Dublin school expels 4 pupils for 'disparaging Facebook comments'

Jester252 · 17-05-2012 3:48pm

Schools do have a very hard stance on bullying
Maybe the expulsion could have been more to do with the people involved.
If the school didn't expel them they the school would have not followed through with its bullying policy and question would have been raised about the fact they were not expelled was due to the fact one of the parents was a TD. Suspension is not a real punishment IMO.

Dudess · 17-05-2012 3:48pm

lividduck wrote: »

Being expelled from a private school is hardly "ruining their future prospects", or do only the privlidged few have "future prospects"?

I'd assume the very same concern re their futures would be expressed if it were a state school?

MarkyTheLips · 17-05-2012 3:48pm

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

I'd understand that if joining fb at the age 12 effected your eduction or effected the school but what business of the schools is it if a person wants to join fb?
Surely punishment or closing of an account is down to their parents decision if they find not obeying the T&C of facebook an issue.

You have to be over 18 to drink and smoke but yet there is Young teenagers do it anyway.
The school cant expel pupils for drinking and smoking outside of school.

Imo what a person does outside of school grounds is their or their parents business unless it's affecting their eduction or affecting the school.

I see where you're coming from with regard to gargle and smokes, but perhaps the point is that online bullying IS affecting the (reputation of the) school and the education of the pupils adversely.

stovelid · 17-05-2012 3:50pm

Thing is, if you chanced across a Facebook page set up by kids saying two of their teachers are banging each other, you'd just think it was a joke, albeit a dumb one.

I'm not saying I'd like it but I'd hardly consider it some massive assassination of character and I still don't think it's as bad as bullying your peers, that is, kids that are at the mercy of their peers re: acceptance and status and a bit more emotionally vulnerable.

Not saying they don't deserve to be punished or that they are nice kids, of course.

AskMyChocolate · 17-05-2012 3:50pm

lividduck wrote: »

Being expelled from a private school is hardly "ruining their future prospects", or do only the privlidged few have "future prospects"?

When did Oatlands become a private school? It never was in my day.

MagicSean · 17-05-2012 3:50pm

The stuff they alleged had to potential to result in a person losing his family job and freedom as well as leaving them open to investigation by the HSE and Gardaí. Once something is on the internet it's there forever. It's interesting how people were in arms when RTE did something similar to a priest but in this case people are prepared to say they've learned their lesson.

Dudess · 17-05-2012 3:53pm

MagicSean wrote: »

The stuff they alleged had to potential to result in a person losing his family job and freedom as well as leaving them open to investigation by the HSE and Gardaí. Once something is on the internet it's there forever. It's interesting how people were in arms when RTE did something similar to a priest but in this case people are prepared to say they've learned their lesson.

Oh right, so reading between the lines there were allegations of the worst kind? Thought that might be the case all right and that it wouldn't have just been for malicious but harmless comments, because an expulsion for that would be a bridge too far.

davet82 · 17-05-2012 3:54pm

MagicSean wrote: »

It's interesting how people were in arms when RTE did something similar to a priest but in this case people are prepared to say they've learned their lesson.

unless RTE is run by children, i dont see the comparison

jayteecork · 17-05-2012 3:54pm

MagicSean wrote: »

The stuff they alleged had to potential to result in a person losing his family job and freedom as well as leaving them open to investigation by the HSE and Gardaí. Once something is on the internet it's there forever. It's interesting how people were in arms when RTE did something similar to a priest but in this case people are prepared to say they've learned their lesson.

What were the exact allegations if you don't mind me asking?

SunnyDub1 · 17-05-2012 3:55pm

MarkyTheLips wrote: »

I see where you're coming from with regard to gargle and smokes, but perhaps the point is that online bullying IS affecting the (reputation of the) school and the education of the pupils adversely.

It's affecting the reputation of the school cause of 4 students...
Why should others have to be punished or told what to do because of it ?
Punish the 4 involved but leave everyone else out of it and let their parents take care of what they join or do outside of school.

It's like having 4 students drunk in school, the 4 students get expelled and then the other students are told if they seen drunk out side of school they will also be expelled

Wossack · 17-05-2012 3:55pm

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

When did Oatlands become a private school? It never was in my day.

it still isnt

not sure why people are banging on like it is

Cossax · 17-05-2012 3:59pm

MagicSean wrote: »

The stuff they alleged had to potential to result in a person losing his family job and freedom as well as leaving them open to investigation by the HSE and Gardaí. Once something is on the internet it's there forever. It's interesting how people were in arms when RTE did something similar to a priest but in this case people are prepared to say they've learned their lesson.

No and frankly I think someone saying that might have an agenda.

1. We don't know exactly what was said - at least I've haven't seen it posted yet. In generalities, comparing abuse allegations to what goes on between two teachers/disparaging a teacher's work FFS.
2. It was some school kids, not journalists working for the national broadcaster.
3. It probably had a fairly small audience on FB rather than millions on tv.

Dr.Strange · 17-05-2012 4:06pm

I haven't seen the comments or know what they wrote.

But I think it could be potentially very unfair on the teachers to have the kids remain in the school.

frank reynolds · 17-05-2012 4:18pm

whats stupid is that the teachers didnt think that it would appear in the papers maybe? surely if the allegations were on fb, with a small audience, then they would have realised that by reacting by expelling the students in such a headline grabbing way (particularly that one of them is a TD's son) that it would be a media storm.

maybe their confidence just proves how untrue the allegations are? but sure as fook, everyone in the country will now know what was written about them and the audience will only grow.

the whole thing is a circus really - who cares???

Dr.Strange · 17-05-2012 4:23pm

frank reynolds wrote: »

whats stupid is that the teachers didnt think that it would appear in the papers maybe? surely if the allegations were on fb, with a small audience, then they would have realised that by reacting by expelling the students in such a headline grabbing way (particularly that one of them is a TD's son) that it would be a media storm.

maybe their confidence just proves how untrue the allegations are? but sure as fook, everyone in the country will now know what was written about them and the audience will only grow.

the whole thing is a circus really - who cares???

If you had nasty sh!t written about you on the Internet I would imagine you would care?

frank reynolds · 17-05-2012 4:26pm

Dr.Strange wrote: »

If you had nasty sh!t written about you on the Internet I would imagine you would care?

but i wouldnt be stupid enough to turn it into a media frenzy by expelling the students - one of which is a TD's son. i'd stop and think about it.

teachers have an awful habit of getting too personally affected by their students, and if you're not able for it, then you're in the wrong job.

facebook is facebook, so everyone knows to take it with a pinch of salt. i wouldnt be too fussed about it if there was nasty stuff written about me online - there has been in the past, and you just shrug it off.

dont play the victim. its words written down on some sh!te page made by teenage muppets. teachers should be well able to handle situations like this without it getting out of control and into the media - and ultimately they will pay an even BIGGER price for it now that it has - a huge national audience, and inevitably it will come out in the media whatever was alleged to have taken place between the adulterous teachers.

it'll probably turn out to be true

neemish · 17-05-2012 4:31pm

People are making it sound like the school said "Oh, you posted something nasty about teachers so we're expelling you all"
It doesn't work like that - the School would have had to go through other types of discipline first, and try to work out a solution. The BOM of a School isn't just randomly involved in discipline - it only comes to them in the worst case scenario.
The BOM had to listen to all the facts of the case and then vote on it. They have all the facts! And we only have what is being reported in the papers and online.
It must have been very serious to come to this

MarkyTheLips · 17-05-2012 4:31pm

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

It's affecting the reputation of the school cause of 4 students...
Why should others have to be punished or told what to do because of it ?
Punish the 4 involved but leave everyone else out of it and let their parents take care of what they join or do outside of school.

It's like having 4 students drunk in school, the 4 students get expelled and then the other students are told if they seen drunk out side of school they will also be expelled

Am I reading the article wrong?

The school banning FB for under 13s is a different school from the one expelling the 4 pupils yeah?

Kosseegan · 17-05-2012 4:32pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

It is very hard to expel someone in a public school currently, it takes months of abuse from a student, correct and calculated documentation of these actions by a principal and then a student will be passed over to the board of management who decides whether to expel or not. If the board is in the wrong it will be turned over fairly quickly by a competent solicitor.

Im guessing these students had a previous record.

It is a public school. Maybe they will appeal and get back in? Teachers are far too thin-skinned these days. In my day they believed lies added to their reputations.

Helix · 17-05-2012 4:36pm

foxyboxer wrote: »

Not harsh at all.

What they need to realise/now realise is that what you say on social media should be viewed as saying the same things to a crowd of people with a microphone.

they shouldnt be expelled for saying things with a crowd to a microphone either though, as long as it's not on school property or while representing the school at an external event

Dr.Strange · 17-05-2012 4:41pm

frank reynolds wrote: »

of course i would, but i wouldnt be stupid enough to turn it into a media frenzy by expelling the students - one of which is a TD's son. i'd stop and think about it.

It shouldn't make a difference who's son is involved.

frank reynolds wrote: »

teachers have an awful habit of getting too personally affected by their students, and if you're not able for it, then you're in the wrong job.

So a requirement to be a teacher should be the ability to accept abuse & cyber bullying?

frank reynolds wrote: »

facebook is facebook, so everyone knows to take it with a pinch of salt. i wouldnt be too fussed about it if there was nasty stuff written about me online - there has been in the past, and you just shrug it off.

It's good that you were able to shrug it off.
The point should be that those responsible are punished.

frank reynolds wrote: »

dont play the victim. its words written down on some sh!te page made by teenage muppets. teachers should be well able to handle situations like this without it getting out of control and into the media - and ultimately they will pay an even BIGGER price for it now that it has - a huge national audience, and inevitably it will come out in the media whatever was alleged to have taken place between the adulterous teachers.

it'll probably turn out to be true

I'm not defending Teachers for the sake of it.

But there should be a clear zero tolerance policy on all forms of bullying.

DoesNotCompute · 17-05-2012 4:47pm

foxyboxer wrote: »

Not harsh at all.

What they need to realise/now realise is that what you say on social media should be viewed as saying the same things to a crowd of people with a microphone.

Here, here. This incident might also teach them a life lesson - if you put stuff on the internet, expect potential employers to find out when they google your name.

omgitsthelazor · 17-05-2012 4:55pm

Anybody else think that far too much is being made of cyber bullying these days? The people casting judgment on it tend to be completely unaware of internet culture and take whats said online at face value. Ignorance and power is a very dangerous thing. Not to mention my disgust in all this is the "victim" is apparently a teacher rather than I'm sure the many students feeling victimised.

I have no idea if what these pupils said warranted expulsion but its an absolute myth that cyber bullying is an equivalent problem to old fashioned bullying. As someone who suffered from the latter kind of bullying I can say for a fact that I felt far more empowered online to retort, stand my ground and even get even than I would face to face. A lot of the intimidation factor is lost through text.
My great fear in all this is the kids getting back at the bullies through the one medium they can will be outed by unaware principals and presumed as being the actual bullies.

I'm not advocating what goes on online but it is a far more even ground for everyone to handle themselves than face to face is, if people start blowing their horn about tackling the bullies because of what people say on facebook or twitter then I cannot even begin to describe how far off base they are.

Helix · 17-05-2012 4:59pm

Dr.Strange wrote: »

So a requirement to be a teacher should be the ability to accept abuse & cyber bullying?

absolutely not, but if it happens outside school in the students' own homes rather than on school computers, then it should become a legal matter pursued through proper channels rather than kicking the kids out of school

failing that, kids need to be made sign a contract with their parents when signing up for a school which outlines offenses that will be deemed punishable, even if taking place outside school, such as what we've seen in this case

antodeco · 17-05-2012 5:01pm

That was my old school, i finished in 99. It was ****e then and full of scrotes and it still seems that way.

Blatter · 17-05-2012 5:05pm

Expelling them is a load of bollocks.

Many kids don't even realise the impact of posting that type of shit on facebook, the dangers of the internet are obvious to them in many regards.

I do agree that they needed to be punished harshly, but not expelled. The 20 day suspension was more than enough, if not a tad excessive in itself.

Dr.Strange · 17-05-2012 5:06pm

Helix wrote: »

absolutely not, but if it happens outside school in the students' own homes rather than on school computers, then it should become a legal matter pursued through proper channels rather than kicking the kids out of school

It's not really fair on the Teachers involved for the people to remain in the school though.

If the same thing happened in a work situation, where people were slagging off their colleagues via FaceBook, would it not have to be dealt with by means of disciplinary action, once it was brought to the management's attention?

Dr.Strange · 17-05-2012 5:09pm

Helix wrote: »

failing that, kids need to be made sign a contract with their parents when signing up for a school which outlines offenses that will be deemed punishable, even if taking place outside school, such as what we've seen in this case

I would imagine that there is a Code of Conduct for the school, but I'm not really sure if this is signed or how it is made clear to students.

But what you say is a good idea.

omgitsthelazor · 17-05-2012 5:10pm

Dr.Strange wrote: »

It's not really fair on the Teachers involved for the people to remain in the school though.

If the same thing happened in a work situation, where people were slagging off their colleagues via FaceBook, would it not have to be dealt with by means of disciplinary action, once it was brought to the management's attention?

It's hardly comparable given that you're dealing with a school and children.

Ensti · 17-05-2012 5:12pm

TBH, I think expulsion was a little over the top. Something similar happened to a teacher in a school I know and the school did feck all.

Dr.Strange · 17-05-2012 5:14pm

omgitsthelazor wrote: »

It's hardly comparable given that you're dealing with a school and children.

'Children' might be a stretching it a bit, but I see what you mean.

Helix · 17-05-2012 5:20pm

Dr.Strange wrote: »

If the same thing happened in a work situation, where people were slagging off their colleagues via FaceBook, would it not have to be dealt with by means of disciplinary action, once it was brought to the management's attention?

i would disagree with that though. i dont think people should be disciplined based on something that happened outside the remit of the disciplining body

BigBrownBear · 17-05-2012 5:20pm

If they weren't from a posh school(I know its not fee paying) but from a school in a disadvantaged area....Loads on here, who sympathize with them, would be calling them skangers/scumbags who deserve to be expelled.

Dr.Strange · 17-05-2012 5:23pm

Helix wrote: »

i would disagree with that though. i dont think people should be disciplined based on something that happened outside the remit of the disciplining body

But if it affects the working/learning relationship between colleagues or teachers/students, well then surely action must be taken by that body.

TeddyTedson · 17-05-2012 5:26pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

You forgot to mention if it was 16/32/64GB.

I left that part out purposefully

Anyways,
The whole thing seems to have been blown out of proportion.
If these kids were on their lunch break talking this sort of nonsense about their teacher (as I'm sure most of us did to a degree) and another teacher over heard them would the same action be taken? I very much doubt it.
As others have said kids will always be doing this when they're in school. They grow out of it with maturity, well most.
A few days suspension would have been plenty with an apology to the two teacher would have sufficed.
Will they be able to claim the dole yet? :rolleyes:

SerialComplaint · 17-05-2012 5:27pm

BigBrownBear wrote: »

If they weren't from a posh school(I know its not fee paying) but from a school in a disadvantaged area....Loads on here, who sympathize with them, would be calling them skangers/scumbags who deserve to be expelled.

Outlands is far from posh, despite its location. Most of the kids who live near it go up the road to Blackrock College.

Dr.Strange wrote: »

I would imagine that there is a Code of Conduct for the school, but I'm not really sure if this is signed or how it is made clear to students.

But what you say is a good idea.

Unless the school had a Code of Conduct in place to set limits on how pupils should behave on Facebook etc, I think the BoM is on very dodgy ground. This decision could well be appealed or injuncted.

Battered Mars Bar · 17-05-2012 5:31pm

Not harsh enough, they should be brought before a court and charge with libel, sexual harressment or something...anything really as long as they get 6 months prison for it. That'll learn them.

Canis Lupus · 17-05-2012 7:00pm

TeddyTedson wrote: »

I left that part out purposefully

Anyways,
The whole thing seems to have been blown out of proportion.
If these kids were on their lunch break talking this sort of nonsense about their teacher (as I'm sure most of us did to a degree) and another teacher over heard them would the same action be taken? I very much doubt it.
As others have said kids will always be doing this when they're in school. They grow out of it with maturity, well most.
A few days suspension would have been plenty with an apology to the two teacher would have sufficed.
Will they be able to claim the dole yet? :rolleyes:

Well the difference there is that it's between the kids and teacher that overheard.

What people are slowly learning from kids like these, the morons inciting riots in England also on facebook and that twitter fellow who posted racist comments is that once stuff goes into the public domain it's a completely different ball game and rightly so.

kincsem · 17-05-2012 7:08pm

My alma mater.

BattleCorp · 17-05-2012 7:32pm

problemchimp wrote: »

I take the points about bullying, but is this a bullying issue? No other pupils were bullied and let's face it, we all had stories/rumours about teachers when we where at school. Suspension? yes. Expulsion? no.

I'll be shot for this but teachers are people too you know :rolleyes: They have the same rights as the rest of us and therefore it was a bullying issue.

Helix · 17-05-2012 7:34pm

Dr.Strange wrote: »

But if it affects the working/learning relationship between colleagues or teachers/students, well then surely action must be taken by that body.

the teacher would be within their rights not to want them in their class im sure

Helix · 17-05-2012 7:35pm

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

they should be brought before a court and charge with libel, sexual harressment or something

i agree

however they should not be expelled. its a case for the courts, not for the school to take their law into their own hands

Caseywhale · 17-05-2012 7:38pm

dark crystal wrote: »

Depends on what exactly was written, but online bullying shouldn't be tolerated either against students or teachers, imo.

Setting up a specific page to target these teachers was an especially stupid and malicious thing to do anyway.

Seems its OK on boards though. The stuff said about teachers that i've read on boards :eek:

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-05-2012 7:38pm

why are the parents appealing instead off making their kids take responsibility for their actions.
madness !

MagicSean · 17-05-2012 7:44pm

Helix wrote: »

i agree

however they should not be expelled. its a case for the courts, not for the school to take their law into their own hands

Of course its up to the school. They hace a responsibility to preserve a learning environment for the kids who aren't dickheads.

Reese Vast Bathhouse wrote: »

why are the parents appealing instead off making their kids take responsibility for their actions.
madness !

Because it has to be an adult I reckon

BattleCorp · 17-05-2012 7:47pm

MagicSean wrote: »

Of course its up to the school. They hace a responsibility to preserve a learning environment for the kids who aren't dickheads.

Not only that, but the School has a legal obligation to look after the Safety, Health and Welfare of their employees (the teachers).

titchy · 17-05-2012 7:57pm

Plus we arent talking about 'kids' here at 5th year they are all probably 17 coming up on 18 ...young adults not kids

PseudoFamous · 17-05-2012 7:58pm

I know students who were pretty much tortured in school, and that barely resulted in suspensions. I sincerely doubt that how these teachers were treated validated expulsion of four students.

Also, 40 other students were given detention for simply liking the page, which is outrageous. According to a friend of mine in Oatlands, the page in question was just "Oatlands College Memes", and so wasn't directly set up to slander the teachers, and this reaction is ridiculous for the situation.

Helix · 17-05-2012 8:10pm

MagicSean wrote: »

Of course its up to the school. They hace a responsibility to preserve a learning environment for the kids who aren't dickheads.

if they're dickheads in school, during school hours or while officially representing the school, then i agree

outside that, the school has absolutely no jurisdiction and it shouldve been taken up in the courts

Avatarr · 17-05-2012 8:11pm

but i wouldnt be stupid enough to turn it into a media frenzy by expelling the students - one of which is a TD's son. i'd stop and think about it.

I really dont think one of the students being a TD's son was a consideration, do you? nor should it have been. You cannot side step the issue, just because you fear media reporting. What message would that send to both bully's/non bully's within the school.

Dublin school expels 4 pupils for 'disparaging Facebook comments'

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