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A discussion on the rules.

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    #1442
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    This thread takes the biscuit.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057303233


    "It seems that a certain group on here gang together and continually brand anyone who disagrees with them as skangers, scumbags, lowlife's and generally class them as an 'underclass', implying they're republican terrorist supporters etc etc. The use of condescending and flaming language (I was even accused of being racist earlier today) seems to be another trait of this group in society."

    Basically it accuses anyone who supports Irish Water as being in breach of the Politics Charter by continually branding others as scumbags etc.

    Not only is it using words in breach of the charter but it is a whole thread set up to have a go at other posters. Amazingly, the post was edited by a Mod and remained unchanged!!

    It even had the following: "N.B, This is not another thread about water charges, there's enough of them at this stage I think."


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    #1443
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    It was moved from AH, normally the rules don't get applied retroactively. Also, the only sensible interpretation of those rules isn't that the words are banned but that using them as insults is (which is their normal usage, but exceptions will exist). Otherwise a verbatim quote from a newspaper article or whatever that had the word scumbag in it would merit sanction, which nobody wants I imagine.


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    #1444
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    nesf wrote: »
    It was moved from AH, normally the rules don't get applied retroactively. Also, the only sensible interpretation of those rules isn't that the words are banned but that using them as insults is (which is their normal usage, but exceptions will exist). Otherwise a verbatim quote from a newspaper article or whatever that had the word scumbag in it would merit sanction, which nobody wants I imagine.

    I was given an infraction for simply using the word before. In fact I'm sure I argued that exact point in this thread to no avail; will mine be reversed?


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    #1445
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    That was moved from AH to the cafe, the charter for the cafe isn't as strict.

    Thread on the cafe in the site wide feedback forum:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057293963

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #1446
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    nesf wrote: »
    It was moved from AH, normally the rules don't get applied retroactively. Also, the only sensible interpretation of those rules isn't that the words are banned but that using them as insults is (which is their normal usage, but exceptions will exist). Otherwise a verbatim quote from a newspaper article or whatever that had the word scumbag in it would merit sanction, which nobody wants I imagine.

    So if you call a group of people scumbags you are infracted.

    But if you state that a group of people call others scumbags you can get away with it.


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    #1447
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I was given an infraction for simply using the word before. In fact I'm sure I argued that exact point in this thread to no avail; will mine be reversed?

    I've zero say in things these days, I'm arguing what I think is the most sensible interpretation.
    Godge wrote: »
    So if you call a group of people scumbags you are infracted.

    But if you state that a group of people call others scumbags you can get away with it.

    Of course not.


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    #1448
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    nesf wrote: »
    I've zero say in things these days, I'm arguing what I think is the most sensible interpretation.



    Of course not.
    Sorry, I was on the touch site and thought for some reason you were someone else :)


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    #1449
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Is "Blueshirts" allowed as a term of abuse?


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    #1450
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Godge wrote: »
    So if you call a group of people scumbags you are infracted.

    But if you state that a group of people call others scumbags you can get away with it.

    As a verbatim quote, yes. If you tried some variant of the line "these people are the kind of people some people call scumbags", then no.
    Is "Blueshirts" allowed as a term of abuse?

    Tempting, certainly, since it's basically identical in effect to "beards", "teabaggers", "ecoloonies" etc.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #1451
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    As a verbatim quote, yes. If you tried some variant of the line "these people are the kind of people some people call scumbags", then no.



    Tempting, certainly, since it's basically identical in effect to "beards", "teabaggers", "ecoloonies" etc.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    And what about "Sinn Fein/IRA"?


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    #1452
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Nodin wrote: »
    And what about "Sinn Fein/IRA"?

    Modern Sinn Fein are associated with the modern IRA. The link is objectively there, and the crossovers between the two organisations are undeniable in general, however deniable, or denied, they may be in individual cases.

    The association of modern Fine Gael with the historical Blueshirts, on the other hand, is meaningless in a current political context, unless someone is prepared to substantiate the connections with a well-researched and argued piece of historical and policy analysis - but someone like that probably isn't going to toss "blueshirt" around as an epithet.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #1453
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,478 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I was given an infraction for simply using the word before. In fact I'm sure I argued that exact point in this thread to no avail; will mine be reversed?

    I think I got an infraction for using the S word to reference a fictional character, a drug dealer from the movie Layer Cake that Colm Meaneys character gave a nice one liner to.

    I always understood the ban was on the S word in all contexts and all usage to keep it simple for the mods, so the infraction was was at least consistent. And who knows, the fictional character might have felt personally attacked.

    If there's now context going to be applied I wonder what's the point of the specific rule on the S word, when it seems to actually be targeted on personal abuse or poor quality posting which is already covered by the rules.


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    #1454
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    The Politics Cafe threads are lighter, hence a relatively open charter, which helps for threads moved from AH. You got your card in a different forum, so you aren't comparing like with like. That thread was started in AH IIRC, we can't retrospectively card somebody for starting a thread in AH that would be against the main politics board charter!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #1455
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1456
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Modern Sinn Fein are associated with the modern IRA. The link is objectively there, and the crossovers between the two organisations are undeniable in general, however deniable, or denied, they may be in individual cases.

    The association of modern Fine Gael with the historical Blueshirts, on the other hand, is meaningless in a current political context, unless someone is prepared to substantiate the connections with a well-researched and argued piece of historical and policy analysis - but someone like that probably isn't going to toss "blueshirt" around as an epithet.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    The "modern IRA", specifically the Provisional movement, no longer exist.


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    #1457
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Modern Sinn Fein are associated with the modern IRA. The link is objectively there, and the crossovers between the two organisations are undeniable in general, however deniable, or denied, they may be in individual cases.

    The association of modern Fine Gael with the historical Blueshirts, on the other hand, is meaningless in a current political context, unless someone is prepared to substantiate the connections with a well-researched and argued piece of historical and policy analysis - but someone like that probably isn't going to toss "blueshirt" around as an epithet.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Isn't the intent the same though? Saying SF/IRA is exactly as helpful to any thread relating to current ROI (rather than historic) politics as saying Beards or Blueshirts. If its about something being factually correct, AFAIK FG have never apologized or officially disowned their Blueshirt roots?
    Would one be free from sanction if you said "the descendant of the Blueshirts"?


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    #1458
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1459
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Why do we ban any of those terms? Because they just flame and don't actually add anything to peoples point and help drag the conversation to a lower tone.

    Now you will be for the keeping of SF/IRA as a non sanctioned term for idealogical reasons, I personally don't have any big problem with Blueshirts because of my leanings.

    But surely you recognize that if your dropping to the level of Paisley style debate your not doing it with the best interests of discussion.

    Its a pointless exercise anyway, do you think you'l actually convince somebody to vote NO to SF that would have voted yes by referring to them as SF/IRA, at least pointing out people like Ferris and actual connections has the excuse of it might actually change some peoples minds, all SF/IRA says tells other posters is your own political leanings.
    (I'm more of a lurker than a poster here anyway though)


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    #1460
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    The Provisional IRA no longer exist. If somebody wishes to refer to historic associations that's perfectly fair enough. However a post stating 'The new Sinn Fein/IRA policy..........' or anything along those lines is entirely inaccurate.


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    #1461
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,478 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Especially when Sinn Fein capitalise on their association with the IRA by selling IRA merchandise in their gift shop.

    How about an IRA T-Shirt?

    Or if you're feeling especially belligerent and/or insecure, how about a "IRA - Undefeated Army" T-shirt?

    I could go on. I guess people will stop associating the IRA with SF when SF stop associating themselves with the IRA. FG long, long, long ago stopped associating themselves with the blueshirts.


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    #1462
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1463
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Sand wrote: »
    I could go on. I guess people will stop associating the IRA with SF when SF stop associating themselves with the IRA. FG long, long, long ago stopped associating themselves with the blueshirts.

    Have they ever officially renounced them though?I am fairly sure they haven't but I am open to correction.


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    #1464
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    The Provisional IRA no longer exist. If somebody wishes to refer to historic associations that's perfectly fair enough. However a post stating 'The new Sinn Fein/IRA policy..........' or anything along those lines is entirely inaccurate.

    Why?
    The deputy leader of Sinn Fein was a member of the IRA and its leader Gerry Adams has long been touted as a member by other IRA members.
    Martin Ferris anyone?
    I could go on....

    The links even today are quite strong and undeniable, yet people would rather have these links censored.


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    #1465
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Why?
    The deputy leader of Sinn Fein was a member of the IRA and its leader Gerry Adams has long been touted as a member by other IRA members.
    Martin Ferris anyone?
    I could go on....

    The links even today are quite strong and undeniable, yet people would rather have these links censored.

    What censorship? I've already said reference to historical links was perfectly fair enough. However the PIRA no longer exists.


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    #1466
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    What censorship? I've already said reference to historical links was perfectly fair enough. However the PIRA no longer exists.

    I think your original request/question was to get people who wrote 'IRA/Sinn Fein' banned. The request for being factual is a convenient rebuttal seperate from the actual matter.
    Democratic Left don't exist either, yet people should be allowed to ring them up when politician's like Eamon Gilmore and Brendan Howlin are mentioned.


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    #1467
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    I think your original request/question was to get people who wrote 'IRA/Sinn Fein' banned. .

    I think you'd be wrong.

    .
    jank wrote: »
    Democratic Left don't exist either, yet people should be allowed to ring them up when politician's like Eamon Gilmore and Brendan Howlin are mentioned.

    Yet to say Labour/Democratic Left/The Workers Party referring to current matters is misleading and inaccurate.


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    #1468
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Nodin wrote: »
    What censorship? I've already said reference to historical links was perfectly fair enough. However the PIRA no longer exists.

    The PIRA was only declared as non-existed in 2008. That is not historical, that is the other day.

    There are also many who don't believe it has gone away.

    If the PIRA is historical, then so is the bank guarantee.


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    #1469
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »

    There are also many who don't believe it has gone away.

    If you want to posit that theory, shouldn't the onus be on you to prove it?

    The term SF/IRA when referring to current events, should now be redundant, it only serves to diminish the debate here.
    I would have no problem with historical references either.


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    #1470
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    If you want to posit that theory, shouldn't the onus be on you to prove it?

    The term SF/IRA when referring to current events, should now be redundant, it only serves to diminish the debate here.
    I would have no problem with historical references either.


    The IRA existed until 2008 according to the Decommissioning Body, the independent body set up to monitor it. That body is no longer performing the task so we don't know what has happened since then.

    FF introduced the banking guarantee in 2008.

    If we agree to disassociate SF from the IRA because it is "historical", then we must also disassociate FF from the bank guarantee.

    On the other hand FF's emergence from gun politics is definitely historical. Ditto the Blueshirts. Ditto De Valera's Ireland.


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    #1471
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    The IRA existed until 2008 according to the Decommissioning Body, the independent body set up to monitor it. That body is no longer performing the task so we don't know what has happened since then.

    FF introduced the banking guarantee in 2008.

    If we agree to disassociate SF from the IRA because it is "historical", then we must also disassociate FF from the bank guarantee.

    On the other hand FF's emergence from gun politics is definitely historical. Ditto the Blueshirts. Ditto De Valera's Ireland.
    The bank guarantee exists and some of those who advocated and signed it are still in government, PIRA do not exist anymore (both governments are happy with that consensus) therefore the term SF/IRA is redundant and is actually an unproven accusation when used on here.
    Would any other 'unproven accusation' be allowed by Mods?


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