SEAI Home Energy Scheme All Heating Contractors

JohnnieK · 10-03-2011 11:02pm #1

To all fellow heating contractors registared with SEAI

I am starting this thread to see if there is a general unhappy concensus with the direction of this scheme.

As with every quaterly news letter they seem to be moving the goal posts and adding in more and more requirments thus increasing the cost to the end user (the consumer). Would it be at this stage more economical for the consumer to get a new high efficency boiler with heating controls with out all the bells and whistles required by SEAI.

This thread is open to all and not just SEAI contractors, but there input would be very welcome.

Davy · 10-03-2011 11:08pm

JohnnieK wrote: »

Would it be at this stage more economical for the consumer to get a new high efficency boiler with heating controls with out all the bells and whistles required by SEAI.

Definitely.

Jedstaff · 10-03-2011 11:34pm

I have to charge extra now for the seai grant jobs with all the extra bits.so I'm loosing out on jobs to cash merchants who just fit basic controls. Change overs are taking longer, about a day and a half (power flush / wiring ect) where other lads take a couple of hours .

JohnnieK · 11-03-2011 12:00am

Jedstaff wrote: »

I have to charge extra now for the seai grant jobs with all the extra bits.so I'm loosing out on jobs to cash merchants who just fit basic controls. Change overs are taking longer, about a day and a half (power flush / wiring ect) where other lads take a couple of hours .

Break things down for them Jedstaff. Heating upgrade to SEAI standards for this price, New boiler with controls for this price, and so on.

Regarding change overs I to was loosing out so I started doing change overs with a powerflush for this price or change over only for another price stating to them that it might affect there warranty. I would then get them to sign the invoice where I put powerflush recommended but not taken.

I remember one job the guy came in and quoted a change over for €1400 including a powerflush, now you tell me how he managed that. I told the customer to ring me when he was finished. I met the customer and showed him my machine and the chemicals and asked him did he use one of them. You should of seen the look on his face.

yoshytoshy · 11-03-2011 8:01am

With the boilers we install ,the log book has to be filled out for the five year guarantee. The system has to be flushed and everything to the specs of the manual.

Thats usually good enough for people.

kscobie · 13-03-2011 7:49pm

The only way is a very detailed quotation, boiler type, model, efficiency,power flush, controls type and manufacturer, boiler warranty/passport, oftec no/rgii no, vat no,electricans details, the more info, the better. This shows up the cowboys, makes the customer as questions

Jedstaff · 13-03-2011 8:41pm

I'd say that's the best way all right.a lot of people still think cheapest is best though! At a job last month where woman paid 1500 cash for boiler change. But plumber wouldn't call back after one month to rectify fault,I'd love to name and shame him. He's rgii all right, I suppose that's something!

JohnnieK · 13-03-2011 10:41pm

Jedstaff wrote: »

I'd say that's the best way all right.a lot of people still think cheapest is best though! At a job last month where woman paid 1500 cash for boiler change. But plumber wouldn't call back after one month to rectify fault,I'd love to name and shame him. He's rgii all right, I suppose that's something!

If you know who he is you should report him to RGII. I would not entertain that woman either, calling you back to fix some one's problem.

steven82 · 16-03-2011 2:39pm

Getting back to the origonal comment. Yes, SEAI's involvment in boiler changes has made life difficult for all installers. The installers are expected to rectify pervious oversights in old building regulations and also add on additional electrial items that have little or nothing to do with boilers or saving money. The cost of satisfying SEAI is around €1400 extra and the customer only gets an €800 grant (including BER grant).
The way the grant scheme is set up, its set up to suit the large firms. 2 years warranty is another crazy compulsary T&C in the small print. Suits ESB and Board Gais who have the crews to easily manage that.
Im offering boiler quotes with the grant and SEAI frills and also a standard changeout with zoing. Only time will tell which way the consumers will prefer.
The penalty points system has been introduced incorrectly also. ONly started recently tho they are checking jobs from pre-penalty point scheme and issuing points for those jobs.
Its like the goverment lowering the speed limit and fining everyone who broke the lower limt before it was even introduced

Joey the lips · 18-03-2011 9:26pm

steven82 wrote: »

. The cost of satisfying SEAI is around €1400 extra and the customer only gets an €800 grant (including BER grant).
The way the grant scheme is set up, its set up to suit the large firms. 2

Interesting. The same problem occurs in bathrooms as well. You are far more cheaper installing a wet room with wall grips than a disabled bathroom through a specialist company. i often point this out to physio and occupational therapests who can you point this to....

Royal Seahawk · 20-03-2011 1:41am

Can someone elaborate on a power flush please,thanks.

JohnnieK · 20-03-2011 1:02pm

Royal Seahawk wrote: »

Can someone elaborate on a power flush please,thanks.

A powerflush is the chemical treatment of a central heating system. A chemical is added to the system and aloud to circulate for anything from a hour up to a week, depending on how bad the system is. A machine called a power flusher is then connected to the system via the boiler connections or a radiator. The machine then flushes the pipework and radiators and cleanses them. An inhibitor is then added to prevent further corrosion. It must also be noted that an inhibitor dose not last forever and must be replenished after time. Also open vented system should be flushed every 10 years.

Also when installing a new boiler on a system the system should be flushed as per manufacturers recommendations. It is possible that the warranty might might be affected if the boiler was put on a dirty system.

The flushing process on most domestic installations would take a day. If someone offers a new boiler and flushing of the system and dose it in one day I doubt they are doing it properly.

Donadea Leo · 22-03-2011 3:17pm

As a customer (without a lot of knowledge of these things), I got a quote for heating controls upgrade as thought it would be a great thing to have done - just shy of 3k. Quickly put that out of my head.
Boiler though not a condensing one seems to be working fine so not inclined to change that. There was a bit of work in order to add zones to separate hot water from radiators - fanciest gizmo I have currently is a timer so I'm sure there's a bit of work in it. Had originally thought this was someone still believing in the celtic tiger but maybe not reading this thread.
Would adding TRVs to all radiators be counted as a zone - would this work or would SEAI not approve this?

JohnnieK · 22-03-2011 9:07pm

Donadea Leo wrote: »

As a customer (without a lot of knowledge of these things), I got a quote for heating controls upgrade as thought it would be a great thing to have done - just shy of 3k. Quickly put that out of my head.
Boiler though not a condensing one seems to be working fine so not inclined to change that. There was a bit of work in order to add zones to separate hot water from radiators - fanciest gizmo I have currently is a timer so I'm sure there's a bit of work in it. Had originally thought this was someone still believing in the celtic tiger but maybe not reading this thread.
Would adding TRVs to all radiators be counted as a zone - would this work or would SEAI not approve this?

SEAI would not approve I'm afraid. You have to be able to independently control the temperature and the time of your hot water and heating.
Even if you just went for a new boiler with a good programmable room thermostat and TRV's you would have a much more efficiant system than you already have and would probably come in a little cheaper.

greenwitenvy · 27-04-2011 7:40pm

I think your all missing the point! SEAI have set this standard, because for years heating systems have being installed very inefficient. People have to look at the long term of their investment, not just the bottom figure(cost) of the installation!
The whole idea is to save money in the long run with rising prices of oil and gas and I think that this message needs to get across to the customer.
The extra Trv's, Motorised Valves, Stats and timeclocks and even the immersion timer.
Most houses that I go into, the immersion is left on with the heating system also.
I called to a job this week and the previous 2 plumbers had advised the customer not to go for the grant, that it was a waste of money!

I feel that it sets the standards higher and keeps everyone on their toes and keeps the cash kings at bay(black market)

JohnnieK · 28-04-2011 10:06pm

Unfortunatly my friend the "cash kings" are very much out there and I for one am finding it hard to compete with them. I personally think the grant scheme is bull. The standard has always been there but just not implemented in the domestic market. When the grant was set up it was for a more "efficient" system and then they started bringing the building regs into it and as everyone knows if you go into 20 year old house the lack of building regs hits you straight away. To expext the installer to bring the installation up to the current ones is way to much to expect and a good bit of the time is not cost affective no matter how much oil or gas goes up.

This thing about the 10sq earth bonding is one example. A lot of older houses dont have 20sq incoming mains so there is no need to upgrade the earth cable, but they still pull you up on it. If they want the cables upgraded get an electrician to do a rewire on the place.

The grants for this are ending in 2013 thank god.

Jedstaff · 29-04-2011 10:42pm

Couldn't agree with you more johnniek. Can't wait till these grant jobs end and everyone is on an even keel pricing jobs.

Micky Dolenz · 04-05-2011 5:08pm

Maybe we should start a book on who gets to 10 pp first :P

greenwitenvy · 05-05-2011 1:40am

Lads
It's the only gig in town, only for it, I don't know where the work would come from. Can't see it going myself. I'd say it will be extended .
They said the same about the solar grants! Remember

yoshytoshy · 06-05-2011 3:04pm

greenwitenvy wrote: »

Lads
It's the only gig in town, only for it, I don't know where the work would come from. Can't see it going myself. I'd say it will be extended .
They said the same about the solar grants! Remember

Thats nonsense ,especially considering what is happening in Bord gais at the moment. It doesn't sound like you know whats going on.

MiniGolf · 11-05-2011 4:19pm

New grant rates out:
Heating SystemHigh Efficiency Oil / Gas Boiler with Controls upgrade.€560
Heating Controls Upgrade only€400
Solar Heating€800

taken from SEAI.ie!!

JohnnieK · 11-05-2011 10:42pm

MiniGolf wrote: »

New grant rates out:
Heating SystemHigh Efficiency Oil / Gas Boiler with Controls upgrade.€560
Heating Controls Upgrade only€400
Solar Heating€800

taken from SEAI.ie!!

It's a great incentive for consumers to upgrade there heating systems all right. Reduce the grant:rolleyes:.
There reason is because "the price of installations has gone down". Maybe I should show them the letters from DPL and heatmechants telling me that the price of pipe and fittings has gone up again. :rolleyes:

Micky Dolenz · 11-05-2011 10:44pm

Now I won't have to reach 10 pp, I'm done with grant work.

steven82 · 18-05-2011 9:35am

greenwitenvy wrote: »

I think your all missing the point! SEAI have set this standard, because for years heating systems have being installed very inefficient. People have to look at the long term of their investment, not just the bottom figure(cost) of the installation!
The whole idea is to save money in the long run with rising prices of oil and gas and I think that this message needs to get across to the customer.
The extra Trv's, Motorised Valves, Stats and timeclocks and even the immersion timer.
Most houses that I go into, the immersion is left on with the heating system also.
I called to a job this week and the previous 2 plumbers had advised the customer not to go for the grant, that it was a waste of money!

I feel that it sets the standards higher and keeps everyone on their toes and keeps the cash kings at bay(black market)

My main issue is not all the extras SEAI are asking us to do or their standard, as everyone on the scheme must do all the extras to the same standard, so were all on a level playing field. The single biggest issue with SEAI is the fact that they have a "standard" that they want us to install to, but they cannot train us to it. We only find out about new items when you’re hit with a penalty point, or 3 in most cases. If they have a "standard", train us to it, and i know i will never get another penalty point again. Punishing us into shape is no way to train an industry. Circus's used to train the animals like that, and they don’t even do that anymore (supposedly)

Outkast_IRE · 21-05-2011 4:04pm

Did anybody ever get a reasonable answer as to why you need a automatic bypass, even if one is part of the system gas boiler you just installed ?

JohnnieK · 24-05-2011 9:47pm

The bypass in the boiler enables the minimum flow rate through the boiler in the event of all valves closing. This may not be sufficiant for the whole system and it say's this in nearly every boiler installation manual I know off.
In most standard domestic installations the boiler bypass is sufficient but to know for certain you would have to expose every run of pipe to determin the size, any restrictions and water content to determin flow rates. This is not practical so an auto-bypass valve is fitted external to the boiler to be on the safe side.
A pain in the bum but it has to be done to satisfy the suits.

Outkast_IRE · 24-05-2011 10:41pm

JohnnieK wrote: »

The bypass in the boiler enables the minimum flow rate through the boiler in the event of all valves closing. This may not be sufficiant for the whole system and it say's this in nearly every boiler installation manual I know off.
In most standard domestic installations the boiler bypass is sufficient but to know for certain you would have to expose every run of pipe to determin the size, any restrictions and water content to determin flow rates. This is not practical so an auto-bypass valve is fitted external to the boiler to be on the safe side.
A pain in the bum but it has to be done to satisfy the suits.

To be honest on a lot of the grant work we do , they look for a new better insulated cylinder too , so changing the pipework isnt a problem, as theres motorized valves and all that going in aswell , its just another expense that the client doesnt realise , especially with the new grant rates its making people shy away from getting the extra work done .

Micky Dolenz · 25-05-2011 10:00am

JohnnieK wrote: »

The bypass in the boiler enables the minimum flow rate through the boiler in the event of all valves closing. This may not be sufficiant for the whole system and it say's this in nearly every boiler installation manual I know off.
In most standard domestic installations the boiler bypass is sufficient but to know for certain you would have to expose every run of pipe to determin the size, any restrictions and water content to determin flow rates. This is not practical so an auto-bypass valve is fitted external to the boiler to be on the safe side.
A pain in the bum but it has to be done to satisfy the suits.

It only makes sense though on a system that has a pump over run on it. For an on demand system, it should not be required, as soon as stats are satisfied the system goes down almost immediately.

JohnnieK · 29-05-2011 10:54pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

especially with the new grant rates its making people shy away from getting the extra work done .

It looks to me as if they are trying to make the grant as unattractive as they can so people wont go for it. All this bull****e they said about the price of installations coming down was the reason the grant is lower is total nonsens. The fact is it has not come down and the other hard truth is that fittings have risen in price by about 12.5%.

This whole thing is only going to promote the black economy in my eyes.

JohnnieK · 29-05-2011 10:55pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It only makes sense though on a system that has a pump over run on it. For an on demand system, it should not be required, as soon as stats are satisfied the system goes down almost immediately.

Totally agree micky

roy rodgers · 02-06-2011 11:01pm

These grants are aload of ****!!

Can anyone tell me why you cant have a thermostatic rad valve in the same room as the room stat???

I done a small house in town recently and it is all open plan down stairs and I put on the TRV on all the rads and now I have to go back and take them all off because someone in SEAI reakons that they should not be there

.
I find people perfer the TRV because its handy to turn off a rad or they can see what number they have it set at..

I think your right lads about they are trying to make as much unattractive as possible to do the work its just not worth the hassle for a ****ty price we are getting and then pay all the vat on it.
Thats me finished with it for sure. "I'll doa good cash price forya missus!!"
Thats going to be my new one.....

slavetothegrind · 03-06-2011 3:40pm

roy rodgers wrote: »

"I'll doa good cash price forya missus!!"
Thats going to be my new one.....

i hope your user name ain't yer trading name:pac::pac::D

yoshytoshy · 03-06-2011 10:01pm

All I'm doing is these jobs at the moment ,the earth bonding is a load of tosh. I was told by a reci guy ,I know ,that 10sq earth is only for really long runs ,thats all:(

knighted_1 · 05-06-2011 12:52am

roy rodgers wrote: »

These grants are aload of ****!!

Can anyone tell me why you cant have a thermostatic rad valve in the same room as the room stat???

.

yes -but you answered your own question further down -

if there is a room stat in the sitting room ,along with a trv and the customer sets the trv at one or off ,the room stat might never be satisfied and keep calling for heat ,system will only cut out on the high heat stat when the other trvs are satisfied ,but the room stat might still be calling for heat .

knighted_1 · 05-06-2011 11:13am

yoshytoshy wrote: »

All I'm doing is these jobs at the moment ,the earth bonding is a load of tosh. I was told by a reci guy ,I know ,that 10sq earth is only for really long runs ,thats all:(

he mixing up with electrical supply -10sq for long runs to allow for volt drop etc

in the case of the bonding being 10 sq now, this is to ensure that electricity is taken down the path of least resistance (we know that ) if your holding a pipe that has been electrified you must have an easier path than the human body ,so to allow 220v times x amount of amps to bypass your body you must give it the least resistance PLUS the quickest time to do this ,by increasing the cross sectional area of the earth (10 sq) this is achieved .

dont know if i explained it well enough

there was a calculation done (that i dont know ) but they put the human body at between 1500 and 3000 ohms and power had to be diverted in 20 milliseconds ??? maybe a sparks could explain it better

JohnnieK · 05-06-2011 11:35pm

I have a customer who wants me to drop the price by the amount the grant dropped because she was late applying for the grant and missed the old grant value. You can imagine the answer I gave her :mad:. She said she read on the SEAI website the the price of the installations are coming down :mad::mad:. They are a shower of F***ers for posting that on there website.

spireland32 · 03-09-2011 7:58pm

Hi all, I'm a frustrated contractor like you guys... So we set up the APHCI. You will find a thread on this in the heating and plumbing section. These Issues you talk about are being addressed with seai at the moment. Big meeting in the red cow hotel thurs 8 sep 2011 all rgi contractors are urged to attend. PM or email me spireland32@gmail.com for any info.

JohnnieK · 04-09-2011 12:29am

spireland32 wrote: »

Hi all, I'm a frustrated contractor like you guys... So we set up the APHCI. You will find a thread on this in the heating and plumbing section. These Issues you talk about are being addressed with seai at the moment. Big meeting in the red cow hotel thurs 8 sep 2011 all rgi contractors are urged to attend. PM or email me spireland32@gmail.com for any info.

I am a member of the APHCI myself and I have not heard anything about this meeting as of yet, but I will take this as the invitation. This organisation needs to be give support so that WE have representation as contractors. I for one will be there.

spireland32 · 04-09-2011 5:36pm

Great johnnie look forward to seeing you there.

Micky Dolenz · 05-09-2011 3:27pm

I won't be able to attend but if someone could give us a run down of what was discussed, that would be great

spireland32 · 05-09-2011 7:25pm

You should have recieved an email today from the APHCI with the minutes of the meeting...

JohnnieK · 05-09-2011 8:57pm

Spireland32 I got that mail cheers, see you Thursday.

fressatty · 18-10-2011 11:56pm

I got a full fit done. Evacuated tubes on the roof for solar heating. The house was split into 3 zones - bedrooms, living rooms, DHW. Condensing OIL boiler out the back. All rads and pipework was replaced with latest efficient kit. TRV's on all rads except rooms with stats fitted (from reading this forum it now makes sense why the installer came back later on to take the TRV's out of the rooms with stats installed!). All sort of automatic gate valves on all zones.

Am i happy with this setup? Yes!

The system that is installed is highly efficient, I agree with their (SEAI) thinking on heating control upgrades etc, it makes sense not to be heating bedrooms while youre sitting in the living room or kitchen eating your dinner and watching TV!

Am I happy with the SEAI grant scheme? Not a hope!, they tried everything to delay/refuse my applications by asking for ridiculous things like hand written statements from the original installer??!! It got to the stage where i drove up to Dundalk twice in one month to hand deliver the grant forms so i could answer their stupid queries there and then after they set the forms back in the post for ridiculous reasons. In the end i lost out on the boiler and heating upgrade because of flaffing about on their part. I only just managed to get the Solar one because of hand delivering of documents.

Ater owning this installation for about a year now i've basically educated myself on the finer details of how it all works and how it should be maintained. It is complicated stuff for a novice (this is my first home, always lived in apartments before this). I'm a computer engineer by trade so i can apreciate the technical breakdown of how these systems work off each other but to somebody without a clue they would never realise it's potential and probably blame the installer because they're using the same amount of oil they always did etc. It gets intricate after a while. I've bored myself to sleep a few times researching how this stuff works so i can get its maximum potential.

So yes, the SEAI seem to be moving the goalpoasts all the time for the installer and the customer. These systems will only work efficiently if the customers educate themselves on how to use it all efficiently, otherwise its just going to cause more grief than good..and cost more too

I do see how its frustrating for an installer, theres a lot of red tape that needs to be followed in order to basically cover your arse to get the job done. Having to come back to remove the TRV's because of a new sudden SEAI directive would have cost the installer in man hours so thats something the SEAI never consider.

You should also lobby for more to be done on their part to educate the customers on the system they got grants for i.e. If I am approved for a grant for a Solar Heating system or Control upgrade/Zones, then the SEAI should provide an information pack on how to get the most out of the kit that they recommend.

Maybe mention tht the next time you have a sit down wiht them.

JohnnieK · 19-10-2011 12:52am

Thats just the thing, they wont sit down with us:mad:. What you got done is a very extensive upgrade but most would not be like that. Most upgrades just separate the hot water from the space heating. I have a customer at the moment that's refurbishing his house between one thing and another the building works got delayed, his grant expires next week and when he rang to ask for a moratorium on the expiry date they point blank refused. Now I have to pull the cat out of the bag to try and get the heating system finished, commissioned and signed off by Friday. It's a magic wand I need not a tool box.

20-12-2011 1:06am

im getting sick of seai their putting more expensive on customers and keep changing things thinking of taking them on got the go ahead for solar from them and know their question house sq meter / tubes kingspan as job is done they dont meet up

Mattif · 04-02-2012 7:17pm

I am registered with the seai I took on a job and fitted a oil boiler + heating controles after finishing the job but before I filled out the sign off forms the changed the standords and said you had to be oftec reg to sign off this work.
Can I still sign off these forms or not can u help because I can not find any information on this matter???

Micky Dolenz · 04-02-2012 7:47pm

Mattif wrote: »

I am registered with the seai I took on a job and fitted a oil boiler + heating controles after finishing the job but before I filled out the sign off forms the changed the standords and said you had to be oftec reg to sign off this work.
Can I still sign off these forms or not can u help because I can not find any information on this matter???

When were these changes made?

Mattif · 05-02-2012 11:21am

The changes were made in the middle of the job taking place !

JohnnieK · 05-02-2012 9:59pm

This is news to me to be honest. I'm OFTEC trained but never registered with them (just never got around to it). I have done a good few Grant boilers on SEAI grant jobs and this issue has never come up.

The passport says that an oftec tech has to install it but that is mainly for the UK as the oil industry over here is not regulated as of yet (2013 supposed to be)

When I was in Grant I mentioned this and he said because we are in Ireland this does not apply, The passport still needs to be filled in and the boiler needs to be commissioned properly with an analyser and the warranty will be honoured.

SEAI want it installed to OFTEC recommended criteria but not OFTEC registered.

Billy Bunting · 05-02-2012 10:42pm

I'm with Johnie, i'm Oftec registered and get called out for commisioning by non Oftec installers, the Oftec label has little clout, i'm told changes that matter come in in March, fill in the passport, if its right the passport will be, do the fga and thats all thats required here.

JohnnieK · 03-03-2012 10:11am

Got an email from the better energy home scheme yesterday. A generic email sent to all contractors with a list of do's and dont's. One that stuck out like a sore thumb was "NO contractor on the scheme shall apply for the grant on behalf of a customer"

So how come Board Gais Home Team (Sierra) and ESB Electric Ireland are aloud to do this or has this changed in the last week?

I have sent an email to SEAI and I am awaiting my copied and pasted answer.

SEAI Home Energy Scheme All Heating Contractors

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