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Half-baked Republican Presidential Fruitcakes (and fellow confections)

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    #2582
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    robindch wrote: »
    You've been warned once today already about the low standard of your posts, but it seems you didn't pay much attention to that warning.

    For the avoidance of doubt - if this low standard continues, one of your friendly moderators will be delivering you some clue-stick leadership.

    So I'm not entitled to label people who must proclaim their virtuousness and righteousness(so long as the media, the self proclaimed Vox populi are on their side) at every turn as regards Trump, as spineless? I dont recall any US politician engaging this level of political virtue signalling, no matter their body count in some foreign war, its sickening, to be frank.


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    #2583
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    So I'm not entitled [...]
    You've been asked to up the level of your debate which, for the most part, has been low and not really within the spirit of A+A.

    That means - less of the insults, finger pointing, fist-waving, right-wing virtue-signalling and the rest of it. In summary, try to pretend you're speaking with friends, rather than giving the appearance of discussing things with people you detest, whose opinions you can't stand.


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    #2584
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    So, I hear the Dalai Lama is a racist now.
    Dalai Lama says 'too many' refugees in Europe


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    #2585
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    That question came from the direction of the opposition benches. They seem to want to know what Taoiseach Enda Kenny's position is when it comes to Trump. His party previously had a welcome ceremony for him and since the American election Trump has alienated a great many people here in Ireland.
    Of course in political parlance the Taoiseach responded appropriately as I would expect most TD's to denounce Trump's electioneering.

    Over in Trump country they have very different concerns that affect their lives and one of those concerns is the Mexican issue so we might not like his bombastic personality nor do we like the behavior of the Assad Dynasty or Putin's Russia. It is not really a matter that relates to us here at home. We don't decide laws in other lands and that is the right way to go about it well at least that is my feeling.


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    #2586
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    That question came from the direction of the opposition benches. They seem to want to know what Taoiseach Enda Kenny's position is when it comes to Trump. His party previously had a welcome ceremony for him and since the American election Trump has alienated a great many people here in Ireland.
    Of course in political parlance the Taoiseach responded appropriately as I would expect most TD's to denounce Trump's electioneering.

    Over in Trump country they have very different concerns that affect their lives and one of those concerns is the Mexican issue so we might not like his bombastic personality nor do we like the behavior of the Assad Dynasty or Putin's Russia. It is not really a matter that relates to us here at home. We don't decide laws in other lands and that is the right way to go about it well at least that is my feeling.
    Most countries have " skin in the game" when it comes to the USA , hence we are fully entitled to comment as we see fit, even if such commentary is largely ignored


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    #2587
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Most countries have " skin in the game" when it comes to the USA , hence we are fully entitled to comment as we see fit, even if such commentary is largely ignored

    Comment and be laughed at by American media or get involved in another countries affairs. I'm not going to lecture Australia about it's immigration policy that is the job of the state parliaments and their jury system. Trump seems to be doing a really good job courting the Right wing bastions of America. This election campaign has already gone the next level in terms of dirt and slinging mud.


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    #2588
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Trump is coming over to kick Enda's ass.
    Mr Trump will be in the UK on the day of the Brexit referendum, and will be in Ireland during the same period as Mr Biden who is expected to visit Dublin, Louth and Mayo between the 21 and 26 June.
    Pressed earlier this week about his reaction to the businessman's controversial remarks on immigration, women and Muslims, Mr Kenny described his comments as "racist and dangerous" and said the American people had an alternative to vote for.
    Awkward :D
    Enda now has some back-tracking and grovelling to do.

    Speaking of political U-turns, Senator Ryan completes his.
    Mr. Trump said he was happy that Mr. Ryan had finally backed him. “I’m very pleased,” Mr. Trump said in an interview.


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    #2589
    Bristolscale7
    Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    Will Noonan be there to genuflect again when Trump gets off the plane? I guess not...



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    #2590
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    Speaking of political U-turns, Senator Ryan completes his.
    an expected move - but in all fairness, Ryan is a Republican, so most observers would probably expect rhetoric to triumph over substance, quality or indeed, honesty.


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    #2591
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    It is interesting all the hupla about Trump and Ireland. To be honest do you think the average American voter in Cleveland or De Moines gives a hoot what some Irish politician thinks about Trump. They don't, so don't let the small nation syndrome of what do the neighbours think of us cloud the judgment.

    Instead of the usual lazy criticism of Trump by our elected leaders, they should be more wary of his economic policies. The only war Trump wants to wage is a trade war with China. Hillary by the way is far more hawkish on foreign policy but we seem to ignore that little factoid. She also wants things to remain as is, free trade, globalisation and all that. It means that FDI in the form of multinationals will continue in part to invest in Ireland.

    So obviously from a self interested Irish point of view Hillary is the one to vote for. However, it does not take two much thought then to realise why Trump and his economic and trade policies are so popular and why the establishment is so hated. That would require some actual real debate and give credence to his voters. Instead the media by and large go for the lazy common denominators.


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    #2592
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,886 ✭✭✭Christy42


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    It is interesting all the hupla about Trump and Ireland. To be honest do you think the average American voter in Cleveland or De Moines gives a hoot what some Irish politician thinks about Trump. They don't, so don't let the small nation syndrome of what do the neighbours think of us cloud the judgment.

    Instead of the usual lazy criticism of Trump by our elected leaders, they should be more wary of his economic policies. The only war Trump wants to wage is a trade war with China. Hillary by the way is far more hawkish on foreign policy but we seem to ignore that little factoid. She also wants things to remain as is, free trade, globalisation and all that. It means that FDI in the form of multinationals will continue in part to invest in Ireland.

    So obviously from a self interested Irish point of view Hillary is the one to vote for. However, it does not take two much thought then to realise why Trump and his economic and trade policies are so popular and why the establishment is so hated. That would require some actual real debate and give credence to his voters. Instead the media by and large go for the lazy common denominators.

    Given some of his supporters here admit they have no idea what Trump would do in power how can you debate his policies. When he has some then debate can happen.


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    #2593
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    So obviously from a self interested Irish point of view Hillary is the one to vote for. However, it does not take two much thought then to realise why Trump and his economic and trade policies are so popular and why the establishment is so hated. That would require some actual real debate and give credence to his voters. Instead the media by and large go for the lazy common denominators.
    For his economic policy, he's hinted that he's willing to print money in order to fund the US public debt - i.e. to effectively finance public spending through printing money.

    To stir some "real debate" about his policies, what's your opinion on that?

    Not going to state my own opinion of that in this post (most people know it anyway), so as not to make this about me - I'm curious what Trump supporters view of that is.


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    #2594
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,859 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Given some of his supporters here admit they have no idea what Trump would do in power how can you debate his policies. When he has some then debate can happen.

    Nah, his fanboys will continue clucking their favourite insult.


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    #2595
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    It is interesting all the hupla about Trump and Ireland. To be honest do you think the average American voter in Cleveland or De Moines gives a hoot what some Irish politician thinks about Trump. They don't, so don't let the small nation syndrome of what do the neighbours think of us cloud the judgment.

    Instead of the usual lazy criticism of Trump by our elected leaders, they should be more wary of his economic policies. The only war Trump wants to wage is a trade war with China. Hillary by the way is far more hawkish on foreign policy but we seem to ignore that little factoid. She also wants things to remain as is, free trade, globalisation and all that. It means that FDI in the form of multinationals will continue in part to invest in Ireland.

    So obviously from a self interested Irish point of view Hillary is the one to vote for. However, it does not take two much thought then to realise why Trump and his economic and trade policies are so popular and why the establishment is so hated. That would require some actual real debate and give credence to his voters. Instead the media by and large go for the lazy common denominators.

    Trump is a puzzlement all his own. He wants to reshape American trade policies which irritate all the liberals yet at the same time this TTIP deal Europe is about to make is extremely controversial among the Far Left. So what will this Businessman who spent his entire life promoting free trade do when it comes to this enormous trade pact that may harm employment on both sides of the Atlantic.


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    #2596
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Given some of his supporters here admit they have no idea what Trump would do in power how can you debate his policies. When he has some then debate can happen.

    Well its clear that NAFTA is in his sights and that he wants to retain and stop outsourcing of American jobs to Mexico and China. Somewhat similar with Bernie actually. Trump and Bernie would be bad for Ireland on this point but you can certainly see why on this basis alone some people support them with even Bernie Sanders supporters looking to support him over Hilary come November. The left/right divide in the past really but most people especially the media still think in these terms. The new divide is between globalists vs nationalists.


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    #2597
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    this has been doing the rounds on Twitter

    offensive

    x-men_billboard_h_2016.jpg

    It's not offensive any more!

    CkJh3pLUkAAFwj_.jpg:large

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #2598
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,886 ✭✭✭Christy42


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Well its clear that NAFTA is in his sights and that he wants to retain and stop outsourcing of American jobs to Mexico and China. Somewhat similar with Bernie actually. Trump and Bernie would be bad for Ireland on this point but you can certainly see why on this basis alone some people support them with even Bernie Sanders supporters looking to support him over Hilary come November. The left/right divide in the past really but most people especially the media still think in these terms. The new divide is between globalists vs nationalists.

    Really because he has made a living out of trying to take advantage of globalism. Did he have an epiphany? If so he hasn't mentioned it.

    I do worry about the damage he could do if he pushes the Nationalistic agenda forward. Nationalistic pride was used in Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, North Korea to allow horrendous abuse. Obviously Trump doesn't seem as bad as the above but it is a bad road to go down.


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    #2599
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Really because he has made a living out of trying to take advantage of globalism. Did he have an epiphany? If so he hasn't mentioned it.

    I do worry about the damage he could do if he pushes the Nationalistic agenda forward. Nationalistic pride was used in Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, North Korea to allow horrendous abuse. Obviously Trump doesn't seem as bad as the above but it is a bad road to go down.

    In case you have not noticed in these neck of the woods there has been a rapid growth in this thing called populism. Socialists against water charges and property tax? Only in Ireland apparently but its a vote getter.

    Its populist to be anti-establishment and Trump is tapping into this. Globalisation has been very good for the American economy but there are some people losing out, mostly in the rust belt and there appears to be a growing class divide there, something that was exclusively European but now also American.

    People going on endlessly about Hitler and all are very misguided and really know nothing. Trump is like an American Berlusconi more than anything expect for bunga bunga parties he try and start a trade war.

    Nationalism also doesn't have to be bad and that is something the left does not get usually. Nationalism can be a positive thing for a nation and its people but the left shy away from it out of fear more then anything. They don't understand it and equate it to the nth degree of extremism, as if anyone who has a bit of pride in the nation they are from is some neo-Nazi. For instance without some pride in our nation should we just fully abdicate all rule to Europe and do away with the Dail? The motivation as a people to run things or try to run things ourselves stems from nationalism and I do no think every Irish person who shares this view is some neo Nazi.

    However, I do concede much like many things nationalism can be abused by the powers that be. I do not believe Trump wants to whip it up for war but I think he wants to whip it up for support for his campaign firstly, install a bit of pride secondly and lastly try some new economics, whatever they may be.

    Its all very confusing at the moment as we get used to the new paradigm. As an example Brexit. Labour are officially against it, yet many of their MP's and even its leader (privately) are for it, no matter what the PR gurus say. Of course this means that Jeremy Corybn and their far left supporters are on the same side as UKIP. Who would have thought. (of course people forget that in 1975 the Labour party abstained against campaigning for joining the EEC at the time because the majority of their MP's were against it.)

    As I said, globalists vs nationalists. The Bexit vote is about this and the November presidential election will be about this too.


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    #2600
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,886 ✭✭✭Christy42


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Nationalism also doesn't have to be bad and that is something the left does not get usually. Nationalism can be a positive thing for a nation and its people but the left shy away from it out of fear more then anything.

    Given that nationalism is always uses fear (at least this far) to promote itself that is a bit rich. Remember a lot of the reason for the increase in class divide is because of the Republicans that these disenfranchised voters have voted for.

    If you want to decrease the class divide then you need cheaper education and health care. Giving out about Mexicans and Muslims won't help.


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    #2601
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Given that nationalism is always uses fear (at least this far) to promote itself that is a bit rich. Remember a lot of the reason for the increase in class divide is because of the Republicans that these disenfranchised voters have voted for.

    If you want to decrease the class divide then you need cheaper education and health care. Giving out about Mexicans and Muslims won't help.

    This is all a load of nonsense down in Venezuela Madura is extremely popular but due to international pressure and his own misguided policies the economy is in ruins you don't have to be a Nationalist, Globalist or Socialist to end up like that a trouble maker. Trump like Madura is being honest with the people and that is why they like them.

    Being popular is very good for a Democracy it just so happens it is disastrous economically because nobody wants to raise taxes or do anything that will dislodge the vested interest. What is needed in all these cases are politicians that can work with the private sector to deliver far better governance. This is why Europe boasts the happiness more than any region on the planet.


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    #2602
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,886 ✭✭✭Christy42


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    This is all a load of nonsense down in Venezuela Madura is extremely popular but due to international pressure and his own misguided policies the economy is in ruins you don't have to be a Nationalist, Globalist or Socialist to end up like that a trouble maker. Trump like Madura is being honest with the people and that is why they like them.

    Being popular is very good for a Democracy it just so happens it is disastrous economically because nobody wants to raise taxes or do anything that will dislodge the vested interest. What is needed in all these cases are politicians that can work with the private sector to deliver far better governance. This is why Europe boasts the happiness more than any region on the planet.

    Trump has held nearly every position under the sun. Therefore he is lying most of the time. How anyone can call him honest is beyond me.


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    #2603
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Trump has held nearly every position under the sun. Therefore he is lying most of the time. How anyone can call him honest is beyond me.

    Trump is flexible with the facts and the media feed off of him. This is the dirties campaign in living memory. He knows the liberals will seize on everything he says and does. So in such an environment half truths and spin is the way to go. So when he said the system is rigged he is proven correct. When he says Bernie is more popular than Clinton he is correct and when he says he will bring back jobs to America he is correct. Trump & Bernie are both enemies of the GOP & Democrats. So what we are hearing is scaremongering from the est parties to convince the public that the newcomers are radicals.


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    #2604
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,886 ✭✭✭Christy42


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Trump is flexible with the facts.

    So we agree that he isn't honest?


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    #2605
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Given that nationalism is always uses fear (at least this far) to promote itself that is a bit rich.

    Fear? Nationalism has nothing to do with fear. Xenophobia perhaps but not nationalism. Were people spreading fear when the celebrated the centenary of the easter rising?

    Before nationalism or nations states we had empires. Really the history of the world is a history of empires going back thousands of years. The nation state is a new and shiny thing and its better than empires if you ask me. Nationalism is what drove Independence movements in India for example.
    Christy42 wrote: »
    Remember a lot of the reason for the increase in class divide is because of the Republicans that these disenfranchised voters have voted for.

    I don't understand this. Care to elaborate?
    Christy42 wrote: »
    If you want to decrease the class divide then you need cheaper education and health care. Giving out about Mexicans and Muslims won't help.

    Not at all. Europe has much stronger class divides than America and it prides itself on its social services. Just look at France. Most stuff is free yet social mobility is very low. Youth unemployment is over 40% and if your an immigrant good luck! The UK has the free NHS yet are you trying to tell me that the class system there even today is less then than the US?

    Class divides have nothing to do with the welfare state. It has everything to do with social mobility. There is even a brand for it. Its called the American Dream, the dream of getting to the US with nothing but the clothes on your back and making it. Now though it appears that dream is fading. Hence, going back full circle here the rise of Trump and Sanders.


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    #2606
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    Christy42 wrote: »
    So we agree that he isn't honest?

    Is Sanders honest when he says he wants to have free University for all even though the CBO says it would bankrupt the nation and even his own party admit the figures don't add up, many saying his idea is nuts?

    Is Hillary honest about, well anything really. Does anyone actually believe anything that she says unless there is some political pay off for her? Isn't there a viral you tube clip of her lying about 100 times in 15 minutes?

    I agree Trump is not honest, but lets not kid ourselves that others are a paragon of sainthood.

    edit: here is the video, only 13 minutes.


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    #2607
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,886 ✭✭✭Christy42


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Fear? Nationalism has nothing to do with fear. Xenophobia perhaps but not nationalism. Were people spreading fear when the celebrated the centenary of the easter rising?

    Before nationalism or nations states we had empires. Really the history of the world is a history of empires going back thousands of years. The nation state is a new and shiny thing and its better than empires if you ask me. Nationalism is what drove Independence movements in India for example.



    I don't understand this. Care to elaborate?



    Not at all. Europe has much stronger class divides than America and it prides itself on its social services. Just look at France. Most stuff is free yet social mobility is very low. Youth unemployment is over 40% and if your an immigrant good luck! The UK has the free NHS yet are you trying to tell me that the class system there even today is less then than the US?

    Class divides have nothing to do with the welfare state. It has everything to do with social mobility. There is even a brand for it. Its called the American Dream, the dream of getting to the US with nothing but the clothes on your back and making it. Now though it appears that dream is fading. Hence, going back full circle here the rise of Trump and Sanders.

    There is a difference between celebrating an event and electing a government on the basis of nationalism.

    If you try to get elected on nationalism you need to state that your country should be the best which leads logically to xenophobia. The Republicans have used varying scapegoats to get elected throughout the years from hippies to gay people. It has come back to haunt them.

    Yes. I find it hilarious that the states argue they have less of a class system. There are still issues. Places like Eton and Harrow end up with old boys clubs making it harder for poorer people to climb up (but this is again coming down to education). Royal family excepted in this point. Not too many politicians from poor families in the states.

    I get why Trump is popular with poorer people. That doesn't mean he will help them in the slightest.

    Also earlier it was claimed Trump was honest. It has been pointed out he isn't and suddenly the argument is dropped to point the finger at other politicians.


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    #2608
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    edit: here is the video, only 13 minutes.
    A+A is a discussion board - perhaps you might care to explain where the video you've posted illustrates the points you're trying to make.


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    #2609
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Christy42 wrote: »
    There is a difference between celebrating an event and electing a government on the basis of nationalism.

    If you try to get elected on nationalism you need to state that your country should be the best which leads logically to xenophobia. The Republicans have used varying scapegoats to get elected throughout the years from hippies to gay people. It has come back to haunt them.

    Yes. I find it hilarious that the states argue they have less of a class system. There are still issues. Places like Eton and Harrow end up with old boys clubs making it harder for poorer people to climb up (but this is again coming down to education). Royal family excepted in this point. Not too many politicians from poor families in the states.

    I get why Trump is popular with poorer people. That doesn't mean he will help them in the slightest.

    Also earlier it was claimed Trump was honest. It has been pointed out he isn't and suddenly the argument is dropped to point the finger at other politicians.

    He is also popular because people are fed up with the lies and distortions put out there by the media. The public are finding their answers on the Internet.


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    #2610
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Is Sanders honest when he says he wants to have free University for all even though the CBO says it would bankrupt the nation and even his own party admit the figures don't add up, many saying his idea is nuts?
    Well what's your own opinion, on Trumps comments hinting that he's willing to print money in order to fund the US public debt? (asking for the third time here)

    He explicitly said it's impossible for the US to go bankrupt, due to printing money like this being possible - which would seem to conflict with the CBO there.


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    #2611
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Christy42 wrote: »
    If you try to get elected on nationalism you need to state that your country should be the best which leads logically to xenophobia.
    I don't think so, you would just be implying that the country is different to others, and that difference is something worth preserving.


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