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Iona vs Panti

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    #1412
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    robindch wrote: »
    RTE's legal advisors considered it cheaper to pay 85k than contest it in court.
    I am afraid you are mistaken. From the memo.
    As a dual-funded public body, RTÉ should not knowingly progress to defend an action when it is advised, internally and externally, that such a defence is unlikely to succeed before a jury.
    From the memo:
    RTE Memo wrote:
    [...] we decided that a settlement was the most prudent course of action [...]
    Hope this helps.


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    #1413
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    mango salsa wrote: »
    http://www.ionainstitute.ie/assets/files/Section%2037%20submission.pdf

    That's posh homophobia! :D


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    #1414
    AngryHippie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    That's posh homophobia! :D

    Its not even posh, it's just very carefully and cynically constructed. Exactly the sinister creeping forms of discrimination that oppress people.

    I really hope this gathers momentum and allows a referendum to clear the slate of the kind of bigotry that has been a constant thorn in the side of our society.

    Hiding it behind their "ethos" doesn't change the nature or intent of their goals or actions.


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    #1415
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Anger all the way from America :D
    I hadn't heard about any of this—I don't think anyone in the states had—until Panti was invited to address the controversy at the Irish National Theater last weekend. If you're not among the 250,000 people who've watched the video already, you need to watch it. If you've already watched it, watch it again. It's amazing. Rory is amazing. Panti is amazing...

    ...And if you ****ty mother****ers are dumb enough to sue Panti, know this: she not only has thousands of supporters in Ireland, she has thousands of new supporters all over the world. Myself included. And we will spread the word and we will raise money and we will call you ****ty ****ing homophobes without a moment's hesitation. Because you're a bunch of ****ty ****ing homophobes.

    http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2014/02/05/stupid-irish-homophobes-and-their-big-homophobic-fail

    Queers dollars to fund Panti should she need it to combat the Catholic dollars behind Iona.

    I am a bit conflicted by this ironic twist.

    On the one hand I think 'Yes!' and on the other I think - America , would you just Feck off out of our lives!


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    #1416
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    robindch wrote: »
    No. RTE's legal advisors considered it cheaper to pay 85k than contest it in court.

    In that, I think RTE are correct and the law is an ass.

    I think the assery belongs to Iona on this one, and I really wonder what they were thinking. Instead of ignoring the comments, or getting all worked up as they did and accepting,for example, the offer of a charitable donation on their behalf, they insist on taking the money? Taxpayers money, at that, and in a time of national austerity, too. Classy. How did they see this as playing out, I wonder, that RTE would cough up and that would be the end of it?


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    #1417
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    There's one thing the internet and global communications proves : a lot of people all over Ireland and all over the world are actually extremely reasonable and very willing to stand up for others' rights and, eh.. aren't at all homophobic.

    Panti currently has 14,814 likes on Facebook and 16,200 followers on Twitter.

    Panti's oration has been viewed 275,032 times.

    Just watch, it'll grow almost exponentially over the coming hours and days.

    Remember TDs: that could actually translate as a LOT of votes too! Back the wrong horse, and you could be rather unpopular...


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    #1418
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Assuming those views aren't bots and repeat viewers, of course.


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    #1419
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Jernal wrote: »
    Assuming those views aren't bots and repeat viewers, of course.

    I'd say Google's fairly savvy to bots to be quite honest.

    The Facebook likes and Twitter follows seem to have shot up though and they're not duplicatable and can't be faked.


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    #1420
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    Bannasidhe wrote: »

    On the one hand I think 'Yes!' and on the other I think - America , would you just Feck off out of our lives!

    What an idiotic thing to say.

    Equal rights is a global issue and deserves global attention.


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    #1421
    AngryHippie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    [-0-] wrote: »
    What an idiotic thing to say.

    Equal rights is a global issue and deserves global attention.

    As long as they don't bring us "democracy" and the drones and cruise missiles that come with it:eek:


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    #1422
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    [-0-] wrote: »
    What an idiotic thing to say.

    Equal rights is a global issue and deserves global attention.

    It's not idiotic at all. Haven't we only recently been on the receiving end here of the class of interfering from abroad that bought pro-lifers their glossy ad campaign, posters and pop-up crowds taking advantage of the laid on buses? The minority side can NEVER compete when the fundie side is bankrolled by american fundies.

    I would take Bann's point about the morality of accepting similar hand outs. It would feel bad.....but actually your point above stands too. You're both right! Wayhaaay!


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    #1423
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,103 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    . . . I am a bit conflicted by this ironic twist.

    On the one hand I think 'Yes!' and on the other I think - America , would you just Feck off out of our lives!
    I see what you mean.

    But turn the question around. A while ago I sent a few shillings (a very few shillings - I'm not looking for any credit here) to the "It Gets Better" Project, which is of course US-based. Do you think I shouldn't have done that?

    I appreciate that well-meaning interventions from people in one country who have an incomplete understanding of the situation in another country can have very bad outcomes. But, still, human rights are by definition a shared concern of all humanity.


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    #1424
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,851 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Anger all the way from America :D



    http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2014/02/05/stupid-irish-homophobes-and-their-big-homophobic-fail

    Queers dollars to fund Panti should she need it to combat the Catholic dollars behind Iona.

    I am a bit conflicted by this ironic twist.

    On the one hand I think 'Yes!' and on the other I think - America , would you just Feck off out of our lives!

    I reckon Iona are funded by them?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1425
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    mango salsa wrote: »
    I reckon Iona are funded by them?

    We've had this speculation before alright, but as far as I remember, got nowhere with finding out and their funding is just as shady as ever. Thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056575195&page=2


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    #1426
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I think we need everyone on board!

    The LGBT community will undoubtedly support Panti on this one.

    I think for those of us who believe in freedom of speech, freedom of conscience and seperation of church and state, we need to support her too.

    This is a huge issue.
    What's just happened is actually frightening. Because of the structure of the legal system, a debate that is essential to an upcoming referendum has just been chilled.

    How long before someone does something similar and tries to quash debate on freedom from religion or uses the blasphemy laws to stifel debate ?!

    We don't have freedom of speech! That's been demonstrated very clearly.

    I welcome international involvement.
    Ireland's establishment and ridiculous laws need to be seen for what they are.


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    #1427
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I think we need everyone on board!

    The LGBT community will undoubtedly support Panti on this one.

    I think for those of us who believe in freedom of speech, freedom of conscience and seperation of church and state, we need to support her too.

    This is a huge issue.
    What's just happened is actually frightening. Because of the structure of the legal system, a debate that is essential to an upcoming referendum has just been chilled.

    How long before someone does something similar and tries to quash debate on freedom from religion or uses the blasphemy laws to stifel debate ?!

    We don't have freedom of speech! That's been demonstrated very clearly.

    I welcome international involvement.
    Ireland's establishment and ridiculous laws need to be seen for what they are.
    You don't have freedom to defame. If RTE believed the accusation could stand up as truthful in court then there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't have tried to defend it.


    Do you honestly think that you should be able to make such ugly and damaging allegations against people if they the accusations won't stand up in court?


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    #1428
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    robindch wrote: »
    From the memo:Hope this helps.
    Not really. It was "prudent" because they thought they would likely lose. I knew this. I was saying as much when everyone else was getting hysterical.


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    #1429
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    You don't have freedom to defame. If RTE believed the accusation could stand up as truthful in court then there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't have tried to defend it.


    Do you honestly think that you should be able to make such ugly and damaging allegations against people if they the accusations won't stand up in court?

    Yes, there are. Numerous posters are at pains to try and get you to understand that.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1430
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    SW wrote: »
    Yes, there are. Numerous posters are at pains to try and get you to understand that.

    At this point one has to assume BB is trolling.


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    #1431
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Jernal wrote: »
    Islam isn't a race or gender; it's an idea. No idea deserves absolute protection. Everybody has a right to their opinion and to express that opinion but they do not have the right to be free from criticism. Especially if they wish to use those ideals to dictate public policy.
    Do you think the Christian woman who I linked to from the Middle East who was beaten by the white US man as he shouted "****in Muslim bitch" over and over again cared if Islam was a belief or not?


    Prejudice, hate and discrimination is wrong no matter who it is against. People here who argue for banning Islamic veils because they are an affront to "our" culture are no better than Iona being against homsexuality as an affront to our culture.


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    #1432
    AerynSun
    Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭AerynSun


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    If RTE believed the accusation could stand up as truthful in court then there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't have tried to defend it.

    BB, have you actually been reading this thread? I mean really reading what other people have written? Because I'm at a loss to understand how you don't understand the many points that have been well made and eloquently expressed, with all due respect and willingness to engage in dialogue.

    While I'm all for 'staying engaged' with the dialogue, in the hope of all of us understanding each other better... I despair of a circular 'discussion' that keeps revolving around your unflinching position. Do you want to understand other people's points of view? Or do you just want other people to accept your points? For myself, I've gotten to a place of thinking it's not really much use trying to have a conversation with you. You will notice that I have 'gone quiet' on you (or maybe you won't have noticed). So I'm just putting this out there: to me it feels like you're not listening.


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    #1433
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    You don't have freedom to defame. If RTE believed the accusation could stand up as truthful in court then there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't have tried to defend it.


    Do you honestly think that you should be able to make such ugly and damaging allegations against people if they the accusations won't stand up in court?
    But it's been explained to you that just because someone is unwilling to defend the statement in court it does not mean that the statement wouldn't stand up in court.

    Even if the statement was 100% accurate it's no guarantee that it will convince a jury so there is always a risk. More so when there are multiple complainants.
    And even then the costs of such cases could well exceed the amount paid out in a settlement.
    The safest option is to not contest it.

    So first your assertion that they wouldn't stand up in court therefore aren't true, fails.

    Secondly you are forgetting that you've been shown many examples of the accused parties expressing opinions and stances you agree are homophobic.
    And when asked to provide a single argument they use that is not homophobic, you need to invent a ridiculous non-applicable one that was still homophobic.

    Had this happened with the word "islamophobic" you would be crying conspiracy and defending peoples rights to make such ugly and damaging allegations.


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    #1434
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    You don't have freedom to defame. If RTE believed the accusation could stand up as truthful in court then there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't have tried to defend it.


    Do you honestly think that you should be able to make such ugly and damaging allegations against people if they the accusations won't stand up in court?

    Well, its at the stage I don't even know if I want to live here anymore.
    The US may have many problems but it does genuinely have freedom of speech.

    You think you're living in a liberal democracy, but your not.

    RTE settled a case to make it 'go away' without running up a huge legal bill.
    We have no idea if it would stand up in court.

    Ireland has inherited and constructed a system of libel law that makes defending a case so expensive that even a large broadcaster like RTE isn't able to justify the costs.

    Where does that leave an individual?

    It seems like a major human rights issue to me.


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    #1435
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,851 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Well, its at the stage I don't even know if I want to live here anymore.
    The US may have many problems but it does genuinely have freedom of speech.

    You think you're living in a liberal democracy, but your not.

    RTE settled a case to make it 'go away'.
    We have no idea if it would stand up in court.

    Ireland has inherited and constructed a system of libel law that makes defending a case so expensive that even a large broadcaster like RTE isn't able to justify the costs.

    Where does that leave an individual?

    It seems like a major human rights issue to me.

    I'd hate to live in a society that allows Westboro Baptist Church spew it's bile tbh

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1436
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    mango salsa wrote: »
    I'd hate to live in a society that allows Westboro Baptist Church spew it's bile tbh

    Ehhhh....

    The US is a bit too far the other way, but... A freedom enshrined in the law to self expression should be a goal of the Irish people.

    For the record there's lots of things you can't say in the US and lots of places you can't say certain things. So there are limits.


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    #1437
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I think for those of us who believe in freedom of speech, freedom of conscience and seperation of church and state, we need to support her too.

    The place to start is with RTE and The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland.
    I am actively perusing my complaint with the BAI.
    I would hope that everyone else who cares about this is also doing the same.
    To quote Mr. Edmund Burke: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
    Iona is without doubt, evil, with money behind it.
    JW is nothing more than a plank.


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    #1438
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Brown Bomber, you never did answer my questions, so here it is again

    Do you think these people in the photos below are racist?
    Do you think its racist to be against mixed race marriages and mixed race education?

    Little_Rock_integration_protest.jpg

    Montgomery_Ala_Protest_1961.jpg


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    #1439
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    The place to start is with RTE and The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland.
    I am actively perusing my complaint with the BAI.
    I would hope that everyone else who cares about this is also doing the same.
    To quote Mr. Edmund Burke: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
    Iona is without doubt, evil, with money behind it.
    JW is nothing more than a plank.

    What are you doing exactly?


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    #1440
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Brown Bomber, you never did answer my questions, so here it is again

    Do you think these people in the photos below are racist?
    Do you think its racist to be against mixed race marriages and mixed race education?

    Little_Rock_integration_protest.jpg

    Montgomery_Ala_Protest_1961.jpg

    Did BB not answer that here?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1441
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    What are you doing exactly?

    You must first complain to RTE with regards to the withdrawal of Rory's comments on the player.

    When they respond (unsatisfactorily), you send a complaint to the BAI (including a copy of the e-mail that RTE sent you) stating the code of conduct that RTE has breached.

    They will send you a complaint form which you must fill out.

    I believe the following code was broken:

    2. Principles Underpinning the Fairness, Objectivity and Impartiality Rules.

    To be exact:

    Rule 4.1 and 4.2 cover the general requirement to be fair, objective and impartial


    I sent that to them yesterday and am waiting for a reply.

    /Edit.

    Here are the e-mails again for anyone who wishes to do the same:


    complaints@rte.ie
    complaints@bai.ie (broadcasting authority)


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