Aer Lingus

dowlingm · 29-03-2006 7:57pm

British Airways has been fully private for a long time. Does anyone on this board think British people feel that it's less the national carrier? Thatcher proved as much when she criticised BA's decision to paint weird patterns on the tailfin instead of the British flag - the last of those fins are pretty much gone now, especially because foreign passengers liked the Britishness of the Chatham design! Does anyone think Ryanair is government owned because it has the harp on the tail?

Aer Lingus doesn't just carry the shamrock because of its ownership, but because of its attachment to Irish people. It's a brand which has a financial value. Willie Walsh got rid of the shamrock on several 737s to promote the dot com logo and the manner of his withdrawal from European cargo angered emigrants bringing dead relations home and the exporters who got little notice of the action.

As for the LHR slots - many LHR passengers are merely connecting to onward services. Many of these destinations in Europe are now directly reached from Dublin and the longhaul destinations will hopefully follow with the new Dubai and Qatar services hopefully being the first of many. Prioritising LHR arguably helps British Airways and Qantas more than it helps Aer Lingus, and as the withdrawal from Gatwick showed.

If EI expands post-stopover to Toronto, then I wouldn't have to come home via Heathrow six months of the year - Air Transat have already said they won't take up scheduled rights to Dublin while the stopover is there because they can't make money with the Shannon stop. However, they need money to buy new longhaul aircraft for north America, South Africa and the far east but if the government puts the money in there is likely to be an objection to the European commission.

Also - the new EU-US agreement will allow any European airline to serve the US from Dublin so EI's traffic rights won't be exclusive then.

For EoinS and MarkPB - at the top of the aerlingus website is a country box - change it to Hungary and Budapest goes to the top of the list

FlutterinBantam · 29-03-2006 8:00pm

A few facts if I may..

1.. All redundancies in Aer Lingus were totally voluntary.....

2.. Willie Walsh did not save Aer Lingus....He did change things though an bring a more commercial/realistic economic strategy to the company.

3. If a route will pay ..Aer lingus will fly it...not as in previous years ..stick to loss making routes ad infinitum.

4..Most of the major changes in work practices have yet to come..... the days when Ryanair baggage handlers dispute grounds all airlines EXCEPT Ryanair are hopefully coming to a close.

5.. Selling Heathrow slots would be like buying a racehorse and cutting off its legs

6.. With the ticket prices on offer at the moment ,unit costs must be cut ..thats the problem..otherwise alternate sources of income must be sought...eg baggage charges...onboard sales....excess baggage... change fees.There will also be a marked deterioration in after sales service... Don't expect to speak to a "live one" in Aer Lingus anytime soon

walshb · 29-03-2006 8:15pm

I do not claim to be an expert on the issue but is Aer Lingus currently a success as regards it making a profit?. From what I've been reading, it is operating at a profit, if so why sell it so a certain group of people can get seriously wealthy.

FlutterinBantam · 29-03-2006 8:29pm

Simple answer ... not making enough to fund capital expenditure

ballooba · 29-03-2006 8:38pm

parsi wrote:

I wonder where would it be if it was sold to DHL ? Right now its subsumed back into An Post and we can still get Courier delivery from our local PO. If it was with DHL how would it have worked out ? It's grand for DHL in Germany - Deutsche Post effectively merged DHLs low end back into itself but over here....

We have a crappy parcel service that takes days. And we're a few hundred million lighter than we would have been. Any business I know uses couriers now instead of SDS because An Post are so bad and just as expensive.

ballooba · 29-03-2006 8:45pm

GOAT_Ali wrote:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=13831

A bunch of suits trying to make a killing off our Airline. Whatever it takes, make this airline a success.....But keep it to the people and for the people.

GOAT_Ali wrote:

Aer Lingus is and always will be a huge symbol for this country and I for one am extremely proud of it. Everytime I see that shamrock fly, I get goozebumps....It really is something to be proud of, your own national airline, something which for any strong country is essential. The Government and those at Aer Lingus should pull out all the stops to ensure it runs efficiently and to ensure that it does not become the property of the private sector who after they make their money and get fed up, can flog it off to the highest bidder, French or the British or the Americans or the German etc.
That's what I see possibly happening if the private sector take over. No country should sell off the crown jewels, so to speak and Aer Lingus to me is every bit as important a symblol to this country as the GAA or Waterford crystal. I wonder would anyone object to say Sky TV buying the GAA off us?

Bottom line is that the company belongs to every citizen of this country no one group or no bunch of suits should be given the authority to buy it and do whatever the hell they feel like with it.

GOAT_Ali wrote:

If this is not something worth fighting for and saving I don't know what is.
Have we nothing on this Island that is not for sale?, sad state of affairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Aerlingus.a320-214.ei-cva.750pix.jpg

This is your whole contribution to the thread you have started. You don't appear to have much of an argument except nostalgia and a fear of change. Is that much of your national identity tied up in n airline that you would be prepared to subsidise it indefinitely? If Aer lingus was sold overnight would you wake up in the morning and say "I don't even know who I am anymore".

GOAT_Ali · 29-03-2006 10:54pm

Well mate, I'm not an expert on the subject the same way I'm no expert on say the GAA or Waterford crystal, but it doesn't take a genius to figure that Aer Lingus is a huge symbol to Ireland, a fantastic airline, a currently profitable airline and surely you do not find it strange that an Irishman would be extremely proud of it and would be disgusted at the thoughts of it going into foreign ownership now do you. I started the thread to hear the views, I didn't necessarily want every single little detail of Aer Lingus' history. Also does anyone else consider the Airline to be a national treasure and the selling of National treasures will affect and annoy people....

Surely with all the 'brains' on this island, with all the money they keep telling us we have and the national pride, (though diminishing it seems) we can make Aer Lingus even better than it currently is, without allowing greedy businessmen in to make huge amounts of money. It's our Airline and should stay so....

GOAT_Ali · 29-03-2006 10:57pm

I'll ask you a question....if you woke up tomorrow and realised it was not sold, would you be pissed off at this and worried that maybe your airline ticket was going to cost you a couple of Euro extra

The answer to your question is I would be disgusted and annoyed to see this airline sold from the people and if being patriotic and passionate about Ireland's assets is wrong, I don't wanna be right

FlutterinBantam · 29-03-2006 11:20pm

Ireland had a semi-state shipping company years ago..... it was sold off... closed.... died.... became defunct.. or whatever......Dublin Port is now full of state of the art ferries.... the sky didn't fall...the sun didn't stop shinin. ....

DublinWriter · 29-03-2006 11:24pm

walshb wrote:

Willie Walsh was an extremely highly paid man for the job he did in Aer Lingus, he didn't get what he wanted which was the sale of the airline and he disappeared to take up the most prestigious job in the Airline world. If that doesn't show where his loyalties lie, I don't know what does. Why didn't he stay and work hard for Aer Lingus and keep up this good work, no he wanted the airline for himself and a bunch of his cronies to make as much money as possible and then he could sell it to who the hell he liked....

If it wasn't for Willie Walsh there would be no Aer Lingus today. End of story.

We begrudge talented and financially successful people in this country, but that's another thread.

People conviently forgot what a financial basket case the company was up to 2001. At one stage Aer Lingus was only a couple of months away from complete financial collapse.

It's a business existing in the economic reality of today, whether you, me or anyone else likes it. And if it wants to be viable in the world of today then it has to play by todays rules.

Treat Aer Lingus for what it is. It's a business, not some castle down in Kerry or some viking relic in a museum.

BendiBus · 30-03-2006 12:27am

GOAT_Ali wrote:

I'm no expert on say the GAA or Waterford crystal

That's the second time you've mentioned Waterford Crystal. Waterford Crystal is a PLC owned by shareholders from all over the world. Just like Aer Lingus wants to be. But Aer Lingus is in much better shape.

dowlingm · 30-03-2006 4:33am

One of the good things about EI going public will be the ability of their people to speak more freely about their commercial ops and how the dead hand of Aer Rianta (who have only just got around to building a transfer facility for god's sake) the DoT and the Shannon lobby have hampered their efforts to expand in the face of Ryanair who have no restrictions because their market (Europe) is fully deregulated.

Right now, DM has to say the right things because his masters are political appointees.

ballooba · 30-03-2006 12:07pm

GOAT_Ali wrote:

...a fantastic airline, a currently profitable airline and surely you do not find it strange that an Irishman would be extremely proud of it and would be disgusted at the thoughts of it going into foreign ownership now do you.

Fantastic airline? When's the last time you flew with them? What makes them so fantastic.

Also who says it has to go into foreign ownership. If it's so great and so important to our national identity then why wouldn't an Irish group buy it.

GOAT_Ali wrote:

Also does anyone else consider the Airline to be a national treasure and the selling of National treasures will affect and annoy people....

I don't it's a business. You can't preserve it in a glass case like 'national treasure'. It has to adapt and change to compete and survive. It's an expensive toy for a governement to have.

GOAT_Ali wrote:

Surely with all the 'brains' on this island, with all the money they keep telling us we have and the national pride, (though diminishing it seems) we can make Aer Lingus even better than it currently is, without allowing greedy businessmen in to make huge amounts of money. It's our Airline and should stay so....

Businessmen run businesses. Hence the use of the word 'business'. Governments run nations.

ishmael whale · 30-03-2006 2:22pm

Stimpyone wrote:

As per my previous mail. If the flotation goes ahead as the government recommendations then it would have a controlling factor of 25%. Therefore nothing could be sold without its approval thus avoiding asset stripping including landing rights.

I'm not sure its that pat. If someone owns 75% of Aer Lingus and wants to use the slots for a more profitable route, surely they would be able to complain to the European Commission if the Irish Government tried to prevent them on national interest grounds.

Stimpyone · 30-03-2006 2:39pm

ishmael whale wrote:

I'm not sure its that pat. If someone owns 75% of Aer Lingus and wants to use the slots for a more profitable route, surely they would be able to complain to the European Commission if the Irish Government tried to prevent them on national interest grounds.

Eh, what would it have to do with the european commision?. The government would simply be a majorty stake holder in a floated company.

They could object to anything for whatever reason, it's their prerogative.

dowlingm · 30-03-2006 3:07pm

Spain has had to commit to divesting itself of "golden shares" (which allow control government voting strength doesn't provide) because of EU pressure. This includes Iberia.

walshb · 30-03-2006 3:18pm

Willie bloody Walsh my arse, he's no Bill Gates or Rockefeller. He was paid to do a job, he did it and was paid handsomely but to make out he was the airlines saviour is stretchingit a bit. The moment he didn't get his way he ran, so there's his loyaly and so called love for the airline. The people of Aer Lingus saved the airline and the men in suits also played their part as we all know leadership is essential for any business, but a guy who runs the first time he gets refused something is not the type of guy I'd trust to run a national airline, he's a damn liability. Why the urgent necessity to buy the airline, it's not as if he was going to be on the streets and short of cash, he had a very good job, all the perks and benefits and prestige and still he was not satisfied. That airline is part of our identity and cannot be sold, business is business I know, but sometimes pride and patriotism come first. The selling of it is nowhere near essential. The airline is profitable, has class and can continue to do so staying Irish.

I do happen to believe that certain things in a countries society should always remain controlled by that country and Ireland being a relatively small country should at least be able to say that it has got its own Airline. I've no problem whatsoever with new airlines being set up by private enterprise here, making the market more competitive, but as a safety net, keep something that the people can never lose. I can't think of a better candidate than one's own national airline

GOAT_Ali · 30-03-2006 3:31pm

Balooba, lets say it is sold and sold to an Irish consortium, so what???
What is to stop this crowd from stripping it and selling it to whoever they want. The answer is nothing could stop them and where the hell does that leave Aer Lingus, one of Ireland's greatest discoveries.....Surely I'm not in the minority in being shocked at the possibility of this happening?

I just wouldn't be too happy to suddenly realise that Aer Lingus which has dominated our skies for over 50 yrs is now no longer Irish, no longer carries the shamrock and has no more links or ties to this country, all for MAYBE slightly cheaper flights, little more leg room, extra free drinks or whatever so called privatisation brings???!!!

ballooba · 30-03-2006 3:56pm

How is Aer Lingus one of our greatest discoveries? It's a company, it was formed, not discovered. You seem to have this strange obsession with comparing it to a precious stone or metal (or 'treasure'). Indeed precious stones and metals are discovered, airlines are not.

Because the government will keep having top subsidise it. i.e. My taxes will have to keep subsidising semi-state workers because they don't have to make a profit.

What makes you think the businessmen are any more greedy than the unions? All they want is an ESOT. The same as they got in Eircom and they seek in ESB.

GOAT_Ali · 30-03-2006 7:14pm

Look Balooba, obviously we'll never agree on this one. You give me the impression that really nothing is sacred or nothing should be considered truly Irish and basically anything is for sale in your eyes. Wheteher it's sold or not it is without question a true symbol of this country, no matter what spin you or any greedy businessmen put on it, company, profits, expansion, competitive, diversify etc etc. I'm not a Union lover and maybe the people in Aer Lingus have been riding the system, but that does not give anyone the right to use this as an excuse to sell this airline, fix it and move on, though it's doing pretty well at the moment regardless. I also do not discurage competition and if it takes other airlines to move here and make Aer Lingus fight for every fare, so be it as long as we can keep the airline thoroughly Irish. What's the harm in that??

FlutterinBantam · 30-03-2006 7:39pm

No harm at all ..as long as its privatised and run as a proper commercial company ..not as safe nest for wasters and whingers who are afraid of a hard days work.

walshb · 30-03-2006 8:21pm

And why does it have to be sold in order to run properly. This is what I do not get, it's running fairly OK now. Why fix something if it's not broken?. Those so called whingers have the company as it is now which is profitable and to say they are all the same is very wrong. A lot of those workers are there for two reasons, to make money and for the love of the job. In every company, private or not you will get dossers and guys who are on power trips, including the Willie Walshs'. Bottom line is that is not necessary to sell the company to make it a success, just shake it up and improvise.

DublinWriter · 30-03-2006 8:59pm

walshb wrote:

Bottom line is that is not necessary to sell the company to make it a success, just shake it up and improvise.

No, the bottom line is that it needs €500million capital investment to replace it's transatlantic fleet.

Now given the A&E crises, do you think any government will seriously spend that kind of money on aeroplanes?

Shake it up and improvise? It's a major business, not a jazzercise routine.

Willie Walsh already 'shook-it-up' and leaned off all the fat, including selling off the paintings on the walls in HQ offices.

Remember, if it wasn't for Willie Walsh, you wouldn't have any big green planes to get all tingly about today.

I'm all for privatising the company, but it mustn't allowed to be asset-stripped by VC's as Eircom was.

walshb · 30-03-2006 9:48pm

Don't use the health crisis as a reason, money is no issue as regards that problem. I wonder how poor old Aer Lingus coped before Willie. Isn't he amazing, so much so, where is he now I ask. He's a businessman whose sole purpose is to make money and lots of it, not for us the customers, but for himself. You hardly think that no money should be given to Aer Lingus, being in Government control means it is entitled to Government money as are all areas in this country. Aer Lingus needs money just like any other semi state.
The company as far as I'm concerned is just as much entitled to it as the health department, education department etc etc. And it's a damn sight more entitled to it than the businessmen who want to take it over.

It was nice debating with you guys, but I'll leave it. Everyone has their beliefs and views. I guess I just am a little prouder of its beginnings and its status on this island and feel it should continue to be the property of this country, no excuses.

GOAT_Ali · 30-03-2006 9:53pm

DublinWriter wrote:

I'm all for privatising the company, but it mustn't allowed to be asset-stripped by VC's as Eircom was.

And what law can prevent this type of scenario from happening?, that's my whole point as regards its potential sale. It can be destroyed by this behavior

DublinWriter · 30-03-2006 10:22pm

walshb wrote:

I wonder how poor old Aer Lingus coped before Willie.

Where the f*ck were you in 2000/2001 when Aer Lingus was a couple of months away from total bankruptcy? It was all over the 6.1 news for a week!

Do you know *anything* about what happened to Sabena?

Isn't he amazing, so much so, where is he now I ask. He's a businessman whose sole purpose is to make money and lots of it

Where is he now? Chairman of one the biggest and most prestigious airlines in the world, that's where. Successfull businessmen make jobs. End of story.

If you believe that nationalised industry still works in the 21st century, then move to France.

ballooba · 30-03-2006 10:23pm

GOAT_Ali wrote:

Look Balooba, obviously we'll never agree on this one. You give me the impression that really nothing is sacred or nothing should be considered truly Irish and basically anything is for sale in your eyes.

Complete horsesh:t. Plenty of things are sacred The Dail, The GPO (building, not An Post itself), Dublin Castle, Newgrange, The Burren, The Ardagh Chalice, The Book of Kells, Christchurch Cathedral, Asgard I, Kilmainham Gaol.

Notice something about the above? Not one of them is a business.

Would you be so nostalgic about ESB if it was being privatised? No? Maybe because it's not as 'glamorous' in your eyes as Aer Lingus.

ishmael whale · 30-03-2006 10:28pm

Stimpyone wrote:

Eh, what would it have to do with the european commision?. The government would simply be a majorty stake holder in a floated company.

They could object to anything for whatever reason, it's their prerogative.

If you look at the link below you’ll see several cases where the Commission has been successful in getting the European Court to strike out ‘golden share’ arrangements, in situations which in principle were much the same as the Aer Lingus slots issue.

Remember you are not talking about the State being a majority shareholder. As you say yourself, the situation is more likely to be the State maintaining a minority holder with the hope of being able to impose conditions on the holders of the majority stake. That formula has been tried elsewhere, and found incompatable with EU law.

I don’t hold with any of the misty-eyed nonsense about Aer Lingus and those lovely adverts with Gabriel’s Oboe as the background music. But I dare say someone could find a better use for the Heathrow slots than flying little planeloads of Paddies back and forth. The only reason for keeping Aer Lingus in public ownership is to protect the slots, and that might be enough of a reason.

However, what will swing the issue in the end will be the interplay of union pressure and the forthcoming election on the one hand and the political difficulty of investing money in a State airline for reasons few can relate to on the other. I don’t think our strategic national interest in the slots will feature much in anyone’s thinking, and I expect the Government would be happy to spin that this can be looked after with a golden share arrangement even if they know it would not stick if challenged.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/capital/framework/court_en.htm

http://lawzone.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=112482&d=204&h=252&f=209
Germany must give up 'golden share' in VW, says European Commission
The difference of opinion between the European Commission and Germany over the lawfulness of the State's golden share in car manufacturer Volkswagen culminated today when the Commission announced that it was taking the matter to the European Court of Justice……..

Armed with the findings of the Court in earlier cases involving golden shares held by France in the oil company Elf, by Belgium in gas company Distrigaz, and by Portugal in certain energy and telecom companies, the Commission has now stepped up the pressure on Germany. The Court recognised that golden shares could be valid in certain circumstances, such as the State's security, but on the back of these earlier judgments, it is now difficult to imagine that Germany's arguments in relation to VW will stand before the ECJ. Germany's case will not be helped either by the UK's recent announcement that it will dispose of its golden share in the airport services operator BAA after a Court ruling in May 2003.

BendiBus · 30-03-2006 10:43pm

ishmael whale wrote:

The only reason for keeping Aer Lingus in public ownership is to protect the slots, and that might be enough of a reason

I think it's already been said, but the value of the Heathrow slots is becoming less and less important as Aer Lingus develops it's own route network and stops being a shuttle service feeding BA long haul. If they can be sold to fund a long haul fleet then that's great. It will save us all from having to transit through the hell that is Heathrow. And we can all take pride in seeing the shamrock in Dubai, Hong Kong, Sydney and Capetown

If I want to go to London I'll go to Gatwick (which Aer Lingus could get back into if it wants)

ishmael whale · 31-03-2006 1:05pm

I think your point is possibly right – seeing access to Heathrow as crucial could just be a legacy of old ways of thinking. And certainly I’ve no problem in principle with the sale of Aer Lingus.

But I think we do need to be clear that selling Aer Lingus means it will be a fully commercial operation. Golden shares will not enable the State to maintain any meaningful control – which may not necessarily be a bad thing. However, we do need to be clear that if their new owners decide Heathrow – Dubai is a more profitable route than Heathrow – Dublin, then that’s what they’ll do.

Aer Lingus

Comments