garda whistleblowers. heros or just disgruntled employees??

21-02-2014 8:59pm #1

lets face it, they seem a bit mad, no?????

i wasnt allowed out of station because i had a beard, that isnt allowed, so i thought id get my own back on the local chief superintendent.
i got in trouble in dublin because i shot a gun, from inside a car, straight across the drivers face through a window!!

the other one, i tape record everyone i speak to!!!!
paranoid much??????

and, if im not mistaken, both these guys have accessed peoples private information on the pulse system. against Data Protection no?

from interviews i've heard, they're a right pair of weirdos!!

why would the country believe they are great fellows??

Hootanany · 21-02-2014 9:02pm

Do one Alan.

GenieOz · 21-02-2014 9:03pm

bubblypop wrote: »

why would the country believe they are great fellows??

For blowing the whistle on the crap that was going on, it's not like everyone thinks they're great for the other stuff.

21-02-2014 9:03pm

who's alan????

Sir Arthur Daley · 21-02-2014 9:04pm

bubblypop wrote: »

who's alan????

He is married to Alice.

wazky · 21-02-2014 9:04pm

bubblypop wrote: »

who's alan????

Partridge

Hootanany · 21-02-2014 9:05pm

bubblypop wrote: »

who's alan????

He writes crappy books.

Gatling · 21-02-2014 9:06pm

There's some interesting stuff in the leaked dossier all over the news in the past few days ,

Including criminal got bail only to reoffend how did this criminal get bail ,

Courth ,solicitor ,DPP and a judge ,trial date ,

What's the whistleblower trying to say here exactly

21-02-2014 9:07pm

GenieOz wrote: »

For blowing the whistle on the crap that was going on, it's not like everyone thinks they're great for the other stuff.

but what crap??
that superintendents can cancel tickets?

sure thats always been the case, i believe its the law.

you get a ticket that you believe to be wrong, all you do is write to the superintendent, explain why etc 'i had to bring my really old mother to the doctors, she cant walk well because she had a hip replacement 2 months ago, so i parked outside on double yellows for 5 mins just to bring her in. then i came out and moved my car'

any reasonable superintendent would cancel this right??

wazky · 21-02-2014 9:09pm

WikiHow wrote: »

He is married to Alice.

Alice?!, Who the fcuk is Alice?!

bajer101 · 21-02-2014 9:13pm

bubblypop wrote: »

lets face it, they seem a bit mad, no?????

i wasnt allowed out of station because i had a beard, that isnt allowed, so i thought id get my own back on the local chief superintendent.
i got in trouble in dublin because i shot a gun, from inside a car, straight across the drivers face through a window!!

the other one, i tape record everyone i speak to!!!!
paranoid much??????

and, if im not mistaken, both these guys have accessed peoples private information on the pulse system. against Data Protection no?

from interviews i've heard, they're a right pair of weirdos!!

why would the country believe they are great fellows??

You have made quite a few posts in the Emergency Services forum that would lead one to believe that you are a member of AGS. And here you pop up in After Hours starting a thread trying to discredit two whistle blowers who reported wrongdoing by members of your organisation! Agenda much?

Sir Arthur Daley · 21-02-2014 9:15pm

bajer101 wrote: »

You have made quite a few posts in the Emergency Services forum that would lead one to believe that you are a member of AGS. And here you pop up in After Hours starting a thread trying to discredit two whistle blowers who reported wrongdoing by members of your organisation! Agenda much?

This is pure inspector morse stuff.

21-02-2014 9:16pm

bajer101 wrote: »

You have made quite a few posts in the Emergency Services forum that would lead one to believe that you are a member of AGS. And here you pop up in After Hours starting a thread trying to discredit two whistle blowers who reported wrongdoing by members of your organisation! Agenda much?

well im certainly not the commisioner or minister for justice, so why would i discredit someone if they were genuiely showing up some terrible injustice????

do you not think that members of AGS would welcome bad practise being shown for what it is?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 21-02-2014 9:21pm

It all depends on what they have to say or disclose. That will dictate whether it's crap or not.

thestar · 21-02-2014 9:21pm

I'm currently in the recruitment process for AGS and it crossed my mind as to what I would say on the issue if I was asked in an interview, the fact that Callinan described their actions shows to me that I would have to slate the whistleblowers. Morally what these two guys did was correct however

bajer101 · 21-02-2014 9:22pm

bubblypop wrote: »

well im certainly not the commisioner or minister for justice, so why would i discredit someone if they were genuiely showing up some terrible injustice????

do you not think that members of AGS would welcome bad practise being shown for what it is?

One would hope. Yet, here you are trying to discredit them? This isn't just about penalty points, there were a lot of other serious cases of malpractice highlighted. But I get the impression that if you uncovered malpractice that resulted in the murder of an innocent woman you wouldn't have reported it. As was concluded by the Judge in the Smithwick tribunal, there is a culture in AGS of valuing loyalty over truth. At least McCabe an Wilson had the balls to break that culture. Try and discredit them as much as you want, the cat is well and truly out of the bag at this stage.

When the personal attacks start, you know you have them worried.

21-02-2014 9:41pm

bajer101 wrote: »

One would hope. Yet, here you are trying to discredit them? This isn't just about penalty points, there were a lot of other serious cases of malpractice highlighted. But I get the impression that if you uncovered malpractice that resulted in the murder of an innocent woman you wouldn't have reported it. As was concluded by the Judge in the Smithwick tribunal, there is a culture in AGS of valuing loyalty over truth. At least McCabe an Wilson had the balls to break that culture. Try and discredit them as much as you want, the cat is well and truly out of the bag at this stage.

When the personal attacks start, you know you have them worried.

absolutely not, if anybody actually uncovered serious malpractise im sure they would do something about it.

i dont think that joe public should be just backing people that they know nothing about, believing them 100%. why these two?
why not any other member of the garda?

and again, i repeat, what did they actually whistleblow about?
superintendents cancelling tickets? sure that was part of their job!

bajer101 · 21-02-2014 9:49pm

bubblypop wrote: »

absolutely not, if anybody actually uncovered serious malpractise im sure they would do something about it.

i dont think that joe public should be just backing people that they know nothing about, believing them 100%. why these two?
why not any other member of the garda?

and again, i repeat, what did they actually whistleblow about?
superintendents cancelling tickets? sure that was part of their job!

They reported the malpractice that resulted in the murder of Sylvia Roche-Kelly by Jerry McGrath. They reported a case where a young woman was seriously assaulted by three men, but no charges were brought and the woman was handed €150 and sent packing. They reported malpractice in other cases of assault, abduction and false imprisonment. And also the penalty points fiasco with yet to be confirmed reports that some people who had their points incorrectly cancelled were later involved in fatal RTAs.

I have heard them being interviewed and have found them to be believable. I have heard of the treatment that they received at the hands of other members of AGS and found that "disgusting". I am also guided by the opinion of them reported by Conor Brady, the former chariman of GSOC and by Oliver Connolly the confidential recipient who have stated that they found both men to be very hounourable.

Specialun · 21-02-2014 10:01pm

What a load of bollox..these men should be applauded for blowing it all wide open.I cannot see one reason against it.Sylvia roche kelly could still be alive only for the gombeen behaviour of senior guards.

Time must be right bad when a guard has to come on AH to drum up support

21-02-2014 10:02pm

bajer101 wrote: »

They reported the malpractice that resulted in the murder of Sylvia Roche-Kelly by Jerry McGrath. They reported a case where a young woman was seriously assaulted by three men, but no charges were brought and the woman was handed €150 and sent packing. They reported malpractice in other cases of assault, abduction and false imprisonment. And also the penalty points fiasco with yet to be confirmed reports that some people who had their points incorrectly cancelled were later involved in fatal RTAs.

I have heard them being interviewed and have found them to be believable. I have heard of the treatment that they received at the hands of other members of AGS and found that "disgusting". I am also guided by the opinion of them reported by Conor Brady, the former chariman of GSOC and by Oliver Connolly the confidential recipient who have stated that they found both men to be very hounourable.

that murder was absolutely terrible, but i really dont think you can say it was garda malpractise that caused it, yes he was out on bail but how many cases are in court every single day of people that have committed crimes whilst on bail??
i dont think you can say, yes this is one individual Guards fault, HE allowed this man out to murder someone. definately not.

points incorrectly cancelled? who decides that they are incorrectly cancelled? if someone had points cancelled by a Superintendent, surely he was the man to decide if they were worthy of cancellation?
do you think you know better than the Superintendent

i must admit im not aware of the assault case you are talking about, but if it can be shown that Gardai maliciously allowed someone to go free, then obviously something should be done about that.

just as an aside, if you heard that gardai were looking up neighbours/relations/aquatenances on the pulse system, how would you feel about that?? would that be ok? even though thats clearly against the Data Protection Act.............

Specialun · 21-02-2014 10:05pm

bubblypop wrote: »

that murder was absolutely terrible, but i really dont think you can say it was garda malpractise that caused it, yes he was out on bail but how many cases are in court every single day of people that have committed crimes whilst on bail??
i dont think you can say, yes this is one individual Guards fault, HE allowed this man out to murder someone. definately not.

points incorrectly cancelled? who decides that they are incorrectly cancelled? if someone had points cancelled by a Superintendent, surely he was the man to decide if they were worthy of cancellation?
do you think you know better than the Superintendent

i must admit im not aware of the assault case you are talking about, but if it can be shown that Gardai maliciously allowed someone to go free, then obviously something should be done about that.

just as an aside, if you heard that gardai were looking up neighbours/relations/aquatenances on the pulse system, how would you feel about that?? would that be ok? even though thats clearly against the Data Protection Act.............

Without tne malpractice would the lady still be alive? Yes or no

Kristopherus · 21-02-2014 10:17pm

bubblypop wrote: »

that murder was absolutely terrible, but i really dont think you can say it was garda malpractise that caused it, yes he was out on bail but how many cases are in court every single day of people that have committed crimes whilst on bail??
i dont think you can say, yes this is one individual Guards fault, HE allowed this man out to murder someone. definately not.

points incorrectly cancelled? who decides that they are incorrectly cancelled? if someone had points cancelled by a Superintendent, surely he was the man to decide if they were worthy of cancellation?
do you think you know better than the Superintendent

i must admit im not aware of the assault case you are talking about, but if it can be shown that Gardai maliciously allowed someone to go free, then obviously something should be done about that.

just as an aside, if you heard that gardai were looking up neighbours/relations/aquatenances on the pulse system, how would you feel about that?? would that be ok? even though thats clearly against the Data Protection Act.............

But in the McGrath case the big mistake was that the Gardai failed to tell the Judge in the bail hearing for the Tipp abduction attempt, the that bastard was on bail for the Cavan assault. That single omission allowed McGrath to kill Sylvia Roche-Kelly. IMO all the other omissions pale into insignificance when compared to that one:(.

bajer101 · 21-02-2014 10:26pm

bubblypop wrote: »

that murder was absolutely terrible, but i really dont think you can say it was garda malpractise that caused it, yes he was out on bail but how many cases are in court every single day of people that have committed crimes whilst on bail??
i dont think you can say, yes this is one individual Guards fault, HE allowed this man out to murder someone. definately not.

He was out on bail, but that is not where the alleged malpractice occurred. The original assault case against Mary Lynch was incorrectly handled and the real issue is that when he appeared in court on the attempted child abduction case, because of the way his case had been mishandled, it was not reported to the court that he was already on bail! If it had been, he would have been denied bail and would have been remanded in custody. Instead, he was released on bail and was free to commit murder. GSOC undertook an investigation into this case and made recommendations of actions to be taken. Guess what happened? Nothing!

points incorrectly cancelled? who decides that they are incorrectly cancelled? if someone had points cancelled by a Superintendent, surely he was the man to decide if they were worthy of cancellation?
do you think you know better than the Superintendent

The whole penalty points issue has been a whitewash and needs to be properly investigated. The internal investigation was a sham with the two lads themselves not even being interviewed. No one is saying that AGS shouldn't have the ability to show discretion - and god forbid that the fallout from this results in that happening - but even the internal whitewash showed that there were points incorrectly wiped. There is no escaping that it will be investigated fully now, and the truth will hopefully emerge.

i must admit im not aware of the assault case you are talking about, but if it can be shown that Gardai maliciously allowed someone to go free, then obviously something should be done about that.

That's just one of the many cases that are in the dossier that the whistleblowers submitted. Michael Martin was on drivetime this evening and he said that all the cases originate in the same area.

just as an aside, if you heard that gardai were looking up neighbours/relations/aquatenances on the pulse system, how would you feel about that?? would that be ok? even though thats clearly against the Data Protection Act.............

That's an aside as that is not really what happened in this case. They weren't just looking into cases to discover a bit of gossip - they were looking for evidence of malpractice. By definition, whistleblowers have to break the rules of their employers to make the wrongdoing public. They will usually be vilified for this. But history usually judges them as having taken the correct course of action.

J K · 21-02-2014 10:41pm

bajer101 wrote: »

it was not reported to the court that he was already on bail! If it had been, he would have been denied bail and would have been remanded in custody. .

this remark shows that you know nothing about the irish criminal justice system.

21-02-2014 10:45pm

Kristopherus wrote: »

But in the McGrath case the big mistake was that the Gardai failed to tell the Judge in the bail hearing for the Tipp abduction attempt, the that bastard was on bail for the Cavan assault. That single omission allowed McGrath to kill Sylvia Roche-Kelly. IMO all the other omissions pale into insignificance when compared to that one:(.

We don't know that the judge wouldn't have given him bail in this case even if he did know he was already on bail.
There are a huge amount of offenders that commit crimes while on bail.
Its not fair but that is the judges decision.

In this particular case, yes, the judge should've been aware of all the details but it still does not mean he wouldn't have got bail.

bajer101 · 21-02-2014 10:56pm

J K wrote: »

this remark shows that you know nothing about the irish criminal justice system.

Another member of AGS to give his unbiased opinion? Coming in to defend his colleague. As Judge Smithwick reported, "loyalty over truth".

The original attack was extremely serious and was mishandled. The attempted abduction of the child was also very sinister. I may not have as much inside knowledge of the bail laws, but at the very least one would have to think that there was a very good possibility that he would have been remanded in custody.

You are doing yourselves no favours lads. The vast majority of people have absolutely no problem with the rank and file members of AGS - myself included. Most people would count family members and/or friends as members. But this issue has really got the public's back up, and blindly attacking the whistle blowers is just giving the public the impression that even the rank and file members have something to hide.

For the record, I actually believe that the support within AGS for the two lads is increasing. I believe that most ordinary members wouldn't be too enamoured with the upper echelons of AGS. I think it would make for a much healthier debate if members of AGS discussed these issues honestly, instead of just blindly attacking the whistle blowers and defending each other.

J K · 21-02-2014 11:03pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Another member of AGS to give his unbiased opinion? Coming in to defend his colleague. As Judge Smithwick reported, "loyalty over truth".

I'll leave you to your circle jerk then if you feel inclined to censor balanced debate. It was Judge Morris not Smithwick who made that comment - to cover for the fact that at huge expense to the tax payer his show trial failed to bring justice on a number of individual gardai guilty of wrong doing and threw up a smoke screen castigating 14000 members of which he knew nothing about and had heard no evidence about during his tribunal.

bajer101 · 21-02-2014 11:05pm

bubblypop wrote: »

We don't know that the judge wouldn't have given him bail in this case even if he did know he was already on bail.
There are a huge amount of offenders that commit crimes while on bail.
Its not fair but that is the judges decision.

In this particular case, yes, the judge should've been aware of all the details but it still does not mean he wouldn't have got bail.

But there is a much greater chance that he would have been remanded in custody, if the Judge had been aware that he was already out on bail. The malpractice that was exposed ensured that he wasn't remanded in custody, and as a result he was definitely free to commit murder.

I don't understand why you are trying to defend this or to obscure the issue. Have you any idea how it looks to the public? You should be saying - "Jaysus, that was terrible. There are some clowns out there who have really messed up and are giving the rest of us decent Guards a bad name."

As Dr. Tom Clonan said, his father and grandfather were members of AGS, but at the moment when he sees the badge, there is a question mark over it!

Nermal · 21-02-2014 11:12pm

bubblypop wrote: »

you get a ticket that you believe to be wrong, all you do is write to the superintendent, explain why etc 'i had to bring my really old mother to the doctors, she cant walk well because she had a hip replacement 2 months ago, so i parked outside on double yellows for 5 mins just to bring her in. then i came out and moved my car'

any reasonable superintendent would cancel this right??

A superintendent in a normal police service would tell you to get lost at that point. That's the problem with AGS.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 21-02-2014 11:12pm

bubblypop wrote: »

lets face it, they seem a bit mad, no?????

i wasnt allowed out of station because i had a beard, that isnt allowed, so i thought id get my own back on the local chief superintendent.
i got in trouble in dublin because i shot a gun, from inside a car, straight across the drivers face through a window!!

the other one, i tape record everyone i speak to!!!!
paranoid much??????

and, if im not mistaken, both these guys have accessed peoples private information on the pulse system. against Data Protection no?

from interviews i've heard, they're a right pair of weirdos!!

why would the country believe they are great fellows??

This has been a Party Political Broadcast by Alan Shatter TD the minister for Garda incompetence cover ups.

bajer101 · 21-02-2014 11:21pm

J K wrote: »

I'll leave you to your circle jerk then if you feel inclined to censor balanced debate. It was Judge Morris not Smithwick who made that comment - to cover for the fact that at huge expense to the tax payer his show trial failed to bring justice on a number of individual gardai guilty of wrong doing and threw up a smoke screen castigating 14000 members of which he knew nothing about and had heard no evidence about during his tribunal.

"Circle Jerk"! Are you aware of the irony? I am in now way trying to censor balanced debate and I don't understand how you can make that statement. I am putting forward reasoned, rational arguments, whereas all you have done is throwing out a meaningless one liner; cast aspersions; and exhibited total arrogance in stating facts that are completely wrong. It was Judge Smithwick, not Morris who mentioned the loyalty issue:

"“Loyalty is prized above honesty."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/smithwick-tribunal-report-culture-must-change-if-confidence-in-garda-is-to-be-maintained-says-judge-1.1616165

The Morris case was also another window into the corruption that exists at in some sections of the AGS. You're not doing much to reassure me that you're not all like that, or that you are interested in being an accountable, transparent organisation.

garda whistleblowers. heros or just disgruntled employees??

Comments