News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

pixbyjohn · 01-07-2010 11:11pm

Blanchflower, do you want to see the harbour works being a success ?
I want to see it being successful and I believe it will be.

d'Oracle · 02-07-2010 12:17am

Blanchflower wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0701/1224273706406.html

Quoting an opinion piece from a paper as proof.
Thats hilarious.
If I believed the crap they put up there then John Waters would have convinced me that social workers are out to get me for the good of womankind.

But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and restate the question.
Have you any valid proof that the marina development is insolvent?

darter · 02-07-2010 12:51am

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Blanchflower, do you want to see the harbour works being a success ?
I want to see it being successful and I believe it will be.

Everybody (I think) WANTS the harbour to be a success, even those who were opposed (like me) now want it to be a success.

What one BELIEVES in is a personal issue.

However, neither wants nor beliefs will ensure success.

What is most frustrating is the total lack of information, from the Council and from Sispar. If we KNEW, rather than had to keep guessing, what the near-future plans are, then we would either relax and be comforted or rise up and take action. As it is, we are in limbo.

We are like mushrooms, as in kept in the dark, but even mushrooms are fed something... We're not even being given sh*t...

Alan_P · 02-07-2010 9:25am

d'Oracle wrote: »

Quoting an opinion piece from a paper as proof.
Thats hilarious.
If I believed the crap they put up there then John Waters would have convinced me that social workers are out to get me for the good of womankind.

But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and restate the question.
Have you any valid proof that the marina development is insolvent?

What exactly are you asking for proof of ? Is it

A. That the Irish residential property has suffered an extreme slump since the business model for this marina was developed ?

B. That the marina is dependent for it's viability on the residential elements selling at a certain price ?

C. That the marina promoters said that the residential element was the absolute minimum needed to make the project viable ?

Point A is trivially provable from available online sources, points B and C would probably need pay for view access to newspaper online archives.

And of course it depends on what would constitute proof in your eyes. The IT article already cited has been dismissed as an "opinion piece", which it wasn't :- it was an analysis piece. And the relevant sentences from it were simple recorded,reported facts about the Irish housing market.

Even in the IT's opinion columns, let alone analysis pieces, facts are sacred :- if John Waters (whom I agree is a complete idiot) says the capital of Slovakia is Prague, a correction will be issued.

And by the way I'm not saying it's insolvent, I'm seeing it's not viable, and inevitably loss making. It can be loss making and solvent, if Sisk are willing to put the money in to finish it and just absorb the loss. But that would be intensely unlikely behaviour for a commercial organization.

Fiachra2 · 02-07-2010 10:06am

d'Oracle wrote: »

Quoting an opinion piece from a paper as proof.
Thats hilarious.
If I believed the crap they put up there then John Waters would have convinced me that social workers are out to get me for the good of womankind.

But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and restate the question.
Have you any valid proof that the marina development is insolvent?

Can I sugest a few points before this goes completly off track. (An bear in mind that we agreed to try and keep opinion out of this)

Most if not all economic commentators accept that the housing market is down 50%

Irrespective of what SIPAR or anyone says it is very likely therefore that this is now a loss making project. Thats business. Im sure its not the first project SISK have lost money on nor the last.

SISK have committed to finishing the harbour walls (not the marina or any other elements)and show every indication that they will do this. Presumably they have loan finance in place to complete the project or are funding it from their own resources. (I think their profits were 150M in 2008)

What happens after they finish the harbour is a lot less clear but at present speculation is not much use. One local politician is pressurising them to ensure that the hoardings are removed irrespective of what happens and hopefully eventually the other local politicians will follow suit.

Lets try and keep it to facts as much as possible.

pixbyjohn · 02-07-2010 10:07am

I wish to thank everyone who has a view on the harbour works for their news and views posted. I hope that I have not annoyed or caused any upset to anyone by airing my views. I will not be commenting further on the harbour works but occasionally I will post photos of the harbour in this forum.
Regards , John

d'Oracle · 02-07-2010 11:14am

Alan_P wrote: »

Even in the IT's opinion columns, let alone analysis pieces, facts are sacred :- if John Waters (whom I agree is a complete idiot) says the capital of Slovakia is Prague, a correction will be issued.

I know, from personal experience that this is not true.
But this is not the place to go into it. It was a throw away comment to illustrate how if you make a statement and are asked to prove it, opinion pieces do not stand up. This thread is not about the Irish Times.

And analysis is the same as Opinion. Its the journalists interpretation of the facts and certainly not adequate as proof in this instance.

Alan_P wrote: »

And by the way I'm not saying it's insolvent, I'm seeing it's not viable, and inevitably loss making. It can be loss making and solvent, if Sisk are willing to put the money in to finish it and just absorb the loss. But that would be intensely unlikely behaviour for a commercial organization.

Nobody but Sisk can declare this a lossmaking project.
This is purely speculation. Regardless of the state the housing market is in, nobody here has even the slightest idea what state the project is in.

You can trumpet on about the state of the economy all you want, but the remark made was that the project is Insolvent. All you are doing is dragging the thread off topic.

Tabnabs · 02-07-2010 4:11pm

pixbyjohn wrote: »

I wish to thank everyone who has a view on the harbour works for their news and views posted. I hope that I have not annoyed or caused any upset to anyone by airing my views. I will not be commenting further on the harbour works but occasionally I will post photos of the harbour in this forum.
Regards , John

Regrettable but very understandable, I for one would greatly appreciate the updated development photos.

LEIN · 02-07-2010 8:59pm

darter wrote: »

I ask that all of you who want to discuss anything other than "News and views on Greystones harbour and marina" do it in a separate thread. That way perhaps we can avoid the thread being closed whilst there are still very active participants providing useful information to the community...

darter

May i just remind everyone posting on this subject of the original post?

Please keep it to the point as we really would prefer to keep this one open.

Thanks.

Blanchflower · 03-07-2010 9:49am

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Blanchflower, do you want to see the harbour works being a success ?
I want to see it being successful and I believe it will be.

Of course I want the development to be completed. However I fear that the developer is trying to escape its contractual obligations in an attempt to mitigate their losses. For the sake of the people of Greystones the county councillors must not let them off their contractual hook.

pixbyjohn · 07-07-2010 1:43pm

pixbyjohn · 07-07-2010 1:44pm

pixbyjohn · 07-07-2010 1:47pm

d'Oracle · 08-07-2010 2:00pm

Its starting to look like something.:)

ciaran67 · 09-07-2010 8:13am

Apparently Wicklow Council has been consulting Paul the Octopus on what to do next. Cowan was asked for a comment... he just said bit of butter, salt and pepper.

kramxw · 13-07-2010 3:13pm

Noticing all the boat trailers lined up in one of pixbyjohns photos, is the slipway currently open to public for launching/recovering boats?

pixbyjohn · 13-07-2010 3:41pm

kramxw wrote: »

Noticing all the boat trailers lined up in one of pixbyjohns photos, is the slipway currently open to public for launching/recovering boats?

Yes it is , at certain times.

kramxw · 13-07-2010 3:54pm

Any idea where I can find out the times?

pixbyjohn · 13-07-2010 6:50pm

kramxw wrote: »

Any idea where I can find out the times?

PM sent

Blanchflower · 13-07-2010 8:03pm

ciaran67 wrote: »

Apparently Wicklow Council has been consulting Paul the Octopus on what to do next. Cowan was asked for a comment... he just said bit of butter, salt and pepper.

Perhaps Paul the Octopus will take up residence in the harbour and predict when it will be finished!

ciaran67 · 14-07-2010 7:41am

Blanchflower wrote: »

Perhaps Paul the Octopus will take up residence in the harbour and predict when it will be finished!

Hes been retired. Usually a good thing for humans, Octopus, not so much.

dr ro · 14-07-2010 9:50am

ciaran67 wrote: »

Hes been retired. Usually a good thing for humans, Octopus, not so much.

octopus? octopi? octopuses? who knows

ciaran67 · 14-07-2010 10:19am

dr ro wrote: »

octopus? octopi? octopuses? who knows

prefer it on a pizza rather than a pie.

Alun · 14-07-2010 4:09pm

dr ro wrote: »

octopus? octopi? octopuses? who knows

It's a word of Greek, not Latin, origin, so strictly speaking it should be octopodes although that is seen as being a bit pedantic. Octopuses is the most generally accepted form. Octopi is just 'wrong'.

Charlie-Bravo · 14-07-2010 10:52pm

ciaran67 wrote: »

prefer it on a pizza rather than a pie.

Alun wrote: »

...Octopi is just 'wrong'.

Classic, this is why boards were invented! I had a giggle with that one. Thanks guys.

pixbyjohn · 21-08-2010 9:44pm

D13BC7B8E3F94D109ED5D150AFE07EB9-0000315917-0001869602-00800L-7D3A245E2FE6488682CAD076D06271DE.jpg

Bigger size here > http://pix.ie/pixbyjohn/1869602/size/1600

pixbyjohn · 21-08-2010 10:03pm

pixbyjohn · 21-08-2010 10:12pm

73B2B3AA32F34827ABD0CBC223CDF8CF-0000315917-0001869778-00800L-54208932AB6F4017A94E74B731532C33.jpg

View larger here > http://pix.ie/pixbyjohn/1869778/size/1600

pixbyjohn · 22-08-2010 1:40pm

Harbour_HDR2 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

InTheTrees · 24-08-2010 6:38pm

Nice work with the panorama shots pixby.

Blandpebbles · 24-08-2010 8:51pm

Good to see you getting into HDR

The Bishop Basher · 25-08-2010 8:50am

Great pics. Looks like it's slowly starting to take a bit of shape.

pixbyjohn · 11-09-2010 11:04pm

DSC_9580 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

pixbyjohn · 11-09-2010 11:36pm

Greystones September 2010 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

Fiachra2 · 29-09-2010 9:36am

I understand that Greystones Town council has been advised that the harbour project is now in NAMA and, contrary to the impression given recently, further progress is dependendent on funding being made available by NAMA.

I will post again when I get mopre details.

Langerland · 29-09-2010 11:27am

This is a worrying (if not unsurprising) development - who or what's the source of this news?

Tabnabs · 29-09-2010 12:43pm

Fiachra2 wrote: »

I understand that Greystones Town council has been advised that the harbour project is now in NAMA and, contrary to the impression given recently, further progress is dependendent on funding being made available by NAMA.

I will post again when I get mopre details.

More detail here

Tuesday nights Greystones Town Council meeting was informed by developer Sispar that the major work on the seawalls would be complete at the end of November 2010.

Following this, construction of the Health Centre, public square and Community buildings for the Sea Scouts, Rowers, Anglers, Divers and Sailors will start in January and should be complete in December 2011.

The hoardings which have blocked the view of the harbour will be taken down as these works are completed in 2011.

Local councillor Derek Mitchell (and a Ruffian keelboat champion) told Afloat.ie: "I welcome this as Greystones had been trying to get the harbour rebuilt for over a hundred years and this will create the best Community Harbour in Ireland".

Councillor Mitchell adds "The developer has applied to change some of the housing and add 34 houses to the North. Wicklow County Council is to vote on this in December. These houses may not be built yet, depending on the housing market, but access will be provided across the site to the North Beach and the new swimming beach there"

"The meeting was also told that the loan would be going in to NAMA, as all loans will, however this is not expected to make any difference to the project", he added.

Councillors asked for more Community tours so that people could see what has been achieved.

source

danjo · 29-09-2010 1:01pm

So what exactly is Councillor Mitchell welcoming?
the delay in completion
the move to NAMA
the possibility that it might get NAMA approval for completion
or that the hoardings might come down in 2012?

And he has been waiting 100 years? Well I suppose in that context it is on schedule.

What rubbish!

Blandpebbles · 29-09-2010 3:08pm

Derek lives in Mitchell world, a place where words such as 'welcoming', 'talking', 'pushing', 'calling for' equate to actually doing something.

This joker needs to be booted rapido!

InTheTrees · 29-09-2010 7:09pm

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Greystones September 2010 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

Nice. On September 12th I flew into Dublin and had a perfect view of the marina from the aeroplane.

Blanchflower · 29-09-2010 11:05pm

Fiachra2 wrote: »

I understand that Greystones Town council has been advised that the harbour project is now in NAMA and, contrary to the impression given recently, further progress is dependendent on funding being made available by NAMA.

I will post again when I get mopre details.

NAMA will not complete this white elephant of a development and they will certainly not build anything more than is necessary. The development even at the height of the property bubble did not make economic sence. And now it is certainly not a going concern. I wonder what type of haircut did it take on the transfer to NAMA?

Perhaps the sailing club will put in a cheeky offer to take it off their hands.

Jimjay · 30-09-2010 5:18pm

Blanchflower wrote: »

NAMA will not complete this white elephant of a development and they will certainly not build anything more than is necessary. The development even at the height of the property bubble did not make economic sence. And now it is certainly not a going concern. I wonder what type of haircut did it take on the transfer to NAMA?

Perhaps the sailing club will put in a cheeky offer to take it off their hands.

Thats very odd. A councillor, on the same day this post was written, wrote on his website that they have been given info from sispar that the harbour area and club facilities will be complete 2011 and the hourdings will be down by end of 2011.

http://www.derekmitchell.ie/?p=519

Fiachra2 · 01-10-2010 8:38am

Both Councillor Mitchell and Jones have stated that the project moving to NAMA has no effect. This would appear to be a simple and somewhat desperate denial of reality.

At the meeting on Tueday night Cllr Fortune made the point that no-one in the room could predict what would now happen. His assertion, according to himslf, went unchallenged by the other councillors, WCC staff and SISPAR representatives.

The problem that this approach by Jones and Mitchell presents is that it impedes action to rescue the situation. Tom Fortune intends to try an get working on contingency plans to see if we can get the hoardings removed and some landscaping done if NAMA refuse funding. (which presumably can be taken as a near certainty)However if other councillors are denying that there is a problem Toms task is made rather more difficult.

danjo · 01-10-2010 8:56am

NAMA will not fund the development because there are no prospects of a return in the short term.

The request for planning permission for additional housing units appears to me as a cynical exercise to increase the book value before entering NAMA.

All efforts should now be channelled into a tidy up and the removal of the hoarding.

Blandpebbles · 01-10-2010 1:59pm

Tom Fortune intends to try an get working on contingency plans to see if

Typical flim flam from politicians to ensure they can put something in their newsletters.

No one is steering the ship, in fact the ships mast has fallen off, the anchor is lost and the crew have all been drinking the sea water.

recedite · 01-10-2010 5:58pm

According to Nama, in general;

Nama wrote:

Nama will make decisions about the completion or otherwise of projects based on a commercial rationale. These decisions will be taken by the board of the executive depending on the scale of the investment that may be required. The key concern is whether the investment will increase the overall return to the taxpayer. Nama will procure the services of planning specialists as required. Small amounts have been disbursed for the completion of specific projects. Nama is currently in the process of reviewing debtor business plans.

In other words they are not going to start building clubhouses to give away. If they did, it would be a scandal for the Irish taxpayer, who as we know, is having to borrow the money abroad at over 6% interest rates.

Any money they spend will be to complete and sell off other unfinished housing units quickly, the type which are likely to become worthless otherwise due to vandalism and not being fully weather-tight.

These Greystones councillors are like ostriches, they want to pretend everything is OK and if they keep saying that, then they will buy some time for themselves. At this stage they are mainly concerned with how they are going to survive the next elections.

Blanchflower · 01-10-2010 10:52pm

recedite wrote: »

According to Nama, in general;

In other words they are not going to start building clubhouses to give away. If they did, it would be a scandal for the Irish taxpayer, who as we know, is having to borrow the money abroad at over 6% interest rates.

Any money they spend will be to complete and sell off other unfinished housing units quickly, the type which are likely to become worthless otherwise due to vandalism and not being fully weather-tight.

These Greystones councillors are like ostriches, they want to pretend everything is OK and if they keep saying that, then they will buy some time for themselves. At this stage they are mainly concerned with how they are going to survive the next elections.

Points well made. NAMA will not spend (waste) scarce capital on white elephant madcap schemes which should never have started in the first place. My guess is that the haircut on this disaster is almost 100%.

Langerland · 05-10-2010 9:31am

harbour, marina, harbour, marina, council, Sispar, harbour, council, marina, Sispar........They've all made a right pigs ar$e of this whole thing like the banks, Gov & developers have made of the country!!

Can we all chip in and just drop one massive bomb on the thing and rid ourselves of it!? I'm sick of it at this stage....:)

darter · 05-10-2010 10:15am

Langerland wrote: »

Can we all chip in and just drop one massive bomb on the thing and rid ourselves of it!? I'm sick of it at this stage....:)

If you're sick of it now, what are you going to be like in 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, ...., when it's STILL going on...

Blandpebbles · 05-10-2010 10:28am

Why can't we just all come together as a town and fix it up?

I have some 2x4 and white paint left over from a shed build, that should get us started... come on folks where is your town spirit.

News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

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