Trinity BEGGING for money

kthnxbai · 06-05-2011 3:48pm

amacachi wrote: »

I can think of 4 subjects I did where teaching was next to unnecessary and one other where about 2 months of teaching would have sufficed. :P

Ok well, which subjects are these now? And since they're apparently all so easy, I'm assuming that you got A1s in all of them, yeah?

What did you go on to do in college out of interest?

KH25 · 06-05-2011 3:49pm

amacachi wrote: »

I can think of 4 subjects I did where teaching was next to unnecessary and one other where about 2 months of teaching would have sufficed. :P

CSPE for junior cert doesn't count

Fair play to you if that was the case, but a lot of others would need to be taught.

g'em · 06-05-2011 3:57pm

28064212 wrote: »

Not that I know of, HEAR and the Foundation Course are separate. I don't know what supports are available to Foundation grads

Ah grand, I was referring specifically to the Foundation course - those students are treated as any other student would be.

wrote:

Once you're accepted for HEAR, those are available to you as part of it

So you have to be first accepted to HEAR and meet criteria for it? I'm just trying to point out that stuff isn't "thrown at" these students as has been suggested.

Tragedy wrote: »

Yup, but I was eligible for entry to a 485 point course with ~235 points as a mature. TAP isn't any different to the best of my knowledge.

But with the TAP foundation course you do an extra foundation eyar so although you may get in on lower points you also do an extra year of learning.

Tragedy wrote:

I think the point is that there's plenty of people from middle class/lower middle class backgrounds who would be just as capable and apt as TAP/HEAR entrants, if also given a chance.

Very possibly, but that's the nature of the points race. There's not many people in the TAP foundation course - 50 get accepted, 25 matures and 25 young adults, not all complete, not all go on to University but I'm getting the impression think that TAP students are somehow stealing the places of other people.

Tragedy wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, they aren't translated to points.
What happens is theres a quota for TAP/HEAR/Mature Students and you're benchmarked against other applicants, not normal entry students.
I think it's quite rare for people who successfully complete the access programme to not be offered a place, in most colleges it's guaranteed.

I think that's changed in the last 12 months. And I'd definitely argue that you're guaranteed a place via TAP - you still have to work your year and get your marks, it's not an easy backdoor option. I don't think os anyway

amacachi wrote: »

A C in OL maths passes for proficiency now?

It is when you're applying for a foundation course where you'll spend a year being brought up to the same standard as other students. If you don't meet that standard you can't apply for your course. You still need to meet the CAO requirements at the end of the day.

amacachi wrote:

What's the formula for the points? Just out of interest?

I'm not at liberty to say

amacachi · 06-05-2011 3:59pm

kthnxbai wrote: »

So, you're complaining about the money and assistance that some people get, yet you would have taken it yourself?

So you're just being bitter about it, then?

Of course I would have taken it, I'm a human being and self-interest is ingrained in us. What's unfair when others have to support someone else's self-interest. I shouldn't be getting what I'm getting now, but of course I'll take it. If there had been a loans system in place for fees I would still have gone to college because I'm not an idiot.

kthnxbai wrote: »

Ok well, which subjects are these now? And since they're apparently all so easy, I'm assuming that you got A1s in all of them, yeah?

What did you go on to do in college out of interest?

Geography is remarkably easy, as is Biology. Economics I understood intuitively and Business is a joke. There's 4. I did three of them and got Bs in all of them, literally did no studying whatsoever and did maybe 30% of the homework we got through 5th and 6th year.

Currently in second year of Science. Will most likely be back in August, much harder to wing it in college. :pac:

amacachi · 06-05-2011 4:01pm

g'em wrote: »

It is when you're applying for a foundation course where you'll spend a year being brought up to the same standard as other students. If you don't meet that standard you can't apply for your course. You still need to meet the CAO requirements at the end of the day.

Again I'm mainly talking about a specific case but it makes me wonder about the literacy standards in one of the other foundation programmes. (Not science.)

I'm not at liberty to say

Didn't think so. :pac:

Tragedy · 06-05-2011 4:03pm

g'em wrote: »

But with the TAP foundation course you do an extra foundation eyar so although you may get in on lower points you also do an extra year of learning.

Which is great, and successful - again, I think the issue a few people have is that it's only available to just "poor" people.

Very possibly, but that's the nature of the points race. There's not many people in the TAP foundation course - 50 get accepted, 25 matures and 25 young adults, not all complete, not all go on to University but I'm getting the impression think that TAP students are somehow stealing the places of other people.

The points race everyone competes in, except TAP/HEAR(and HEAR is the issue for me, I don't have a problem with TAP past the criteria being based on paper statistics/numbers and not looking at the real situation of those applying).

I think that's changed in the last 12 months. And I'd definitely argue that you're guaranteed a place via TAP - you still have to work your year and get your marks, it's not an easy backdoor option. I don't think os anyway

According to the website, anything over 50% and you're golden. 50% for a foundation year isn't asking particularly much.

For example, UCD guarantees places to Access graduates if they achieve over 60% in their Access year - and UCD are far more stringent when it comes to Access/Mature Students.

kthnxbai · 06-05-2011 4:06pm

amacachi wrote: »

Of course I would have taken it, I'm a human being and self-interest is ingrained in us. What's unfair when others have to support someone else's self-interest. I shouldn't be getting what I'm getting now, but of course I'll take it. If there had been a loans system in place for fees I would still have gone to college because I'm not an idiot.

Geography is remarkably easy, as is Biology. Economics I understood intuitively and Business is a joke. There's 4. I did three of them and got Bs in all of them, literally did no studying whatsoever and did maybe 30% of the homework we got through 5th and 6th year.

Currently in second year of Science. Will most likely be back in August, much harder to wing it in college. :pac:

Well why are you being so offensive to people who are getting government funding? Would you have hated yourself if you'd gotten more assistance?

And I'm not just looking out for my own self-interest. It is MUCH better for the entire economy for me to go to college and get an education and get a decent job at the end of all this and pay taxes and the like.

So, you don't seem to think that everyone is entitled to an education. I personally think it's something that everyone should have the opportunity to avail of. This is why I think it's right for the government to provide education just like it would for housing or healthcare.

The only one of the 4 subjects that you listed above that I did for my LC was biology. And as much as I'll admit that I did not struggle at all with the subject (I did get an A though) I don't think it's true to say that it's only 2 months of work for the majority of students.

Also, just from your last statement, it doesn't sound like you work very much. You should be thankful that you have the opportunity to go to college and appreciate it a bit more.

amacachi · 06-05-2011 4:15pm

kthnxbai wrote: »

Well why are you being so offensive to people who are getting government funding? Would you have hated yourself if you'd gotten more assistance?

You're reading disagreement as offensiveness, I can't control how someone reads my posts. I don't hate anyone for taking anything from the government, I hate that it's available.

And I'm not just looking out for my own self-interest. It is MUCH better for the entire economy for me to go to college and get an education and get a decent job at the end of all this and pay taxes and the like.

Really now, is 90% of the reason you're going to college not to improve your situation and that of a possible future family? The economic argument is something I disagree with as well but it may be for another thread. People should pay for their own things and shouldn't have to pay more for making use of what they get/make/do, as will be the case if a graduate tax rather than loans system is introduced.

So, you don't seem to think that everyone is entitled to an education. I personally think it's something that everyone should have the opportunity to avail of. This is why I think it's right for the government to provide education just like it would for housing or healthcare.

Everyone should be entitled to the opportunity of having an education. Some people don't want it, some aren't very good at it and some can't see the wood for the trees.

The only one of the 4 subjects that you listed above that I did for my LC was biology. And as much as I'll admit that I did not struggle at all with the subject (I did get an A though) I don't think it's true to say that it's only 2 months of work for the majority of students.

I wasn't saying it was a couple of months of work for students. Other than photosynthesis and metabolism and a couple of other bits and pieces the huge majority of the course is simply reading and remembering things, there's nothing to understand or concept to unlock. I was saying that there is little "teaching" needed for much of the course.

Also, just from your last statement, it doesn't sound like you work very much. You should be thankful that you have the opportunity to go to college and appreciate it a bit more.

I'm probably the laziest bastard I've ever known. Even smackheads make an effort to get drugs, when I was doing them I had to make no effort. :pac:
I'm thankful I have the chance to go to college and do appreciate it. However I've got several major beefs with how the education system in this country works and I should have been finished a long time ago. It's only the next two years that count on the degree so I'll start working then. :pac:

starling. · 06-05-2011 4:19pm

Fo Real wrote: »

Can't get enough points or just couldn't be arsed studying? No problem, move into the council flats on Pearse St and you're guaranteed a place in Trinners.

Er... That's not how it works.

Fo Real wrote: »

And yet the college will still wastefully squander funds on needless expenses like class rep training and ethnic minority societies.

This is completely irrelevant to your main 'argument' and false to boot. The class rep training is paid for by the SU, not the college. Societies are given money from the CSC, not the college.

Fo Real wrote: »

Instead I predict another influx of "cash cow" students from Malaysia and India who don't integrate into college life at all.

Why do you say that foreign people don't integrate into college life at all? That's not something I've ever come across, and you don't seem to be a very good source on that point since your vitriolic rant leads me to doubt that you have very many international student friends.

Fo Real wrote: »

Can Trinity's rep fall any further?

With people like you, undoubtedly.

It's important to increase access to university for obvious reasons. Unfortunately everyone is not privy to the same opportunities in life and programs like this help to even the playing field.

kthnxbai · 06-05-2011 4:20pm

amacachi wrote: »

Really now, is 90% of the reason you're going to college not to improve your situation and that of a possible future family? The economic argument is something I disagree with as well but it may be for another thread. People should pay for their own things and shouldn't have to pay more for making use of what they get/make/do, as will be the case if a graduate tax rather than loans system is introduced.

I don't see how a loans system would prevent this any more than a graduate tax. They are essentially the same thing after all. Now I'm not saying that I don't agree with fees and student loans and the like, but I think that your argument is a little contradictory.

And yes, I am going to college to improve my own situation. But it's still worthwhile to encourage people to want to improve their situation and to help them do this if neccessary

Everyone should be entitled to the opportunity of having an education. Some people don't want it, some aren't very good at it and some can't see the wood for the trees.

Exactly, so if you think that everyone is entitled to an education, that surely means that government support for this is ok too?

amacachi · 06-05-2011 4:26pm

kthnxbai wrote: »

I don't see how a loans system would prevent this any more than a graduate tax. They are essentially the same thing after all. Now I'm not saying that I don't agree with fees and student loans and the like, but I think that your argument is a little contradictory.

Graduate tax would be a percentage of income. Two people having had the same opportunities at college, one gets paid more than the other so pays more for their degree.

Exactly, so if you think that everyone is entitled to an education, that surely means that government support for this is ok too?

They're entitled to the opportunity which is what school's function should be. Once someone reaches young adulthood they should be responsible for paying their own way. I still don't see how fees with a loans system robs anyone of that opportunity to go to university/college.

kthnxbai · 06-05-2011 4:31pm

amacachi wrote: »

Graduate tax would be a percentage of income. Two people having had the same opportunities at college, one gets paid more than the other so pays more for their degree.

They're entitled to the opportunity which is what school's function should be. Once someone reaches young adulthood they should be responsible for paying their own way. I still don't see how fees with a loans system robs anyone of that opportunity to go to university/college.

It doesn't at all. Like I said, I don't necessarily disagree with a loan system. However, you need to take into account that certain courses also cost more than others. So this isn't equal either.

I would agree that the whole fees issue needs a lot of reform. But at the moment, I don't see a problem with how grants and the like work. Sure, they're not entirely fair, but nothing ever is.

Can you guarantee that a loans system wouldn't rob some people from their opportunity to go to college? No. So nothing is perfect and you need to accept that the government provides extra support for some people because they need it.

Gae · 06-05-2011 4:33pm

Fo Real wrote: »

"One election candidate (Prof Des Fitzgerald) suggested the college deficit could exceed €100 million within five years" from http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0404/1224293735891.html

We're in bad shape, to put it lightly.

He's just saying that because he ran UCD into the ground wasting money. It would certainly exceed €100 million if he was elected provost.

Tragedy · 06-05-2011 4:33pm

I'm completely against Graduate Tax/Loans.

Universities are ridiculously inefficient, no way I'm paying ~€12,000 a year because they refuse to sort themselves out.

amacachi · 06-05-2011 4:37pm

kthnxbai wrote: »

It doesn't at all. Like I said, I don't necessarily disagree with a loan system. However, you need to take into account that certain courses also cost more than others. So this isn't equal either.

So what? Different things cost different things.

I would agree that the whole fees issue needs a lot of reform. But at the moment, I don't see a problem with how grants and the like work. Sure, they're not entirely fair, but nothing ever is.

Main problem is that the state can't afford it. As it happens I would have little problem with keeping grants for living costs even if loans for fees came in.

Can you guarantee that a loans system wouldn't rob some people from their opportunity to go to college? No. So nothing is perfect and you need to accept that the government provides extra support for some people because they need it.

But how would it? If someone decides by their own logic or by their own circumstances (family business or something similar) that it wouldn't be worth going to college that's not robbing them of the opportunity to go to college. If someone decides that they don't want to pay for whatever services they wish to make use of they're not being robbed of the opportunity to go to college.

amacachi · 06-05-2011 4:40pm

Gae wrote: »

He's just saying that because he ran UCD into the ground wasting money. It would certainly exceed €100 million if he was elected provost.

Still waiting for the OP to show me TCD's current deficit. :pac:

Tragedy wrote: »

I'm completely against Graduate Tax/Loans.

Universities are ridiculously inefficient, no way I'm paying ~€12,000 a year because they refuse to sort themselves out.

Off to Utrecht with you so! :pac:
Competition is what's needed. Once the state gets involved costs rise and efficiency falls. It works the same as the councils and when my dad worked there, every year before the accounts were finalised everything was used up, didn't matter how. When the state provides funding running a deficit means more funding. Spending less than is offered means less money the following year. There's no incentive to improve anything.

kthnxbai · 06-05-2011 4:44pm

amacachi wrote: »

So what? Different things cost different things.

I was just making this point to counter yours about a tax being a percentage, so if you earn more, you'll pay more for your education.

But how would it? If someone decides by their own logic or by their own circumstances (family business or something similar) that it wouldn't be worth going to college that's not robbing them of the opportunity to go to college. If someone decides that they don't want to pay for whatever services they wish to make use of they're not being robbed of the opportunity to go to college.

Well depending on the implementation of a loans system, you might still wind up excluding some people. You'd have to guarantee that all people could get a loan... So, making sure that it's not a kind of thing where the gov gets the banks to start offering loans but then the banks may not give loans to everyone etc.

amacachi · 06-05-2011 4:49pm

kthnxbai wrote: »

I was just making this point to counter yours about a tax being a percentage, so if you earn more, you'll pay more for your education.

I'm saying that people should pay the same for the same thing. Two people doing a law degree should pay the same, not that every degree should cost the same. If two people do the same degree why should the more successful one have to pay more for that degree? They're already going to pay more in income tax.

Well depending on the implementation of a loans system, you might still wind up excluding some people. You'd have to guarantee that all people could get a loan... So, making sure that it's not a kind of thing where the gov gets the banks to start offering loans but then the banks may not give loans to everyone etc.

They should've started it last year or the year before IMO. Government could have backed the loans for the first few years providing a tempprary injection of capital to the banks, wouldn't have affected colleges' finances. Instead the money was given straight to the colleges and other money was thrown down a black hole.
I wouldn't back a system whereby the only people who could get loans would be those who don't need them.

kthnxbai · 06-05-2011 4:51pm

amacachi wrote: »

I'm saying that people should pay the same for the same thing. Two people doing a law degree should pay the same, not that every degree should cost the same. If two people do the same degree why should the more successful one have to pay more for that degree? They're already going to pay more in income tax.

Well, depending on the implementation of a graduate tax, this could also be avoided. It wouldn't be impossible to say that you had to pay tax until you paid back X amount.

amacachi · 06-05-2011 4:55pm

kthnxbai wrote: »

Well, depending on the implementation of a graduate tax, this could also be avoided. It wouldn't be impossible to say that you had to pay tax until you paid back X amount.

Last I read it was being mooted it would just stay at 1-2%. And if it went by paying back the same amount overall whatever you earn isn't that just a loan by another name? :pac:

kthnxbai · 06-05-2011 4:59pm

kthnxbai wrote: »

I don't see how a loans system would prevent this any more than a graduate tax.
They are essentially the same thing after all.

just sayin....

amacachi · 06-05-2011 5:01pm

kthnxbai wrote: »

just sayin....

Quiet you! :P
As I said though, any mooting of it has been as a tax with no relation to what you end up paying back. I'd also be looking for a rebate sine I had to pay fees for part of my course. :pac:

A_Border_Bandit · 06-05-2011 5:20pm

I go to Trinity and I am a TAP student.

I come from a disadvantaged area and when I first came to college I was actually shocked that people had laptops, that people had broadband in their houses and that seemingly everyone had a choice of 3 or 4 secondary schools they could have attended.

We had one school which served everyone within a 20 mile radius. Classes were over-crowded and it was 4 to a microscope for biology, 2 to a computer for computer classes, 2 to a locker. There were always about 15 people too many on the bus so people stood or squashed in 3 to a seat.

The teachers (god bless them) did their best to manage but when I look at it now it's appalling what the staff and students are dealing with. Without doubt my education suffered because of the conditions. Being less than well off (family of 9 with only 9 years between the eldest and youngest, only one parent working), I never could afford grinds and we didn't have a study space available. But somehow I did well and got into Trinity with 3 of my friends (first students fro my school to ever come here).

TAP informed me that I was eligible for a bursary which helped with the exceptional costs of living away from home. They also paid for tutor to give me a few catch-up grinds in chemistry because I'm doing Science and my school didn't teach chemistry or physics.

I have 5 siblings in full time education. I've lost my part time job. My mother is a nurse and my dad can't find work.

So I don't care who they go begging off, I'm grateful for them for doing it. If they wanted me to appear in a video I'd happily do it.

Without TAP I wouldn't be in college, simple as.

andrew · 06-05-2011 6:35pm

OP, if you're going to complain about college wasting money, there are better targets than TAP to complain about.

Poor* people tend not to go to college. Not because they're poor, but because in general they come from backgrounds where a college education isn't emphasized, prized etc. Lower fees, for example, didn't really change the demographics of people going into college. So, to get poor people to go to college, you need to be more active. TAP does this. It encourages them to go as much as possible, not only through incentives (like grants), but through the social support network/friends TAP provides, and all the other stuff TAP does. The cost for an individual, granted, may be high. And there are probably even some people who didn't deserve to get the course they got. In the long run though, the children of these people are probably more likely to go to college, (without assistance), and earn more money etc. So basically, for the cost of putting one student through TAP who maybe didn't deserve it, you've potentially benefited several generations of student. And so that's why TAP's worth the cost. As opposed to random societies for people from different countries. What in the shit is the point of that?

*Poor used as a catch all for can't afford to go to college/lower socioeconomic background, whatever you want to call people who are eligible for TAP.

starling. · 06-05-2011 6:38pm

amacachi wrote: »

Competition is what's needed. Once the state gets involved costs rise and efficiency falls. It works the same as the councils and when my dad worked there, every year before the accounts were finalised everything was used up, didn't matter how. When the state provides funding running a deficit means more funding. Spending less than is offered means less money the following year. There's no incentive to improve anything.

Imo, what's needed is greater accountability and transparency with regard to college spending, not competition and privatisation. We do not want a system like that in America, where colleges are run for profit and charge something in the region of 50 grand a year.

TrollHammaren · 06-05-2011 7:49pm

I'm actually shocked by your attitude, OP. The idea that your "socialist hellhole" is making at least some efforts to minimise social class disparity indicates we're making small steps in the right direction.

I'm a TAP student sitting my final year exams, and I've served as a TAP Ambassador (advocate of the TAP programme who gives talks, organises events etc) for the four years I've been in college. Let me just squash a couple of the unfounded claims being thrown around in this forum. We don't get in on reduced points, we don't get money thrown at us, and we don't get any exam accommodations unless registered with the disability service. There seems to be some confusion as to what the TAP programme is, and it's a distinct entity from the HEAR programme.

- At entry level, TAP works in two ways. If a student in a designated disadvantaged school gets the points, they're eligible for TAP status. Each course has a requirement to allocate 15% of their places to "non-traditional" (mature, TAP, disability) students, and the TAP students are entitled to one of these places. If the student doesn't get the points, but demonstrates academic capability, they can apply to one of two foundation courses: TAP or Liberties. The TAP foundation course is run in Trinity and has its own requirements, and a student is expected to achieve a certain minimum mark in order to be considered for a place on their desired course. In the Liberties programme, the students complete a FETAC-certified course and apply through the CAO for their course in Trinity. The modules on the Liberties programme are worth CAO points, just like the LC. As far as I'm aware, there's a similar foundation course for mature students in Plunkett College (I think).

- Once a TAP student is accepted to Trinity, they're entitled to some basic supports, and they're not instantly entitled to a local authority grant - they have to apply like everyone else. Firstly, they're entitled to free fees, and a waiver of the sport centre charge. They're given a very small bursary that comes from the same source as the student hardship fund, which means its value is dependent on how many people have applied, but it usually works out at about €120 per month. In cases of academic difficulty, they may be able to apply for a certain amount of grinds, but these are very few (the disability service also offers this service). Finally, they may be able to avail of essay-writing and maths-help workshops, much like the ones available to all students.

So, as you can see, TAP students get nothing handed to them. We get a small amount of assistance, but it in no way makes up for the disadvantage in Irish society that prevents many students from achieving their potential. I can only hope that TAP secures enough funding to extend their scope to other disadvantaged schools not currently recognised.

Anyway, you can have your right-wing, elitist views, but please get your facts straight before you go ranting about us dirty freeloaders.

Sir Ophiuchus · 06-05-2011 8:32pm

The OP obviously has no concept whatsoever of privilege.

I was considering writing a big rant, but (a) TrollHammaren did it, and did it really well, and (b) I'm also doing my finals and I'm tired.

Short version: Most privileged people are completely unaware of just how much their background/social circumstances/race benefit them, then try to claim (and sometimes genuinely believe) that their accomplishments are all their own work and denigrate the disadvantaged as "lazy" or "cheating the system".

Raedwald · 06-05-2011 9:19pm

The mind really does boggle about some people. "OP" your a possibly one of the most ignorant people I have ever come across.

All of your points in your post are both unfounded and highly inaccurate.

I would also like to thank the two above posters for coming to the defense not only of TAP students but all students who receive any assistance in college.

As a former TAP student I can confirm that we do not receive thousands of euro a year to go to college. I receive both a small bursary from TAP and a maintenance grant that adds up to around 2000 euro over the course of each academic year. On top of those in order to get by i work part time throughout the year as well.

I am exceptionally grateful for TAP and the chance that it has given me and while I failed to get the points for my course through the LC, I worked harder to in my year as a foundation year to get into college as I knew it was my final chance to do so.

The academic standard required of TAP students is that of a JF level minimum as they expect you to work your socks off all year. While again i am grateful for my second chance upon entering Trinity i have proved that i am worthy of the place i have been given time and again through academic results and have not once sought the help of TAP after my completion of the course.

I would just like to finish off by saying Thank You to the above posters for defending TAP and telling the OP that he is a complete ignorant tosser, who clearly has no sense of the world around him!:mad:

El Siglo · 06-05-2011 9:47pm

Fair play to the people defending the TAP programme. I worked as a grinds tutor on a TAP-DU GAA programme, it was a great experience to say the least. Programmes like TAP cost nothing to what the College or government spends on absolute rubbish and probably have a major impact on students who otherwise wouldn't have continued in education.

evercloserunion · 06-05-2011 10:24pm

Obvious troll is obvious.

Why do we get so many in the TCD forum?

TrollHammaren · 07-05-2011 12:12am

evercloserunion wrote: »

Obvious troll is obvious.

Why do we get so many in the TCD forum?

I think this guy isn't a troll, I'm afraid. What he's saying here seems largely consistent with the posts I've seen of him before.

starling. · 07-05-2011 2:39am

TrollHammaren wrote: »

I think this guy isn't a troll, I'm afraid. What he's saying here seems largely consistent with the posts I've seen of him before.

Unfortunately I agree. What he's saying is largely consistent with a few people I know, one of whom has ranted about the idea of allowing more disadvantaged students into Trinity because it would involve sacrificing our place in the League tables :rolleyes:

Let's not forget that there's a sizable Facebook group entitled 'Ireland needs a Tea Party movement', or something to that effect.

Scary shít.

amacachi · 07-05-2011 2:42am

starling. wrote: »

Let's not forget that there's a sizable Facebook group entitled 'Ireland needs a Tea Party movement', or something to that effect. Scary shít.

Let's keep taxes and spendings where they are, see how that works out.

TrollHammaren · 07-05-2011 2:58am

amacachi wrote: »

Let's keep taxes and spendings where they are, see how that works out.

Or we could make sure that people only pay fees according to their means. That would mean that our more affluent peers' families could make some contribution towards fees.

Regardless of whether you think the college is spending wisely or not, perpetuating the elitism this college has a reputation for, a reputation that TAP is trying to shake, isn't the answer.

revz · 07-05-2011 3:00am

TrollHammaren wrote: »

I'm a TAP student sitting my final year exams, and I've served as a TAP Ambassador (advocate of the TAP programme who gives talks, organises events etc) for the four years I've been in college. Let me just squash a couple of the unfounded claims being thrown around in this forum. We don't get in on reduced points, we don't get money thrown at us, and we don't get any exam accommodations unless registered with the disability service. There seems to be some confusion as to what the TAP programme is, and it's a distinct entity from the HEAR programme.

- At entry level, TAP works in two ways. If a student in a designated disadvantaged school gets the points, they're eligible for TAP status. Each course has a requirement to allocate 15% of their places to "non-traditional" (mature, TAP, disability) students, and the TAP students are entitled to one of these places. If the student doesn't get the points, but demonstrates academic capability, they can apply to one of two foundation courses: TAP or Liberties. The TAP foundation course is run in Trinity and has its own requirements, and a student is expected to achieve a certain minimum mark in order to be considered for a place on their desired course. In the Liberties programme, the students complete a FETAC-certified course and apply through the CAO for their course in Trinity. The modules on the Liberties programme are worth CAO points, just like the LC. As far as I'm aware, there's a similar foundation course for mature students in Plunkett College (I think).

- Once a TAP student is accepted to Trinity, they're entitled to some basic supports, and they're not instantly entitled to a local authority grant - they have to apply like everyone else. Firstly, they're entitled to free fees, and a waiver of the sport centre charge. They're given a very small bursary that comes from the same source as the student hardship fund, which means its value is dependent on how many people have applied, but it usually works out at about €120 per month. In cases of academic difficulty, they may be able to apply for a certain amount of grinds, but these are very few (the disability service also offers this service). Finally, they may be able to avail of essay-writing and maths-help workshops, much like the ones available to all students.

So, as you can see, TAP students get nothing handed to them. We get a small amount of assistance, but it in no way makes up for the disadvantage in Irish society that prevents many students from achieving their potential. I can only hope that TAP secures enough funding to extend their scope to other disadvantaged schools not currently recognised.

The bits I put in bold confuse me a little. Like I said earlier on in the thread, I know someone from my school who got the TAP programme, and did the foundation course in Trinity. If my numbers are correct (It's a couple of years ago so might be a bit off), the student was 80 points off the minimum requirement. We went to the same school, had the same teachers, had the same level of education.
Like I said I'm all for a lot of what HEAR/TAP does, I remember in my year DCU did a 2 week grinds course for HEAR students which I wasn't accepted for. I guess my parents would have had the money to get me grinds (if I wanted to do them), so the free grinds is a good thing to help those who wouldn't have the money.
I feel quite strongly about this because funnily enough the following year I wanted to do the course which the person I know is doing. I was 20 points short, so exceeded their score by 60 points in the leaving.
If I was offered the chance to do the foundation year and then be able to do that course I would have jumped at the chance, but because my parents earn too much I wasn't.
I do kind of feel they were getting in at reduced points? Or am I still missing something here?
Maybe I'm just jealous and bitter :pac:, but in a points race system it just seems a little unfair to me.

Just clarifying again, the points thing is the only thing that seems to be an issue with myself at the moment, but if I'm looking at it the wrong way maybe you can change my opinion!

TrollHammaren · 07-05-2011 3:20am

revz wrote: »

The bits I put in bold confuse me a little. Like I said earlier on in the thread, I know someone from my school who got the TAP programme, and did the foundation course in Trinity. If my numbers are correct (It's a couple of years ago so might be a bit off), the student was 80 points off the minimum requirement. We went to the same school, had the same teachers, had the same level of education.
Like I said I'm all for a lot of what HEAR/TAP does, I remember in my year DCU did a 2 week grinds course for HEAR students which I wasn't accepted for. I guess my parents would have had the money to get me grinds (if I wanted to do them), so the free grinds is a good thing to help those who wouldn't have the money.
I feel quite strongly about this because funnily enough the following year I wanted to do the course which the person I know is doing. I was 20 points short, so exceeded their score by 60 points in the leaving.
If I was offered the chance to do the foundation year and then be able to do that course I would have jumped at the chance, but because my parents earn too much I wasn't.
I do kind of feel they were getting in at reduced points? Or am I still missing something here?
Maybe I'm just jealous and bitter :pac:, but in a points race system it just seems a little unfair to me.

Just clarifying again, the points thing is the only thing that seems to be an issue with myself at the moment, but if I'm looking at it the wrong way maybe you can change my opinion!

There's no contradiction there - if a TAP student goes through the CAO they have to get the points. The foundation course is just a fairer alternative exam to the LC, and it's pretty comparable to the A Levels that are available in Ireland (as far as I know theres only one place in Ireland that offers A Levels). The Liberties one is harder again, and you do have to work for it.

The system isn't perfect and some people do get left out due to the need to draw a (what could be consider arbitrary) cut-off point for financial criteria. The rational is that you minimise the disparity as much as is possible to do so. You say that your parents could have afforded grids, but chances are your mate's parents couldn't, and whether you chose to avail of them or not isn't taken into account.

I can understand that it's probably quite a frustrating situation for you, but I genuinely believe it's a trifle better than how it would be were in not for the programme providing the opportunity for talented people who would not otherwise make it to college.

I'm sorry if I'm not very coherent - I had an exam today and pretty sleep deprived

Tragedy · 07-05-2011 4:28am

TrollHammaren wrote: »

We don't get in on reduced points, we don't get money thrown at us, and we don't get any exam accommodations unless registered with the disability service. There seems to be some confusion as to what the TAP programme is, and it's a distinct entity from the HEAR programme.

From the TAP website:

Prospective Students
TAP offers two access routes into Trinity College if you are a non-traditional student:

University Access Courses – for young adults and mature students
The Higher Education Access Route (HEAR) – for young adults only

- At entry level, TAP works in two ways. If a student in a designated disadvantaged school gets the points, they're eligible for TAP status. Each course has a requirement to allocate 15% of their places to "non-traditional" (mature, TAP, disability) students, and the TAP students are entitled to one of these places. If the student doesn't get the points, but demonstrates academic capability, they can apply to one of two foundation courses: TAP or Liberties.

What? You apply to TAP foundation course, OR HEAR entry. You don't do one and get the other if it doesn't work out.

HEAR(which is part of TAP, but I just call the Foundation course TAP as it's easier) does offer students entry on reduced points - it confirms this on both the TCD website and the HEAR website.

Once a TAP student is accepted to Trinity, they're entitled to some basic supports, and they're not instantly entitled to a local authority grant - they have to apply like everyone else. Firstly, they're entitled to free fees, and a waiver of the sport centre charge. They're given a very small bursary that comes from the same source as the student hardship fund, which means its value is dependent on how many people have applied, but it usually works out at about €120 per month. In cases of academic difficulty, they may be able to apply for a certain amount of grinds, but these are very few (the disability service also offers this service). Finally, they may be able to avail of essay-writing and maths-help workshops, much like the ones available to all students.

Entitlement isn't the same as being given a grant. I said HEAR/TAP students always seemed to automagically be entitled to the full top-up grant, of course they still have to apply for it.

For a TAP Ambassador of 4 years, you know **** all about it's entry requirements and eligibility to be quite honest.

Oh and Raedwald, the foundation course isn't to a JF level (and I've looked at the exam papers for the Arts modules). It makes zero sense for it to be the same difficulty as JF academically, otherwise why bother doing the foundation course?
It's about pass leaving cert level, but more focused on what your degree will require.

Liquorice · 07-05-2011 1:42pm

Kevin Denny of the Geary in UCD has actually been researching this stuff. He has a few working papers looking at third level access, socioeconomic disadvantage and the effects of second level school SES on third level access. The papers are online if you search for them, the basic conclusions drawn are that the abolition of fees did little to level the playing field at the level of entry to university because, generally, students attending low SES schools simply weren't attaining the grades needed to enter 3rd level.

Obviously his research is probably ideological in its own way but if anyone's interested

bhur · 07-05-2011 1:49pm

I suspect OP's position is not indicative of how other TCD student's feel. Perhaps he/she isnt getting on great at college having been spoonfed education all his/her life, and is performing poorly in comparison to the "poor lazy slobs"[sic]

Dear god am i glad i went to another uni....

El Siglo · 07-05-2011 2:02pm

bhur wrote: »

I suspect OP's position is not indicative of how other TCD student's feel. Perhaps he/she isnt getting on great at college having been spoonfed education all his/her life, and is performing poorly in comparison to the "poor lazy slobs"[sic]

Dear god am i glad i went to another uni....

The opinion of one poster is not that of an entire university and same could be said of any university in Ireland.

bhur · 07-05-2011 2:12pm

El Siglo wrote: »

The opinion of one poster is not that of an entire university and same could be said of any university in Ireland.

I agree with you on that point, and i guess many student of my own uni have expressed outrages statements too. But this is the stereotypical attitute of the trinners crowd, which is sad really, they dont have much to be proud of considering UCD is ranked higher in MBA terms, NUIG will soon have the biggest Engineering building in the country etc. etc.l

Fo Real · 07-05-2011 2:15pm

The sense of entitlement among some of you is outrageous. I don't accept the argument that if someone went to a shít school, they deserve a scholarship and reduced points. A smart student will do well whether he is in a private or public school. A teacher can't learn for you, only YOU can learn. Likewise, rich kids get sent to the Institute and automatically assume that it guarantees them a place in TCD. It is merely an attempt to deflect personal responsibilty for your own education.

What TAP represents for me is the creeping in of American-style "affirmative action", where positive discrimination (an oxymoron if I ever saw one) is encouraged to give poor people and minorities an unfair advantage in the world of education and employment. The situation is farcical in America, where kids feel under pressure to emphasise their "ethnic" heritage. So a middle class white kid will search his family tree back generations in the hope of finding a trace of a Jew or Latino somewhere down the line.

Trinity cannot maintain its current level of expenditure. The fact that it released these videos is evidence of that. In recent years we've seen the building of the new gym, the long room hub and the refurbishment of the Pav. I'd imagine the university is in serious debt. Bring back fees combined with a loan system. Scrap TAP and cut funding to the SU and 90% of societies. You pay for what you use. Don't expect the nanny state to fund your drinking for the next four years.

bradyle · 07-05-2011 2:41pm

bhur wrote: »

I agree with you on that point, and i guess many student of my own uni have expressed outrages statements too. But this is the stereotypical attitute of the trinners crowd, which is sad really, they dont have much to be proud of considering UCD is ranked higher in MBA terms, NUIG will soon have the biggest Engineering building in the country etc. etc.l

Eh the majority of people here argued that TAP is good and worthwhile and the majority of those are trinity students.

Oh and since when does bigger = better...dont insult my department...our Engineering department is the best in Ireland

tehjimmeh · 07-05-2011 3:04pm

bhur wrote: »

I agree with you on that point, and i guess many student of my own uni have expressed outrages statements too. But this is the stereotypical attitute of the trinners crowd, which is sad really, they dont have much to be proud of considering UCD is ranked higher in MBA terms, NUIG will soon have the biggest Engineering building in the country etc. etc.l

You can't give two examples, the second of which doesn't even relate to anything to be proud of in academic terms (the size of a building, really?), and state "etc. etc." and expect that to stand up as a reasonable argument for Trinity not having much to be proud about.

What are contained in the "etc. etc."? Please do go on.

bhur · 07-05-2011 3:22pm

tehjimmeh wrote: »

You can't give two examples, the second of which doesn't even relate to anything to be proud of in academic terms (the size of a building, really?), and state "etc. etc." and expect that to stand up as a reasonable argument for Trinity not having much to be proud about.

What are contained in the "etc. etc."? Please do go on.

Bigger building == Better facilities,

Hold on now, i aint knocking TCD, in fact il want to head there in 2 years time, i merely stated that each institution has its own merits and strengths, but feck off if you are of the thinking that TCD is the best in the country overall

theowen · 07-05-2011 3:43pm

Fo Real wrote: »

The sense of entitlement among some of you is outrageous. I don't accept the argument that if someone went to a shít school, they deserve a scholarship and reduced points. A smart student will do well whether he is in a private or public school. A teacher can't learn for you, only YOU can learn. Likewise, rich kids get sent to the Institute and automatically assume that it guarantees them a place in TCD. It is merely an attempt to deflect personal responsibilty for your own education.

What TAP represents for me is the creeping in of American-style "affirmative action", where positive discrimination (an oxymoron if I ever saw one) is encouraged to give poor people and minorities an unfair advantage in the world of education and employment. The situation is farcical in America, where kids feel under pressure to emphasise their "ethnic" heritage. So a middle class white kid will search his family tree back generations in the hope of finding a trace of a Jew or Latino somewhere down the line.

Trinity cannot maintain its current level of expenditure. The fact that it released these videos is evidence of that. In recent years we've seen the building of the new gym, the long room hub and the refurbishment of the Pav. I'd imagine the university is in serious debt. Bring back fees combined with a loan system. Scrap TAP and cut funding to the SU and 90% of societies. You pay for what you use. Don't expect the nanny state to fund your drinking for the next four years.

Someone doesn't get onto HEAR just because they went to a **** school. You have to meet 4 or so requirements. No family/or very little history of third level education. Little history of students progressing to third level etc etc. If someone grows up in an area of social deprivation and they've no role models to actually tell them they should go to college that's probably the reason they left school or did ****, not because they're an idiot or lazy. Likewise if someone does well in this environment why shouldn't they be given a small step up to make up for 18 years of disadvantage?

You'd also assume from your posts that TAP and HEAR students are taking the majority of places from normal students. They get 5% or so of places sure.

andrew · 07-05-2011 3:50pm

bhur wrote: »

Bigger building == Better facilities,

Well, that's mental logic

but feck off if you are of the thinking that TCD is the best in the country overall

In fairness though, it objectively is.

bhur · 07-05-2011 3:53pm

andrew wrote: »

Well, that's mental logic

In fairness though, it objectively is.

There we are again, off your trinity high horse and dont underestimate the investment NUIG is putting into its infrastructure.

Not true, i cant comment on all the courses, but i do know the MSC in finance there is a beauty.

andrew · 07-05-2011 4:04pm

bhur wrote: »

There we are again, off your trinity high horse and dont underestimate the investment NUIG is putting into its infrastructure.

Not true, i cant comment on all the courses, but i do know the MSC in finance there is a beauty.

Saying Trinity's better than NUIG is objective fact.

bhur · 07-05-2011 4:07pm

Educated reaction: A lot of debate over league tables and positioning and their validity

Being the Country-boy-middle-class-not-posh-enough-for-trinners-yokel I am: Oh darn! i bow down before you! here, have my wallet!

Trinity BEGGING for money

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