Those Ads...

iguana · 11-07-2012 3:22pm

Sharrow wrote: »

Tomorrow evening (July 11th) there's a protest outside Leinster House against those awful Youth Defence ads, starting at 6.30pm.

Will try my best to make it this evening. I'm a bit nervous as I'm 5 months pregnant and I have experience of YD groups getting violent when people openly opposing them but I've enlisted my husband as 'bodyguard' so should be ok. It's so screwed up that a pregnant woman feels so safety cautious when it comes to dealing with pro-lifers but YD stink of hypocrisy and I would not trust the majority of them to actually give a damn about the life of any unborn who get in their way. I don't think it's just my paranoia either as I mentioned to a few people that I was hoping to go to this tonight and the first thing they all did was express worry for our safety.

Millicent · 11-07-2012 4:01pm

Someone took those ads into their own hands in Bray... :pac:

Morag · 11-07-2012 4:17pm

iguana wrote: »

Will try my best to make it this evening. I'm a bit nervous as I'm 5 months pregnant and I have experience of YD groups getting violent when people openly opposing them but I've enlisted my husband as 'bodyguard' so should be ok. It's so screwed up that a pregnant woman feels so safety cautious when it comes to dealing with pro-lifers but YD stink of hypocrisy and I would not trust the majority of them to actually give a damn about the life of any unborn who get in their way. I don't think it's just my paranoia either as I mentioned to a few people that I was hoping to go to this tonight and the first thing they all did was express worry for our safety.

I'm going and am more then happy to stand with ye, there is always a garda presence at Lenister house anyway, so I don't think we'll have much hassle.

christmas2012 · 11-07-2012 9:15pm

abortion is not the answer being honest if it makes a woman think twice before termination then i think its a positive thing,im not against abortion though as funny as that sounds,granted if youre in the wrong relationship or your boyfriend is an asshole or a wife beater etc,its probably the better option,but in the long run sometimes you can look back in regret for what you have done,i wouldnt say abortion is for everyone..regret is hard to live with for some people and it really is..

Tigger99 · 11-07-2012 10:11pm

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion is not the answer being honest if it makes a woman think twice before termination then i think its a positive thing,im not against abortion though as funny as that sounds,granted if youre in the wrong relationship or your boyfriend is an asshole or a wife beater etc,its probably the better option,but in the long run sometimes you can look back in regret for what you have done,i wouldnt say abortion is for everyone..regret is hard to live with for some people and it really is..

Think twice? Every woman I know that's had an abortion has thought deeply about it. It such a deeply naive myth to state that women having abortions do it Willy nilly.

It's so patronising, this attitude (not at you Christmas2012 but generally). Do people really think that women have abortions without considering the alternatives, and in many cases its the most heartbreaking decision that they will ever make, but it doesn't mean that its one that they will regret.

iguana · 11-07-2012 10:15pm

I'm very happy to have been proved paranoid. Protest went well, I stayed for about an hour and there was absolutely no trouble at it.:)

Didn't get to meet Sharrow though, maybe next time.

Morag · 12-07-2012 12:03am

Sorry I missed you iguana.

There was between 300 and 400 people there, a good mix of men and women and the age group was mostly young people in their 20s - 30s.

12+-+1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bp3QecD82A

Sar_Bear · 12-07-2012 2:47am

I was shocked to see this billboard recently. I think it should be a womans right to choose. And not have these billboards as a constant reminder or a guilt trip to any woman who has gone through this.

Sent the letter to 4 of my TDs and to the advertising crowd. Thanks OP.

Edit : I just went to the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland and see that they will not be investigating this ad even though they have gotten numerous complaints. BS

Laneyh · 12-07-2012 8:21am

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion is not the answer being honest if it makes a woman think twice before termination then i think its a positive thing,im not against abortion though as funny as that sounds,granted if youre in the wrong relationship or your boyfriend is an asshole or a wife beater etc,its probably the better option,but in the long run sometimes you can look back in regret for what you have done,i wouldnt say abortion is for everyone..regret is hard to live with for some people and it really is..

Wait .. What ? Abortion might be the answer depending on the circumstances
or at least the only viable option. Saying its not the answer and then citing examples of when it might be appropriate is somewhat contradictory no ?

Regret is hard to live with as is harassment, intimidation and social stigma.

Abortion is illegal in Ireland, so is euthanasia but I accept that people travel abroad sometimes to resolve a situation as they see fit. I see nothing to be gained from a campaign which subjects these people to some kind of guilt trip.
In a lot of cases they have already missed out on the normal aftercare involved post abortion as they have to return to Ireland

If I try to take the campaign on face value I still can't see anything good about it to be honest
It tells me that it tears women's and unborn children's lives apart - ok
And there is always a better answer -ok

I click onto the YD site to see what this better way is - do I find referrals to counselling services, a directory of healthcare professionals in my area, any information prudent to unplanned pregnancy, adoption options ? - a small amount of info buried within the site

The campaign has failed if its aim was to provide women considering an abortion with a better answer. I found no answers on the site just scaremongering

As an organisation YD do not support contraception or sex education and I don't know if it's part of their official line but most of them are anti gay also.

So it seems to me they're pretty short on answers

Morag · 12-07-2012 10:58am

Well there seems to be a conglomerate of pro choice groups getting together, so this won't be the last demo or action. Over night I've seen more pro choice groups set up on facebook for different parts of the country so there will be more actions and demos to come.

iguana · 13-07-2012 12:18pm

Did you know that 79% of women want Fine Gael to keep it's pro-life commitments? Well the guys at prolifecampaign.ie do.

It's looking like there is a big, big push here to prevent law change. I'm guessing it's in light of the fact that sooner or later whoever is in power is going to have to legislate for the X-case as ordered by the ECHR in 2010.

Eta; for anyone wondering, they got the 79% figure from a poll where they asked; “Are you in favour or opposed to constitutional protection for the unborn that prohibits abortion but allows the continuation of the existing practice of intervention to save a mother's life, in accordance with Irish medical ethics?"

Honey-ec · 13-07-2012 12:34pm

iguana wrote: »

Eta; for anyone wondering, they got the 79% figure from a poll where they asked; “Are you in favour or opposed to constitutional protection for the unborn that prohibits abortion but allows the continuation of the existing practice of intervention to save a mother's life, in accordance with Irish medical ethics?"

Cue this face -

- from most people they asked.

And the surveyor going "Just say yes."

Morag · 13-07-2012 12:38pm

There is a huge push.

The many an varied pro choice groups are starting to band together.
The Irish Choice Network has been set up to connect pro choice groups and pro choice people so that they can co ordinate and communicate to make sure pro choice voices are heard and pro choice people know they aren't alone and there are ways to get involved.

https://www.facebook.com/IrishChoiceNetwork
https://twitter.com/IrishChoiceNet
https://plus.google.com/u/0/b/103499200601550354933/

Maple · 13-07-2012 12:44pm

Honey-ec wrote: »

iguana wrote: »

Eta; for anyone wondering, they got the 79% figure from a poll where they asked; “Are you in favour or opposed to constitutional protection for the unborn that prohibits abortion but allows the continuation of the existing practice of intervention to save a mother's life, in accordance with Irish medical ethics?"

Cue this face - - from most people they asked.

And the surveyor going "Just say yes."

100% agree.I'd be absolutely bamboozled by a question like that. The meaning is lost in the million words used.

iguana · 13-07-2012 12:55pm

Not only that but the demand for new legislation is based within the framework of the current constitution, so the claim in the add is crap anyway because even if 100% of people said the constitution is just fine, that has nothing whatsoever on whether or not they want legislative change.

iguana · 13-07-2012 1:47pm

It gets worse and worse. Only 57% of respondents to the poll said yes. 27% said don't know/no opinion and 16% said no. So the prolifecampaign people left out the 27% and got their 79% by only calculating from 73% of the respondents.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/iab9vc

Honey-ec · 13-07-2012 1:55pm

iguana wrote: »

It gets worse and worse. Only 57% of respondents to the poll said yes. 27% said don't know/no opinion and 16% said no. So the prolifecampaign people left out the 27% and got their 79% by only calculating from 73% of the respondents.

*head explodes*

Because that's perfectly acceptable survey methodology...

Hermione* · 13-07-2012 2:23pm

iguana wrote: »

Eta; for anyone wondering, they got the 79% figure from a poll where they asked; “Are you in favour or opposed to constitutional protection for the unborn that prohibits abortion but allows the continuation of the existing practice of intervention to save a mother's life, in accordance with Irish medical ethics?"

Thank you so much for posting that – I have been wondering what “pro life/ anti choice” commitments they were talking about!

Maple wrote: »

100% agree.I'd be absolutely bamboozled by a question like that. The meaning is lost in the million words used.

I had to read it 4 times before I even began to comprehend it :rolleyes:

iguana wrote: »

Not only that but the demand for new legislation is based within the framework of the current constitution, so the claim in the add is crap anyway because even if 100% of people said the constitution is just fine, that has nothing whatsoever on whether or not they want legislative change.

Exactly! I can really see them pushing for yet another referendum, because the last one gave the “wrong” answer.

Piste, your letter was wonderful. I’m going to copy it and send it to all of my TDs, if that’s ok

Faith · 14-07-2012 12:38pm

Piste, I also stole your letter and sent it to my local TDs

.

Piste · 14-07-2012 4:37pm

Hermione* wrote: »

Piste, your letter was wonderful. I’m going to copy it and send it to all of my TDs, if that’s ok

Faith wrote: »

Piste, I also stole your letter and sent it to my local TDs .

Aw thanks you guys, I'm more than happy that you did that

It seems that pro-life groups are incredibly well organised and more than willing to pick up the phone/send emails than pro-choice groups or individuals so because they shout louder they can make their numbers seem larger. The government will continue to dance around this issue until legislating/holding another referendum seems like a politically expedient move.

Labour have come under a lot of criticism for reneging on their pre-election promises so will likely seize an opportunity to set themselves apart from Fine Gael, and considering their support tends to be quite liberal and they are seen as a liberal party they wont expend a lot of political capital in doing so.

Fine Gael, on the other hand, probably see pressing ahead with legislation as expending a lot of political capital that they simply don't have and will probably be more reluctant to do so unless it looks like they have a groundswell of support from their own voters, not just constituents who will always vote ULA/SWP/other leftists groups. That's why we really need to target Fine Gael as they have the power to enact legislation, they just need to know that doing so wont completely ruin any chances of re-election.

Fianna Fáil too has an emerging branch of more liberal TDs, so it could be a good idea to target Fianna Fáil TDs, and by highlighting Fine Gael's lack of action on abortion legislation, have them use this as a political battering ram to point out Fine Gael's failure to act in this area.

TL;DR: There are good reasons to target Fine Gael, Labour and Fianna Fáil TDs, by taking a multi-pronged approach we're more likely to turn up the heat on the government and see some action.

Ginny · 14-07-2012 7:13pm

As did I Piste...:o
I got a response from Clare Daly and Brendan Ryan, Nothing from O'Reilly or Alan Farrell.
Here are the responses:

Thanks for getting in touch. I totally agree with you and the points that you have highlighted are well made. I moved legislation earlier this year in relation to the X case and will be putting the government under huge pressure to legislate for this, as a minimum, after the Expert group makes its findings. We will be pressuring them to consider a far broader provision than that.
With regard to the appalling billboards, I have been trying over the past two weeks to try and get some action and movement on this issue. I have submitted it to be discussed as a topical issue on a number of occasions but the Ceann Comhairle has refused to pick it. I have also put down questions to both the Minister for Communications and Health on the matter. The responses I have copied below and give you an idea of what an absolute disgrace the government is. With each Minister kicking it to the next. However it is really heartening to see the number of people who are complaining on this and I will keeping try to get the government to take action. Thanks a million for keeping the pressure on and we will do likewise. The only positive is that it is indicative of the desperate measures and how amounts of money that they are prepared to spend as they know that there view is not the dominant one in society and that people have become much more tolerant. It is actually a sign of weakness rather than strength.

PARLIAMENTARY QUESTION NO. 146
Dáil Éireann
To ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if he will consider advertising standards in relation to non commercial advertising with particular reference to the recent contentious and objectionable advertising campaign conducted by an organisation (details supplied)..

* For WRITTEN answer on Thursday, 28th June, 2012.

Youth Defence

Ref No: 31399/12

REPLY

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Mr. P. Rabbitte)
The matter of advertising on billboards does not come within the remit of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and I have no role in that regard.

My role in providing a governance structure for advertising extends only to broadcast media, and to a small component of online advertising, that of video on demand.

I understand that the subject matter of this advertisement campaign is a matter for the Department of Health.

QUESTION NO: 258
DÁIL QUESTION addressed to the Minister for Health (Dr. James Reilly)

for WRITTEN ANSWER on 28/06/2012
* To ask the Minister for Health the measures he proposes to take in relation to regulating anti-abortion advertising which is misleading and offensive.

REPLY.
The Minister for Health has no remit in relation to this form of advertising and does not propose to take any action in relation to this matter.

Dear X,

Thank you very much for contacting me on this very important issue. Firstly, I wish to assure you that I would never be swayed by a campaign from Youth Defence. It is in the program for Government that we will legislate for the X Case. This was a minimum requirement for the Labour Party upon entering into coalition with Fine Gael. We are currently awaiting the report from the expert group set up on the matter before proceeding. Please be assured that this issue is an important one for the Labour Party and it is discussed regularly at Parliamentary Party meetings.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of assistance on this or any other matter.

Kind regards

If there are any issues with the posting of the responses I'll take them back down.:)

Fox McCloud · 15-07-2012 10:06pm

I sent emails to all the TDs in my area (cork south-central) and have only gotten the basic acknowledgement of receipt of them so far.

I really feel the prolife groups are shooting themselves in the foot with these campaigns.
The situation in Ireland at the moment is a stalemate, with a minority shouting either way.
These campaigns are getting the country talking about abortion again, at a time when the government HAVE to legislate for the former X case. By opening up public discussion they are practically forcing the government to deal with the needed legislation and provoking much discussion on the issue!

Morag · 17-07-2012 5:16pm

A letter about the lack of coverage about the demo got printed in the Indo.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/womens-rights-deserve-our-focus-too-3171098.html

Women's rights deserve our focus, too
I would like to respond to Eric Conway's letter (Irish Independent, July 16), headline 'The gay marriage fad'. Though I fear my point of view may not hold sufficient value for him -- I am not an adolescent and therefore worry that the 'fad' of gay marriage has taken permanent root and become something more akin to 'brainwashing' -- I should like to point out that the radical notion that homosexuals are people and should be entitled to wed whomsoever they choose is hardly an irrational notion.

Much like the radical notion that women are people, to legislate for same-sex marriage is a necessary part of a progressive and inclusive society that recognises the rights of all citizens.

Further, neither the Irish Independent nor any other Irish publication took the time to cover a large-scale protest outside the Dail on July 11. Organised in response to the advertising authority's refusal to investigate the misleading and offensive Youth Defence billboard campaign, the protest saw a turnout of almost 400 people and was attended by Senator Ivana Bacik and Richard Boyd Barrett TD.

Surely, if Mr Conway's views are afforded a platform (and Letter of the Day, no less), the views, rights, opinions, and campaigns of the women of Ireland also deserve focus and attention.

A progressive and inclusive society must work to recognise the rights of all of its citizens.

The women who are forced to travel to the UK to avail of abortion procedures are also citizens of this country, and do not deserve to be shamed and disrespected in the manner in which Youth Defence insists.

That no leading newspaper in Ireland saw fit to give a wider voice to this protest is shameful.

The publication of Mr Conway's letter indicates that the Irish Independent is happy to give a voice to outrageous and scandalising claims, presumably in the name of publicity and attention.

It is hardly surprising, therefore, that Youth Defence continues to be heard while the voices of a reasoned and respectful group are drowned out.

Might I suggest you take a brief aside from endless articles on weight loss, husband-stealing and exercise regimens, and give some attention to an actual women's rights issue -- a far more pressing and important issue.

Grace Duffy
Inchicore, Dublin 8

Morgase · 19-07-2012 11:15am

I'm not sure if this thread is the best best for this or a new thread, so mods please move it if needed. It's a piece in today's Irish Times which I found rather worrying. Bold emphasis mine.

A LARGE group of Fine Gael TDs and Senators laid down a strong marker last night that they will oppose any proposal to Government that will result in abortion laws being liberalised.

Some 15 TDs said they would oppose legislation that would pave the way for abortion and insisted the findings of the expert group on abortion be discussed with them before it is brought to Cabinet. In a signal of a potential backbench mutiny on a flashpoint issue, two of the party’s TDs indicated they would vote against any such laws in the Dáil, even in the event of a Government whip being imposed.

Minister for Health James Reilly, who will receive the report from the expert group, last night gave a commitment to his colleagues that he would consult with them on the findings before going to Cabinet. Dr Reilly made what one TD described as a “cast-iron guarantee” in that regard.

A number of TDs who spoke to The Irish Times last night indicated the parliamentary party was overwhelmingly opposed to liberalisation of the abortion laws.

“I firmly believe that abortion will present a greater challenge than austerity for this Government,” said one TD.

“Fine Gael and Labour have clearly diverging views on this. We made it clear that for Fine Gael this is a red-line issue. We must make sure that Fine Gael Ministers in Cabinet are fully aware of the strong views of Senators and TDs on the matter,” he added.

Party chairman, Laois TD Charlie Flanagan, confirmed the assurance given by Dr Reilly: “The Fine Gael party will have every opportunity to discuss the abortion issue and the report of the expert group before any Government decision is made,” he said.

The matter was raised with Dr Reilly by Waterford TD John Deasy at the end of a presentation by the Minister for Health on the Health Service Executive.

He said the matter could not be decided by Government without reference to Fine Gael TDs and Senators. Two TDs, Simon Harris from Wicklow and James Bannon from Longford-Westmeath, said they would vote against any such law in the Dáil.

Concerns had been raised within Fine Gael in recent weeks that the Cabinet would make a decision on the report of the expert group, chaired by High Court judge Seán Ryan, and present it to Fine Gael as a “done deal”.

There was also concern about Dr Reilly’s response to the recent private member’s motion brought by Socialist Party TD Clare Daly, which called for legislation to give effect to the ruling in the European Court of Human Rights on the “X” case.

Dr Reilly had said that six successive governments had shirked their responsibility on the issue.

However, he told his colleagues last night that that did not necessarily mean a commitment to legislate, rather a commitment to address the issue.

He also defended the expert group against suggestions that it was imbalanced or partial.

The group, formed in January in response to the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights on Irish abortion laws, is expected to complete its work in September.

Minister of State Lucinda Creighton and Limerick Fine Gael TD Patrick O’Donovan both argued that the State was not bound to ECHR decisions in the same way as it was to the European Court of Justice.

Among those who spoke out strongly were John O’Mahony (Mayo), Regina Doherty (Meath East) and Mr Deasy.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0719/1224320380991.html

The Recliner · 19-07-2012 11:24am

iguana wrote: »

Did you know that 79% of women want Fine Gael to keep it's pro-life commitments? Well the guys at prolifecampaign.ie do.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/181190_488987421115318_2104035204_n.jpg

It's looking like there is a big, big push here to prevent law change. I'm guessing it's in light of the fact that sooner or later whoever is in power is going to have to legislate for the X-case as ordered by the ECHR in 2010.

Eta; for anyone wondering, they got the 79% figure from a poll where they asked; “Are you in favour or opposed to constitutional protection for the unborn that prohibits abortion but allows the continuation of the existing practice of intervention to save a mother's life, in accordance with Irish medical ethics?"

iguana wrote: »

It gets worse and worse. Only 57% of respondents to the poll said yes. 27% said don't know/no opinion and 16% said no. So the prolifecampaign people left out the 27% and got their 79% by only calculating from 73% of the respondents.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/iab9vc

I saw one of these billboards this morning for the first time on my way to work and was wondering how they arrived at that figure as it didn't tally up with what i would have assumed was the prevailing feeling

Thanks for posting up how it was arrived at

Shocking that they are allowed to outright lie in campaigns like this, I am all for people's right to express their opinion and campaign for what they think is the right outcome but massaging the figures and misrepresenting things to get your way is underhanded no matter which side of the debate you are on

Faith · 19-07-2012 12:08pm

Fox McCloud wrote: »

I sent emails to all the TDs in my area (cork south-central) and have only gotten the basic acknowledgement of receipt of them so far.

I'm the same constituency as you, and I haven't even gotten an acknowledgement :rolleyes:.

Morgase · 19-07-2012 2:21pm

I've just sent the following to my local TD, Simon Harris of Wicklow.

I am contacting you in relation to an article in today’s Irish Times which reports that you, as well as other Fine Gael TDs and Senators, will “oppose any proposal to Government that will result in abortion laws being liberalised”.

As one of your constituents, I wish to make it clear that I entirely disagree with the way in which you are attempting to use your position in government to prevent change that would allow Irish women to access safe abortions in their own country. I ask that you put your personal views on the matter to one side and instead concentrate on representing the views of your constituents; something that, as TD for Wicklow, it saddens me to see you are not doing already.

LittleBook · 19-07-2012 4:31pm

iguana wrote: »

It gets worse and worse. Only 57% of respondents to the poll said yes. 27% said don't know/no opinion and 16% said no. So the prolifecampaign people left out the 27% and got their 79% by only calculating from 73% of the respondents.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/iab9vc

After that I would question the integrity of any survey carried out by Millward Browne Lansdowne. Their "National" Opinion Poll is based on just over 1,000 respondents.

And this poll is being used in political debate ... not that I've any time for the Seanad, Ronan Mullen being living proof of the waste of money that it is.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2012/07/12/00016.asp

Senator Mullen is quite the charmer:

Mr Burke I]husband of Amanda Mellet[/I and Ms Mellet I]who had to travel to the UK for an abortion because her baby girl's heart was so profoundly defective she would have died at birth[/I were part of a group that spoke with Oireachtas members about how they had to travel to the UK to access abortion services after receiving diagnoses that their babies' conditions were "incompatible with life".

They believe abortion should be available in Ireland in such circumstances.

Mr Burke said he was shocked by the incident and insisted they have no agenda other than helping other couples in the same situation as themselves.

Mr Burke said: "I shook his hand and said 'thanks for coming down'. But he said to me as I was shaking his hand: 'But you have a bigger agenda, don't you James'.

"And I was just shocked for a minute. And Amanda heard this, she was beside me and I just said 'what?' and he said 'you have a bigger agenda, don't you?'."

Mr Burke added "Irish couples are travelling to Liverpool right now and we just want this to end, we don't want anybody else to suffer."

:mad: [shudder]

PrincessLola · 20-07-2012 7:46pm

iguana wrote: »

It gets worse and worse. Only 57% of respondents to the poll said yes. 27% said don't know/no opinion and 16% said no. So the prolifecampaign people left out the 27% and got their 79% by only calculating from 73% of the respondents.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/iab9vc

I don't even anymore.

christmas2012 · 20-07-2012 7:50pm

freedom of speech and expression allows this to happen why prohibit it,just because it doesnt sit with your world view,the facts are some aborted babies are aborted and are struggling to live for ten hours before dying if i knew that before getting an abortion for example i wouldnt do it in the first place,what it comes down to is making an informed decision the right choice not your partners choice,however if its half retard/ugly/schizo or downs or incompatible with life i do see how some of these things can end on abortion on both sides..

Ickle Magoo · 20-07-2012 7:52pm

christmas2012 wrote: »

the facts are some aborted babies are aborted and are struggling to live for ten hours before dying

Could you give a reliable source for that fact please?

Morgase · 20-07-2012 7:54pm

I have to admit I don't understand that sentence, christmas2012. Can you rephrase?

christmas2012 · 20-07-2012 8:16pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Could you give a reliable source for that fact please?

I was watching prime time the other night and a reliable source has confirmed this..

Ickle Magoo · 20-07-2012 8:28pm

Lol, so give the source then...if "it's a fact" or "I heard it on TV" counted as a reliable source then people could get away with making all kinds of outrageous claims.

I'm genuinely interested in where this has been proven. My son was born at 34 weeks and struggled to breathe despite getting steroids to try to mature his lungs...just purely on a point of logic, claiming that aborted foetuses, the vast majority of which must be many month more immature than 34 weeks manage to breath independently for 10 hours sounds like deliberately emotive and hyperbolic propaganda.

But as all facts can be independently verified, I expect you to provide sources to support such claims.

Piste · 20-07-2012 8:28pm

Was that reliable source in fact incredibly conservative senator Ronan Mullin?

MagicMarker · 20-07-2012 8:36pm

christmas2012 wrote: »

however if its half retard/ugly/schizo or downs or incompatible with life i do see how some of these things can end on abortion on both sides..

WTF?

What does this mean?

Wibbs · 20-07-2012 8:45pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

But as all facts can be independently verified, I expect you to provide sources to support such claims.

This sums it up christmas2012, so provide links, preferably independent links, or no more of this kind of "information" please.

EDIT come out with another post that contains words like "retard/ugly/schizo" and you won't be retaining access to this forum for a time.

PrincessLola · 20-07-2012 8:45pm

christmas2012 wrote: »

however if its half retard/ugly/schizo or downs or incompatible with life i do see how some of these things can end on abortion on both sides..

Ew.

Morgase · 22-07-2012 1:57pm

Morgase wrote: »

I've just sent the following to my local TD, Simon Harris of Wicklow.

It seems that I wasn't alone in writing to Simon Harris regarding his stance on abortion. He's had this to say in today's Independent.

VOLTAIRE once commented that "the most important thing in life is to speak your mind". That's exactly what I did last week. At a private meeting amongst colleagues, I raised concerns about legislating for abortion in Ireland, adding that should such a scenario arise, I would have grave difficulty supporting it. The next day I read about my comments in the media.

I didn't think my views were radical or out of sync with the views held by many Irish people. They were my views and I am respectful of other people's views on the matter. But it seems when it comes to this issue, it is nearly impossible to make comments or profess a view without being labelled, tarred with stereotypes and becoming a receptor for insults.

And by the way, both "sides" in the long-running Irish debate on abortion are guilty of this.

If you think about it, even those terms; "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are so heavily charged with emotion and persuasion.

Why can't we just have a respectful discussion? Why can't we recognise as a society that people have strongly held views on this issue and that those views will influence their perspective on whether or not Ireland should legislate for abortion? Why can't we make the assumption that people who hold views on this issue which oppose our views may be honest, caring human beings, not bigoted caricatures?

Maybe the key to success in politics is to keep the head down and muddle on and if that's the case, maybe I won't last too long or be too electorally successful. So be it. But I think we've all seen where the herd-mentality can get us in Irish politics. The political system must allow for politicians to hold their views, stand by their principles and generate thoughts and ideas of their own. Politicians aren't mass-produced factory items. We are representatives of society and of all the various views and beliefs within it.

That is a potential strength, not a weakness. Not every issue can be decided with bland one-liners or even complex briefing notes.

My political week would have been a lot quieter had I kept my mouth shut and my views to myself. But people don't get involved in politics for a quiet life. The people of Wicklow and East Carlow who sent me to the Dail may not always agree with everything I say or do but at least they can be assured that I will speak my mind and that I will stand by my values.

Issues around abortion are complex. We must not destroy decent debate on this crucial issue by ignoring those complexities. I don't have all the answers nor do I claim to. But I have a strongly held view on this and I need to stand by that belief. I will not throw insults at others of opposing views, in the way others threw insults at me last week. In a liberal, open society which so many people talk of, guaranteeing people their right to hold a view, to make that view known and to stand by their principles is not an optional extra. Liberalism, tolerance and openness require each of us to respect the rights of others to differ with you, to have thoughts and beliefs with which you may not concur.

Yes, of course we need expert opinion. Yes, of course we need compassion. But no expert opinion can take away from the fact that each and every one of us has within us beliefs to which we have a right to be true. You should not be compelled to give up those beliefs just because you are a politician. In fact, the whole system would be stronger if we encouraged politicians not to adopt a herd-mentality.

I have my view and belief on the issue of abortion. Many people share that view. Many people don't and that is fine. A truly representative democracy requires differing views and needs to provide the space for these views to be articulated and for decisions to be made.

Simon Harris is the Fine Gael TD for Wicklow

Link: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/simon-harris-its-not-bigoted-to-have-a-view-on-abortion-3175273.html

Whilst I'm glad he's made some sort of response rather than hoping we'd all go away, I can't say I'm happy with it. He doesn't seem to get that he's not in the Dáil to express his own views, but rather to represent the views of the constituents. I don't want to be assured that he'll stand by his own values, I want mine to be represented!

Piste · 22-07-2012 7:49pm

I had no problem with the Independent article. Harris is there to represent the views of his constituents to be sure, but just because some of his constituents have written to him expressing their own pro-choice views, it doesn't mean that there isn't a large group of pro-life who have contacted him expressing their own views on the issue. With such a divisive issue such as abortion it's incredibly difficult to represent the views of all your constituents so you might as well pick the side that aligns with your own personal ethos.

If any of you were in Harris position and you had a lot of contact from pro-life people urging you to oppose abortion legislation would you honestly compromise your own principles and sacrifice what you belive to be right because you feel it's politically expedient? I think those are the worst kinds of politicians.

Ickle Magoo · 22-07-2012 7:57pm

Actually, I think the worst kind of politicians are those that get into power and use their new found influence to further their own personal agendas/view-points regardless of the position of those that gave them their seat...

Great way of alienating many of your electorate and ensuring they don't give you another term tho...I suspect he'll regret using his elected position to platform such divisive personal views from.

Morgase · 22-07-2012 8:07pm

I see what you're saying, Piste, and I'm sure he's now had lots of contact from both pro- and anti-choice people but he's choosing to represent only the side that is in line with how he feels. If he feels strongly about this, then he should have said so to begin with (as in at election time).

If I were in Harris' position, I'd be sure to state clearly what my views are on my electioneering literature / website regarding abortion and other issues such as gay marriage. That way people know what they'd be getting and what stance I'd be taking in the Dáil.

Piste · 22-07-2012 9:57pm

People weren't calling for politicians to nail their colours to the mast when it comes to abortion during the last general election though. I'm sure people who felt very strongly about it questioned these politicians when canvassing and then voted accordingly. Abortion was sidelined by the economy, education and healthcare and people weren't really talking about individual politicians' viewpoints. I really don't see why he should have to put on a pro-choice face is really he is pro-life, do his pro-life constituents not deserve to be represented as well?

The same can be true of any divisive issue, take austerity -vs- spending stimulus for example: If a politician is advocating one over the other of course he or she is going to be alienating some of their constituents who believe otherwise. To pander to your electorate by making politically expedient statements you don't believe in is just populism.

Ickle Magoo · 22-07-2012 10:11pm

Piste wrote: »

I really don't see why he should have to put on a pro-choice face is really he is pro-life, do his pro-life constituents not deserve to be represented as well?

Surely BOTH "deserve" to be represented...that's the issue isn't it? If your electorate raise an issue then as an elected representative it's your job to raise those issues for discussion in the Dail. I certainly wouldn't be voting as fit for office again a politician who can't separate their personal feelings/views and represent the interests of both sides on such a sensitive issue...doubly so given the ruling on the X case.

Piste · 22-07-2012 11:22pm

If the role of TDs is to remain impartial then how could they ever vote on anything/pass any laws if they can't come down on one side of an issue? Do you have the same problem with TDs who come out and say they're pro-choice, even though many of their constituents may be pro-life?

Ickle Magoo · 23-07-2012 1:37am

I think if TD's are entrusted with legislating for the nation then it stands to reason they should be made to show complete transparency with regards to how they would vote on these major issues prior to election, especially if it contradicts party policy...and I think that should be the case regardless of whether they are pro or anti-choice.

It worries me greatly that people put their faith in party politics and specific politicians who then ignore the wishes of swathes of those that gave them their seat and legislate for a nation based on nothing more than their own personal beliefs.

If personal gain and personal view is all the matters, all that politicians should concern themselves with, then lets abolish government and put everything to referendum...or, you know, expect those that wish to take on the responsibility of raising legal issues and legal changes do so with the interests of ALL their constituents rather than just themselves.

Piste · 23-07-2012 2:08am

To be honest there's a lot to be said for more direct-democracy like the Americans and Swiss do. It means we can't fob off tough decisions on politicians and we get more of a say in what kind of country we want to live in.

Ickle Magoo · 23-07-2012 2:19am

And politicians can't pretend Europe hasn't already ruled Ireland violates it's own constitution, fob off the tough decisions for decades &/or merrily ship off their tough decisions to their nearest neighbour so they can pretend to have taken the moral high-ground...

Don't any changes to the Irish constitution have to be put to referendum here anyway?

analucija · 23-07-2012 4:54am

I'm disgusted with the views of some FG politicians but I prefer to have representatives who speak their mind and not somebody who decides based on popular opinion. It is impossible to represent every single view and every single vote and what we have today is inderect democracy. Besides if you would give vote to every single person on the list, would then they all have to represent you views? We vote for the least bad option and not for the perfect match and have a chance to revisit the decision in the next election.

Btw this country had a politician who was a master at keeping all sides happy. Do you really want to go there again?

analucija · 23-07-2012 5:00am

Piste wrote: »

To be honest there's a lot to be said for more direct-democracy like the Americans and Swiss do. It means we can't fob off tough decisions on politicians and we get more of a say in what kind of country we want to live in.

The direct democracy in Switzerland decided minarets should be banned because they don't match alpine architecture. From experience with pointless referdums I can say they especially attract partisan voters who have no idea what they are voting for or against. Personally I don't think it works.

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