Irish Rugby and Sevens

jayteecork · 09-12-2009 3:17pm #1

Was watching the 7s action in Dubai on telly.
All the 6 nations teams were there, the tri-nations, Argentina, 7s regs like Samoa and Fiji, but also teams like Kenya, USA and Zimbabwe.
But no Ireland.

With 7s getting into the Olympics and Irish rugby currently on a massive high I thought this situation most strange.

Anyone know what the story is?

(Or maybe it's cause Denis McBride retired, lol)

Stev_o · 09-12-2009 3:23pm

We entered the World Cup last year that contained extremely talented players all of who have played a high standard of rugby, and they got trounced by the might of Zimbabwe.

It should be invested in, it's a great way to develop young players (People like Conway who have a mountain to climb to get into their provinces first XV) just look at some of the players it has produced over the years.

thomond2006 · 09-12-2009 3:40pm

Agree with Stevo we should have a Sevens team.

Scotland have less professional players than us and they have a full time Sevens team. Albeit, I don't know how well they're doing and what players they have helped to develop. Can't do any harm though for young players to travel all over the world.

guapos · 09-12-2009 3:41pm

I used to think that we should invest in a 7s team but theres a few things that have changed my mind

1. We have produced our best ever team without any 7s
2. Where is the money going to come from? A more competitive Connacht team is more important than a 7s

5 aside football and pitch and putt aren't used to produce international players in their sports I dont see why 7s should be any different.

thomond2006 · 09-12-2009 3:45pm

guapos wrote: »

I used to think that we should invest in a 7s team but theres a few things that have changed my mind

1. We have produced our best ever team without any 7s
2. Where is the money going to come from? A more competitive Connacht team is more important than a 7s

5 aside football and pitch and putt aren't used to produce international players in their sports I dont see why 7s should be any different.

Correct.

d'Oracle · 09-12-2009 4:36pm

guapos wrote: »

I used to think that we should invest in a 7s team but theres a few things that have changed my mind

1. We have produced our best ever team without any 7s
2. Where is the money going to come from? A more competitive Connacht team is more important than a 7s

5 aside football and pitch and putt aren't used to produce international players in their sports I dont see why 7s should be any different.

Josh Lewsey.
Paul Sackey.
Joe Rokocoko.
Lomu.
Cullen.
Eric Rush.
Any amount of Wallabies.

All came from 7s.

Most of the consistantly successful (which by definition excludes us) unions recognise the 7s game as an effective development for back 3 players.

Also, futsal is actually fairly extensively used to develop young players.
5-a-side is a training tool. Not to mention the apple vs oranges aspect of that comparison.
And pitch and putt has no relevance to the conversation.

guapos · 09-12-2009 4:47pm

All great players i agree but i think our back 3 has been developed just fine without playing 7s. Kearney and Fitzgerald wouldn't have got the same amount of playing time for Leinster if they had been off playing 7s and wouldnt be the players they are now. Why spend money on 7s when our best chance of developing young players (Connacht) is under funded?

chupacabra · 09-12-2009 5:32pm

guapos wrote: »

All great players i agree but i think our back 3 has been developed just fine without playing 7s. Kearney and Fitzgerald wouldn't have got the same amount of playing time for Leinster if they had been off playing 7s and wouldnt be the players they are now. Why spend money on 7s when our best chance of developing young players (Connacht) is under funded?

As stevo said, for young guys like Conway, sevens would be invaluable experience for them in their development.

sock puppet · 09-12-2009 9:37pm

guapos wrote: »

All great players i agree but i think our back 3 has been developed just fine without playing 7s. Kearney and Fitzgerald wouldn't have got the same amount of playing time for Leinster if they had been off playing 7s and wouldnt be the players they are now. Why spend money on 7s when our best chance of developing young players (Connacht) is under funded?

To be fair pretty much all of our wingers are converted fullbacks or centres. The handling of our forwards is also very poor. That's something that can't be fixed by investing in Connacht. 7s would help with those problems though.

padser · 10-12-2009 10:48am

jayteecork wrote: »

All the 6 nations teams were there, the tri-nations, Argentina, 7s regs like Samoa and Fiji, but also teams like Kenya, USA and Zimbabwe.
But no Ireland.

So it's either a good idea, or every other rugby playing nation on the planet is wrong....

Yup - we should have definitely have a 7s team

toomevara · 10-12-2009 10:59am

I really can't see any downside to having a sevens set-up. Its a fabulous way to get players comfortable with the concept of space and creativity, both aspects of the game which are sorely in need of promotion. It builds up stamina and fitness and essentially encourages/promotes the development of the skills which are crucial to the playing of rugby in the modern era.

It also allows players to play in the international arena in high quality fixtures against some seriously high quality opposition. I mean , as I've said before, if Kenya can do it why in the name of God cant we? No excuses, lets get in there and get competing.

Theta · 10-12-2009 11:43am

guapos wrote: »

All great players i agree but i think our back 3 has been developed just fine without playing 7s. Kearney and Fitzgerald wouldn't have got the same amount of playing time for Leinster if they had been off playing 7s and wouldnt be the players they are now. Why spend money on 7s when our best chance of developing young players (Connacht) is under funded?

More players playing rugby in proper competition means more players to choose from for a national side.

And I doubt you will stretch things to thin with having a national sevens team.

jayteecork · 10-12-2009 12:20pm

Could also be Ireland's best non-boxing shot at a medal at the next Olympics.

anonymous_joe · 10-12-2009 12:44pm

jayteecork wrote: »

Could also be Ireland's best non-boxing shot at a medal at the next Olympics.

Or Equestrian.

It's madness that we don't have a proper team.

Podge_irl · 11-12-2009 3:00am

toomevara wrote: »

I really can't see any downside to having a sevens set-up.

Neither can I. But if, funding wise, its a choice between the strong A team schedule we have and a 7s team, I'f pick the A team schedule every tine.

irishbucsfan · 11-12-2009 3:15am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Neither can I. But if, funding wise, its a choice between the strong A team schedule we have and a 7s team, I'f pick the A team schedule every tine.

Absolutely. I'd love to see the 7s team given a little more support but it should come behinf the A team in the hierarchy of player development in my opinion.

anonymous_joe · 11-12-2009 3:31am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Neither can I. But if, funding wise, its a choice between the strong A team schedule we have and a 7s team, I'f pick the A team schedule every tine.

Scotland manage to afford both and their Unions much poorer than ours.

toomevara · 11-12-2009 8:34am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Neither can I. But if, funding wise, its a choice between the strong A team schedule we have and a 7s team, I'f pick the A team schedule every tine.

Agree 100%, but for the life of me can't see why it needs to be an either-or.

AdeT · 11-12-2009 9:58am

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Scotland manage to afford both and their Unions much poorer than ours.

They do, and they are poorer BUT they're also 5 places behind us in the world rankings...

Saying that, I think a 7s team would be a great addition to our international representation. Younger lads would love the opportunity to travel the world and play against some of the fastest and most skillful rugby players in the world. The experience they'd gain would be invaluable.

Podge_irl · 11-12-2009 11:26am

toomevara wrote: »

Agree 100%, but for the life of me can't see why it needs to be an either-or.

Me neither, but it does seem to be the line constantly trotted out by the IRFU, though I don't know how much merit it has in reality.

spank_inferno · 11-12-2009 12:13pm

Again I dont see why it has to be an either/or situation either.

Repayments for Landsdown road asside, the coffers of the IRFU have surely never been better.

Of course other areas need funding like the A team & Connaught.
But if Scotland can do it, why cant we!

OldJay · 11-12-2009 12:47pm

spank_inferno wrote: »

Again I dont see why it has to be an either/or situation either

Its not.
You'll see what is planned for Sevens during the season next year.

spank_inferno wrote: »

if Scotland can do it, why cant we!

Scotland: Fewer professional players & staff (development, active and administrative), smaller infrastructure, greater government funding, fully owned and paid-up stadium.

Theta · 11-12-2009 12:57pm

Justind wrote: »

Its not.
You'll see what is planned for Sevens during the season next year.

What do you know we dont?

d'Oracle · 11-12-2009 1:01pm

guapos wrote: »

Why spend money on 7s when our best chance of developing young players (Connacht) is under funded?

I totally disagree with the Connaught as nursery arguement.

1) Its taking the piss out of connaught rugby and its supporters/

2) Bar Keatly and the short, short tenure of Flannery there, when has it been done? Why is Felix Jones in Munster not getting his game, if connaught is some breeding ground for talent?

Its a dead rubber IMO.

d'Oracle · 11-12-2009 1:03pm

The other thing about 7's is its frickin great.

IMO far more entertaining than the 15man game as it is stands.

Theta · 11-12-2009 1:07pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

IMO far more entertaining than the 15man game as it is stands.

I dont know about that now, its a different type or game and provides a different kind of entertainment to me.

bamboozle · 11-12-2009 1:11pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

I totally disagree with the Connaught as nursery arguement.

1) Its taking the piss out of connaught rugby and its supporters/

2) Bar Keatly and the short, short tenure of Flannery there, when has it been done? Why is Felix Jones in Munster not getting his game, if connaught is some breeding ground for talent?

Its a dead rubber IMO.

Fionn Car, Cronin, Jackman, McCormack, Des Dillon even Victor Costello have all beneffited from playing with Connacht

muscleshirt · 23-03-2012 4:29pm

jayteecork wrote: »

Was watching the 7s action in Dubai on telly.
All the 6 nations teams were there, the tri-nations, Argentina, 7s regs like Samoa and Fiji, but also teams like Kenya, USA and Zimbabwe.
But no Ireland.

With 7s getting into the Olympics and Irish rugby currently on a massive high I thought this situation most strange.

Anyone know what the story is?

(Or maybe it's cause Denis McBride retired, lol)

still no policy from the irfu regarding entering 7s in 2016 olympics
hong kong 7s coming up every rugby nation repesented
we need to prepare now...we are sleeping just like the th prop situation
alex cuthbert has come from the 7s in wales..irish rugby deserve a chance at olympic selection..suits wake up

ormond lad · 23-03-2012 4:42pm

muscleshirt wrote: »

still no policy from the irfu regarding entering 7s in 2016 olympics
hong kong 7s coming up every rugby nation repesented
we need to prepare now...we are sleeping just like the th prop situation
alex cuthbert has come from the 7s in wales..irish rugby deserve a chance at olympic selection..suits wake up

Its not only the top brass in IRFU who need to wake up, its the provincial and regional youths and schools committees who need to do something

provincial and all ireland clubs and schools competitions would be great additions to season either at the start of the season before the leagues start up or at the end of the season after the youths cups to end the underage rugby year

Market them and turn finals into big day out, could be a great idea

its_phil · 23-03-2012 4:48pm

ormond lad wrote: »

Its not only the top brass in IRFU who need to wake up, its the provincial and regional youths and schools committees who need to do something

provincial and all ireland clubs and schools competitions would be great additions to season either at the start of the season before the leagues start up or at the end of the season after the youths cups to end the underage rugby year

Market them and turn finals into big day out, could be a great idea

Theres actually a schools 7s tournament on tomorrow in Terenure featuring all the big teams in Leinster.

http://umbrella7s.ie/

CatFromHue · 23-03-2012 4:51pm

It was my understanding that there are club sevens tournaments in Ireland just that they tend to run after the 15's season has ended, not concurrently.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 23-03-2012 4:59pm

its_phil wrote: »

Theres actually a schools 7s tournament on tomorrow in Terenure featuring all the big teams in Leinster.

http://umbrella7s.ie/

Joe Schmidt and a number of Leinster players have commited themselves to being in attendance.

muscleshirt · 23-03-2012 5:04pm

its_phil wrote: »

Theres actually a schools 7s tournament on tomorrow in Terenure featuring all the big teams in Leinster.

http://umbrella7s.ie/

these are token/novelty events a more serious approach is needed
matt williams has been propagating this for a long time .frank quinn in emerald rugby has also been saying we need to form some squads with the intention of entering some irb events ,you need to do this now not 12 months before the olympics and the then start blaming the players
some squads could be formed fron the youths/20/clubs in conjuction with the academys at the moment and train some specialist 7s coaches
we don't even have a course for 7s coaches most unions do

JustinDee · 23-03-2012 5:10pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

It was my understanding that there are club sevens tournaments in Ireland just that they tend to run after the 15's season has ended, not concurrently.

The Club Sevens details are currently being sent to clubs for registration. They will take place by way of provincial events on April 28th (Sportsground, DLSP, Bruff, Belf Quins) with the All-Ireland taking place on May 12th at Dubarry Park.
This year sees also the addition of underage Sevens in each provincial event with seperate comps for both boys and girls.

Also other developments going on that will be announced in April.

muscleshirt · 23-03-2012 5:15pm

JustinDee wrote: »

The Club Sevens details are currently being sent to clubs for registration. They will take place by way of provincial events on April 28th (Sportsground, DLSP, Bruff, Belf Quins) with the All-Ireland taking place on May 12th at Dubarry Park.
This year sees also the addition of underage Sevens in each provincial event with seperate comps for both boys and girls.

Also other developments going on that will be announced in April.

poor turn out for last years comp generally..this years under age only goes to privincial , half arsed as usual

ormond lad · 23-03-2012 5:32pm

muscleshirt wrote: »

poor turn out for last years comp generally..this years under age only goes to privincial , half arsed as usual

At least there is a provincial underage 7s comp, when i was underage the east region in munster was the only region to run 7 or 10 a sides and this season has had, or will have, a 7 or 10 a side comp at 15s/17s and 19s

Not having an all ireland 7s isnt that big a deal unless its properly organised, marketed and every club participates

its_phil · 23-03-2012 5:35pm

muscleshirt wrote: »

these are token/novelty events a more serious approach is needed

Tournament organised with 14 of best schools teams in Leinster organised and its a novelty event? They are planning on it being an annual event and it's only in it's first year, so who are you to judge it as a novelty or non-serious event?

This is a great idea to expose young players to 7s rugby. I can't think of any better way to give exposure to players at school, who make up the bulk of Ireland sides, a chance to play 7s. If anything these are the guys who will most likely be at Rio 2016. At the end of the day XV's will always be the bread and butter of those schools and the rugby population in Ireland. Hopefully Munster and Ulster (or they might have one?) follow suit and set up a similar tournament.

7s is not developing the way people like in this country because there isn't a team to follow on a national level. Seeing teams like Guyana and the Philippines on the 7s circuit, just makes a mockery of the fact we dont even enter a team into London or Edinburgh rounds. Credit to the IRFU for trying to develop the game with their competitions which will help but a team on the national level is vital.

JustinDee · 23-03-2012 5:38pm

muscleshirt wrote: »

poor turn out for last years comp generally..this years under age only goes to privincial , half arsed as usual

I don't think the clubs participating would appreciate that comment. I ran the Leinster and Ulster events and the All-Ireland. Pretty good turnout in those.

If a club doesn't want to participate then that's their call. This year, seniors will definitely be well in attendance. Junior clubs are a different matter.
The underage event is aimed at a massive playerbase, covering schools and clubs so I wouldn't call that "half-arsed" either.

ormond lad · 23-03-2012 5:40pm

its_phil wrote: »

Tournament organised with 14 of best schools teams in Leinster organised and its a novelty event? They are planning on it being an annual event and it's only in it's first year, so who are you to judge it as a novelty or non-serious event?

This is a great idea to expose young players to 7s rugby. I can't think of any better way to give exposure to players at school, who make up the bulk of Ireland sides, a chance to play 7s. If anything these are the guys who will most likely be at Rio 2016. At the end of the day XV's will always be the bread and butter of those schools and the rugby population in Ireland. Hopefully Munster and Ulster (or they might have one?) follow suit and set up a similar tournament.

7s is not developing the way people like in this country because there isn't a team to follow on a national level. Seeing teams like Guyana and the Philippines on the 7s circuit, just makes a mockery of the fact we dont even enter a team into London or Edinburgh rounds. Credit to the IRFU for trying to develop the game with their competitions but a team on the national level is vital.

If they could expand it to include other non tradtional rugby playing schools in future years it would be great.
In Munster the first year they did a munster 7s at 15s level all the schools were in the same competition and Nenagh won the title beating several of the A schools in the process, the following year the competition was split into 2 sections the 10-12 A and B schools in 1 section and everyone else in the other.

its_phil · 23-03-2012 5:44pm

ormond lad wrote: »

If they could expand it to include other non tradtional rugby playing schools in future years it would be great.
In Munster the first year they did a munster 7s at 15s level all the schools were in the same competition and Nenagh won the title beating several of the A schools in the process, the following year the competition was split into 2 sections the 10-12 A and B schools in 1 section and everyone else in the other.

It is a sport that would be good to target the non-rugby regions because you wont need a squad of 23. You'll need about 12 which is easier to manage in terms of getting numbers together

Fight_Night · 23-03-2012 5:47pm

guapos wrote: »

I used to think that we should invest in a 7s team but theres a few things that have changed my mind

1. We have produced our best ever team without any 7s
2. Where is the money going to come from? A more competitive Connacht team is more important than a 7s

5 aside football and pitch and putt aren't used to produce international players in their sports I dont see why 7s should be any different.

Don't know a thing about golf, but all the best footballers started by playing 5 a side football in the street, Futsal is where all the players in Brazil start off in. I'd assume there could be the same reward reaped by 7s rugby, although dunno if we have the pool to have a competitive team in both. I think it could be a nice way to attract any speedsters that aren't quite ready for the physicality of 15s but still want to try out rugby.

muscleshirt · 23-03-2012 5:52pm

ormond lad wrote: »

If they could expand it to include other non tradtional rugby playing schools in future years it would be great.
In Munster the first year they did a munster 7s at 15s level all the schools were in the same competition and Nenagh won the title beating several of the A schools in the process, the following year the competition was split into 2 sections the 10-12 A and B schools in 1 section and everyone else in the other.

your right the schools route is the way to go,it could spread the game to every corner,no need for AB schools almost every school could put out a sevens team good chance to spread the game and not keep it elite,also enough development officers around to organise it
it will be hard to sell club 7s at under age in april/may with GAA season
unless it leads to something worthwhile

Podge_irl · 23-03-2012 5:54pm

7s is simply a different sport from 15s. A reasonable number of players in NZ/Aus come "through" 7s on their way to 15s, but I don't think it does anything necessarily for their development. They are all players who would have made it anyway. The vast majority of 7s players will remain purely 7s players. The Olympics 7s teams will very quickly become made up of 7s specialists with maybe the odd big name thrown in.

That said, I think the 7s event at the Olympics has the potential to be genuinely fantastic, as it's a great sport for a day out. Don't expect Ireland to be in it though.

muscleshirt · 23-03-2012 6:07pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

7s is simply a different sport from 15s. A reasonable number of players in NZ/Aus come "through" 7s on their way to 15s, but I don't think it does anything necessarily for their development. They are all players who would have made it anyway. The vast majority of 7s players will remain purely 7s players. The Olympics 7s teams will very quickly become made up of 7s specialists with maybe the odd big name thrown in.

That said, I think the 7s event at the Olympics has the potential to be genuinely fantastic, as it's a great sport for a day out. Don't expect Ireland to be in it though.

why not? the irfu voted for 7s to be included in the olympics
do they not get monies from the sports council? tax payers money
they have a duty to irish rugby playing kids who dream of been an olympian

Podge_irl · 23-03-2012 6:11pm

muscleshirt wrote: »

why not? the irfu voted for 7s to be included in the olympics
do they not get monies from the sports council? tax payers money
they have a duty to irish rugby playing kids who dream of been an olympian

Because Ireland don't play 7s and aren't going to be good enough to qualify. The qualification will be regional so Europe will only have maybe three teams - that's the UK and France and then a shoot-out between ourselves and Portugal I guess. If Portugal continue to actually play 7s and we continue to ignore it, then they could well pip Ireland to the post.

muscleshirt · 23-03-2012 6:23pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because Ireland don't play 7s and aren't going to be good enough to qualify. The qualification will be regional so Europe will only have maybe three teams - that's the UK and France and then a shoot-out between ourselves and Portugal I guess. If Portugal continue to actually play 7s and we continue to ignore it, then they could well pip Ireland to the post.

well if we keep ignoring it we arel never going to be good enough that is not a good enough reason , every rugby union have a serious 7s program
are we right and everyone else wrong?

JustinDee · 23-03-2012 7:01pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because Ireland don't play 7s and aren't going to be good enough to qualify. The qualification will be regional so Europe will only have maybe three teams - that's the UK and France and then a shoot-out between ourselves and Portugal I guess. If Portugal continue to actually play 7s and we continue to ignore it, then they could well pip Ireland to the post.

Qualification criteria for olympics are actually yet to be finalised.

Podge_irl · 23-03-2012 10:09pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Qualification criteria for olympics are actually yet to be finalised.

Sorry, I was making an assumption (which obviously may turn out to be wrong). I'd be surprised if Europe had more then 3 places. Its a 12 team tournament yeah?

JustinDee · 23-03-2012 10:12pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sorry, I was making an assumption (which obviously may turn out to be wrong). I'd be surprised if Europe had more then 3 places. Its a 12 team tournament yeah?

We'll know in 2013.

CatFromHue · 23-03-2012 11:24pm

I was looking through the Wales and Scotland sevens squads and they seem to be made up of a mix of club players and development/academy players. The club players tended to be a bit older and so wouldn't really be in the development bracket. A few years ago our academy's wouldn't have been as developed as they are now so I think we'd now have a good selection of players to choose from.

I'm not really too pushed about the Olympics to be honest. I don't view rugby or sevens as Olympic sports and while it may be nice to have a team that's all it would be. In athletics the Olympics is a big deal and always has been. In rugby though we have our RWC's, our 6 Nations and Tri Nations, our Heineken Cups and Super rugby cups and they'd be much more important to me as a player.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 24-03-2012 8:27pm

Anyone got a result for the Leinster Schools 7s competition today?

Irish Rugby and Sevens

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