Alien Abduction

King Mob wrote: »

And I've yet to see a single claim that withstood any level of scrutiny or provided anything that would convince any rational person.

Then contrary to what you would have us believe, you have failed to do much if any research into the subject.

Even when the U.S Air Force conducted investigations back in the 50's under Project Blue Book, they could not categorise and rationalise all events. approximately 5% remained unidentified. any reasercer, or skeptic worth their salt knows this fact. So by your above statement, you have actually shown how little you know on the subject.

which is not altogether surprising, because its very hard to understand or learn anything when you are instantly going to deny any evidence presented to you.

King Mob wrote: »

But you're drifting away from the point.
The idea of sleep paralysis being the root of some abduction stories are only used in stories where it is a plausible (typically the most plausible) explanation.
Claiming that it is used else where, or that it is the only explantion skeptics provide is a dishonest strawman.

i think you like the word "strawman".

King Mob wrote: »

Again, I'm finding some of your posts hilariously hypocritical.
Your claiming that anyone who doesn't agree with you are somehow mentally deficient while you are desperately trying to argue that UFO claimants aren't and that skeptics are unwilling to consider other explanations, while you are doing the same.

Not at all, I know pleanty of great skeptics, who I regularly talk with. They are ALWAYS willing to entertain the possibility of something Being beyond their understanding, and let the evidence lead them in an unbiased way to whatever conclusion it will.

Anyway, as you are entrenched in your non belief, there is no point attempting to offer any further logic, or explanation to you. I am sure in times past there were many like you, who absolutely would not accept the Earth was anything but flat, and called anyone who dared open their mind and speculate otherwise a heretic. Eventually their sky fell, and their world collapsed, as I am sure it will be one day for many like you when our infantile race finally matures.

Enjoy the remainder of the dark ages, while they last

I think he means aliens in crafts or just aliens.
Instead of UFO's which can include man made projects.

Ninjamonkey wrote: »

http://blog.ufo-blog.com/2007/12/general-wilfried-de-brouwer-belgium.html

http://www.ghosttheory.com/2011/07/27/belgian-ufo-photo-a-hoax

Ninjamonkey wrote: »

Interesting to be sure, but It does not discredit the data from the F.16's , the testimony from the officers of the Royal Belgian Air Force , the police officers, or the data from the radar analysis, and Air Traffic Controllers.

The fact remains that an unknown aircraft penetrated Belgian airspace, and although both F.16's at one point achieved a lock on the target, it manouvred at speeds which were not possible using conventioal aircraft technology.

the rate of change of altitude in such a short time would have killed any occupant.

This still remains to this day, an unexplained event. Which has never been answered to satisfaction.

There has been theories that anti-gravity has been discovered for a long time now.
Theres guys all over the world apparently geting raided for carrying out experiments in that area of science.And having machinery taken away.
Wether thats true i cant be sure.But i have seen some interesting videos of bottles and rocks molding together under electricity or some other force and floating inside an empty tube.

Its posible that if you can create a gravitational field around a craft you could travel at insane speed and turn at right angles speeding up time inside the gravitational field allowing it to appear(or is) like it is going faster outside.
I forget the theory behind it, but to it when i read inot it, i was satisfied it could well be a good explanation for these types of sightings.
Aka government secret projects.

Some even thought humans from the future!

Torakx wrote: »

There has been theories that anti-gravity has been discovered for a long time now.
Theres guys all over the world apparently geting raided for carrying out experiments in that area of science.And having machinery taken away.
Wether thats true i cant be sure.But i have seen some interesting videos of bottles and rocks molding together under electricity or some other force and floating inside an empty tube.

Its posible that if you can create a gravitational field around a craft you could travel at insane speed and turn at right angles speeding up time inside the gravitational field allowing it to appear(or is) like it is going faster outside.
I forget the theory behind it, but to it when i read inot it, i was satisfied it could well be a good explanation for these types of sightings.
Aka government secret projects.

Some even thought humans from the future!

Oh, and you might like to take a look at this link.

http://starburstfound.org/electrograviticsblog/


I wont mention it any further, as its off topic, but maybe we should start another conspiracy thread on Electrogravitic technology as used in todays modern military aircraft. But to be honest, its really not much of a conspiracy these days.

I have actually personally had a B2 spirit fly over my head, at less than 250 ft. I must say , for such a powerful aircraft it was very,very quiet indeed.

Ninjamonkey wrote: »

Look at the "blur" around the wing of the B2 Spirit. And before the debunkers point out that its simply the aircraft going through the sound barrier, and this is simply a "Prandtl-Glauert singularity". look at the direction of the cone. A supersonic shock collar extends from the nose of the aircraft (as shown below). I have personally seen many aircraft flying close to , or breaking the sound barrier. This one appears to be extending around the wing and body, in reverse to the direction of travel.

Or it could be some other effect besides the cone of vapour during a sonic boom. (Which is not called Prandtl-Glauert signularity.)
Like say the haze that appears when an aircraft makes a manoeuvre that creates a pocket of low pressure.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22221147@N02/3934431639/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22221147@N02/3934431187/
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4111/4982079281_ce17160908_z.jpg
http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.9792544.4953/flat,550x550,075,f.jpg

The only two options aren't the poorly represented one skeptics might provide or magic/aliens/unknown technology.

Ninjamonkey wrote: »

Well of course the singularity is theoretical, and can never occur, with infinite pressure.

But it's not what breaking the sound barrier, or the cone of vapour around a plane is called.

Ninjamonkey wrote: »

But yes of course i am open minded enough to accept your point. But in this picture the aircraft appears to be in straight and level flight.

And it doesn't appear to be using any new fantastic technology. But you won't accept that reason as evidence that the technology is involved.
You can't tell that the plane is in straight and level flight because it is a still picture. It could have been taken just after or just before the plane made a sharp turn/dive/climb/roll. It could have been speeding up sharply, which coupled with the odd design of the B2 results in the collection of vapour even in straight level flight.

In fact the picture could very much show the plane going supersonic just that due to the angle from which the photo is taken as well as the timing could make it seem like the the cone is not forming at the nose.

Or it could be the fact that due to the odd aerodynamics of the plane, it's just not how the cone forms on it when it goes supersonic.
There's plenty of examples of the cone forming and not producing the clean, perfect examples you pointed to:
http://www.emmitsburg.net/humor/pictures/2007/Image31.jpg
http://www.etsu.edu/physics/ignace/physics/BA_Sonic_Boom_opt.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/63/1630495.jpg/sr=1

Ninjamonkey wrote: »

And no suggestion here of aliens, simply technology moving forward.

Yes but it's a suggestion based on the same style of logic.
"I don't know, therefore aliens/magic/anti-gravity....."

King Mob wrote: »

Oh well, I suppose it's my fault for assuming that you'd be open to other explanations that don't fit into your worldview :rolleyes:

ROFL, what could YOU possibly know about being open to other explanations that don't fit into your worldview .....:)

Anyway, I looked at all the pictures you provided, they may be a slightly irregular shape, but all of the vapour cones, as we shall call them, still expand away from the direction of flight ..

I suppose because its a still picture, you will likely point out that the B2 may have been breaking the sound barrier while travelling in a reverse derection.

Ho Hum ...

King Mob wrote: »

Enough to know that your half assed condescending dismissals of explanations you don't like seem to be the exact same ones that people seem to think mean old skeptics use against your ideas

I like it , a little emotion ....Methinks I may be pushing buttons.. :mad::mad::mad:

dont take it personally, you are a great adversary;)

King Mob wrote: »

Yes, and viewed from certain directions at certain times could make it seem that it is doing the opposite.

Eh, actually No , I have SEEN it myself, from many angles, it looks the same.

King Mob wrote: »

The first example for instance seems to have it's cone coming both from the front and the back at almost the same time.

Yes, this again is quite normal, and the cone is still expanding away from the direction of travel. This is normal as the pressure waves compress. The reason there are 2 cones, is because of the way the airflow is interacting with the fuselage, and the elevators/tailplane. Both are generating the shockwave. You can see this in many wind tunnel simulations.

To better illustrate my example, you will notice from the images below, the way the supersonic shockwave extends away from the direction of flight, as the pressure waves move back across the aircraft.

King Mob wrote: »

And none of this addresses any of my points.

I know that the cone expands away from the direction of flight. However as the example showed, as certain angles and at certain times and taking the picture out of context, it can appear that cone is doing something else.

But again, I gave you a list of other possibilities that you've ignored because they don't fit your preferred conclusion and you can't address them.

well, I do apologise if I have misread your post, I did believe after looking at the provided links, and reading your opinion on the cone being viewed from another angle may make it look like its not extending frm the direction fo flight.

I thought I addressed your points. usual banter aside, I honestly am open to any serious discussion on the matter, possibly not in this thrread as it may be off topic. However, my main point was the cone shown in the pic of the B2, is actually NOT generated by supersonic flight. Its wrong. It does not extend from the direction fo flight, in fact it extends from the rear over the fuselage.

Also given what I will say is the "fact", as It is now well documented, and also admitted by the USAF, that the B2 charges the leading edge of the wing, to extremely high voltages, It would appear this "cone" is not a vapour cone at all.

I am not suggesting anything alien, or mystical, or magical. simply the applied physics of a known theory of extending the wing area, through ionic charge of the surrounding air. Not exactly antigravity, but shall we say , a slight boost to the thrust to weight ratio

I would suggest checking out " the Hunt for Zero Point", by a respected Janes Aviation journalist called Nick Cook. Believe me, there is nothing at all alien related in there, but it does talk about experiments the Germans were working on during WWII, which were taken back to the U.S after the war, with the scientists, under project Paper Clip.

Much of the testing was done, at the White Sands missile Range, which runs over 3,200 Sq mi of New Mexico. Yes, i am a skeptic at heart, and I believe that reading this book, also points to a logical and plausible explanation to another fabled event that happened somewhere around New Mexico, in July 1947.

Experiments which were ongoing, with esteemed scientists, such as Werner Von Braun himself, were alegedly carried out from that testing site, with craft that may have been misinterpreted, by the average person, as something unknown, had they stumbled across wreckage strewn across a ranch.

But back to the point, I do apologise, had I misread or misinterpreted your posts. I simply wanted to draw attention to the B2 picture, which many people say is simply the B2 breaking the sound barrier.

argosy2006 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj4IbXxIMc8

What are these

1.A standard Vapor trail
2&3. A meteor
4.Couds
5.Chinese Lanterns
6.Chinese Lanterns with attached flashing LED's
7 A Snowmobile
8.Sun eflecting on ice/Snowmobile / reflection on Camera Prism
9. the Planet Venus,with camera prism relection
10 . our old friend the Chinese Lanterns again
11 Multiple aircraft on the ILS approach to an airport
12 Fuzzy picture of something - possibly nose material stuck on camera lens
13 Standard Rocket or missile
14 Airliner at night
15 . International space station out of focus
16 meteor
17 meteor
18 meteor
Unfortunately, nothing there strikes me as unusual, and believe me, if i did I would be the first to champion it.

King Mob wrote: »

But again, this may not be the case because of the angle and timing of the photo. You have not addressed this point.

Furthermore I pointed to the examples of planes pulling vapour while they are manoeuvring which you have not addressed.

And then I suggested the possibility that the plane can generate a cloud of vapour just by virtue of it's aerodynamics, which you have also ignored.

It being a sonic boom is not the only alternative explanation and you need to address these other, more likely one before you can claim it as evidence of this technology you believe in (which seems to be backtracked from your original implication of anti gravity).

Points taken, I have to conceed I cannot determine what the exact manoevres of the aircraft were at the given time, that is impossible. I do not believe it would generate such a cloud of "vapour" by virtue of its aerodynamics. I have seen a B2 in flight, and this did not occur. - Admittedly, only first hand observation of a B2 in operation is the evidence here, and maybe if I watched enough B2's for long enough, ... well, i dont know... we will have to leave that as an unknown.

Lastly, i was not claiming this as evidence, but an indication, that something is not as it should be as you will see if you check out this picture, many journalists mis-interpret this as a sonic shockwave.

I think your argument holds water, and we will agree with your hyposthesis on this occasion. I stand down

I do however believe there has been significant advances in the field of electrogravitics, of course I cannot bear any proof, and I am not asking you to believe, or agree with me. It is an interesting field of research, and one which I KNOW for a fact, has much research ongoing.

Please do not ask me to prove how i know, as I cannot. - inasmuch, as I am not at liberty to answer the question.

King Mob wrote: »

And unfortunatly, that looks exactly like you are just making it up or have bought into some fiction that other people made up.
And since that is the more likely scenario...

Yes, indeed. Anyway, I have said what I have said, given my opinions, and they are just that . I accept your points of view, and at the end of the day, it was an enjoyable discussion, one for which I thank you.