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John Waters - "There's no such thing as depression"

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    #32
    Duggy747
    Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    He's a troll who knows how to rile people up, I wouldn't normally give him or his ilk the attention he craves for.


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    #33
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Not a nice guy but better off to ignore rather than call for the pitchforks.

    I'd say he's a reasonably nice guy. Just that he has contrary views. He is, now more than ever, being held up to public ridicule for some of those views. Soem of it warrented, some of it just plain nasty. Instead of backing down and not taking such a public battering, he continues to engage.

    People who actively hate him and say pretty horrible things about him are far worse, imho, than Waters ever is/was.


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    #34
    Nora Mary S
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭Nora Mary S


    We are all a bit self absorbed - too much time on our hands. I think that a lot of depression stems from too much thought about ourselves, how do I feel today? Am I content? Am I happy in my job? - if we were more concerned about how someone else was feeling and began to reflect on someone else or help out someone else we would be distracted from this constant self reflection. Turn the mirror the other way, shine the light out rather than blinding ourselves in our own relection !


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    #35
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Nora Mary S wrote: »
    We are all a bit self absorbed - too much time on our hands. I think that a lot of depression stems from too much thought about ourselves, how do I feel today? Am I content? Am I happy in my job? - if we were more concerned about how someone else was feeling and began to reflect on someone else or help out someone else we would be distracted from this constant self reflection. Turn the mirror the other way, shine the light out rather than blinding ourselves in our own relection !

    Aye, it's the same with things like HIV, diabetes and hepatitis. People should just stop having them and think about other people instead. Getting treatment and stuff is for pansies.


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    #36
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,365 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    bluefinger wrote: »
    wasn't he married to Sinead O'Connor too?
    No he never married her, he did have a child with her. This is just a massive indication of his hypocrisy. He claim to be a devote Catholic. He isn't and hasn't been in his life.

    He deserves any criticism he get no matter where it is given he has preached from the papers, radio and TV.

    His reputation would never have been valued at €4million. He still has the right to free speech but nobody will pay for it anymore.

    Don't forget he believes he is somewhat special by being a journalist and normal people should not be allowed write blogs in his view.


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    #37
    The One Doctor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,339 ✭✭✭The One Doctor


    It's the Independant. Nothing they publish can be thought of as fact, logic or sense. An Irish Daily Sun for the middle classes.


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    #38
    LoveLamps
    Registered Users Posts: 781 ✭✭✭LoveLamps


    Thought this was about Jon Walters :/


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    #39
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    HalloweenJack wrote: »
    In fairness, he spouts a few lines of ignorant nonsense but isn't pushed for an explanation....
    Fair point. The journalist was somewhat at fault for failing to challenge him for an explanation of what he meant.

    The entire interview was self-serving, and it was presented in an entirely uncritical way.


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    #40
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    He's an odious, self-righteous idiot that's so full of himself, if we were able to harness the power of his hot air, we'd solve our energy problems for years to come.


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    #41
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,379 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    bluefinger wrote: »
    wasn't he married to Sinead O'Connor too?
    She was supposed to have rang up some radio station defending him about this issue.

    I think she was saying that he recognises & believes in clinical depression, and that the comment was about himself, in response to the question
    Asked if he had become depressed as a result of the national backlash

    This sounds more likely to me. If people are really bothered they should ask him clearly the question which they are making out he answered, or a question they are making out he would also agree to.

    e.g. people should ask "do you ever think a single person every ever existed who suffered from clinical depression?" because some are making out like he would answer no, while I would bet he would say yes.


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    #42
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    Aye, it's the same with things like HIV, diabetes and hepatitis. People should just stop having them and think about other people instead. Getting treatment and stuff is for pansies.

    Oh come on - there's no parallel between the two.

    HIV, diabetes and hepatitis can be objectively diagnosed.

    Depressed is diagnosed through subjective interpretation.

    This means that an awful lot of people who go to the GP and often 'claim' to be depressed will be believed by said GP and given antidepressants.

    We need to divorce the stressed/sad individual from the "clinically depressed" individual - a massive chasm separates the two and the subjectivity of this question is what makes it so frustrating.


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    #43
    geeky
    Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭geeky


    I've long believed that John Waters without a thesaurus to hand is just a knuckle-dragging pub bore, plain and simple. The Sindo interview confirms it for me.

    Interesting to see Sinead O'Connor coming out to suggest 'what he meant to say', particularly given their antagonism and her experience with mental health issues. But really, he's a garden variety reactionary hack who we've been paying attention to for far too long.


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    #44
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    rubadub wrote: »
    She was supposed to have rang up some radio station defending him about this issue.

    I think she was saying that he recognises & believes in clinical depression, and that the comment was about himself, in response to the question



    This sounds more likely to me. If people are really bothered they should ask him clearly the question which they are making out he answered, or a question they are making out he would also agree to.

    e.g. people should ask "do you ever think a single person every ever existed who suffered from clinical depression?" because some are making out like he would answer no, while I would bet he would say yes.
    yeah this sounds a bit more believable...John should be experienced enough in taking people out of context to understand what he said was stupid.


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    #45
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    Oh come on - there's no parallel between the two.

    HIV, diabetes and hepatitis can be objectively diagnosed.

    Depressed is diagnosed through subjective interpretation.

    This means that an awful lot of people who go to the GP and often 'claim' to be depressed will be believed by said GP and given antidepressants.

    We need to divorce the stressed/sad individual from the "clinically depressed" individual - a massive chasm separates the two and the subjectivity of this question is what makes it so frustrating.

    There is a gargantuan difference between saying that some people might be misdiagnosed as being depressed and saying that depression is the sufferer's own fault and they should just stop being so selfish.

    The former goes without saying and I'm unsure of its relevance.


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    #46
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    There is a gargantuan difference between saying that some people might be misdiagnosed as being depressed and saying that depression is the sufferer's own fault and they should just stop being so selfish.

    That's not my position by the way.


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    #47
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    wretcheddomain wrote: »

    There also seems to be a muddling of terms. People can feel down, stressed, sad, miserable - but for some bizarre reason this is assumed to be an unnatural or "disordered" thing. The fact is that sadness is also a human emotion but common culture has allowed any degree of sadness or stress to be considered "depression" in the clinical sense.

    You see the same myth with OCD - many people go around claiming to have it when in reality, in the strict clinical sense, they don't. And that's the point - there's a world of difference between feeling stressed and being "clinically depressed". Due to the subjective nature of depression, these terms and experiences get muddled up and it results in the overprescribing of antidepressants.

    I think you are the prime term-muddler here, and by throwing John Waters into the fray you have temporarily disguised your own trollishness.

    Doctors do NOT consider "any degree of sadness or stress" to be clinical depression. They'd be struck off if they did. Doctors assess how someone is coping with any degree of sadness or stress. Just because the patients' symptoms are self-reported and subjective does not mean the doctor cannot look at them objectively. And treat them accordingly.

    Yes, some people go around saying they have OCD, when they don't. And people use the word depression but not in the clinical sense. Leave them off - it's just people using language. It absolutely does not follow that doctors use these terms interchangeably. That's obtuse and you know it.


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    #48
    rogie123
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭rogie123


    I think there is


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    #49
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,265 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    Haven't seen this up yet so thought I'd see what you folks thought about it:



    www.independent.ie/irish-news/ive-been-put-on-trial-over-my-beliefs-30180643.html

    I think he's right to some extent. I know the common convention in this country is to accept depression in everyone who admits to having it or by a psychiatrist claiming someone has it, but this isn't good enough in my view. Claiming to feel a certain way is subjective - there is no objective diagnosis for depression.

    There also seems to be a muddling of terms. People can feel down, stressed, sad, miserable - but for some bizarre reason this is assumed to be an unnatural or "disordered" thing. The fact is that sadness is also a human emotion but common culture has allowed any degree of sadness or stress to be considered "depression" in the clinical sense.

    You see the same myth with OCD - many people go around claiming to have it when in reality, in the strict clinical sense, they don't. And that's the point - there's a world of difference between feeling stressed and being "clinically depressed". Due to the subjective nature of depression, these terms and experiences get muddled up and it results in the overprescribing of antidepressants.

    So in conclusion, I wouldn't go as far as Waters in claiming depression doesn't exist - it does, but only in a minority of people who have the real clinical version and not some stressful experience in life.

    I think the term has been abused over the last few years. Theres a difference between being diagnosed as clinically depressed and going to the gp for a five minute moan and getting pills.

    Its people that use it as an excuse for their own faults or bad behaviour that are the problem and make people very suspicious of those that claim to suffer fom it.


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    #50
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    He's such a worthless, odious little shit-bag.

    Every now and then he speaks off the cuff and reveals himself to be a mean-spirited, hateful bigot, eager to pour scorn on those he considers degenerates (gay people), but when he is given the opportunity to defend his position or elaborate on his awful comments, he changes the subject and starts trying to present himself as a victim - spouting irrelevant, ambiguous nonsense.

    Horrible.


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    #51
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Links234 wrote: »
    He's an odious, self-righteous idiot that's so full of himself, if we were able to harness the power of his hot air, we'd solve our energy problems for years to come.

    Indeed so. He is in need of constant attention, hence is opinions on many things.


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    #52
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    Its people that use it as an excuse for their own faults or bad behaviour that are the problem and make people very suspicious of those that claim to suffer from it.

    No. No, the problem is mental illness. Fcuk what unqualified people think.


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    #53
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,379 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    Aye, it's the same with things like HIV, diabetes and hepatitis. People should just stop having them and think about other people instead. Getting treatment and stuff is for pansies.
    I think it is more like an interviewer saying "that's a bad cough, have you the flu"

    -"no I don't believe in all this flu bull**** you hear everyone claiming they have, its just a bad cold" And neglecting to say he does believe that people are indeed hospitalised and die from having the genuine influenza virus.

    Maybe he does believe there is no such thing, but I would have to see him answer a direct question about it, certainly not this single comment in reply to a personal question.


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    #54
    D1stant
    Registered Users Posts: 1,806 ✭✭✭D1stant


    Can John Waters just please Fvck off. Self important little troll


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    #55
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    Muise... wrote: »
    I think you are the prime term-muddler here, and by throwing John Waters into the fray you have temporarily disguised your own trollishness.

    Doctors do NOT consider "any degree of sadness or stress" to be clinical depression. They'd be struck off if they did. Doctors assess how someone is coping with any degree of sadness or stress. Just because the patients' symptoms are self-reported and subjective does not mean the doctor cannot look at them objectively. And treat them accordingly.

    Yes, some people go around saying they have OCD, when they don't. And people use the word depression but not in the clinical sense. Leave them off - it's just people using language. It absolutely does not follow that doctors use these terms interchangeably. That's obtuse and you know it.

    This is the worst post I've read on AH in months and demonstrates some profound ignorance on the subject matter. You sound like a disgruntled medical student who has read this in their notes.

    First and foremost, labelling someone a troll on AH is a criminal offence. My original post perfectly reflects what's happening in reality.

    You claim that doctors would be struck off for not diagnosing depression in what you call an "objective" way. If doctors could diagnose mental illnesses from an "objective" way then why are there so many discrepancies in diagnosis depending on which doctor you go to? For example, if I had anaemia, the blood test would "objectively" show this and the doctor would act accordingly.

    This is not true of mental illnesses and you know it. There is no "blood test" type of objective diagnosis. Each doctor has to assess subjectively each patient and decide what the best course of action is. It's because of bad diagnosis that antidepressants are now so massively overprescribed in the Western world - let me guess, you believe all these cases are properly and "objectively" diagnosed?

    It's ridiculous to suggest that ordinary people differentiate between "depression" and "clinical depression" - the reality is that they don't. The interchangeability of these terms is a contributing factor to the spread of ignorance about the real condition.

    Get your facts straight.


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    #56
    banquo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,487 ✭✭✭banquo


    Tbh, 95% of the ****e thrown at JW is completely baseless. I don't agree with the man on many, many things. But a civilised society should at least make an attempt to discover facts and context before calling someone names.


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    #57
    Tordelback
    Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Tordelback


    I loathe Waters and his drivel, but the question he was asked was a nonsense, and it got an appropriately nonsensical response.

    The sense of 'get[ting] depressed' over the 'backlash' has nothing to do with depression - that would be getting frustrated and disheartened, normal understandable reactions to an adverse situation.

    Depression is where you wake up on bright sunny morning surrounding by your beautiful healthy family and feel as if you are alone and powerless in the depths of hell, and all by your own hand.


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    #58
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    This is the worst post I've read on AH in months and demonstrates some profound ignorance on the subject matter. You sound like a disgruntled medical student who has read this in their notes.


    Get your facts straight.

    Kid, I consider that a victory. :pac:

    Right back at ya.


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    #59
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    Muise... wrote: »
    Kid, I consider that a victory. :pac:

    Right back at ya.

    You think my perspectives are written in medical notes? Ha! Now that's funny. :D

    Refusing to engage with the points of a post is a tacit acceptance of them.

    Right back at ya.


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    #60
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    You think my perspectives are written in medical notes? Ha! Now that's funny. :D

    Refusing to engage with the points of a post is a tacit acceptance of them.

    Right back at ya.

    No, I think your perspectives are written on a beer mat because some oul crank gurned them to the lads in the pub one night and you thought, "wow, man, you're right! The doctors, they don't know anything!"

    You didn't engage with my point that challenged your views; you shouted yours a bit louder. My point, again: just because people in general don't differentiate between "depression" as in sadness, and "clinical depression" doesn't mean that doctors have no metrics for assessing the difference between the two.


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    #61
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    banquo wrote: »
    Tbh, 95% of the ****e thrown at JW is completely baseless. I don't agree with the man on many, many things. But a civilised society should at least make an attempt to discover facts and context before calling someone names.

    The vitriol thrown at Waters is akin to the hate surrounding Margaret Thatcher, especially after her death.

    People who expect to be taken seriously, yet they are so full of blind hate for Waters that they have steam coming out their ears.

    Human society (like wolves), it seems, needs a hate figure. One to push out, drive away and beat down at every opportunity. it reinforces the bond between the rest of the pack. Waters is one such figure. It makes us all feel great to hate him so much. It assures us of our place in the pack.


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