Mass Effect 3: The Ending(s) [ Spoilers ]

_CreeD_ · 11-03-2012 8:41pm #1

Mod Warning

This thread contains spoilers about the ending of Mass Effect 3. Continue reading at your own peril....

I really think people are focusing too much on getting a 'perfect' ending. It's a role playing game! Play Shephard as you would like your character to be not always worrying about what cut scene you're going to have at the end. The beauty of this game ultimately has been that you will have an experience all the way through that reflects your personality as you played (whether what was really yours or one you decided to be). Don't get pissed off that you made X decision in ME1/2 that led to Y dying, or not helping you etc. just live with it and move on knowing that the universe you are in now actually does a great job of reflecting everything you have done so far. It's yours

, I don't know of any other RPG that has taken this aspect so far, the fact that it's stressing so many people out is testament to this. Basically you can't get it wrong, you can have different outcomes but they will reflect your in game persona from all 3 amazingly well.

Zero-Cool · 11-03-2012 10:38pm

Jaysus, there is an online petition to change the ending. I'm only 12 hours in and have no intention of finishing it anytime soon but a lot of people complaining about it. Maybe a new thread should be started to talk about spoilers and the ending like was suggested already?

Herrick · 11-03-2012 11:07pm

sheehy83 wrote: »

Jaysus, there is an online petition to change the ending. I'm only 12 hours in and have no intention of finishing it anytime soon but a lot of people complaining about it. Maybe a new thread should be started to talk about spoilers and the ending like was suggested already?

I haven't played ME3 yet, but have put so much into 1 and 2.

I can honestly say this series has been my most enjoyable gaming experience to date and will probably never be topped.

For me, this series has played more like a hybrid of a brilliant book and film. It didn't even feel like a game. The stories and plot-lines (even side missions) actually made me grow attached to certain characters and their fates.

But from what I've read about the endings to ME3, has made my stomach sick.

Zillah · 11-03-2012 11:24pm

_CreeD_ wrote: »

I really think people are focusing too much on getting a 'perfect' ending. It's a role playing game! Play Shephard as you would like your character to be not always worrying about what cut scene you're going to have at the end. The beauty of this game ultimately has been that you will have an experience all the way through that reflects your personality as you played (whether what was really yours or one you decided to be). Don't get pissed off that you made X decision in ME1/2 that led to Y dying, or not helping you etc. just live with it and move on knowing that the universe you are in now actually does a great job of reflecting everything you have done so far. It's yours , I don't know of any other RPG that has taken this aspect so far, the fact that it's stressing so many people out is testament to this. Basically you can't get it wrong, you can have different outcomes but they will reflect your in game persona from all 3 amazingly well.

This is all well and good, but the ending in 3 is so nonsensical and clashes so much with the tone and theme of the rest of the series that is genuinely spoils the whole experience a bit. I'm going to hazard a guess that you haven't finished it yet. It "does a great job of reflecting everything you have done so far" is exactly what is so great about the Mass Effect series, and what is so horribly wrong with the ending.

Regarding the value of playing this one without the others...you can play it, and can get a summary of the events of the last two games online to make sense of it all, but really you should carry one character all the way through for the best experience. Other characters follow you along for the entire trilogy and you see them develop and grow and some times they die, and it all means so much more because they've been with you so long. You can play 3 without playing 1 and 2, but you shouldn't, it would be a big waste.

Herrick · 12-03-2012 12:21am

Herrick wrote: »

I haven't played ME3 yet, but have put so much into 1 and 2.

I can honestly say this series has been my most enjoyable gaming experience to date and will probably never be topped.

For me, this series has played more like a hybrid of a brilliant book and film. It didn't even feel like a game. The stories and plot-lines (even side missions) actually made me grow attached to certain characters and their fates.
But from what I've read about the endings to ME3, has made my stomach sick.

Now that I think about it, I'm totally convinced the ending was set up like this, to allow EA to release a ton of DLC to get "proper" endings. When you think about it, most fans probaly will buy it after all the time they have invested over all three games.

ferike1 · 12-03-2012 12:23am

Ending reminded me of Asimov's Foundation and the Earth

_CreeD_ · 12-03-2012 1:16am

Zillah wrote: »

This is all well and good, but the ending in 3 is so nonsensical and clashes so much with the tone and theme of the rest of the series that is genuinely spoils the whole experience a bit. I'm going to hazard a guess that you haven't finished it yet. It "does a great job of reflecting everything you have done so far" is exactly what is so great about the Mass Effect series, and what is so horribly wrong with the ending.

Regarding the value of playing this one without the others...you can play it, and can get a summary of the events of the last two games online to make sense of it all, but really you should carry one character all the way through for the best experience. Other characters follow you along for the entire trilogy and you see them develop and grow and some times they die, and it all means so much more because they've been with you so long. You can play 3 without playing 1 and 2, but you shouldn't, it would be a big waste.

And that guess would be wrong, I finished it last night and felt it was very fitting. I disagree on the tone of the ending being bad, it's unexpected yes but not outside the overall tone of the game or of your character.

In fact I liked the fact that this one thing is you and you alone, it's like the universe goes quiet for a moment. Your ultimate choices all lead to an end to the reaper threat, the options of course are all for what you want a hypothetical future to be...it (or your survival) has absolutely no impact from then on, it's like you get a chance to write your epitaph (and has some have put it, your legend). What were you expecting, flags waving, ships clashing, you walking out with trumpets blaring for medals and tea? Kinda cliched don't ya think?

.

bizmark · 12-03-2012 5:19am

i really dont know wtf the ending was about because seriously i feel cheated

Clegg · 12-03-2012 5:48am

Completed ME 3 yesterday and it's probably the best game I'll play all year. Simply outstanding.

I have a massive problem with the endings though. Bioware spent 3 games developing a galactic civilization between different species. We were introduced to so many different species. Through the codex we could learn about different cultures and societies too.

They also spent 3 games developing the characters in your crew. Their likes/dislilkes, personal relationships between Shepard and the crew. So it's no wonder I have a problem with the endings that basically invalidate 3 games worth of character development/world building.

I won't talk about Space Jesus Shepard as thats just too silly. In ME 3 all the Mass Relays are destroyed and every species are isolated from each other. Congrats Bioware, you've just destroyed the galactic economy. Those characters you've met on the Normandy over the last 3 games? You'll never see them again either thanks to this games ending. We had to save the Quarian homeworld in ME 3. This is actually a storyline continued throughout all 3 games. It is rendered meaningless as the mass relays are now destroyed and the Quarians can't get home. With all 3 endings, choice is taken away from the player. Billions die, species are left stranded on Earth with no hope of return and the Normandy has crashed on a jungle planet. Everything you've done over the course of the 3 games is invalidated.It is truly horrific writing.

ferike1 · 12-03-2012 9:01am

bizmark wrote: »

i really dont know wtf the ending was about because seriously i feel cheated

Like I said, read Asimov's foundation series. Ending is pretty damn similar to that.

Mr E · 12-03-2012 9:14am

Discussion about the endings has been split away from the main thread.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 12-03-2012 9:27am

now i haven't played me3 as after me2 I've next to no interest in the gameplay, but I kinda like the ending

leaving aside for a second any plotholes or "it just doesn't make sense"

I quite like the end of galactic civilisation angle. it's the god damn reapers for god damns sake, you don't take them on and "win" in any honest sense of the word the only thing you can do is lose as best you can. Any kind of happy ending where the alliance is saved, kittens stay kittens forever and everybody gets their own pet asian schoolgirl just wouldn't have made sense and would have been an unbelievable cop out to the masturbatory wants of the fans.
Yes the galactic economy has disintegrated, galactic civilisation has crumbled and possibly entire civilisations will perish as they fail to adapt but life (literally) goes on for billions more, billions the reapers would have wiped out. Everyone is now roughly where they would have been if the reapers had won, cut off from each other.. no mass relays so no long range space travel but the crucial point is the reapers are gone.. this time when everybody rebuilds (however long it takes) there won't be any reaper threat waiting to break them down again, they're finally free to explore how far they can go as species without having the clock reset every couple of milliena (or however long it was).
That's a good thing and it was worth fighting for.

ferike1 · 12-03-2012 9:35am

I don't mind the choices but the fact there is little discussion of the repercussions of your choices up to then is a bit of a let down. As for the Asimov angle, anyone agree/disagree?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 12-03-2012 9:38am

dunno about asimov but someone was giving out to me yesterday that it was a rip off of the stargate sg1 ori ending, and the dakaara device

degrassinoel · 12-03-2012 11:50am

Is it sad that a game could make me feel such an incredible range of emotions?
I was near tears in every dream sequence, and the game pushed me past that at the end. Not ashamed to say it, I think the synthesis ending was fking brilliant, though i am absoluetly gutted about a lot of the decisions i had to make, especially the last one.

ferike1 · 12-03-2012 2:07pm

It was foundation's edge sorry. The main character has to make a choice between technology, galactic symbiosis and something else (kind of hard to explain without reading the books)

Nody · 12-03-2012 2:45pm

ferike1 wrote: »

It was foundation's edge sorry. The main character has to make a choice between technology, galactic symbiosis and something else (kind of hard to explain without reading the books)

The person has been guided to a time when there's three choices (below is spoiler of the choice in the book):

1) Stick to the original foundation plan - The plan is overlooked by the second foundation on Terminus that never left; they are experts in Math etc. and can ensure that the variation is minimized and the foundation plan is stuck to and maintained to build the second galatical empire with in 1000 years. They would then become the new elite once the new Empire was created.

2) Have the foundation break free - Instead of sticking to the master plan the foundation worlds would go off and create their own future for good or bad as a new small empire like the once they have taken over in the previous hundreds of years. This is done as the foundation realize that there is a second foundation and were it is located and don't want to be manipulated any more.

3) Gaia option - All people, plants, worlds etc. become part of one single uni mind. All people, items and worlds are interconnected; the individuality is greatly removed as all can think/locate memories of others etc.

This was setup by the robots that created this future for humans to decide which future they want by pushing the foundation to overreach early when things hanged in balance.

Zillah · 12-03-2012 2:55pm

We can stop with the spoiler tags now, right? The whole thread is a spoiler.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

]you don't take them on and "win" in any honest sense of the word the only thing you can do is lose as best you can. Any kind of happy ending where the alliance is saved, kittens stay kittens forever and everybody gets their own pet asian schoolgirl just wouldn't have made sense and would have been an unbelievable cop out to the masturbatory wants of the fans.

Why? Because you say so? Shepard spends the entire trilogy being told he can't do things and then he does them anyway, he spends the entire series telling people that the reapers are coming and that we're gonna work together to stop them. It is not an unreasonable expectation that we'd work together and stop the reapers without destroying galactic civilisation. Believe it or not but a large percentage of players would find an ending where Shepard wasn't dead or permanently cut-off from all his friends to be perfectly reasonable and satisfying.

That said, I wouldn't mind a dark ending if it made sense or didn't come across and sheer stupidity and bad writing.

I'm really enjoying the multiplayer though. I feel like I shouldn't, because those resources could have gone into making an ending that made sense. Grr.

_CreeD_ · 12-03-2012 3:47pm

I think something is being missed here in regards to the Mass Relays being destroyed. In ME1 Sovereign states quite clearly that they created the Mass Relays (and the Citadel) to make sure that all life would develop in a predictable way as part of the Cycle - Relays would be found, civilisations would use them to expand, meet and find the Citadel etc. The Citadel itself would be maintained by the keepers. All of this was designed to hand the universe to the emerging races on a plate, so that they wouldn't question or develop their own means of long range travel and also would come to rely on a system that was ultimately under Reaper control. Destroying the relays was an important part of destroying the cycle, the Catalyst was removing what it saw as a major part of their influence in the cycle of development and destruction. Would it have been easier to accept and ending with it not doing so, sure. But if we are too look at it from the point of view of a synthetic unemotional intelligence it was part of essentially deleting itself from the universe and truly letting the current races look after themselves from now on.

Now we also know that the Protheans had just about unlocked Mass Relay tech (the conduit to the Citadel from ME1) so we know it's in the cards for the current races to develop on their own.

So the way I interpret the ending It's not the end of Galactic civilisation, just a pause.

Edit:
Also, since this has been mentioned a number of times, Shep was not cut off from all of his companions...they were (mostly) there on earth. And since the Normandy wasn't using a relay, just std. FTL, to escape the blastwave they're still within remaining travel distance (and from the timeline just a few minutes away).

Venom · 12-03-2012 4:29pm

Zillah wrote: »

We can stop with the spoiler tags now, right? The whole thread is a spoiler.

Why? Because you say so? Shepard spends the entire trilogy being told he can't do things and then he does them anyway, he spends the entire series telling people that the reapers are coming and that we're gonna work together to stop them. It is not an unreasonable expectation that we'd work together and stop the reapers without destroying galactic civilisation. Believe it or not but a large percentage of players would find an ending where Shepard wasn't dead or permanently cut-off from all his friends to be perfectly reasonable and satisfying.

That said, I wouldn't mind a dark ending if it made sense or didn't come across and sheer stupidity and bad writing.

I'm really enjoying the multiplayer though. I feel like I shouldn't, because those resources could have gone into making an ending that made sense. Grr.

I don't think its even a case of Sheppard dying if such an event was handled right like the fates of some of the game characters but more the fact of the stupid

Reaper controlling kid/entity

that's introduced out of ****ing nowhere in the last 10 minutes of the game

The whole

"were destroying you to prevent you making stupid decisions that will destroy you"

is just a pathetic piece of story telling and when some of the writers involved in the game go out of there way with tweets stating they hand no part in the ending you know there is a problem in Bioware or to be honest EA.

ferike1 · 12-03-2012 4:33pm

Nice to see someone else has read the foundation books. It was years ago to be fair for me!
Shame that the choices we made up to then were sort of arbitrary.

bizmark · 12-03-2012 5:48pm

ferike1 wrote: »

Like I said, read Asimov's foundation series. Ending is pretty damn similar to that.

I wasn't play asimovs foundation 3 though i was playing mass effect 3 a game i put 30 hours into and a combined maybe 120 over the last few years and there's no other way to say it this ending is a massive kick in the balls. Every thing you fight for is gone every one you know is gone im fairly sure tali and garrus were killed off screen by a ****ing reaper which pissed me off it boiled down to "glactic butt plug guys stick it in to the citidal anus it will do something!" which was wakeing up child god to tell us all ai based life forms will wipe out organic based life forms even though theres a AI standing right there with me the bloody geth are outside fighting on our side the only ai based life killing organics is the one child god unleased all this could of been solved if he looked out the fecking window and had a moment of self reflection .

The whole ai vrs organic premise of the ending is bizarre during the game its the ai/synthetic life which came across as the most likable EDI is by far the most interesting character shes funny shows no hint of anything but wanting to help shes as human as any of the other people on the ship even being in love with joker in the end which the humans had no issue with this relationship either.
Then theres legion who i was oddly proud of for his sacrifice of the 3 deaths in the game his is the only one that ment anything his story and that of the geth was the only story in the game i was invested in so much that after seeing how they were treated and how they were still being viewed i seriously considered letting them wipe out the quarians but in the end the geth decided to work together with their "creators" rather than hold it against them theres nothing in the whole side story of the geth that shows them as future murder bots which diminished the end even more.

On top of that the reapers were just used wrong its not scary to see 2 km tall insect starships walk around in the back when theres 7000 of them its much much better to have 1 or 2 run around with their intimidating voices seeming invincible they didnt even talk to us once in the whole game all they do is blare a horn was no harbinger to tell us we are doomed no nothing i dont understand this oversight.

in the end it feels like the equiv of watching say star trek and the end episode is every federation ship warp drives randomly popping off and explodeing picard/who ever jumping into a god machine and dieing because v0v why not all civilization ceseing to exist the decisions you seen for the last 120 episodes not just no longer mattering but never really mattering at all as the ending takes into account nothing that happened and we are ment to feel better about it because "well guys the borg arent here now so i guess thats ok right!"

Bleh i feel so cheated on this ending damages my whole over arching opinion of the series

_CreeD_ · 12-03-2012 6:03pm

bizmark wrote: »

.....

in the end it feels like the equiv of watching say star trek and the end episode is every federation ship warp drives randomly popping off and explodeing picard/who ever jumping into a god machine and dieing because v0v why not all civilization ceseing to exist all decisions you seen for the last 120 episodes not just no longer mattering but never really mattering at all because the ending takes into account nothing that happened and we are ment to feel better about it because "well guys the borg arent here now so i guess thats ok right!"

Bleh i feel so cheated on this ending damages my whole over arching opinion of the series

Calm down...breathe....recover coherence

I think there are some decent points in there, still deciphering.

chrislad · 12-03-2012 6:11pm

While I don't have any massive issues with the ending (and truth be told, there really is nothing to prevent Shepard from being alive, even with the synthesis ending), I have more of an issue with the lack of closure.

Garrus, Liara, Tali - just f'ed off somewhere? Seriously? No closure on them or with Wrex, Grunt or any characters other than EDI, Joker and Ashley (who is a sore point, as I spurned 3 advances (Liara, English Chick and Reporter) to stick with her from ME1 and all I got was a hangover scene with her!)

What is bugging me is the last image from the game, and I quote....

Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat. Now you can continue to build that legend through further gameplay and downloadable content

Unless it's free, and I barely got 23 hours of the game compared to ME1 and ME2 and I did everything, I will not be impressed. I'll probably buy it, but I won't be happy about it!

Zillah · 12-03-2012 6:15pm

_CreeD_ wrote: »

I think something is being missed here in regards to the Mass Relays being destroyed. In ME1 Sovereign states quite clearly that they created the Mass Relays (and the Citadel) to make sure that all life would develop in a predictable way as part of the Cycle - Relays would be found, civilisations would use them to expand, meet and find the Citadel etc. The Citadel itself would be maintained by the keepers. All of this was designed to hand the universe to the emerging races on a plate, so that they wouldn't question or develop their own means of long range travel and also would come to rely on a system that was ultimately under Reaper control. Destroying the relays was an important part of destroying the cycle, the Catalyst was removing what it saw as a major part of their influence in the cycle of development and destruction. Would it have been easier to accept and ending with it not doing so, sure. But if we are too look at it from the point of view of a synthetic unemotional intelligence it was part of essentially deleting itself from the universe and truly letting the current races look after themselves from now on.

Now we also know that the Protheans had just about unlocked Mass Relay tech (the conduit to the Citadel from ME1) so we know it's in the cards for the current races to develop on their own.

So the way I interpret the ending It's not the end of Galactic civilisation, just a pause.

These are all nice in-game ways that could manage to rationalise some of the events at the end of the story. It doesn't change the fact that 98% of players thought the ending was terrible and should have been different.

Anyway, with the reapers either dead, merged or controlled there is no cycle any more, so leaving the relays in place doesn't matter.

Also, since this has been mentioned a number of times, Shep was not cut off from all of his companions...they were (mostly) there on earth. And since the Normandy wasn't using a relay, just std. FTL, to escape the blastwave they're still within remaining travel distance (and from the timeline just a few minutes away).

They land on a jungle planet that is not Earth, which mean they reached another solar system, which means they used a relay. The ambiguity of why the hell the normandy was making a relay jump, how your party got on board and where the hell they ended up is just another item in the list of stupid things at the end of Mass Effect 3.

bizmark · 12-03-2012 6:23pm

_CreeD_ wrote: »

Calm down...breathe....recover coherence I think there are some decent points in there, still deciphering.

I tryed to clean it up but im not the most naturaly coherent guy in the world

AnCapaillMor · 12-03-2012 7:50pm

Venom wrote: »

I don't think its even a case of Sheppard dying if such an event was handled right like the fates of some of the game characters but more the fact of the stupid
Reaper controlling kid/entity
that's introduced out of ****ing nowhere in the last 10 minutes of the game

The DLC dude mentions

something being before and behind the reapers and nothing more was said on it[\spoilers]

Loved the game, there seemed to be more main story related missions than the others. however the end pissed me off.

Yeah didn't like the end, at the end i thought i was finishing infamous 2 again. Really liked the rest of the game but the end just pissed me off.

The tali thing pissed me off too, after 2 i was hoping they'd get back their homeworld which they did and we'd finally see a maskless quarian, the picture was a copout, it felt like an after thought. Alright here's the finished product, then some nervous guy puts up his hand mentioning tali, they fire him and then try and find the cheapest and most halfass way to sort it out

LostBoy101 · 12-03-2012 8:56pm

The most weirdest ending to a great game as

it doesn't matter what you choose they both blow up reapers and ****

but I really enjoyed the series and if Bioware ever release something like this again I will definitely buy it.

_CreeD_ · 12-03-2012 9:04pm

Zillah wrote: »

T
They land on a jungle planet that is not Earth, which mean they reached another solar system, which means they used a relay. The ambiguity of why the hell the normandy was making a relay jump, how your party got on board and where the hell they ended up is just another item in the list of stupid things at the end of Mass Effect 3.

Actually, Nope. Relays are between large areas, clusters not between solar systems. It's all over the game, you use a relay to get to X cluster and then FTL between solar systems within that cluster. They simply crashed on another planet in another solar system of the Local cluster.
This is getting pedantic now, and I'm not trying to use it to undermine your other points but it backs up my point that a lot of the angst over the endings is down to ignoring some aspects of the gaming universe (rather than outright hating the intended concept).

Temptamperu · 12-03-2012 9:37pm

It gave an end to all the stories I had built up over the last few years and did it very well, for me anyway. I cant see how else it could of going but it tied everything up nicely again for me.

I cured the Genophage, I killed all the quarians (by accident - Tali commited suicide) but in fairness they where the ones who started the war I united everyone and then sacrificed myself so no-one would need to be wiped out ever again.
Sure the relays are gone but theres a planet with a human an asari and an AI so hey maybe start a new world where people work together instead of it all being about who has the biggest vioce or army.

Herrick · 12-03-2012 10:47pm

Rumor doing the rounds that the "endings" may in fact be Shepard under indoctrination :eek:

Just a theory from the Bioware forums but would be very interesting if true.

chrislad · 12-03-2012 11:07pm

I think the only thing that people will agree on is that DLC will continue the story past the ending, and while people will complain, I don't remember there being a big furore when Fallout 3 did it. Either way, as a trilogy as a whole, I can't say I was disappointed. The ending wasn't fantastic, but it did end the overall arc of the story, I'm just saddened by the lack of closure given to other aspects of the game - secondary squadmates, what happened to the planet that you spent the whole game trying to save after the Reapers went away etc.

BlitzKrieg · 12-03-2012 11:08pm

just finished it and while I saw people mentioning Asimov's Foundation series another sci fi jumped into my head when the kid at the end showed up.

The anime Gurren Langenn which has pretty much the same reveal

All life that evolves will naturally destroy not only itself but the universe so one race creates a system to contain all evolving (spiral) races and in the end that whole race appears as a small somewhat diminutive being to the protagonist and explains all this to them. But Langann did two things ME3 doesnt do. It very much laid the ground work for this plotline quite clearly halfway through the series and it has also the best protagonist response to such a scenario (WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE ARE? *PUNCH*)

I'm gathering my thoughts on ME3 and its ending. I think the mistake was ME2. Rating the three games in the end I still think Mass Effect 2 is the better game and ME3 is second. And what makes ME2 better is what makes ME3 weaker. Characters characters characters. So much of ME2 was dedicated to character arcs and it is something that firstly has never really been done to such a level in a video game and secondly it changed what mass effect was about.

Mass effect 3 feels like a sequel to 1 and not a sequel to 2.

I'll add more thoughts as I think about this more.

But on it being an awful ending. I went with the synthasis ending and it sort of makes sense, how people get where they are doesnt (normandy in FTL), but destroying the gates would be less relevent not that everybody has been *super evolved* they are now better then the race that built the gates so people will get reconnected in no time. Though I do remember one of the logs in this game saying any gate destroyed would wipe out every planet in its solar system. But I guess the explosion from all the gates was changed into fairy dust turning them into kryptonite rather then burning them in the fires of thermonuclear explosion.

Btw isnt the Citadel meant to be f*cking huge? on the galaxy map it dwarves every other planet and is around the size of our sun, yet it sits over earth no bother???

But the ending wasnt perfect, the choices are so abstract from events and really you've answered it already by the two main events in the game prior (the genophage issue/Geth issue are pretty much the same choices though at least the genophage one didnt pull some magical third option out of its ass) so really if you've made the quarrens and geth kiss up and cured the genophage then you know there is really only one option. The child reaper thing was a waste of space and just raises more questions and it choosing the form of the child was very uhmm *contactish* personnally I'd prefer if it was the kid but it was harbinger inside so it could be a bit more p*ssed at shepherd or at least have some emotion about the events. The kid was just lifeless exposition. You are the alien god who has just met the first organic life to break your cycle how do you feel about this?

Speaking of Harbinger, did his role in ME2 and in Arrival just ruin this? He had become the defacto Reaper leader had personnally had verbal pissing matches with Shepherd and revealed in this b*tched about him to the other reapers in this one. so the idea of the reapers just being some machines in the *cycle* just seems downright odd. At least Sovereign was given a reason for being a dick. Also the whole plot to 2 again, the Prometheans were the collectors, that was the big reveal but here we are told every race is gathered up and turned into a reaper so there should be a reaper created from all the prometheans (harbinger? Sovereign?) I guess it's harbinger cause he could control all the collectors which I assume are just the husk equivalent for prometheans.

man I'm rambling.

ferike1 · 12-03-2012 11:27pm

Gurrenn Lagann is awesome. I guess they took inspiration from many different series.

Jester252 · 12-03-2012 11:37pm

The endimg rapped up shepard story so we cant see the aftermath as shepard is no longer there. People main problem with the ending is that they are coming down for the high. The Shepard they put in time to develop, make friends and find love. Unlike a book or movie you shaped the story. The rush is over, its done. We know that there will be no more shepard. Did any one notic that the different ending had a different colour around them. The control was blue and destory is red. We all know who supported what are they were the last two people you talk to. I might be looking into it too much but the location of the choice match up with the talk wheel to end a conversation

BlitzKrieg · 12-03-2012 11:52pm

ferike1 wrote: »

Gurrenn Lagann is awesome. I guess they took inspiration from many different series.

admit it you want the gurrenn lagann option in the ME3 ending too.

TheFullDuck · 12-03-2012 11:55pm

Read this on the bioware forums, makes sense to me and clears things up a lot. Hopefully this is true but we won't really know until DLC is announced and what direction they try to take. Again it could all be conspiratorial bullsh*t :pac:

I dont understand how people dont see that the whole sequence after shepard gets blasted by harbinger is played out in his head. It is all extremely obvious and the game has been working up to it. The way indoctrination is explained over the game (making people think they are willingly helping the reapers, convinced that the reapers serve a greater cause, and uplifting the reapers as some godlike being in the subjects mind).Also the dream sequences, there are multiple dream sequences in the game so as to make it entirely possible that the ending sequence could be some hallucination too.

Now for the events itself, they are extremly clear. Harbinger, the one reaper who has been trying to indoctrinate shepard for so long, blasts shepard. He wakes up, hears whispers (Like every person that was being indoctrinated) and finds a pistol with unlimited ammo (the kind of inaccure detail one would find in a dream). He steps into the beam and gets teleported to the Citadel, the citadel which is horribly inaccurate (not recognisable, keepers cant be shot, dead human bodies litter the place in dramatic fashion which makes no sense except if imagined by shepards dispairing brain). Then theres Anderson, shepards father figure, who has no possiblity to be there (no survivors from the beam, cant have gotten passed shepard somehow). However it would make sense that he was there if it was a concotion of shepards brain, ofcourse shepard would imagine anderson there. They dont recognise the citadel, another thing commonly assosiated with dreams (if your in a dream everything makes sense, untill you start examining your surroundings and realise it totally unlogical and unrecognisable, you usually wake up not soon after). He gets to the console with anderson there, obviously imagined since anderson couldnt have gotten past shepard and according to the conversation he was only a couple seconds ahead yet you dont see him. Another figure of shepards imagination pops up out of nowhere, the illusive man. More dispair enters shepards brain as he imagines the illusive mans power, forcing him to shoot anderson. Through sheer will of force he overcomes his thoughts of the illusive man, either through breaking lose and shooting him, or by making him shoot himself.

Then comes the reaper who talks directly to shepard. You know, that reaper that presents itself as the ghost of the kid haunting shepards dream and as a godlike figure. If you read the indoctrination codex you will see indoctrinated people see reapers as godlike figures. You also clearly (or not so very clearly) hear harbingers voice in the background while the kid speaks and he refers to himself as 'we' everytime he talks about the reapers (ie. he's being pretty blatant about being a reaper). The reaper then comes up with an explenation which would make it (vaguely) seem as if the reapers serve a greater purpose (again, read the codex entry on indoctrination).
Shortly after shepard is presented with 3 choices. There is only one choice that is considered 'good' for it gives the possibility for shepard to survive and, interestingly, this is also the choice portrayed as being the worst choice according to the reaper. "you can control the reapers, just touch the lightning thing, you will die (ie. succumb to us) but everything will be alright. Or you can jump in the beam, you will die, but everything will be alright. Or you can shoot that thing, you will destroy the reapers, but it will destroy all synthetics, even you are part synthetic and you will kill the geth and your friend edi". Everything points out that the reapers Doesnt want you to make that choice, he wants shepard to willingly choose one of the other 2 options (thus completing the indoctrination of shepard).

Shepard keeps his mind cool and picks destroy the reapers, defying what the reapers wants him to do. He then imagines all that he expects to happen, and includes his hopes and wishes. His friends who were with him at the beam somehow got to safety. He imagines them stepping out of the normandy unharmed on a distant world, giving him some peace of mind. He wakes up back in the rubble on earth, Harbinger has failed.
Now we wait for Bioware to release the end (obviously this hallucination wasnt the end) for which I am gratefull. They made sure nobody gets spoiled cos of differing release dates around the globe and the datamining of the possible endings (the end isnt in the game yet so that it cant be datamined, its brilliant really).

Jester252 · 13-03-2012 12:04am

Holy fudge that would be one of the best ending ever

BlitzKrieg · 13-03-2012 12:50am

It also makes sense when you look at the other endings cause earlier in the game shepherd records a time capsule for Liara and they do a big deal of shepherds acts of bravery so the two people at the end telling stories of the *shepherd* could be the same way the current cycle looked at the Promethean and are telling stories from it.

I wonder if you asked Liara to tell it straight would it change that scene?

God this game finds excuses to make you replay

BlitzKrieg · 13-03-2012 1:05am

btw full thread on its all a dream ending: http://social.bioware.com/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/Was-the-ending-a-hallucination-9727423-1.html

its actually a good read at points

bizmark · 13-03-2012 1:57am

Its pritty damning that bioware failed so spectacularly that the fans have to cling to the hope it was all just a nightmare

seyeM · 13-03-2012 2:36am

That's a vid you get with one of the 3 endings if you EMS is high enough. This could be shepard stirring on hill where the reaper attacked after the events of the supposed ending.

Shryke · 13-03-2012 3:01am

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Btw isnt the Citadel meant to be f*cking huge? on the galaxy map it dwarves every other planet and is around the size of our sun, yet it sits over earth no bother???

It's not that huge. I remember reading the entry for it and thinking, huh I thought it was bigger.

Ah, I went with the synthesis ending. I'm not sure why. I kind of wanted to go with destroying all synthetic life but I have a soft spot for EDI and the Geth. I thought the synthetic option was the most interesting too, I didn't know what to expect.
If it was a case of being a dream sequence... I'm not sure. I'm wondering would it make sense that the ending was a hallucination, where by he did in fact go to the Citadel but under the influence of Harbinger. He thought he had a gun but didn't, imagined people around him, essentially was manipulated into doing a certain task or killing himself, by say jumping into a giant beam... that idea doesn't sit too well with me since I took the middle road.
The idea that the whole sequence was a dream rather than an actual situation renders the entire finale void in every term, so I don't give that much creadence. We know the Illusive man had some kind of procedure done on himself with Reaper tech so that fits in. Reminded me of Event Horizon a little bit. The refugee bit reminded me a little of BSG but I never thought the game was borrowing. Very well done. Was Shepard tripping balls though? Maybe...
It could all have happened save for the finale with the child.

But I think not. From a narrative point of view if Shepard was having imaginings of his friends being alive then they would occur before he himself died. I was destroyed/assimilated by the beam. Then it shows the Normandy. Post mortem dreams of a better future?

I'm just after finishing the game and it's pushing 2 in the morning. My head isn't completely around the finale and the implications yet. The whole dream idea seems like it could be valid... I don't know.

As far as DLC continuing from the ending, I don't think so! After the game is cleared you get a message to continue your adventure. You're then set back aboard the Normandy before the final assault. That implies the adventure is going to be continued with expansions similar to those we got with ME2.

All and all I'm going to take the ending as it came while staying skeptical. I haven't started thinking about it properly yet. I'm probably doing some blabbering.

Oh and I will say I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of focus on character. As someone else already said, the second game was brilliant for focusing on character and this one seems much less like it and more like the first. The team you have reflects that pretty well. ME2 is an all time favorite for me. It was good seeing the old characters and it was all balanced very well but the second game does win out. After so much investment in character and plot to throw it all into the air like that...

I got a kind of The Fountain vibe as Shepard jumped into the Beam, if anyone has seen that film... I'm talking rubbish now! Ah the wee hours..

I just previewed my post and started picking apart everything I just typed. Ah, I'll sleep on it.

BlitzKrieg · 13-03-2012 11:32am

If it was a case of being a dream sequence... I'm not sure. I'm wondering would it make sense that the ending was a hallucination, where by he did in fact go to the Citadel but under the influence of Harbinger. He thought he had a gun but didn't, imagined people around him, essentially was manipulated into doing a certain task or killing himself, by say jumping into a giant beam... that idea doesn't sit too well with me since I took the middle road.
The idea that the whole sequence was a dream rather than an actual situation renders the entire finale void in every term, so I don't give that much creadence. We know the Illusive man had some kind of procedure done on himself with Reaper tech so that fits in. Reminded me of Event Horizon a little bit. The refugee bit reminded me a little of BSG but I never thought the game was borrowing. Very well done. Was Shepard tripping balls though? Maybe...
It could all have happened save for the finale with the child.

Reading that thread it becomes quite convincing if you read it that harbinger has been trying to indoctrinate shepherd from the very beginning of the game and that the dreams are him slowly taking over, hence why they get more distorted as they go on and in the third one its both shepherd and the kid that burn. It changes how you look at the game and the deaths cause its all shepherd being worn down (which is stated a few times) by the death of friends and loss of life. It helps that when you do badly in the game there is no choice, everything just dies, indicating you were fully broken down. Also its always the people you took with you on your last mission that come out of the ship after joker and edi. It's also a good point to work from if it is biowares intention to release DLC and not a depressing final ending. No DLC then yeah its a crap way the end it.

You could say everything that happens from harbinger's arrival onwards happens over the space of seconds and the DLC could take into account what you chose and it directly affects how it starts (if you picked destroyed you fought indoctrination and the game puts you right back in front of the beam ready to continue with your team, if you picked control or synthesis you end up having to break the hold on you somehow before you rejoin your team.)

And the game will then could go to the real final battle on the citidal with an illusive man more directly under harbinger's control.

Shryke · 13-03-2012 2:51pm

That makes the most sense and with a bit of thought it seems perfectly possible. I'm not going to underestimate Bioware, they know how to tell a story. Pulling something like that off as the supposed conclusion to an epic sci-fi trilogy would be really brilliant. We know more content is coming, and if the plan was to extend the ending then it won't be too long before we see something.

Venom · 13-03-2012 2:57pm

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Reading that thread it becomes quite convincing if you read it that harbinger has been trying to indoctrinate shepherd from the very beginning of the game and that the dreams are him slowly taking over, hence why they get more distorted as they go on and in the third one its both shepherd and the kid that burn. It changes how you look at the game and the deaths cause its all shepherd being worn down (which is stated a few times) by the death of friends and loss of life. It helps that when you do badly in the game there is no choice, everything just dies, indicating you were fully broken down. Also its always the people you took with you on your last mission that come out of the ship after joker and edi. It's also a good point to work from if it is biowares intention to release DLC and not a depressing final ending. No DLC then yeah its a crap way the end it.

You could say everything that happens from harbinger's arrival onwards happens over the space of seconds and the DLC could take into account what you chose and it directly affects how it starts (if you picked destroyed you fought indoctrination and the game puts you right back in front of the beam ready to continue with your team, if you picked control or synthesis you end up having to break the hold on you somehow before you rejoin your team.)

And the game will then could go to the real final battle on the citidal with an illusive man more directly under harbinger's control.

I agree it does feel like the last section of the game due to how crap the storyline/plot gets, lends itself to the theory of Shepard going through the indoctrination process and the final scene of Shepard taking a breath is really the character being back in the games "real world" so to speak.

But, and its a pretty big but, charging customers for DLC so they get the end of a game they have already bought is a pretty scumbag thing to pull on a very loyal customerbase. The amount of bad PR the ending alone is generating not to mention the day one DLC has to be one of the biggest PR blunders in history. I just can't see any logic in why EA (lets be honest there is no "Bioware" anymore) would pull something like this as the added revenue on this one game will in no way make up for future revenue losses from pissed off customers who will never send a cent in EA's direction ever again.

BlitzKrieg · 13-03-2012 3:53pm

But, and its a pretty big but, charging customers for DLC so they get the end of a game they have already bought is a pretty scumbag thing to pull on a very loyal customerbase. The amount of bad PR the ending alone is generating not to mention the day one DLC has to be one of the biggest PR blunders in history.

Yet both bethesda (fallout 3) and Valve (Episode 1) did the exact same thing.

Hell Valve retconned the ending of half life 2 so they could do episode 1 & 2 and they still havnt finished it. And more importantly it was not the intended ending for half life 2 originally. It was a desicion by Valve to retcon its ending to keep with the setting and characters they currently had over jumping Freeman again.

Fallout 3 had the same issue as ME3 with a number of choices in the end and then a DLC (not an add on pack like episode 1 but just a DLC) created a storyline based off those choices and was able to pick up no problem and Brotherhood of steel is considered one of the better DLC for Fallout 3.

How is this any different from "The Arrival?" considered to be best DLC for Mass effect 2 which extended the plot of 2 beyond its original ending to include the set up for 3?

Yes there has been a huge PR backlash at Bioware, some they deserve, some they dont.
but announcing DLC that extends the story (not just gives us an ending) is not the worse thing they could do.

On the issue of DLC I find they fall into two camps, DLC with actual effort involved (new content, new plot points, new missions.) sense of value and then there is horse armor. Which is the worse kind of DLC.

Bethasda has shown that bigger more detailed dlc packs that do extend the story works and can be good and they've shown us irrelevent crappy item dlc also sell but is never good.

I rather Bioware do tinker with the big things in their DLC and not just offer us new multiplayer characters/maps.

Venom · 13-03-2012 4:23pm

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Yet both bethesda (fallout 3) and Valve (Episode 1) did the exact same thing.

Hell Valve retconned the ending of half life 2 so they could do episode 1 & 2 and they still havnt finished it. And more importantly it was not the intended ending for half life 2 originally. It was a desicion by Valve to retcon its ending to keep with the setting and characters they currently had over jumping Freeman again.

Fallout 3 had the same issue as ME3 with a number of choices in the end and then a DLC (not an add on pack like episode 1 but just a DLC) created a storyline based off those choices and was able to pick up no problem and Brotherhood of steel is considered one of the better DLC for Fallout 3.

How is this any different from "The Arrival?" considered to be best DLC for Mass effect 2 which extended the plot of 2 beyond its original ending to include the set up for 3?

Yes there has been a huge PR backlash at Bioware, some they deserve, some they dont.
but announcing DLC that extends the story (not just gives us an ending) is not the worse thing they could do.

On the issue of DLC I find they fall into two camps, DLC with actual effort involved (new content, new plot points, new missions.) sense of value and then there is horse armor. Which is the worse kind of DLC.

Bethasda has shown that bigger more detailed dlc packs that do extend the story works and can be good and they've shown us irrelevent crappy item dlc also sell but is never good.

I rather Bioware do tinker with the big things in their DLC and not just offer us new multiplayer characters/maps.

Well Fallout 3 had a proper ending in that you saved the wasteland and got to find how what happened to the other characters you encountered in your journey through the game. The mistake Bethesda fixed with the after game DLC was players not being able to continue the sandbox style gameplay once the games final mission was completed. And while horse Armor DLC sucked it was the first real type of DLC and Bethesda have never done something like it again and have made some of the best real DLC of any developer out there.

I agree to a point with Halflife 2 but the games ending does fit with how the cannon of the series worked nor does it **** on cannon from ME1 & 2 the way ME3 does.

ME3 however would be a game where you don't really get to the end of the story without buying extra DLC which is just wrong on every level. It's also a game the developers claimed has been finished for months so they had time to work on the day one DLC and seeing as its release is not a big holiday event I don't see how "a ran out of time excuse" can be used to explain the piss poor ending of ME3.

ferike1 · 13-03-2012 4:44pm

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

admit it you want the gurrenn lagann option in the ME3 ending too.

Nah Gurrenn Lagann was awesome by itself. Kamina was so badass.

My biggest issue with the ME3 ending was that all ending choices were pretty much the same and that all my choices up there were pointless.

Eggy Baby! · 14-03-2012 1:52am

Well I just finished ME3 about 3 hours ago, and I have to say

that that was THE most depressing ending I've ever seen in my entire life. I am literally still thinking about it. Honestly I feel like my dog has just died, I kid you not. I would not recommend anybody with a depressive disorder to play that ending because it was just....crushing and devastating. Don't get me wrong, the entire game (and franchise) has been amazing up to this point. I really loved saving the Krogan, giving them hope, etc. as with the Geth. But that ending has just winded me. The more I think about it, the more confused I become. There was very little closure or logic to the ending itself, and it was a kick in the nuts when they went "Hey, Shepards a legend, buy DLC!" I believe that Shepard had to die, but the execution of the ending was so poor that belief is lost on me. I am praying that Bioware (Like Bethesda did for Fallout 3 with Broken Steel) release a DLC actually making a decent, palatable ending or else just do a Dallas and say it was all a dream after Shep got hit by the Reaper. I am sincerely disappointed. Also, Shepard is Jesus- "The lord is my shepherd"

(Sorry about it being tagged as spoilers but I had to copy and paste from the main ME3 thread)

Kiith · 14-03-2012 2:02am

Jesus, i don't even know where to start with that. I've been sitting staring at Sheppard standing over the Galaxy Map for a few minutes now, trying to figure out what the **** just happened. I mean i get what happened from a story pov, but i'm trying to figure out what the hell Bioware were thinking when they wrote that.

I'll say to start that i really loved the game. Was great fun, and had a lot of what i had hoped to see in the 30 or so hours it took me to complete. Some nice dramatic conclusions to stories that had been built over 3 games, some excellent character conclusions (Mordin and Legion specifically) and improved on the already solid game mechanics. All in all, really enjoyable.

But I really don't think i've ever felt so pissed off at an ending before. I went for the Synth option, even though it sounded pretty ****. Die, destroy the relays, and ascend all life or some bull****. Sounded better then destroy the relays and kill all synthetics (including EDI and the Geth who i worked my ass off to save earlier in the game) or destroy the relays and take control option.

So Shep is dead, the Reapers bugger off, the hundreds of thousands of aliens that were at earth are stranded there, all life is transformed into a joint organic/synth lifeform, Liara somehow walks off the Normandy with Joker/EDI (even though she was with me on Earth) and they all stare up at the beautiful sunset of some random world that means nothing to anyone. I mean why was The Normandy even in FTL?

Then we get a scene with some old guy and a kid talking about the stars, and the legend of 'The Sheppard'. And to top it all off we get plonked right back on the Normandy, before the last mission, with a note from Bioware saying and i quote...

Bioware wrote:

Commander Shepard has become a legend by ending the Reaper threat. Now you can continue to build that legend through further gameplay and downloadable content

Awful, awful way to finish what was one of my favourite series ever. It actually feels like the ending has taken away a lot of the enjoyment i had while playing the game itself.

And i don't really think the Indoctrinated idea works either. It sounds decent from a story point of view, but if it's all just a dream and Sheppard will wake up just before the beam in a soon to be released DLC that actually concludes the Mass Effect trilogy, then i'm done with Bioware. Seriously, i'll not buy anything from them, ever again.

Mass Effect 3: The Ending(s) [** Spoilers **]

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Mass Effect 3: The Ending(s) [ Spoilers ]