Spaying a female dog.

Definately get her done - she'll be back to normal in a day or two, it won't have any ill effects and will prevent some cancers developing in later life ....

I had my two cocker spaniel bitches neautered at the same time(they developed lumps on the mammary glands that turned out to be cancerous) and they calmed down immediatly. They're a very energetic breed anyway, and i was shocked by the change in them. They were prtty quiet and grumpy for a few days, but as soon as the stitches came out, they were fine, just a lot calmer!

salad dodger wrote: »

Apologies first for slightly hijacking the thread.

But as we're on the subject of spaying, I'd just like to find out when is the best time to get it done? I've seen some relatives bitches swell up after the operation and i wonder was it because the dogs were done either too early or too late.
Mrs D and i got a wee shih tzu bitch last week at 8weeks old. I'm not sure as to what age to put her under the knife as we have no real interest in breeding off of her and as mentioned before, to reduce the risk of health probs in the future. I've heard not to get it done until she has gone on heat at least once. I have also heard it recommended in the past to let a bitch have a litter first and then get her done.

Thanks for any input.

I've just been talking to my Vet(he's a family friend) and in his opinion, you should wait til around 6 months, or the first time she comes into season(which tends to be around the same time) If a dog is not bred, the chances of cancer occuring are huge(thats what happened to my two, neither had a litter and i found the lumps on their teats around age 6) Whether or not she has a litter first is of no consequence. I'm only repeating what he told me, and i may not have picked up all the info correctly. Your Schih-tzu pup will be needing her shots soon anyway, why not ask your vet then?

We had our Retriever/labrador female spayed about 7 weeks ago at 6 months. This was before she went into heat at all.
I had asked the question of whether we should wait until she had gone into season once and got conflicting opinions but more seemed to be advising to get her done before she went into season so we went with that.
She was quiet for about 2 days and then back to her normal loopy self!
I would say if the dog is very energetic to re-enforce the lampshade(with duct tape or something similar)....our dog managed to take hers off and take out her stitches! All was fine tho!

Imagine sterilizing a human at the age of 9 or 10 before they were sexually mature, imagine how stunted their growth and development would be. Please if possible leave a dog to fully mature before spay / neutering, of course if you can't contain your dog then spay / neutering at 6 months is the lesser of 2 evils but otherwise leave you dog until 18 - 24 months depending on its breed.

Xiney wrote: »

most people are not equipped with the time or the knowledge to keep a dog in heat away from intact males in the area.

spaying a female dog before they go into their first heat is the best practise. Human development is miles away from dogs' - the comparison is invalid.

I've already said if you can't contain your dog to spay / neuter at 6 months.
The comparison is v.valid. Sex hormones have the same effects on a dogs growth as it does a humans. Just like human adolsences dog adolsences grow in fits and starts rather than in one go, cut out hormones at any point in their development and you stunt grownth, which is why they are finding an increase in bone problems like bone cancer in dogs in later life that were spayed early.

lisar201 wrote: »

so is it better to let a bitch have pups before you neutre? My 7 month old rottie is coming into heat and i am debating whether or not to let her have pups as some ppl are saying its better to and some are saying it makes no difference at all

Absol not!! There is absol no need for your dog to have pups. Plus i hope you wouldnt be thinking of breeding her in her first heat, are you?

lisar201 wrote: »

no no no no no!!! I was thinking about when she was maybe about 2 or older
but if it makes no difference at all i more than likely won't

Oh thats good, sorry, it just looked like you were thinking of doing it now. Its not easy to sell rotties to good homes and there are so many in the pound and being given up for adoption so i honestly wouldnt be breeding from her unless you have showed her and she is an excellent example of her breed.

lisar201 wrote: »

yeah ill wait till near the time and then decide,It just gona be a nightmare trying to walk her when she is in heat!

I wouldnt be walking her too much when shes in heat. If a dog gets to her it can only take seconds to mate with her and you wont be able to get him off her if you are on your own with her so i would be very careful out walking her and if you really have to, just walk her places where there are no other dogs really, just to be sure.

lrushe wrote: »

Imagine sterilizing a human at the age of 9 or 10 before they were sexually mature, imagine how stunted their growth and development would be. Please if possible leave a dog to fully mature before spay / neutering, of course if you can't contain your dog then spay / neutering at 6 months is the lesser of 2 evils but otherwise leave you dog until 18 - 24 months depending on its breed.

Developmentally, probably yes, but their growth wouldnt' be stunted; quite the opposite in fact. Human males who've been castrated grow very tall, and I've heard the same is true with dogs; those neutered before puberty is done can get 'leggy', and bigger than average.

A dog certainly shouldn't gain weight after being neutered. Both of mine were neutered before I got them from rescue and one is a lot slimmer now than she was then. If your dog puts on weight it needs more exercise and/or less food.

kylith wrote: »

Developmentally, probably yes, but their growth wouldnt' be stunted; quite the opposite in fact. Human males who've been castrated grow very tall, and I've heard the same is true with dogs; those neutered before puberty is done can get 'leggy', and bigger than average.

A dogs growth plates grow at different stages in its development right up until it is full grown. So for example a dogs tiba and fibula might grow to its full size by 6 months but its femur won't be fully developed until 11 months. If the dog is sterilised at 6 months the femur will never fully develop as it should (stunted). There are cases where a dogs (mostly males) grow quiet tall and leggy but this is as dangerous in later life as stunted growth as their bones grow too fast, this in turn will lead to painful joints and possible cancers.

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Just as on the human medical forums on this board, I really think people should not be allowed to post supposed facts here without supporting it with links to reputable scientific literature.

lrushe - what is your opinion on the comparative risks of possible growth plate problems in a spayed female versus risks of mammary cancer in an unspayed female?

My opinion is that mammary cancer is easier to detect and much easier to treat than the likes of bone cancer which is nearly always a death sentence. I am not advocating never neutering or spaying a dog but rather waiting until it is fully matured ie 18 - 24 months old when there is only a marginally increased risk of mammary cancer over a dog who was spayed at a young age. I am not comfortable with the blanket statement given to most pet owners that spaying and neutering at 6 months is the best the answer and until there is more research gone into the long term effects of early spaying and neutering it is not a course of action I would choose for my dog. However, as I have said before if you cannot contain your intact dog then early neutering or spaying is the lesser of 2 evils.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Graces7 wrote: »

There is a lot to be said for "juvenile( pediatric) spaying".

It is practised a lot in the US and Canada by reputable breeders.

One overview..

http://www.americanhumane.org/about-us/newsroom/fact-sheets/juvenile-spay-neuter.html

Ask google for others. ( very slow connection and I cannot get sites up)

As for it calming a bitch down! No way! Our wee JRT/Basset cross hardly stopped in her tracks after her op.

It is the breed and the personality of the dog. Even adulthood has not stopped this one; but she sleeps longer now at 5 years,

Graces7 I accept that early spay / neutering is needed where unwanted litters can't be prevented and therefore the viewpoint taken by humane societies. However what I am not comfortable with is the possible long term health implications associated with early spay / neutering and the fact that it is dished out as an all-in-one solution to so many dog issues without those implications being discussed with pet owners. In my own case I have found those implications unacceptable for my dogs, maybe others might aswell if they had the information.
Just to add 2 of my 3 dogs are spayed and neutered and the third will be when she's fully grown (if she's not shown) so I am not against spaying and neutering at all, just not before a dog is mature.

shinikins wrote: »

I have to disagree slightly with you here, mammary cancer is not easier to treat than bone cancer in dogs, as it tends to be much more insidious than any other cancer. Bone cancers in dogs can be treated, but it is an expensive process which is offputting to owners, but certainly not impossible. In fact, not 6 months after my two were spayed, one had to be put to sleep as she became absolutely riddled with secondary cancer. During their surgeries, all of their reproductive organs were removed including all their mammary glands which technically should have removed that risk.
The link that you have added is medical opinion, rather than medical fact, and there are plenty of conflicting views out there. As ISDW put it "Just because its on the internet doesn't make it true." And in my opinion, just because the author of the study has an M.S, after her name, it doesn't make her an expert...it can after all stand for Master of Science, or Medical Student...

Well we will have to agree to disagree then, I've known dogs to have mammary cancer at 5-6 years of age live until 14 after treatment with no reaccurnace, anytime I've known of dogs with bone cancer they've rarely live more than 12 months after being diagnosed. Rubbing or brushing a dog is often when mammary cancer is found by an owner as it is on the surface of the animal so its usually caught early, bone cancer isn't usually detected until the dog starts showing symptoms ie limping which by then it has spread too far as it is such an agressive form of cancer, I have never said it is impossible to treat but just alot harder than most cancers. Not to mention the treatment for bone cancer is so much more invasive than the treatment for mammary cancer. Its not just bone cancer it has been shown to decrease but also spleen, thyroid, urinary tract and heart tumours as well as vaginal dermatitis and joint disorders.
If your dog died 6 months after being spayed there is a v.real chance she already had undected cancer starting to form and that had spread, cancer can form from the v.smallest piece of infected tissue.
The study is not an opinion there are medical statistics in there that cannot be ignored. Nowhere does the study claim to be gospel but it asks for more investigation into the long term effects of early spay / neutering. I can guarantee you Laura J. Sanborn is definately not a medical sudent, I included her study because I was asked to back up my opinion with some medical facts, they only way I could do that was to provide a link to the study as I can't include the hard copy I have to a post, its not just a random link I found off the internet to support my argument.

lrushe wrote: »

Well we will have to agree to disagree then, I've known dogs to have mammary cancer at 5-6 years of age live until 14 after treatment with no reaccurnace, anytime I've known of dogs with bone cancer they've rarely live more than 12 months after being diagnosed. Rubbing or brushing a dog is often when mammary cancer is found by an owner as it is on the surface of the animal so its usually caught early, bone cancer isn't usually detected until the dog starts showing symptoms ie limping which by then it has spread too far as it is such an agressive form of cancer, I have never said it is impossible to treat but just alot harder than most cancers. Not to mention the treatment for bone cancer is so much more invasive than the treatment for mammary cancer. Its not just bone cancer it has been shown to decrease but also spleen, thyroid, urinary tract and heart tumours as well as vaginal dermatitis and joint disorders.
If your dog died 6 months after being spayed there is a v.real chance she already had undected cancer starting to form and that had spread, cancer can form from the v.smallest piece of infected tissue.
The study is not an opinion there are medical statistics in there that cannot be ignored. Nowhere does the study claim to be gospel but it asks for more investigation into the long term effects of early spay / neutering. I can guarantee you Laura J. Sanborn is definately not a medical sudent, I included her study because I was asked to back up my opinion with some medical facts, they only way I could do that was to provide a link to the study as I can't include the hard copy I have to a post, its not just a random link I found off the internet to support my argument.

Conversely, I have known dogs who have contracted Osteosarcoma (bone cancer) and survived. My own Cocker is one. After recovering from her mammary cancers, she developed a cancer in her hind left leg, and with succesful chemo has survived without any invasive treatment. In my opinion, neutering a female dog is far more invasive, and there is far greater risk of infection as the entire abdominal cavity is exposed. Even with more agressive bone tumours a full amputation is a far simpler and less invasive procedure.

In my opinion the reason so many dogs die from bone cancers is because their owners don't tend to be vigilant about the health of their pets.

I am curious to know how you can guarantee that Ms Sanborn is not a medical student, all i can find on her is that she is a researcher in Rutger University, and my own vet(who is a friend) has never come across her in the course of his own studies. He also stated that a 4 year old study based on 200 previous papers is hardly reliable.

At the end of the day, i trust my vet, he studied intensively for 5 years and has completed a post graduate degree. He is my expert!

lrushe wrote: »

Like I said we will have to agree to disagree and its for each owner to make up their own mind and it just doesn't sit right with me to spay or neuter early, it is my opinion and when asked it is the one I give.
As for Laura J.Sanborn the M.S. after her name does stand for Master of Science, nowhere in the world do medical students sign there name M.S. But if Ms. Sanborn doesn't have enough letters after her name for you you might try Pam Davol PHD or Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP both have written on the subject of early spay / neutering with findings similar to Ms. Sanborns.

In the US students do indeed sign M.S. after their names, and i know this from personal experience. My question was how can you guarantee that Sanborn is not a student, not how many letters she or anyone else has after it? The main problem i have with her report is that it is very sweeping and general, giving overall statistics. For example there are 6 different types of bone cancer that can affect dogs, but her statistics just give total rates. Also, larger breeds such as Rottweilers, Labradors and Wolfhounds are far more likely to develop bone cancer than small breeds. Here are a few links that show no relation of early neutering to increased risk of bone cancer.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=575
http://www.dalmatians.us/cancer.htm
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=575

All written by vets(with the accompanying letters after their names ) but they are in the end, like your link, reports published on the internet.

Beekay wrote: »

I know this is OT but How long will the dog be at the vets when getting them spayed?

Depends on the vets facilities and workload, if they have space they may take your dog in overnight, or if you drop your dog in early, it my be collected that evening. Your vet should be able to give you an idea if you call and ask.

Beekay wrote: »

I know this is OT but How long will the dog be at the vets when getting them spayed?

Usually practice is to drop the dog down in the morning and pick up in the evening.

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Now, my research skills may not be the best - and I'm genuinely interested to read this information if it is peer reviewed.

Re-read my earlier posts I've already mentioned 2.