Shaggy as a pundit

padser · 26-02-2012 1:02pm #1

Apologies if there is already a thread on this or if it's been covered in detail in the match thread but did anyone else find Shaggy to be a great addition to the RTE panel?

The utter contempt he showed for Hook and the way he didn't let him away with some of his drivel was priceless. There is a great moment during half time where the camera pans out from Hook and Shaggy is rolling his head in disgust.

Now if only RTE would get rid of pope, hook and McGuirke and replace them with Shaggy, O Shea and Matt Williams I might actually watch RTE coverage.....

profitius · 26-02-2012 1:04pm

I think hes good. He is smart and looks on the bright side of things.

Fishooks12 · 26-02-2012 1:06pm

I seem to be the only one that likes Hook. Since I moved to Spain he's the thing I miss most about February weekends!

Obviously he talks out his hole a lot of the time but he needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Give me him over Inverdale and co anyday.

Shaggy is very good though in what I've seen of him before

Flincher · 26-02-2012 1:06pm

I find his tone a little condescending at times, but his analysis in general seems spot on.

ray jay · 26-02-2012 1:31pm

My one reservation is that he's still a member of the Leinster squad so he can't be too critical of team mates.

Tox56 · 26-02-2012 2:04pm

Same as above, current players can't really make great pundits, but when he retires I'm sure he will be very good.

WeeBushy · 26-02-2012 2:08pm

Has the making of a great pundit imo. He's very articulate, and when he (sadly) retires he won't be as restricted from being critical of his team mates. Offers a different, more informed, outlook to the bluster of Hook, Pope and McGuirk which can only be a good thing.

wp_rathead · 26-02-2012 2:11pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Same as above, current players can't really make great pundits, but when he retires I'm sure he will be very good.

Frankie Sheehan:(

Higher · 26-02-2012 2:27pm

The best pundit in Ireland and the UK for that matter from what I have seen.

thebaz · 26-02-2012 2:37pm

I think it is good to get a fresh take on the game, especially from someone well connected to the setup - Hook , however hard he tries , will never be a dunphy , Eamon was original , Hook is just a bore , well past his sell by

MungBean · 26-02-2012 2:44pm

I think he's a good pundit, he has a good technical insight and counterbalances Hook's nonsense pretty well.

I dont think the fact that he's still a Leinster player detracts from his punditry at all. I think it makes him better for it because it forces him to be diplomatic so he cant be accused of being blatantly biased like Frankie which makes him more credible.

He does get a bit tongue tied now and again but I'm sure its not easy trying to condense your opinions into a 15 second answer. A panel of Shaggy, Conor and Pope would be great. Pope is a decent analyst I think but Hook has dragged him down to his level over the years. Take the troll that is George Hook out of the panel and I think we could have great insight, and disagreements on the core issues rather than disagreement for the sake of TV at the expense of everything else.

boynesider · 26-02-2012 3:22pm

Shaggy is a sound man.

But as a fellow Meath man and a near enough neighbour of his I haven't a clue were hes got that accent from! At least the likes of Kearney can use the excuse that they went off to boarding school

its_phil · 26-02-2012 3:56pm

boynesider wrote: »

Shaggy is a sound man.

But as a fellow Meath man and a near enough neighbour of his I haven't a clue were hes got that accent from! At least the likes of Kearney can use the excuse that they went off to boarding school

You trying being mates with Brian O'Driscoll so! :pac:

yosser hughes · 26-02-2012 4:56pm

boynesider wrote: »

Shaggy is a sound man.

But as a fellow Meath man and a near enough neighbour of his I haven't a clue were hes got that accent from! At least the likes of Kearney can use the excuse that they went off to boarding school

I think he can be thankful he has lost the Meath accent:D
In fairness,how long has he been living in and earning his living in Dublin?

skregs · 26-02-2012 5:55pm

boynesider wrote: »

Shaggy is a sound man.

But as a fellow Meath man and a near enough neighbour of his I haven't a clue were hes got that accent from! At least the likes of Kearney can use the excuse that they went off to boarding school

Are his parents not English? At least they lived in England for years before he was born, so he probably got it from them

WeeBushy · 26-02-2012 7:16pm

skregs wrote: »

Are his parents not English? At least they lived in England for years before he was born, so he probably got it from them

It's not an English accent he has at all, rather a south dublin one.

skregs · 26-02-2012 7:25pm

WeeBushy wrote: »

It's not an English accent he has at all, rather a south dublin one.

I know, but its probably why he hasn't a Meath accent. I remember an interview with his sister talking about growing up in London before moving to Ireland

Downlinz · 26-02-2012 7:39pm

Failed the first test of punditry by not being impartial. His promotion of Reddan and defence D'arcy was somewhat extreme and OTT which led Hook to subtly hint about bias. His interjection mid-match to criticise Murray was particularly inappropriate.
I don't think RTE will have him back on for an Irish game while he remains a player.

durkadurka · 26-02-2012 7:49pm

Those comments were all fair.
What's inappropriate about saying mid match that Reddan has made a difference when it's blatantly obvious?

boynesider · 26-02-2012 7:56pm

Downlinz wrote: »

Failed the first test of punditry by not being impartial. His promotion of Reddan and defence D'arcy was somewhat extreme and OTT which led Hook to subtly hint about bias. His interjection mid-match to criticise Murray was particularly inappropriate.
I don't think RTE will have him back on for an Irish game while he remains a player.

I thought he actually stood up for Murray tbh and you can hardly expect him to criticise his team mates.

And the accent is definitely not the one he had when he was going for Meath minor trials all those years ago. I can confirm that, it used to be as thick as Shi'ite

MungBean · 26-02-2012 7:56pm

Downlinz wrote: »

Failed the first test of punditry by not being impartial. His promotion of Reddan and defence D'arcy was somewhat extreme and OTT which led Hook to subtly hint about bias. His interjection mid-match to criticise Murray was particularly inappropriate.
I don't think RTE will have him back on for an Irish game while he remains a player.

Seemed pretty impartial to me, was pretty clear to anyone who knew anything about rugby that Murray was giving slow ball.

Ignoring stuff like that isnt being impartial its being a shít pundit. Anyone with a basic grasp of the game can sit in the studio and analyse a game without going into specifics. He pointed out the issues at SH and when Reddan came on he showed just how much those problems were holding Ireland back.

He also defended Trimble and talked up POM, he didnt ignore everyone else in favour of talking up his mates he was just giving honest opinions which were pretty on the ball as far as I seen.

Neil3030 · 26-02-2012 8:22pm

I think a lot of people confuse "impartial" with "never criticising or praising anyone."

testicle · 26-02-2012 8:26pm

He looks utter ridiculous with the dyed hair!

Bearcat · 26-02-2012 8:28pm

George knew he was dealing with a different kettle of fish with shaggy as against Frankie. I cracked up watching shaggy giving it beans outgunning George.

.....and he's a damn good commentator too!

Fishooks12 · 26-02-2012 8:36pm

dyed hair?! Pics?

durkadurka · 26-02-2012 9:28pm

Oh yeah, looked well dyed!

Ardillaun · 26-02-2012 9:28pm

WeeBushy wrote: »

It's not an English accent he has at all, rather a south dublin one.

As someone who grew up partly in England, I'm struck when I return to Ireland these days how anglicized and 'posh' the SD accent has become over the last 25 years. A lot of the younger people sound more English than I do.

Lapsed Catholic · 27-02-2012 1:02pm

MungBean wrote: »

Seemed pretty impartial to me, was pretty clear to anyone who knew anything about rugby that Murray was giving slow ball.

Ignoring stuff like that isnt being impartial its being a shít pundit. Anyone with a basic grasp of the game can sit in the studio and analyse a game without going into specifics. He pointed out the issues at SH and when Reddan came on he showed just how much those problems were holding Ireland back.

He also defended Trimble and talked up POM, he didnt ignore everyone else in favour of talking up his mates he was just giving honest opinions which were pretty on the ball as far as I seen.

I don't often agree with Kidney but even he said that the supply of ball from the pack had improved when Reddan came on. The introduction of Ryan and O'Mahony had a bigger impact than that of Reddan.

smurphy29 · 27-02-2012 1:07pm

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

I don't often agree with Kidney but even he said that the supply of ball from the pack had improved when Reddan came on. The introduction of Ryan and O'Mahony had a bigger impact than that of Reddan.

Come on Lapsed, of course Kidney said that. He was hardly going to hang his 22 year old scrummie out to dry, was he? Anyone with eyes in their head could see Murray was having a poor game.

Leslie91 · 27-02-2012 1:09pm

testicle wrote: »

He looks utter ridiculous with the dyed hair!

Must say I noticed that too... I must be a metrosexual then. F me.

Lapsed Catholic · 27-02-2012 1:17pm

smurphy29 wrote: »

Come on Lapsed, of course Kidney said that. He was hardly going to hang his 22 year old scrummie out to dry, was he? Anyone with eyes in their head could see Murray was having a poor game.

Murray didn't have his finest day at the office and Reddan is a quality player BUT the s/h can only play with the ball that is presented to him. Italy were worn down by the time Reddan appeared and the supply of ball had improved. I also believe that Murray is playing to instructions from the side line and made no breaks that I can remember. I think that he'll stay with Murray forthe French game given his strength and size over Reddan but he has to pick a genuine 7 and Ryan in the 2nd row. Heaslip was outplayed by Parisse, (Heaslip is a Lion, that shouldn't happen) and O'Brien was anomynous. The backrow is unbalanced. Ferris at 6, O'Brien at 8 and O'Mahony at 7.

buck65 · 27-02-2012 1:22pm

I find Shaggy hard to watch, he is very slow to criticise Irish players, selectors , policies etc. He's still playing and sometimes when things are obvious he won't say them if they're critical.
Good to hear he had a pop at Murray, it's more of this we need, but I can't bear him at the moment.
Sheehan is truly atrocious too, Quinlan is quite good but maybe too relaxed in his delivery a bit like Murray.

MungBean · 27-02-2012 2:07pm

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Murray didn't have his finest day at the office and Reddan is a quality player BUT the s/h can only play with the ball that is presented to him. Italy were worn down by the time Reddan appeared and the supply of ball had improved.

Murray got decent ball in the first half but took the momentum out of it himself. Often times he stopped to look left and right and then took a step. Reddan went straight in knowing where he was going to send the ball, ball got out fast to Sexton who had time and momentum to use it. I'm sure the fact Italy were worn down helped but even with clean ball Murray was slow and indecisive.

I also believe that Murray is playing to instructions from the side line and made no breaks that I can remember

He made a few unnecessary attempts to carry not break. Reddan utilised the space around him because he's an very very fast thinker and is pretty experienced. Murray was slow to react, his indecisiveness and inability to get his receivers on the front foot limited everyone else around him.

. I think that he'll stay with Murray forthe French game given his strength and size over Reddan but he has to pick a genuine 7 and Ryan in the 2nd row. Heaslip was outplayed by Parisse, (Heaslip is a Lion, that shouldn't happen) and O'Brien was anomynous. The backrow is unbalanced. Ferris at 6, O'Brien at 8 and O'Mahony at 7.

I cant see him sticking with Murray, France wont tire so waiting until the 50th minute to play is as good as forfeiting. I agree Ryan should start, whatever doubt their was about this before I think its clear enough now too that he's a level above DOC. Parisse is an incredible player who routinely outplays his opposite number and gets man of the match from the losing side, I dont see what Heaslip being a Lion has to do with it. He has a decent game, got through a good bit of work like SOB and Ferris. If they had more momentum in the first half I'm sure they would have racked up a few carries to add a gloss to their performances but they were not poor or anonymous.

Lapsed Catholic · 27-02-2012 2:13pm

Parisse is playing for a third tier team yet managed to outplay the current Lion, Ireland and Leinster No.8 His status as a Lion is very important. Parisse led by example, Heaslip was rather anomynous.

MungBean · 27-02-2012 2:25pm

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Parisse is playing for a third tier team yet managed to outplay the current Lion, Ireland and Leinster No.8 His status as a Lion is very important. Parisse led by example, Heaslip was rather anomynous.

So the fact that Parisse is Italian means he cant be better than Heaslip ? Parisse led by example because he was captain, it was his role to lead. It wasnt Heaslips role to lead the team or to take all responsibility on himself as Parisse does. Heaslip is a cog in the Irish rugby team, Parisse IS the Italian rugby team. He wasnt anonymous he worked hard, got a good few turnovers and didnt show any weaknesses. I'm sure he'd love to get the ball in space and have a go but he cant if he doesnt get the ball and the space which not many people did because the ball was so slow in the first 50 minutes.

Tox56 · 27-02-2012 2:27pm

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Parisse is playing for a third tier team yet managed to outplay the current Lion, Ireland and Leinster No.8 His status as a Lion is very important. Parisse led by example, Heaslip was rather anomynous.

Heaslip has been in fantastic form this season, but because he isn't making barnstorming runs anymore he is not as visible, it doesn't mean he isn't playing well. When you have SOB and Ferris in the backrow, Heaslip doesn't need to carry, whereas Parisse is far and away the most important player in the Italian team.

WeeBushy · 27-02-2012 2:28pm

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Parisse is playing for a third tier team yet managed to outplay the current Lion, Ireland and Leinster No.8 His status as a Lion is very important. Parisse led by example, Heaslip was rather anomynous.

Parisse is arguably the best No. 8 in the world. No shame whatsoever being second best to him. After most games the opposition No. 8 comes out second best against Parisse, he's an amzing rugby player.

smurphy29 · 27-02-2012 2:31pm

Thanks MungBean, great replies to that blather about Murray and Heaslip.

I am just loving this 'Genuine 7' nonsense right now. Can people stop peddling what they hear on RTE?

For the record: we do not have a genuine 7 of international class. Peter O'Mahony is not a genuine 7. He is a 6, who can play 7 - like SOB. The best genuine 7s in the country are Shane Jennings and Niall Ronan (injured). Play Jenno if you want a 'Genuine Seven'. Can we stop this nonsense?

Sorry for dragging us off topic. Shaggy is a terrific pundit, who "needs to be given more gametime" to be "developed", to use two boards stock phrases.

prospect · 27-02-2012 2:33pm

Criticising his hair and accent.

This is the rugby forum, please spare us the socceresque soap opera commentary.

I liked Shane's efforts, mostly because he outshone Hook. But I do thing he would benefit if he wasn't actively affiliated with the players on the pitch.

I'd love to see Horgan and a similarly talented commentator from Munster (Quinlan maybe) along with O'Shea.

WeeBushy · 27-02-2012 2:38pm

prospect wrote: »

Criticising his hair and accent.

This is the rugby forum, please spare us the socceresque soap opera commentary.

I liked Shane's efforts, mostly because he outshone Hook. But I do thing he would benefit if he wasn't actively affiliated with the players on the pitch.

I'd love to see Horgan and a similarly talented commentator from Munster (Quinlan maybe) along with O'Shea.

Completely agree. I think Quinlan is another very good pundit. Himself, Horgan, and O'Shea would be a great lineup. Just need someone to replace McGuirk, Williams anyone?

bamboozle · 27-02-2012 2:41pm

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Murray didn't have his finest day at the office and Reddan is a quality player BUT the s/h can only play with the ball that is presented to him. Italy were worn down by the time Reddan appeared and the supply of ball had improved. I also believe that Murray is playing to instructions from the side line and made no breaks that I can remember. I think that he'll stay with Murray forthe French game given his strength and size over Reddan but he has to pick a genuine 7 and Ryan in the 2nd row. Heaslip was outplayed by Parisse, (Heaslip is a Lion, that shouldn't happen) and O'Brien was anomynous. The backrow is unbalanced. Ferris at 6, O'Brien at 8 and O'Mahony at 7.

should we change the jersey colour to red also?

Murray was dreadful

Neil3030 · 27-02-2012 2:45pm

WeeBushy wrote: »

Completely agree. I think Quinlan is another very good pundit. Himself, Horgan, and O'Shea would be a great lineup. Just need someone to replace McGuirk, Williams anyone?

The next anchor will be Dara O'Brian (sp?), I'd say. Montrose likes to keep things in house. I like the look of your lineup though; at least until O'Shea takes the Ireland job!

Mr.Applepie · 27-02-2012 2:47pm

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Murray didn't have his finest day at the office and Reddan is a quality player BUT the s/h can only play with the ball that is presented to him. Italy were worn down by the time Reddan appeared and the supply of ball had improved. I also believe that Murray is playing to instructions from the side line and made no breaks that I can remember. I think that he'll stay with Murray forthe French game given his strength and size over Reddan but he has to pick a genuine 7 and Ryan in the 2nd row. Heaslip was outplayed by Parisse, (Heaslip is a Lion, that shouldn't happen) and O'Brien was anomynous. The backrow is unbalanced. Ferris at 6, O'Brien at 8 and O'Mahony at 7.

Murray was given the ball on a plate, he just took forever to do anything with it when he finally arrived at the ruck. Also look at the technique between Murray & Reddan. Murray always seems to stand up out of the ruck, then passes. Reddan actually passes from the base of the ruck.

Murray attempted to make plenty of breaks, that was part of his problem. He'd try and snipe, get swallowed up and not appear at the base of the ruck for 2 phases. By that point all the momentum would be gone. Murray sniped into traffic, Reddan only did it when there was space.

Parrise is probably the best 8 in the world and would walk onto nearly every team.

You do know POM is a 6 playing 7 and actually isn't a genuine 7?

Lapsed Catholic · 27-02-2012 3:07pm

Bamboozle, I don't support Munster so I couldn't give a continental what colour you suggest Murray wears.

To everyone else may I apologise for expressing my opinion on Murray and St.Jamie. Parisse, Picomloes and Harryordinary guy have all played him off the park in recent years. But I daren't say that.

bamboozle · 27-02-2012 3:14pm

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Bamboozle, I don't support Munster so I couldn't give a continental what colour you suggest Murray wears.

To everyone else may I apologise for expressing my opinion on Murray and St.Jamie. Parisse, Picomloes and Harryordinary guy have all played him off the park in recent years. But I daren't say that.

my apologies, however i wonder how anyone can, provincial loyalty aside, defend that performance from Murray while also knock Heaslip & SOB and suggest a novice & inexperienced 6 in POM as the solution to an unbalanced back row.

When did Picamoles outplay Heaslip? furthermore can you suggest a no. 8 who has not been outplayed by Parisee in recent years?

Heaslip's role in the Irish team has changed, its quiet simple, dont expect maurading runs from him as its not in his job description under DK.

Lapsed Catholic · 27-02-2012 3:19pm

bamboozle wrote: »

my apologies, however i wonder how anyone can, provincial loyalty aside, defend that performance from Murray while also knock Heaslip & SOB and suggest a novice & inexperienced 6 in POM as the solution to an unbalanced back row.

When did Picamoles outplay Heaslip? furthermore can you suggest a no. 8 who has not been outplayed by Parisee in recent years?

Heaslip's role in the Irish team has changed, its quiet simple, dont expect maurading runs from him as its not in his job description under DK.

Can you point out where I knocked SO'B? As to defending Murry, how can anyone, provincial loyalty aside, not criticise Heaslip for some of his performances over the last few years. Look back to the pre RWC game v France, Picomoles had Heaslip in his pocket. I agree re DK and his lack of game plan but did you ever think that Murray may also be playing to orders like Heaslip?

smurphy29 · 27-02-2012 3:27pm

Lapsed, would you give up the anti-Heaslip crusade. He has been one of Ireland's outstanding players over the last five years - durable, consistent, frequently outstanding. To go and cherrypick a handful of quiet games against him isn't going to stand up. The list of his good games would be much longer - the grand slam season and the november games which followed it, his superb performances away to England and France in 2010 and his outstanding effort against New Zealand later that year. Oh, and three weeks ago gainst Wales, when he was our best forward. To name but a few that spring to mind. He has outplayed all the names you mention.

bamboozle · 27-02-2012 3:29pm

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Can you point out where I knocked SO'B? As to defending Murry, how can anyone, provincial loyalty aside, not criticise Heaslip for some of his performances over the last few years. Look back to the pre RWC game v France, Picomoles had Heaslip in his pocket. I agree re DK and his lack of game plan but did you ever think that Murray may also be playing to orders like Heaslip?

post no 31 in this thread you said SOB was anonymous. for argument sake i'll agree with you that Picamoles had heaslip in his pocket in august, by the same token heaslip had picamoles in his pocket in the HC semi final...DK's tactics for ireland have heaslip playing far closer to the action.

of course murray was playing to orders the same orders Reddan was playing to when he replaced Murray, the difference being Murray was hesitant and crabbing 2 steps before passing and was far far less decisive when on the pitch.

leftleg · 27-02-2012 3:32pm

Lapsed Catholic wrote: »

Bamboozle, I don't support Munster so I couldn't give a continental what colour you suggest Murray wears.

To everyone else may I apologise for expressing my opinion on Murray and St.Jamie. Parisse, Picomloes and Harryordinary guy have all played him off the park in recent years. But I daren't say that.

You know Murray; you just mentioned it in another thread; how can you give any impartial opinion on this; fwiw your opinion re Murray should be ignored based on the fact that hes one of your mates ffs!!

Lapsed Catholic · 27-02-2012 3:36pm

bamboozle wrote: »

post no 31 in this thread you said SOB was anonymous. for argument sake i'll agree with you that Picamoles had heaslip in his pocket in august, by the same token heaslip had picamoles in his pocket in the HC semi final...DK's tactics for ireland have heaslip playing far closer to the action.

of course murray was playing to orders the same orders Reddan was playing to when he replaced Murray, the difference being Murray was hesitant and crabbing 2 steps before passing and was far far less decisive when on the pitch.

I did indeed say he was anomynous, but I think I also said that I would play him at 8 with Ferris and O'Mahoney. (age is making me forgetful)

On the Heaslip and Murray topics lets agree to disagree otherwise we'll go around in circles for ever. If

Heaslip is picked aginst France I genuinely hope he is MOM, can't see it happening.

27-02-2012 3:50pm

im a munster fan and i think heaslip is a fantastic player bamboozle is absolutely right when he says his role has changed hes not making runs because sob and ferris are he is a very good player with a good head on his shoulders pom is going to get his chance but for now i think he is a superb 60th min sub or backup in case of injury

Shaggy as a pundit

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