Green Diesel Fine?

vanillak · 17-03-2010 6:43pm #1

Whats the penalty for a first time a offence of running a CAR(not truck or van) on green diesel?
And is this true?iv heard that at some checkpoints only vans and lorrys are dipped and not cars

L1011 · 17-03-2010 6:49pm

Cars are sometimes dipped. The fine for personal or light commercial vehicles is up to €5k.

Also the fuel markers can stay in the tank for a number of fills of "clean" diesel after any use of marked gas oil.

rebel.ranter · 17-03-2010 7:03pm

They will dip cars too, it is not just commercial vehicles.

corktina · 17-03-2010 7:33pm

ive seen them dipping cars in the queue for the ferry!

The Nutty M · 17-03-2010 7:34pm

I've never seen them dipping a car at any checkpoint on the main roads I've been dipped at which is quite a few.The only place I've ever seen a car dipped was outside cattle marts where they were dipping everything.It's a case of luck though,get away with it for a while and you'll think it's great all the money you are saving,you could just be unlucky enough to be dipped some day where you least expect it.

Eric Cartman · 17-03-2010 7:38pm

if you can get away with it for long enough to save more than 5 grand then you might be ok, if your driving round dublin id imagine you could do it, ive only ever been dipped once , in galway

AARRRRGH · 17-03-2010 7:45pm

Ive never been dipped. Ive only ever seen them dip vans and trucks.
I thought they could take your car though.

Row · 17-03-2010 7:51pm

With the government pushing green cars...What about Green diesel...:D

afaik there are monitors which can tell if your using green diesel from the
exhaust gases....:eek:
I've driven around a half a million miles in diesels and have never been dipped...:(...I wonder what i would have saved in the difference....

shawnee · 17-03-2010 9:20pm

No , monitors don't exist just plain take a sample and yeah the customs are checking quite a bit at the moment. They do not take it quite as serious if it is a car much more serious if it is a commercial.;)

dirtydiesel · 17-03-2010 9:22pm

You might get away with using green diesel on paddys day!!!!!! everything is green today

pred racer · 17-03-2010 9:46pm

Row wrote: »

I've driven around a half a million miles in diesels and have never been dipped...:(...I wonder what i would have saved in the difference....

+1

the normal fine is 1270 euro (or whatever 1000 pounds is in euro)

Stinicker · 17-03-2010 9:54pm

Remember on Customs (The TV show) they just gave some fellow an on the spot fine and basically emptied his wallet of around €300 or €400, From my understanding is they don't really get tough unless it is your second or subsequent offence.

From what I know the dye is only an indicator and they then siphon out a sample and mix in another chemical which turns the diesel pinky red (or thats what they did on the TV show anyways!)

I can imagine alot of truckers probably have split tanks and get dipped white but are running on Green via a hidden tank or split tank which is filled some other way. I know a guy who'm they went and opened the injectors in his jeep (old banger) to see what he was really running on, but knowing the same fella it could be an elaborate wind up!

Ryan T · 17-03-2010 10:27pm

Remember on Customs (The TV show) they just gave some fellow an on the spot fine and basically emptied his wallet of around €300 or €400, From my understanding is they don't really get tough unless it is your second or subsequent offence.

That driver was a traveller of no fixed abode so they took what they could get as it would not be possible to track him later

Our man in Havana · 17-03-2010 10:40pm

It is standard practice to levy a penalty of circa €500 if the offender has no previous convictions. If caught a second time it will mean court and the prospect of a €5000 fine.

Ryan T · 17-03-2010 10:48pm

It is standard practice to levy a penalty of circa €500 if the offender has no previous convictions. If caught a second time it will mean court and the prospect of a €5000 fine.

Its a mandatory fine of €3k irrespective of first offence

Stinicker · 17-03-2010 10:50pm

Ryan T wrote: »

That driver was a traveller of no fixed abode so they took what they could get as it would not be possible to track him later

I suppose any person could claim that. Surely they could run the licence plate or tax disc for to get an address, or can you register and tax a car as "No fixed abode".

Bond-007 wrote: »

It is standard practice to levy a penalty of circa €500 if the offender has no previous convictions. If caught a second time it will mean court and the prospect of a €5000 fine.

Is it a criminal offence or classified as something minor like motor tax evasion? this country has a fairly stupid legal system and we should have misdemeanour's and felony's etc. to categorise each offence in terms of seriousness.

Ryan T · 17-03-2010 10:56pm

I can only tell you what the revenue officer in charge said on the programme an that was that they would have no chance of tracing him

746watts · 17-03-2010 10:56pm

Not worth doing, it's bad for your injectors anyway and you are likely to get an audit from the revenue boys (if you have a business linked to the car) on top of the fine etc.

I was dipped about every 6 weeks near Loughrea over a period of 8 months or so a few years ago (private car Passat I had). Pain in the arse but I had proper diesel in at all times.

Stinicker · 17-03-2010 11:02pm

746watts wrote: »

Not worth doing, it's bad for your injectors anyway and you are likely to get an audit from the revenue boys (if you have a business linked to the car) on top of the fine etc.

I was dipped about every 6 weeks near Loughrea over a period of 8 months or so a few years ago (private car Passat I had). Pain in the arse but I had proper diesel in at all times.

Surely the dye itself could have no physical effect on the injectors, now if you were burning Kerosene (Paraffin) that would burn out the injectors in no time due to its less lubricating properties. I have heard stories of fellows with trucks and cars up around the border who prefer to just burn the green as that way they know it is not contaminated with all the dye removal schemes and cutting of Diesel with various chemicals.

My understanding is/was that burning Green Diesel in a car made no difference apart from the obvious legal and tax related issues.

746watts · 17-03-2010 11:11pm

Stinicker wrote: »

Surely the dye itself could have no physical effect on the injectors, now if you were burning Kerosene (Paraffin) that would burn out the injectors in no time due to its less lubricating properties. I have heard stories of fellows with trucks and cars up around the border who prefer to just burn the green as that way they know it is not contaminated with all the dye removal schemes and cutting of Diesel with various chemicals.

My understanding is/was that burning Green Diesel in a car made no difference apart from the obvious legal and tax related issues.

Green diesel has a much higher sulphur content, the dye itself has no impact.

Our man in Havana · 17-03-2010 11:21pm

Stinicker wrote: »

Is it a criminal offence or classified as something minor like motor tax evasion? this country has a fairly stupid legal system and we should have misdemeanour's and felony's etc. to categorise each offence in terms of seriousness.

It is a serious criminal offence as far as the law is concerned.

The revenue are catching so many these days that by levying cash penalties they can keep the courts from getting clogged up. Court is typically reserved for serial offenders and those that refuse to pay the cash penalty.

Stinicker · 17-03-2010 11:23pm

746watts wrote: »

Green diesel has a much higher sulphur content, the dye itself has no impact.

Which with todays Modern Engines will quickly throw the toys out of the pram! Never knew that cool! I guess Tractors are exempt from the Emissions regulations, and with most Farmers driving older type Corollas and Jeeps I guess it is only on the rare occasion that Green Diesel gets the opportunity to screw with a Modern TDIi!

Fishtits · 18-03-2010 12:08am

746watts wrote: »

Green diesel has a much higher sulphur content, the dye itself has no impact.

Utter rubbish.

The dye (marker) is added post uplift, ie in Ireland. The base fuel is unmarked diesel.

Tractors are subject to EU emissions regs, their engines must comply with whatever reg is in place when they are manufactured.

It applies to all engines, including stationary engines such a gen sets, water pumps etc.

L1011 · 18-03-2010 12:16am

746watts wrote: »

Green diesel has a much higher sulphur content, the dye itself has no impact.

Not for a very long time it hasn't. Its road diesel + dye + a chemical marker thats much harder to scrub than the dye, that is all.

Armin_Tamzarian · 18-03-2010 12:18am

Ryan T wrote: »

Its a mandatory fine of €3k irrespective of first offence

No it's not.
I've known several people who've been caught and they've paid fines ranging from €300 - €1200.
If the car's an old banger customs are likely to accept a lower amount as if the fine's too high the owner will most likely just let them impound it.

Customs have also been known to negotiate.
They'll ask for say €1000 but will end up agreeing to take €600 if that's the most the culprit can come up with on the spot.

They're forever dipping around border towns but I've only encountered them dipping once down the country.

mossfort · 18-03-2010 12:43am

the green diesel has a lot more dirt in it than white , im forever changing filters in tractors and the diesel tank because of the amount of dirt in it.
the customs can test your exhaust gases to see what type of diesel your burning if they are in any doubt after dipping . and as was said the traveller got away with a 300 euro fine because he claimed no fixed abode .

Our man in Havana · 18-03-2010 12:45am

I have seen them dipping down around Kilkenny and Thurles. Both those are C&E bases.

Their prosecutions unit based in Bridge End in Donegal can and do send out penalty notices instead of prosecuting offenders. I have heard of people being offered penalties of €600-€1000 before going to court. Again this is a time saving measure as the C&E officers would have to attend court otherwise.

Esel · 18-03-2010 1:44am

The Nutty M wrote: »

The only place I've ever seen a car dipped was outside cattle marts.....

Yeah, they used to just look for the big streak of diesel down the side of the car....

ianobrien · 18-03-2010 9:52am

MYOB wrote: »

Not for a very long time it hasn't. Its road diesel + dye + a chemical marker thats much harder to scrub than the dye, that is all.

No it isn't

All "road" diesel sold here is Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) and has a Sulphur content of 50ppm max. The fuel is passed through a scrubber to remove excess sulphur, as the typical sulphur content of unscrubbed fuel is 500ppm (depending on source of crude oil used)

The "green diesel" doesn't pass through the scrubber, as it's not for road use (operating the scrubber's expensive). The dye (Solvent Blue 79) is added as it's just a visual marker.

The difference between the fuels is the Sulphur content and the colour. They are the same other than that. I spent some time working in a lab in an oil refinary, and the only way to be sure of which fuel you had was by measuring the Sulphur content via X-Ray Fluorescence.

The damage to engines happens when laundered fuel is burned. The usual method of removing the dye is an acid wash. The problem is that they never neutalise the acid totally (or even remove it totally) and this causes havoc to modern high pressure pumps etc. Also, the byproduct from the acid wash is harmful to the environment and gets dumped at random. The sulphur content isn't reduced by the acid wash so you'll get caught anyway.

Armin_Tamzarian · 18-03-2010 10:58am

mossfort wrote: »

and as was said the traveller got away with a 300 euro fine because he claimed no fixed abode .

You see, the 'traveller defence' can also be used by all the Northern drivers who get caught by customs with red/green diesel.
Much like speeding fines etc, if customs don't get money off them on the spot then they don't have much chance of recovering a fine unless they impound the vehicle, which is unwanted hassle for them.

Bearcat · 18-03-2010 11:38am

prob getting caught with the ag diesel is your now red flagged with the revenue who more often than not if you own a business will slap what they call a desk top audit on you.....if they find a hint of malparactice they'll do a full audit...audit in accountancy fees cost over 10k. Not worth it folks re the hassle factor....revenue can make your life a misery

Hoffmans · 18-03-2010 11:58am

theres advantages in running on the mgo its better quality than the whitewash and gives more power to the engine.. high performance tractors with 100k€ plus engines in them need the quality deisel mgo for performance .

L1011 · 18-03-2010 8:12pm

ianobrien wrote: »

No it isn't

All "road" diesel sold here is Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) and has a Sulphur content of 50ppm max. The fuel is passed through a scrubber to remove excess sulphur, as the typical sulphur content of unscrubbed fuel is 500ppm (depending on source of crude oil used)

The "green diesel" doesn't pass through the scrubber, as it's not for road use (operating the scrubber's expensive). The dye (Solvent Blue 79) is added as it's just a visual marker.

The difference between the fuels is the Sulphur content and the colour. They are the same other than that. I spent some time working in a lab in an oil refinary, and the only way to be sure of which fuel you had was by measuring the Sulphur content via X-Ray Fluorescence.

The damage to engines happens when laundered fuel is burned. The usual method of removing the dye is an acid wash. The problem is that they never neutalise the acid totally (or even remove it totally) and this causes havoc to modern high pressure pumps etc. Also, the byproduct from the acid wash is harmful to the environment and gets dumped at random. The sulphur content isn't reduced by the acid wash so you'll get caught anyway.

This is a country with one small refinery and very few import gantries - where, pray tell, is the sulphur scrubbing happening seeing as the diesel supplied to here is already sale-worthy? Add to that that we have a marker dye unused elsewhere and its quite clear its added after importation.

This isn't Norway, we don't have a "fuel industry", we have importers and retailers. Rather like our "motor industry", come to think of it.

paddysdream · 18-03-2010 8:29pm

as far as i know diesel dye is supplied by dowlings chemicals in tinryland co carlow
know a couple of lads who worked there and they delivered it all over the country as well as mixing it thru diesel on the premises
regarding tractor engines most modern ones are common rail and tier 3 compliant and are very fussy on fuel quality much more so than car engines

ianobrien · 19-03-2010 12:26am

MYOB wrote: »

This is a country with one small refinery and very few import gantries - where, pray tell, is the sulphur scrubbing happening seeing as the diesel supplied to here is already sale-worthy? Add to that that we have a marker dye unused elsewhere and its quite clear its added after importation.

This isn't Norway, we don't have a "fuel industry", we have importers and retailers. Rather like our "motor industry", come to think of it.

It's been a few years since I worked in Whitegate, but then they used scrub the diesel fuel. Production used hate us in QC when we failed a batch of diesel on high sulphur content.

I know some fuel distributors used buy both petrol and diesel from Whitegate and others used buy petrol only. Others used bring in all their fuels pre-blended. I'm not going to mention names on the Internet of what companies used buy what from Whitegate. It's probably all changed now anyway.

L1011 · 19-03-2010 1:31am

Doesn't change that the vast, vast majority of fuel in Ireland never passes through Whitegate at all.

Whitegate can process about 1/4 of the countries demand at peak. As I said, we've one small refinery and a limited number of gantries for pre-refined fuel in ports - there isn't the option to get less refined diesel from them and anyway, modern tractors are Euro III or Euro IV and would get just as poisoned by high sulphur diesel as a car.

Any physical "dirt" in MGO these days as someone mentioned earlier in the thread is down to ****e storage - some of the tanks I've seen it in in ports and agri coops look to be in atrocious conditions.

ianobrien · 19-03-2010 8:22am

Just to reinforce a point. The worst thing to burn is laundered diesel. Tha incomplete acid wash f**ks the pumps over time in modern diesels and revenue can still catch you through sulphur content.

Burning green diesel is fine in a vehicle that doesn't go on the road(it's illegal to use it on the road) but as MYOB pointed out, inappropriate storage can lead to problems and possible high water content

Just one other thing. The reason for the low sulphur levels in road diesel is to reduce acid rain. The sulphur is burned in the engine, producing SO2. This goes into the atmosphere where it reacts with water (thanks to UV light) to form H2SO3 and H2SO4, sulphurus and sulphuric acid.

roadm1ncer · 08-03-2011 4:23pm

Page 16 of the Sligo Weekender details court hearing of marked fuel found in suppliers tanks mixed in.

Doesn't make a difference if its the same or not, still wouldn't buy any fuel from such suppliers.

Run_to_da_hills · 08-03-2011 4:28pm

Now that the Green party is finished we should be allowed use their diesel.

Mar4ix · 08-03-2011 4:28pm

ha ha .. got a tip from one guy...
need use two tanks, regular fill half with proper diesel, and second tank with green one, and feed engine from second tank... original tank just keep with clean petrol station diesel. sorted

mikemac · 08-03-2011 4:37pm

Seen a few checkpoints with dipping in Tipperary, I believe they have a base in Thurles
Two of the checkpoints outside marts

You could save money sure in the short term but it depends how long you get away with it. One fine and there goes your savings. Plus you may be worrying as you drive around

One local station sells it but the pumps are locked, you have to go in and talk to the owner and he knows most of his customers

As well as the fine, a good chance you'll be getting letters from Revenue about an audit as well if caught

Fey! · 08-03-2011 4:38pm

Mar4ix wrote: »

ha ha .. got a tip from one guy...
need use two tanks, regular fill half with proper diesel, and second tank with green one, and feed engine from second tank... original tank just keep with clean petrol station diesel. sorted

How many miles would you have to drive to break even on that particular scam?

I thought that green diesel caused the exhaust emissions to be much blacker due to the burning of the dye, and that that was one of the indicators to the authorities.

Mar4ix · 08-03-2011 4:44pm

Fey! wrote: »

How many miles would you have to drive to break even on that particular scam?

I thought that green diesel caused the exhaust emissions to be much blacker due to the burning of the dye, and that that was one of the indicators to the authorities.

i am not using diesel car....petrol only, just were speaking about that green diesel in other forum. I never liked any diesel car.... sound and smell is terrible, no point of saving those pennies, more less fine are brand new cars.. but only for short time.

keithclancy · 08-03-2011 4:45pm

roadm1ncer wrote: »

Page 16 of the Sligo Weekender details court hearing of marked fuel found in suppliers tanks mixed in.

Doesn't make a difference if its the same or not, still wouldn't buy any fuel from such suppliers.

CJhaughey · 08-03-2011 4:46pm

Mar4ix wrote: »

ha ha .. got a tip from one guy...
need use two tanks, regular fill half with proper diesel, and second tank with green one, and feed engine from second tank... original tank just keep with clean petrol station diesel. sorted

Yep but any hint of this and they will remove your injector lines at the fuel filter and check there.
Don't be fooled Customs have seen all the scams and are wise to them.
Its one thing to have green diesel or traces of green, a whole other thing to have a setup to be avoiding getting caught.
My BIL was pulled over and checked and they found traces of the marker in his fuel, he was able to show that the bulk delivery he had just got had been contaminated by the supplier and was able to avoid prosecution.
They undid his fuel lines at the side of the road to check that he was running the same fuel.

Mar4ix · 08-03-2011 4:52pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

Yep but any hint of this and they will remove your injector lines at the fuel filter and check there.
Don't be fooled Customs have seen all the scams and are wise to them.
Its one thing to have green diesel or traces of green, a whole other thing to have a setup to be avoiding getting caught.
My BIL was pulled over and checked and they found traces of the marker in his fuel, he was able to show that the bulk delivery he had just got had been contaminated by the supplier and was able to avoid prosecution.
They undid his fuel lines at the side of the road to check that he was running the same fuel.

if they undo diesel lines, they let air in to system , what cause diesel high pressure pump damage (a specially opel diesel engines are very sensitive), veeery expensive stuff . I do not drive diesel car, and i don't give a .... you know yourself

.

keithclancy · 08-03-2011 5:09pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

Yep but any hint of this and they will remove your injector lines at the fuel filter and check there.
Don't be fooled Customs have seen all the scams and are wise to them.
Its one thing to have green diesel or traces of green, a whole other thing to have a setup to be avoiding getting caught.
My BIL was pulled over and checked and they found traces of the marker in his fuel, he was able to show that the bulk delivery he had just got had been contaminated by the supplier and was able to avoid prosecution.
They undid his fuel lines at the side of the road to check that he was running the same fuel.

Wow .. nice .. If that was my car i'd be calling a tow truck, or would be trying to fashion some sort of vacuum device out of a bicycle pump.

Having an Airlock doesnt damage the fuel pump, its fairly normal to have to turn the engine over a few times anyway to get it going after you bleed the fuel line

david.... · 10-05-2011 5:41pm

i just read this and i find it very intreasting iv never used green myself

but i know several people using it on jeeps , cavaliers , vento's, liteace vans etc, and never gave them trouble and they have all got away with it aswell bar one who got an on the spot fine of 250 euros in his transit.

im wondering would green destroy anything in a 05 1.9 tdi passat?
and how much would you save per fill?

Matt Simis · 10-05-2011 5:57pm

david.... wrote: »

and how much would you save per fill?

Lol, dont you do maths?
(Price of diesel times the tank size) minus (Price of Agri Diesel times the tank size)

Stinicker · 10-05-2011 6:24pm

david.... wrote: »

i just read this and i find it very intreasting iv never used green myself

but i know several people using it on jeeps , cavaliers , vento's, liteace vans etc, and never gave them trouble and they have all got away with it aswell bar one who got an on the spot fine of 250 euros in his transit.

im wondering would green destroy anything in a 05 1.9 tdi passat?
and how much would you save per fill?

Agricultural Diesel is the exact same fuel as Road Diesel and is compliant with all Environmental Regulations as new Tractors have to comply with emissions targets like cars, the difference is the dye and the reduction in price. It is no different to ordinary diesel, the dangerous fuel is washed fuel which is illegally laundered Green Diesel with the dye removed using sulphuric acid, this stuff will cause you the world of problems and you'd be better off on Green or White than this because normal Diesel will not be contaminated.

Agri Diesel ranges from 90 to 95c a litre multiplied by 60 litres for a Passat would be €54 for a full tank compared to Road Diesel @ €1.48/litre = €89 a fill, you'd be making an illegal saving of €35 a tank or 39%

A fuel tank costs about €300 to €400 but it allows for greater savings per litre compared to the pump as you usually get a reduction for bulk purchases and it allows you to hedge your fuel, my parents are driving around at €1.15/litre for the last 8 months thanks to bulk purchasing and fuel hedging. Alternatively you could buy the Diesel by the five gallon drum full in your local oil depot.

What you need to ask yourself would you consider it worth it? The cost savings compared to the risks of getting caught, the illegality and risk of prosecution.

I don't believe anyone should use green diesel it if at all possible however with the punitive levels of taxation and if a person was to the wall to pay for his home, feed his family and keep his head above water then I'd have alot more understanding than some person using it in a BMW or a 2011 Toyota Landcruiser simply because they are too cheap to buy the fuel after paying €50k+ for the car, the poor chap in a diesel 1997 carina going to work in his minimum wage job getting screwed by the Government for everything then I could understand his plight.

shawnee · 10-05-2011 6:36pm

Have heard a few stories of guys/girls ending up with green diesel in their tanks without knowing it. Recently a friend serviced a car for a lady and showed me the diesel that he had drained from it and it had a very strong tinge of green. She swears that she buys all her diesel at the pumps but some of these operators are selling this stuff mixed. There are a few places have opened up around here selling diesel only, no credit cards and are merely renting the place. I had a problem with dodgy diesel in my Mondeo and the mechanic put it down to the quality of the diesel.:o

Green Diesel Fine?

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