being used as a medium to express..


  • #3735
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    The latest episode of the Irish History Podcast discusses child abuse in Ireland. About 8 minutes & 30 seconds in, they bring up the derailment of a Department of Education survey on sexual abuse by ultra-conservative Catholic activists Christina Bhean Ui Chribin and Una Bhean Ui Mhathuna, as they took out a court order in January 1982 to stop the survey dead in its tracks.

    Some of you may know Ui Chribin for supporting the "mother" responsible for the Roscommon House of Horrors.


  • #3736
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Some of you may know Ui Chribin for supporting the "mother" responsible for the Roscommon House of Horrors.

    Thought I recognised the name,
    The other "gem" has been a figure against progress in Ireland having been a founding member of Mna na hEireann (c. 1972 – late 1970s) and the Irish Housewives Union (c. 1980 – early 1990s) as well as being active with the Council for Family Rights (1980s), Anti-Abortion Campaign (1983), No Divorce Campaign (1996/97), Friends of Youth Defence (1990s) and Coir (2000s).

    More info about the case here https://comeheretome.com/2012/07/29/una-bean-mhic-mhathuna-40-years-of-reactionary-politics/

    What an awful hateful women,


  • #3737
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    The latest episode of the Irish History Podcast discusses child abuse in Ireland. About 8 minutes & 30 seconds in, they bring up the derailment of a Department of Education survey on sexual abuse by ultra-conservative Catholic activists Christina Bhean Ui Chribin and Una Bhean Ui Mhathuna, as they took out a court order in January 1982 to stop the survey dead in its tracks.

    Some of you may know Ui Chribin for supporting the "mother" responsible for the Roscommon House of Horrors.
    It appears from the link obligingly provided by Cabaal over here that they sought a court order to stop the survey, but failed to get it. I don't know, therefore, whether the survey was in fact derailed.

    (Which is not intended as a defence of them, or an excuse for their activities generally.)


  • #3738
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Thought I recognised the name,
    The other "gem" has been a figure against progress in Ireland having been a founding member of Mna na hEireann (c. 1972 – late 1970s) and the Irish Housewives Union (c. 1980 – early 1990s) as well as being active with the Council for Family Rights (1980s), Anti-Abortion Campaign (1983), No Divorce Campaign (1996/97), Friends of Youth Defence (1990s) and Coir (2000s).

    More info about the case here https://comeheretome.com/2012/07/29/una-bean-mhic-mhathuna-40-years-of-reactionary-politics/

    What an awful hateful women,

    Bit surprised she didn't mention the other church i her "We Do Not Want" list, though maybe the "No Divorce" was an elliptical reference.


  • #3739
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Thought I recognised the name,
    The other "gem" has been a figure against progress in Ireland having been a founding member of Mna na hEireann (c. 1972 – late 1970s) and the Irish Housewives Union (c. 1980 – early 1990s) as well as being active with the Council for Family Rights (1980s), Anti-Abortion Campaign (1983), No Divorce Campaign (1996/97), Friends of Youth Defence (1990s) and Coir (2000s).

    More info about the case here https://comeheretome.com/2012/07/29/una-bean-mhic-mhathuna-40-years-of-reactionary-politics/

    What an awful hateful women,

    How extraordinary. What's most amusing is she was a postmaster who went though everyone's mail to infiltrate condoms. How she though as a lay person she could single handedly influence peoples sex lives in her parish , by physically inventing. It's just mind-boggling.

    What this piece of history tells me is one should never underestimate the objectives of the religious zealots. Psychologically , when one has a sense of total righteousness , the only way to proceed is to be hell bent on making sure everyone else agrees with you, whether they want to or not.


  • #3740
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    I recently discovered at interesting little detail about Marcial Maciel, founder of the Legionaries of Christ, pederast and swindler extraordinaire. After his explusion from the Diocesan seminary Veracruz-Jalapa and from four other seminaries, Maciel was ordained after private study under his uncle the bishop of Cuernavaca Francisco María González Arias and was ordained at the age of 24. He formed a little congregation, settling finally on the now infamous name Legionaries of Christ. According to Alejandro Espinosa Alcala, author of El Legionario Maciel, a father of three young boys entrusted to the Legionaries complained that Maciel molested them. Bishop Arias punished Maciel with suspensio a divinis and removed his priestly faculties. There is no record of this penalty even being lifted. Jesuits came to hear of his crimes against novices under the seal of confession, and so sought ways to 'clip his wing.' Given that they could not reveal what they heard in the confessional, Maciel was able brush off the problem as Jesuit jealousy of a new order. How did Rome not hear that a priest seeking the approval of his order (obtained first in 1948 from Pius XII as a diocesan institution and upgraded by Paul VI in 1965 to a congregration of pontifical right)?


  • #3741
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    This seems like a relevant place to post this:
    robindch wrote: »
    Seems that the Vatican is refusing to co-operate with the ongoing Australian commission into child sex abuse and this is causing some within the Aussie government to consider whether the Vatican really needs an Embassy.

    http://www.theherald.com.au/story/4501959/turnbull-government-questioned-over-vatican-ties/


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  • #3742
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    This seems like a relevant place to post this:
    Your concern for the plight and suffering of the abused must be commended PP.


  • #3743
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Your concern for the plight and suffering of the abused must be commended PP.

    Someone has to make up for your deficit.


  • #3744
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Your concern for the plight and suffering of the abused must be commended PP.

    To be fair the lack of Catholic Church members concerned about the plight and suffering sort of shows why it happened in the first place, don't be critical of mother church


  • #3745
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Someone has to make up for your deficit.
    True. You do the political footballing of two men.


  • #3746
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Cabaal wrote: »
    To be fair the lack of Catholic Church members concerned about the plight and suffering sort of shows why it happened in the first place, don't be critical of mother church

    In my mind, turning a blind eye borders on complicity but is all too easy to do where other courses of action involve bravery and risk. Wringing of hands and tut-tutting while doing nothing much else is no doubt the next stage, and thanks to technology this has now been automated so that we can have anonymous rants over the internet instead. Plus ça change.


  • #3747
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    These were the 796 children who died at the sold-called "Bon Secours" Tuam Mother and Baby Home

    http://www.thejournal.ie/list-names-tuam-babies-children-3270019-Mar2017/?utm_source=shortlink


  • #3748
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    The Catholic church provided the logistics and capability for committing horrible cruelty like this. But Irish society provided the will.

    I often see this tragedy framed as an evil clerical organisation committing cruelty against women and kids. In reality, society wielded an evil clerical organisation to commit cruelty against women and kids.


  • #3749
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Morbert wrote: »
    The Catholic church provided the logistics and capability for committing horrible cruelty like this. But Irish society provided the will.

    I often see this tragedy framed as an evil clerical organisation committing cruelty against women and kids. In reality, society wielded an evil clerical organisation to commit cruelty against women and kids.

    Your not allowed to say that though because it doesn't fit into the preferred narrative. People get awfully upset when you try to point out the facts.


  • #3750
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Morbert wrote: »
    The Catholic church provided the logistics and capability for committing horrible cruelty like this. But Irish society provided the will.

    I often see this tragedy framed as an evil clerical organisation committing cruelty against women and kids. In reality, society wielded an evil clerical organisation to commit cruelty against women and kids.

    No Morbert ,the eminience grise behind society was the RCC .


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  • #3751
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    marienbad wrote: »
    No Morbert ,the eminience grise behind society was the RCC .

    Eminience grise?


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